I believe there is a mistake in the Jan 2006 issue of Armchair General. The answer to question 6 on the Military Mastermind shows the American Troops leaving Vietnam in 1972. Shouldn’t the answer be B., 1973?
I throughly enjoy your magazine. Keep up the good work!
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Steven,
Thanks for taking the time to ask this!
The question asked when the last US ground combat troops left Vietnam. We gave the correct answer, ie 1972. The last American combat unit was a task force from the 3d Bn, 21st Inf Regt and battery B, 3d Bn, 82d Field Artillery Regt which had been stationed in Danang (I commanded battery C, 3d Bn, 82d FA and B btry was our ‘sister’ battalion). These were the last US ground combat units in Vietnam and I was there when they left in August of 1972. As a matter of fact, when my unit disbanded in June 1972, we sent B Btry about 15 of our guys who stayed with B Btry until it left in August. Of note: these C btry guys took along a US flag that had flown over my firebase and put it up over the B Btry firebase where it flew until the task force departed in Aug 72. Therefore, the last American flag to fly over a US firebase in Vietnam was mine.  Some American troops (no combat troops) were still in Vietnam until they left in 1973.  Thanks again for the question.
The “Gary Owen Task Force”, a brigade of the 1st Cavalry was still in country near Saigon as a combat infantry unit in August of 1972. Probably left about the same time that month as the 82d FA elements up north.
I was also with Co A and Co D, 1/7 in 1971 and thenworked with the Blue Teams of the 229th during the Easter Offensive of 1972, mostly over An Loc, destroying downed aircraft and picking up pilots. The Garry Owen stand down was late June of 1972.
We stopped all active patrol missions within about a month or so of that. We closed down firebase Spudis sometime around July 15th or so right after my friend Robert D. Hamilton was killed on July 4th. It was the last active 1/7 firebase (after Grunt II and Crossed Sabers).
Ricardo, you say that you were with a mortar section March – May 1973? Can you tell me what unit and where you were located? I’m very interested in this because I am writing a book (my 2nd about Vietnam) about the last year of America’s involvement there: March 1972 until March 29, 1973.
It appears, from the Order of Battle published by the VHPA, that ALL of the Air Cav Troops in Vietnam were stood down February 1973.
It is not true that all of US combat troops were out of Vietnam by 1972.
IF it was said all of the “ground” troops were out of Vietnam by 1972, that would have been closer to being correct BUT for the fact that each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry Platoon assigned.
I’ve been reading this thread with great interest. I’m working on a 2n book about Vietnam which will be set during the last year of the U.S. phase of Indochina, March 1972 to 29 March, 1973.
Among my reference works I rely heavily on Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle. According to Stanton you left RVN along with the rest of the 196th LIB on 29 June, 1972. B Battery’s assets, while it may have appeared to you to have gone to your sister battery, C / 3 / 82 FA, actually went to a newly formed Provisional Battery G / 29th FA, which was the successor to C Battery. It was that G Battery that formed a task force with 3rd Battalion / 21st Infantry, which you mention.
All that said it appears to me that any confusion as far as last combat unit in Vietnam is really a matter of “combat unit” vs. “ground combat unit.” Stanton calls the 3 / 21 Infantry (without mention to a task force) the “last U.S. Army ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam: 23 August, 1972. Under the entry for G / 29 FA he states that the battery departed Vietnam in September 1972 with no further explanation.
All that said, I’m still left searching for the last ground combat ( including aero-rifle platoons) unit, regardless of size, to turn out the lights in Vietnam.
Best to all,
Richard Vidaurri
Americal / later 196th LIB
1970-1972
Author of The Gates of the Shadow, the unlikely story of America’s last battle tank in Vietnam.
I was in Bien Hoa up until August 1st 1972 attached to the Garry Owen Task Force during the rocket attack that morning. I was sitting in the radar tower and at about 5AM when the rockets started coming in. We triangulated the position from the radar towers and dropped a bunch of artillery on them. Later that day, I was taken to the air base in Siagon for processing out of country. I left VietNam on August 5th 1972. I also served at FireBase Melanie from February through mid June of 1972. I was on the last chopper out of Melanie with the colonel when we turned it over to the ARVN.
To Mike Evenson, If you could please email me at matthew.prochaska@gmail.com. The reason being that I might have a item that you lost after you came back to the US in late 1972
I have looked and looked for those who were with Task Force Garry Owen. I was with 1st Brigride HHC and stood in the stand down cermorny @ Bien Hoe in June 1972. For those that were there remember one of the honor guards that passed out and fell forward and landed on his steel pot that fell off just before. After that there weren’t many of us left. I remember selling refigritors to the Marines that were bought in to protect our rear as we left. What a joke that was as most were new in country and we all know about newbe’s. Thanks to all the Skytroopers out there and we will all fly again together some day!
I remember somebody falling down. But what I really remember about that ceremony was a loach pilot getting an award for pulling out something like 11 ARVNs or Vietnamese civilians at one time, most of them, of course, hanging on the skids. I’m not sure but he may ahve made two different trips doing the same thing. I think their compound was overrun during the Easter Offensive.
For the last couple of days I’ve been involved in research regarding combat units in Vietnam during the last year of the American phase of the war. Several of you have given me your time and memories so that I now have a pretty clear understanding of the matter.I might add here that there is precious little published material on that last lonely American year of March 1972 through the end of March, 1973.
In the final analysis I can say that after Task Force Gary Owen departed on 22 August, 1972 there were no longer American ground combat units anywhere in Vietnam. That is not to say, however, there were no ground combat soldiers still in-country . Rifle security companies, Special Forces soldiers attached to MACV or CIA, MACV advisers, these all soldiered on until the end.
So, I was about to close out this part of my search out when I stumbled onto something intriguing: something called the Infantry Security Force (Special Guard). The only information in Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle is that this was a battalion-sized force under the direct control of MACV and later (later? later when? later how?) the Department of the Army, that it served in multiple locations, was composed of specially chosen soldiers, and was a TDA organization. The unit served in Vietnam from March 1965 until March 1973.
I have hunted all through my reference library, the Internet, old friends… and NADA. Can anyone give my any information on these folks?
Also as an interesting observation I’ve gotten the overwhelming impression that unless a soldier who served that last year had done a previous tour in Vietnam, he had no idea what the war was like in the earlier years – no clue whatsoever. But I cannot be certain of this until I hear from if reading about the experiences of the earlier Vietnam soldiers leaves you with the same impression of remoteness that reading your stories leaves in me.
I also want to say that like every soldier who served in Vietnam I have the greatest admiration for the air crews. But the challenges and the raw courage of the men who flew in Vietnam at the end are remarkable even among that already remarkable group.
What about air or support units? What US personnel were permitted per
the 1973 agreement? How were advisors or technical support organized
and how did they leave, right to the end in 1975?
your right some were there till 1977, read your naval historical foundation it will tell you some were there till 1978 ,someone had to clean up the mess
Dennis, are you sure of what you are saying? You of course realize that the NVA came down and deactivated all of South Vietnam in April 1975. That action alone would lead one to believe that there were no American servicemen or civilian government employees in Vietnam after that time.
Hey! Hold up there. You are refering to artillery units as being the last combat troops to leave Viet Nam. A FACT is that C Troop 10th Aero Cavalry left Viet Nam in February 1973. I don’t know if they were the absolute last unit, and I don’t want to quible about who is combat and whom are not, but I will suggest that anyone who was medivaced out of, or extracted whole from, a hot LZ would probable not doubt that helicopter crews were in fact , combat troops
Sincerly,
Rick Reavill, UH-1H Crew Chief, 176th Assault Helicopter Co 69/70, A Conpany, 158th Assault Helicopter BN, 101st Airborne, 71
Rick, this is an entry from Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby L. Stanton:
Troop H, 10th Air Cavalry, departed Vietnam 26 February 1973, was an air cavalry troop raised from the assets of Troop C, 7th Squandron, 17th Cavarly. Troop H served with the 17th Aviation Group at An while in Vietnam.
The 1st Aviation Company, 1st Brigade, 1 Calvary, 12th Combat Aviation Group, F Troop 8th Cavalry was there until at least Feb 1973.
During the Easter Offensive 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry was attached to the 11th Combat Aviation Group from June 1972 to October 1972.
The U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group’s activities were closely coordinated with those of the ARVN units. This group provided essintial support with troop lift logistical support, gunships and medevacs.
F Troop, 8th Cav was there in Quang Tri, the day the Easter Offensive started. The movie ‘Bat 21′ portrays the the time as during the ‘Tet Offensive’ …this is totally incorrect. It took place and began March 29-30, 1972 in Quang Tri. The book is much better than the movie too….and it’s all true. Men of F Troop, 8th Cav gave their all and some – their lives – in the largest search and rescue ever.
Some of the F Troop, 8th Cav were kids and probably still don’t know to this day that they fought in the probably the biggest and bloodiest battle ever.
Because of the intensity of the war, most of the F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG files are not available. The service of many from F Troop are not documented.
Fran, it isn’t my intention to sound argumentative. I do have to question, however, your comments that “… because of the intensity of the war F Troop, 8th Cavalry, 12th CAG files are not available…” Then “The service of many from F Troop were not documented”
I’m not sure what that means. I have had a hell of a time getting even anecdotal evidence from that last year but I believe that’s mainly because in many American minds the war was over by mid – 1972. I have indeed only been able to find ONE non-fiction book about that period: America’s Last Vietnam Battle (Dale Andrade) and that’s only the Easter Offensive.
All that said, I cannot see why intensity should equal shoddy record-keeping. That hasn’t been the case in any other American war.
The last Air Cavalry Troops left Vietnam in 1973. They are the last U S Army conventional COMBAT forces to leave Vietnam. And, technically speaking, since each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry platoon that could be employed to fight “on the ground’ you could argue that the last conventional U S GROUND forces left Vietnam in 1973.
I was the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group from Oct ’72 to Feb ’73 and can verify this information.
Major John P. Kennedy, served 10 November 1972 to 28 January 1973 under Lt. Colonel Stanley D. Cass, 11th CAG.
No need to verify, I have the 11th CAGs After Action Report in front of me, detailing the 11th CAGs methodical consolidation down to the 62nd Aviation Company + FPJMC and ICCS Detachments, colors to USAEUR on 16 March, and finally turning out the lights on 28 March.
I am, however, happy that you responded, Major Kennedy, as the same After Action makes note that during the “pre-stand-down phase,” November 1972, a security force was formed from the Blues, the ground component of the aerorifle platoon. As they are again mentioned at the end of the report it is apparent that they stayed until the end, 28 March 1973.
Despite what Fran proclaims I’m not without a clue nor am I trying to make a point. I also agree that any combat soldiers, assigned to any unit in Vietnam should be classified as “ground combat troops.” I’m doing research for a book, my 2nd book on Vietnam, set during the last year of the American phase, 72-73, and information is hard to come by.
Now, as long as I have you on the line, Major: Is the After Action Report correct as to those Blues? And, after forming up into a security force did they ever again go on operations, SAR, anywhere outside the wire?
Thank you for responding to my post, I greatly appreciate any information that you can provide.
Richard Vidaurri
Specialist – 5 Vidaurri
Americal Division, then 196th LIB
1970-72
The massive stand down of American forces in 1972 and the subsequent reassignment of units to other headquarters resulted in some pretty shoddy records keeping. In June of 1972 I personally submitted a recommendation for the Medal of Honor for Lt. James P. McQuade. A year later I found out that it had been “lost”. There are many more examples of a lessor magnitude than this but it is indicative of what went on at that time.
F/8 went from the 196th Light Infantry Brigade to the 11th CAG to the 12th CAG in less than a year’s time.
My last assignment in Vietnam was as the OIC of the Region I Four Party Joint Military Commission Aviation Detachment stationed at Danang AFB. I left Vietnam from Bien Hoa on MArch 30, 1973.
Air cavalry units with the primary mission of supporting South Vietnamese Army forces were the only active Army combat units in Vietnam throughout 1972. Both the 11th CAG and the 12th CAG, (Combat Aviation Group), were there until at least Feb. 1973.
Many of these men fought, supplied logistical lift and provided medevacs in support of the ARVN troops in the biggest battle of Vietnam, ‘The Easter Offensive’ or ‘The Spring Offensive’.
‘The Easter Offensive’ began and ended in “The Second Battle of Quang Tri’. Some of these men died there.
March 29-30 1972 at Quang Tri, was the first time that SAMs and regular AAA weapons were used. The NVA introduced the Soviet-built SA-7 (Strella) heat-seeking, shoulder-fired missile, for use against low and slow-flying Allied aircraft. It was deadly, and numerous Allied aircraft losses were attributed to the weapon.
Until USAF fire power could be transported back from Saigon, (sent there from the ‘drawdown’), 1st Calvary, Combat Aviation Groups held down the fort with help from the Marines that where still there. There were still some Navy offshore that helped too later with firepower. The Army of the Republic of Vietnam, backed by the United States Army, shelled more than 80,000 tons of ordnance, the destructive capacity equivalent to almost six Hiroshima-size atomic bombs.
When the massive firepower was first unleashed, unsuspecting NVA soldiers reporting for duty were in the city at the time and Quang Tri was referred to as ‘Hamburger City’ by some that saw the aftermath.
As well, leading out of the city was still ‘The Highway of Horrors’ from when
South Vietnam had earlier lost its Quang Tri Province on May 1st, 1972 and the NVA cut down masses of panic civilians, war refugees, who were fleeing the city and got stuck at Truong Phuoc Bridge because of the traffic jam after an enemy artillery shell heavily damaged the bridge. Chaos occurred when enemy artillery began a rain of many hundreds shells from their 130mm guns on the refugees. A moment later, Communist foot soldiers attacked the crowd with infantry weapons that included mortars and grenade launchers.
When ‘The Second Battle of Quang Tri’ was over, (Sept. 16, 1972 the city was taken back. On Oct. 22, 1972 Quang Tri Province firebases were secured), not one building remained standing. The intense bombing, combined with U.S. use of the Agent Orange defoliant, turned the land into a virtual moonscape.
This all took place during ‘Operation Ceasefire’ when we were standing down and turning over the bases to the ARVN.
Americans still have little knowledge of this time in Vietnam and the part that brave American troops, including U.S. Army Air Calvary Combat Aviation Groups, took in it.
Richard-
No problem. The quote you mentioned that I wrote about records-keeping is from a notarized letter of a Colonel, U.S. Army, Air – Retired. He was my husband’s commander in Vietnam.
The reason records-keeping was chaotic at best was because almost everyone was redeployed back home and out of Vietnam at that time, including HQ. A skeleton crew of junior administration was left behind and later as Communications was handed over to the ARVN, communications between the Admin left behind and HQ, (which already left) was even harder to maintain for instructions to be given. (Here I am parapharsing excerpts of Command History and After Action Reports.)
The other people left behind in Vietnam we’re busy fighting an intense war.
I am familiar of the bookand author you mentioned.
Yes, the story of US Army Aviation during this time of the war has been untold, still…. and basically unknown to Americans still. That is why I having been wanting to write such a book. If Mr. Andrade is interested in helping me write this book, he can contact me and I will talk with him.
Fran, I’m a writer but I don’t know Dale Andrade. The way to contact him is to go on Amazon, find his book, and then send him an e-mail via his publisher.
Richard-
Also in answer to your question…
After F/8 was transferred from 11th CAG to 12th CAG and they moved down to Bien Hoa… At Ceasefire, everyone was trying to roll up and get out quickly. There was a mass accumalation of paperwork. It was very difficult for the skeleton crew of junior admin to know exactly what to do with it. Because of the problems in communications after Communications was handed over to the ARVN, a lot of paperwork was taken to Tan Son Nuht and burnt.
That’s what I made out of reading Command Histories and After Action Reports. When I have more time, I will post, word for word, the exact words and sources for you.
F-R-A-N!!! Please do not go to anymore trouble to unearth quotes and sources. Now, you’ve gone and made me feel like a sap who’s been questioning a nice lady’s credibility.
An excerpt from the very well researched and written literature:
READJUSTNMENT PROBLEMS AMONG VIETNAM VETERANS
The etiology of Combat-Related Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders
By Jim Goodwin, Psy. D.
Published by Disabled American Veterans
Page 6-7
“For both World War II and the Korean War, the incidence of neuropsychiatry disorder among combatants increased as the intensity of the wars increase. As these wars wore down, there was a corresponding decrease in these disorders until the incidence closely resembled their particular prewar periods.â€
However, the Vietnam experience proved different. As the war in Vietnam progressed in intensity, there was no corresponding increase in neuropsychiatry causalities among combatants. It was not until the early 1970’s, when the war was winding down, that neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase. With the end of direct American troop involvement in Vietnam in 1973, the number of veterans presenting neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase tremendously (President Commission on mental Health, 1978).”
Richard – eek, the quote you quoted was not the commander’s. (My mistake… being busy and texting.)
The commander did say however, “Due to the intensity of the war, records-keeping was chaotic at best.”
You were not being aurgumentive. It was a good question.
(I do know that on one my post that I wrote years ago on the Easter Offensive; not everything I wrote was perfect and I need to make some minor but important corrections.)
I am not sure the last troops came out in 72-73 I was a member of the 5th special forces group was reasigned to the (MACV SOG)/ CCN and as a member of this elit special observation group I was not out until around late 74-earily 75 can you shed some light on this please as i was very young and it was a long time ago i want to be sure i am right. thank you please reply to my e-mail address with any information
I served with my brother for six or seven months in 1972 at
Marble mt compound, DaNang. We were with the 11th CAG.
I WAS WITH HEADQUARTERS AND HE WAS WITH THE 282 THEN THE 48TH. His name was Morris. Did any other brothers serve together in vietnam at the same place and time?
Thank you General Truong for giving credit to the Americans that were there assisting the ARVN in the Battles of Quang Tri during the Easter Offensive until the very end and calling them by name. It means so much to me – especially since it has been the only reference that I have found on the Internet doing so.
Our own American military have given them no public credit whatsoever, these troops that stayed and fought and served long after the all of the ground troops went home in August 1972.
But you gave them credit where credit was due. Thank you.
May you rest in peace.
Ngo, Lieutenant General Quang Truong, The Easter offensive of 1972. Washington DC: U.S. Army Center of Military History, 1980.
“In addition to support provided the U.S. Air Force, I Corps forces also received much assistance from the U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group whose activities were closely coordinated with those of ARVN units. This group provided essential support with troop lift logistical support and gunships.â€
Statement byJerry Morelock, Armchair General, Senior Historian
“Some American troops (no combat troops) were still in Vietnam until they left in 1973.”
You are wrong. Aviation COMBAT Groups (CAGs) were there at least until March 24, 1973 that I know of personally.
May I suggest you read a few After Action Reports or Command Histories? Something? If you do, you will see that I am correct.
Combat Aviation Groups in Vietnam were COMBAT TROOPS in EVERY sense of the word and the few left behind were fighting HARD and NON-STOP after everybody else went home until ceasefire. It was very dangerous after ceasefire as well.
Please help honor our veterans by correctly recognizing them and their sacrifices, especially as a senior historian.
According to the After Action report of the 11th CAG:
Elements of F Troop / 4th Cavalry engaged targets along the Song Tra River (Danang) on 28 January 1973. They recorded 30 KBH (killed by helicopter) in an action that ended at 0755.
The Cease Fire was effective at 08000 that morning.
So you are correct that combat troops were in Vietnam until the end, indeed the very end, 28 March 1973. Although they were no longer actively engaged in combat after the Cease Fire they were in country supporting the Four Powers Joint Military Command, and the International Commission for Control and Supervision, and indeed received hostile fire during some of those missions.
But Morelock’s post was referring to ground combat soldiers and in that he is correct – sort of – because although the last ground combat battalion left Vietnam in August 1972 there were odds-and-ends in-country until the end, and perhaps even after that.
Richard – “Odds and Ends” ?????
That makes my blood boil.
I am looking and looking for the After Action Reports from April 1972 to October 1972. I cannot find them.
11th CAG was involved upfront in the rest of the Easter Offensive that started back up June 28th, 1972.
It was not “Odds and Ends” dammit!
I know guys who were personally there including the commander who led them into battle.
“Odds and Ends”?
That is extreme disrespect to their
service and sacrifices.
You and most of America, including
Jerry Morelock and Dale Andrade have no clue.
After Action Reports… ORLLs… anything to do with that time… I cannot find online for the time period, April 1972 to October 1972. I know where to look… but I have been so busy fighting the VA because they told my husband that they did not know that there were any combat troops in Vietnam after APRIL 1972… and called him a liar. We are almost done with dealing with the VA, I hope… and I know that a book needs to written about the US Army Aviation for the time that we are discussing… but I really want to spend time with my family after the grueling fight with the VA… but it needs to be written and done RIGHT. It was NOT “odds and ends”. It was an all out war.
Fran… relax and re-read my post, specifically the last paragraph where I mention “odds and ends.” I was clearly referring to GROUND COMBAT troops, and what I meant was this: after Task Force Gary Owen stood down on 22 August, 1972 and 3rd battalion , 21st Infantry stood down one day later (thereby making it the last ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam) there were no longer any ground combat formations in Vietnam. As far as I can tell from the after action reports of the 11th and 12 the CAGs even the Aerorifle platoons (Blues) were given base defense missions.
It’s obvious that you have some very deep personal associations with the subject that are making you touchy in the extreme. Morelock and I are Vietnam Veterans. I served 18 months with the Americal Division and later the 196th Light Infantry Brigade. I’m a 100% service-connected disabled veteran, thus it’s absurd to say that that Morelock or I would dishonor anyone else who served in Vietnam.
Richard – you just don’t get it. Base Defense Missions was a part of what was going on. These guys were part of snd participated (in many ways since almost everyone was gone), in the largest enemy offensive in the entire war. I say this in complete confidence and with proof.
Yes I know about the Tet Offensive. This really is a part of the Vietnam War that needs to be better known…. And of the men who were there and fought in it.
I was flying with F Troop, 9th Cav, 12th CAG out of Bien Hoa up until February 1973. It is true many of the ‘records’ seem to be missing. I was told that what records do exist are stashed away in the DC area in a warehouse. To make my point about records. After I returned to the world and assigned to Ft. Bragg (no comment), I was awarded a DFC in a quiet ceremony in the battalion commander’s office. There is NO record of me being awarded the DFC in the records.
John Lane,
‘Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed ‘Gopher’.
‘Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed ‘Gopher’.
I remember when F/8 showed up, presumably to give us a hand taking care of III Corp. I was a 67V2T (OH-58), but was a Scout in F/9 flying OH6A’s. We did not have a tow bird with us, in fact only you guy’s had a minigun mounted loach, which as I recall you lost due to a command detonated claymore in some trees. I know there was at least one tow bird owned by someone because I got called in to an area where they were operating and could not hit the target because of the trees…this was 12 November 1972, a day I will never forget. We tried not to pay much attention to F8 except when you guys would lob a 40mm CS round across the motor pool at us. Retaliation was such fun…LOL.
I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?
Same question to Jim Lawrence…??
That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry (sister troops) were both conducting combat operations in Military Region I until October 1972. I do know that the F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) served until October 1972 from Chu Lai to Quang Tri to Hue, Phu-Bai to the Que Son to Mo Duc and Duc Pho, establishing themselves as the premier air cav troop in Vietnam. They served as the aviation “fire brigade”, called upon time and again to conduct operations in the areas of greatest enemy threat.
The versatility of F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) was demonstrated repeatedly through it’s ability to conduct short-notice unit moves with no loss of operational efficiency. Deploying from Marble Mountain to Da Nang Main in late August 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry detached two cav teams to Chu Lai on September 15, 1972 to suppress a serious enemy offensive in the Mo Duc-Duc Pho area. They stayed in Military Region I until the end of the Easter Offensive and all threat of any enemy offensive was suppressed.
On October 15, 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry received orders to redeploy to Bien Hoa, in Military Region III. (F Troop, 9th Cavalry worked closely with F Troop, 8th Cavalry and I am sure they moved to Bien Hoa at the same time.) Seventy-two hours later, F Troop, 8th Cavalry teams were conducting combat operations against an enemy build-up in the Saigon-Bien Hoa area. From Xuan Loc to Tan An to Lai Khe to Tay Ninh, the specter of the Blue Ghost covered Military Region III like the monsoon rain.
APPENDIX 2 (12th Combat Aviation Group) to ANNEX B to USARV/MACVV SUPCOM After Action Report
“Purpose: To report significant activities and planning involved in the stand down of the 12th Aviation Group during the period 1 November 1972 through March 1973.”
“The combined average monthly flying hours of the two air cavalry units, (F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry), flown while accomplishing their primary mission, exceeded all other air cavalry averages in Vietnam.”
“The aircraft loss rate was the lowest in Vietnam even though the combat activity in MR III had increased sharply.”
So, I don’t believe that either F Troop, 8th Cavalry nor F Troop, 9th Cavalry were involved in the September 1972 event that you have explained…. but I would not count them out. There were a few other air cavalry units in Vietnam then… some pulling out at that time.
Very few air cavalry remained until the Ceasefire and beyond, (a VERY dangerous time to be in Vietnam as well.)
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry were two who remained until Ceasefire and some troopers stayed even longer, until March 1973.
What is so frustrating is that even books and references that have ‘authority’ have so much information wrong about units and our brave troopers who served in COMBAT after “all the combat troops came home” in 1972.
(Note: The 1st Cavalry (Airmobile), all of them, were noted to fly into any situation, no matter how dangerous and intense to provide medevacs and assistance to troopers on the ground.)
“I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?”
I have done more inquiring and have found that:
Yes, F/9 Cav was in III Corps-Third Regional Assistance Command (TRAC) at that time.
Which supports what Dave Wallace said:
“That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them.” – Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
Asana… D Troop, 3rd Squadron, was the 5th Cavalry’s only air cavalry troop. They departed Vietnam along with the rest of 3rd Squadron on 8 November, 1971.
I would like you to contact me if possible. I was with Ftrp for a short time. We were hooched up with the Browns if I am not mistaken. I cant remember how we wound up getting assigned to Long Bien and what the unit designation was there. I was medivaced in mid august.
I’m a student in High school studying Vietnam, and I think everybody is partly right. Yes, there were SOG/MACV units in Vietnam well after August 1972, and also several air units, and infantry units. But, correct me if I’m wrong, the last MAJOR and WELL KNOWN pullout of troops was in August, 1972, I believe.
Task Force Garry Owen stood down on June 26, 1972. However, that was the “official” date. I know. I was in that ceremony.
There were some additional infantry combat patrols that went on after that but none that I am aware of follwoing the closure of FSB Spudis, which was just outside of Bien Hoa. That closure was about mid-to late July 1972.
We did a police call of the firebase while the Vietnamese congregated outside the berm. We our last vehicle pulled out, the Vietnamese came in and dumped all of the 55 gallon drums and started foraging.
I have no knowlege of any active, offensive infantry GROUND combat missions following that, although there may have been some. I am aware of defensive security operations around the major bases and both fixed and rotary wing missions.
I was with Bravo 1st 12th and then Bravo 1st 7th. I was in the Blues after that. Bunker Hill and Grunt II were the two firebases I spent most of my time at. We spent some time at Long Than north (I am not sure if that is the right spelling) Thing changes so often for the short period of time I was there. I was medivaced with mixed malaria August 15 of 72. I had been sent to the reaction force at Long Bien. I have seen several posts regarding Spudis but for the life of me cant place it. I was on the security force when we closed down a small firebase i thought was named Mars but not sure if that was the right name. It was pretty small. It seems like for the last month or two i was there no one really knew what was going on.
Larry Overstocker: You asked about Firebase Spudis. Before that it was Firebase Fiddler’s Green and occupied by the 11th ACR. I have pictures of the 11trh ACR moving out and also a picture of the sign at the base that had Spudis’ history on it.
If it means something to you, send me your email address and I will forward the pciture to you.
I am not sure I know or remember anything about Spudis. I did operate out of Bunker Hill and Grunt II. I pulled security while a small firebase was torn down. I thought the name was Mars but maybe I didnt have the name right. When the 7th stood down I was transferred to Ftrp 9th at Fort Courage Bien Hoa. I was at Bien Hoa 1 aug 72 when the airbase got rocketed. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I could see them coming up from the ville. I had four months in country and was the senior man on that section of the berm. I was medivaced mid august with mixed malaria. Email is unclelar52@yahoo.com
I flew Air Cav (H Troop 10th Cavalry) all the way through 1972 until five minutes before the cease fire which I believe was Jan 27 1973. we were flying out of Phan Thiet at the time TDY from Lane AHP.
We lost SGT Robert Lee Frankes the next to last day of the war to enemy ground fire.
All of us need to back off and give credit to the people who remained in country while everyone else went home. The troops that stayed behind were in as much danger as anyone else we all did our duty and were proud of our service no matter where we served.
The last combat troops of the United States were pulled out of South Vietnam on 29 March 1973. 8,500 American civilians, embassy guards, and defense office soldiers remained in Saigon. The largest helicopter evacuation in history occured on 29 April 1975 when 7,000 Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from the US Embassy in Saigon. Saigon fell the following day to the North Vietnamese troops.
Thanks for that. My father was part of the 1975 evac, although I was told it was April 30th by the time he was actually out of Vietnam. I’ve never been able to get any answers about what he was doing at the time. All I know is he was in 3rd group and was supposed to come home but he pulled some strings to get assigned TDY so he could stay there. I’ve tried on and off for years to learn about those last few years but so much has been redacted.
I know I am a late-comer to this thread but since I came across it by accident, I wanted to add a bit of info. I was assigned TDY to RTAF Takh Li in Thailand with the various iterations of aircraft. Even though US Air Units were activated and deactivated/moved in theater and out of theater, there were always support units flying missions out of Thailand. My aircraft was F-111′s. Even though the peace accords were signed, we still flew unacknowledged flights into the DMZ for purposes of recovery/demolition of classified aircraft electronic equipment. The last time, in August of 1974, the chopper I was in took a direct hit while we were preparing to land. Casualties were heavy but the guys from 11th Combat Aviation Group were the ones who got us survivors out. Helluva great pilot and braver guys I can say I never knew. I owed my 20 year old rear end to them. I’m sorry that it took all these years for me to recognize them for what they did. The government wouldn’t acknowledge the flights. To all who served in the army, and saved us Air Force guys…thanks and God Bless.
Thanks for the reply Jack…My memory has gotten fuzzy with age..I may be mistaken about the CAG but they were defintely Army and if I remember right, the patch was an eagle with either lightning bolts or arrows(blue?)….anyway wanted an opportunity to say thanks after all these years. God Bless.
i was with eco. 14th inf.,long binh ammo dump from june to nov. 1972.does anyone rember aug.13 72 when 11 vc sappers hit the ammo dump. i was the one that sat out there all day while the bunkers were cooking off as an f/o. stood down nov. 72, wound up in pleiku with h trp.17yh air cav.. was with inf. plt. for a short while. then sent across the airstrip to the nung compound where i finished the rest of my tour. stood down march of 73
I was at Long Bien when the ammo dump went up. I thought it was August 7th though. I was at Bien Hoa on August 1 when they hit the air base. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I was medivaced to 3rd fld hosp Saigon I thought the 13th or14th and was medivaced stateside with mixed malaria. I served with 1st 12th, 1st 7th (Task Force Gary Owen) Ftrp 9th and dont remember what the last unit at Long Bien was just it was hhc of a combat aviation unit as reaction force.
Hi
Do you remember when the ammo dump blew on Fire Base Fiddlers Green later call Fire Base Spudus? The base was just out side the green line of Bein Hoa. I think it was the spring of 72 or early summer?
I’d really would like to know the dates if someone can remember.
can’t r. s.
fred
I have some dates for October through January of rocket attacks and mortar attacks at Bien Hoa.
October 26, 1972 – The military command in Saigon reports that Communist forces have initiated the largest number of assaults throughout the country of any 24-hour period since the 1968 Tet Offensive.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Two, Page 35
Bien Hoa was attacked by indirect fire 17th &19th December 1972
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Page 127
On 16 December ARVN forces began an eight battalion operation in the Bien Hoa rocket belt, following rocket attacks on Bien Hoa Air Base. Five 122mm rockets were captured, and several minor contacts made near launch positions.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Three, Pages 107
The enemy used harassing rocket attacks on air installations during the period from October through January, striking DaNang, Tan Son Nhut, and Bien Hoa on several occasions….
I have a friend who was there then… I can ask him if one of those attacks were by the ammo dump when he was there… I seem to remember him saying so.
Look up the 1972-1973 Command History if you need more information about Bien Hoa in the Spring or Summer of 1972. I may be able to help you if you need the help… just ask.
Also… what was your troop/unit?
Look up their USARV/MACV SUPCOM After Action Reports. That will help you know where they were stationed and when. Their After Action Reports may also include additional reports of rocket and mortar attacks that the unit encountered.
Assigned to Task Forse Garry Owens Co E 1/7th. Left the green line Aug 13th and few home on the 15th. The last FSB for us was Grunt 2 a few clicks out of Bien Hoa. Our ammo dump went up to in late July or early Aug. Was on morning tower there when on Aug 1st the 122′s went over us and into the Airbase were the Marines were musted for payday in a hanger. Worked out of FSB Elderidge, Cross Sabers, Mase, Morter Hill, Bear Cat and Spudis when we took it over from the 11th ACR. T54′s with a click.
Went back in 06 and walked the old green line for the last time
Garry Owens MF’ers. Glad you we with us.
Phil Purdy
Evergreen Colorado
My memory is very shady of some things because they were changing so quick. Aug 1 1972 the first rocket of the attack on Bien Hoa airbase hit just in front of me on the green line between the ville and the base. Could actually see them coming from the ville. Had come to Bien Hoa from Grunt II. Had just helped close up Mars. Went to Ftrp 9th Cav Sabre Blues then to Long Bien. Left mid august and was hospitalized till early November with mixed malaria.My friends took care of me for a couple days until I could get medical attention. They took me to see a Frankenstein movie. Never forget thier care but names escape me. Bless them
Hello Fred. I can check on that at my reunion next month because several of my buddies were on that base when the dump blew. My thought is that it wans’t Spudis but a different one. I was on patrol in the field at the time. A firefighter was killed when it went up.
We ran into a bunker and got a KIA. When I sent back for a catering charge what I got was 10 sticks of C-4, which was sufficient to do the job.
My friend, Phil Purdy, Co E, 1/7 just posted above here and perhaps he is correct about which firebase it was.
@Fran….1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut..
I remember this particular rocket attack well. Got my ass blown off a conex by a delayed 122 which landed short of the flight line. Most of the rockets were walked up the runways on the Air Force side, the BIG voice blaring…like we did not know the rockets were already falling.
no, larry,it was aug.13th. i have commo reports from long binh h/q..i have been trying to find my unit records for over twenty years. just before the last of us pulled out in nov.,the 1st sgt. got myself and about for or five others out in front of the orderly room with a stack of papers in his hand. he said that we were put in for these awards and he didn,think we deserved them.he through them in the burn barrel. been trying to find the x/o lt. stenrum ,or anhbody i was with,or photos of that day when the sappers hit. it was 11sappers.
Fran
Thanks for the info it is a start. btw I was in the 3rd Brigade (Separate) 1st Cavalry Divison (Airmobile) Delta Company 1st Battalion (Airmobile) 7th Cavalry from December 1971 – June 1972
I was a 60 gunner- Had 2 missions on/with the Point Team also part time mailman I flew back to Bien Hoa to get the company mail at times. Also a 3rd Field Hospital Siagon patient for a few months and finishing my Army carreer with a 10 month hospital stay at Fitzsimmons Army hospital Denver Colorado.
Hey SGM Bob
The Company Comannder was Captain James Whittaker, the Command Srgt Major (E10) was Westmoreland youngest man with that rank in the army (39 yrs old) at that time. BTW I took a camera on a couple missions and have a pretty good photo album. I and willing to share the pic’s with those interested. Also I made about 6 to 8 copies of same pic’s for guys in my platoon in 1972. So if you have some of those pictures you know me.
Fred, I have to reply to my own post as this site doesn’t permit me to reply to you. I can’t recall the name of the A Co Commander right now but he was a good looking blond guy. I can’t say that I remember Whittaker. The Ban Co was LTC Hodges. I don’t know the CSM but you must have made a typo because there are no E-10s. He was 39 at the time, eh? I made SGM at 36.
The D Co Commander was Tony Witter. I have his email address. The C Co Commander lives in Colorado and ran for US Congress the alst rlection cycle but didn’t win.
If anyone has some dates or names please contact me. When 1st of the 12th left and we were combined into 1st of the 7th (Task Force Garry Owen) things started to get very confusing. I remember on log day in the bush one trooper got a newspaper clipping from his mom that said there were no more combat troops in the field. The nearby artillery strike must have been a figment of our imagination. Places I was are Bunker Hill, Grunt II, Mars, Bien Hoa, Long Bien.
My parents saw me on the evening news getting on a UH-1 going to the field from Crossed Sabers AFTER it was reported there were no more combat troops going out on offensive missions.
We called the 11th CAG patch the “Chicken on a stick Patch”
H Troop 10th Air Cav and H Troop 17th Air Cav were there through the Cease fire in late Jan 73. I lost a good man Sgt Robert Lee Frakes the next to last day of the war.
I’m trying to debunk someone I highly suspect is a “veteran poser”. Can anyone give me dates that would be the LATEST that any NEW regular troops would have ARRIVED in Vietnam?
I’m in a hurry right now… but I DO KNOW someone who arrived in Vietnam in September 1972. US ARMY (Air) Regular Army. A lot was going on in Vietnam then. THIS IS VERIFIED.
What is this person telling you?
There is a lot that so many of us do not know about this war, unless we were there.
Fran, I arrived in country on 28 September 1972, through Camp Alpha, Long Binh and Plantation, eventually ending up at Bien Hoa, finally settled with Fox9.
I have known of several fake NamVets including one who claimed to have gone on a “reforgery” to Vietnam. Obviously had no idea what Reforger is. And another who was actually the president of the area PowMia group.
I was stationed at Bien Hoa AB from 20 May 1972 until 30 January 1973 when I left. The parent unti was MAG-12 from Iwakuni, Japan commanded by Colonel Macho. No shit.
There was an explosion in or around an ammo or bomb dump a few days on either side of 10 September 1972, if memory serves.
The biggest rocket attacks I recall were in August 1972.I totally forgot the one on 26 or 28 January unless that post referred to 1972.
I seem to recall a brand new Marine being assigned to our unit on or about September 1972. I think that he was 18 years old, which would make him one of the youngest Vietnam Veterans I can think of.
There were two rocket attacks, the second one, I believe in January was by far the largest. Our flight line at F/9 was hit by 4, plus the short round that damned near got me. The rest were ‘walked’ up and down the runways on the Air Force sides, a couple hit the revetments as I remember. We had a clear view of the attack from across the base. The BIG VOICE blaring !!! The one in December as I recall was not as large. We had captured a little VN girl coming through the ‘wire’ and the decision was to let her go, she came back around 0430, the rockets started to fall a few minutes later.
larry, reforgers are nato war games held in germany once a year. my first one was with b co. 4/63rd armor.same year back from nam. reuped feb. 74. wound up with h co. 2/2nd acr for second and third reforger. my fourth, fifth and sixth reforgers were with hht 4/69th out of mainz germany. forgot,2/2nd was out of bamberg. left germany four days after comming off my last reforger in 78. got out of the army in feb. 80. deita,1/3rd cav, ft bliss, texas.
Yes David I know what they are but the fake NamVet didnt. He claimed to have been on one to RVN. I was medivaced with mixed malaria in mid August of 72 and left hospital at Great Lakes Naval Hospital in early November. My state side unit was 1st Inf. at Fort Riley. They were preparing for REFORGER. So I did get to tour the lovely German countryside from an open jeep. While I was there I ran into several of the people I served with from 1st Cav. It was actually very interesting as I got to see a lot of the country and the various cultures it held.
What a wonderful world we live in we all know that the only thing that we can count on when it comes to our government is either an out and out lie or a greatly stretched truth.
I to was stationed at Danang Air base 1972-1973. I was with the Royal Coachman. We had many flights that were single bird flights. I flew many flights as a door gunner. I was shot at a couple of times walking to or from my hooch going out to walk, pick up cigarettes go to the NCO club. I was also shot at more then once as a gunner. Now I was not a ground fighter so if the enemy would have had better aim my death would not have been acceptable because I was not a ground fighter? I know of at least one bird the went down with 5 on board the 4 man crew and a macv Officer. They were not ground ponders and were KIA’s Do they count? they were shot down well into 1973. Oh well who cares? The families and me. We were being shot at Well into 1973……The US knows and does nothing about it.so it must be OK..
i remember when kontum got over run. we watched the fireworks that night from camp holloway.we were wanting to go up there to help them,but they wouldn,t let us. if i remember right, it was during the CEASE FIRE….
I was at 1st Cav training center when a planeload of very surprised tow missile crews arrived in their jeeps. Still had stateside fatiques on. They were going north to hit the armor being used in the easter offensive.
I stumbled onto this site and am glad that I did. I was a NCOC “speedy 5″ that got to Vietnam June 1972. I enjoyed reading the emails from people that were in the same places at the same time as me. I went in country at Saigon/Camp Alpha then to A Co 1/7th. at Bien Hoa, got transferred to C co1/7 company after the stand down ceremony at Bien Hoa where I was awarded my CIB. I remember hearing about the ammo dump. I was on the Green Line when the Marine pilots got hit during a mortar attack. (I have a few slides of that attack that I shot the next morning while smoke was still billowing. I was in and out of Grunt II and Bunker Hill FSB’s and conducted missions and patrols out of them. I got sent to E Co 14th. Inf. then C co 87th Inf. at Long Binh. Transferred to 277th. S & S Bn at Camp Horn Danang It was indeed a very busy time. I have in my posession to this day copies of orders from Ft. Leonard Wood all the way through my discharge in Jan. 73 at Ft. Carson. What a hell of a ride for a 20 year old kid from the Ozarks of southern Missouri. Thanks to all of you for your emails and most of all thanks for your service. Welcome Home!
Robert T. Schovilie was the Captain of C Co. 1/7 on 13 Aug. 72 on my Installation Clearance Record.
My Plt. Leader was a guy named Cook from Alabama or Louisianna. I also remember the 1st.Sgt’s driver was a Stephen Kelley. A guy named McSwain comes to mind also
I was in A Co for 1 month then went to C Co for a stint.
I have names of 33 1/7 troopers that were awarded the C.I.B. at the same time as me.
Somewhere in my collection of stuff I have 3 of the 1st Cav magazines from 1972 as well as a Stars & Stripes article about the 87th. Inf. Div.pulling the last infantry mission in Vietnam. I was on that one is why I kept the article. I imagine that a lot of units can claim that same task.
Thanks for the replies that you sent. Roger
A very small world. I was looking up facts about the 1/7 Cav in 1972 Vietnam and came across this site. I too was at FB Grunt 2 and also FB Crossed Sabers. I was in E Co, mortars. as a squad leader. I vividly remember the ammo dump explosion and the rocket attack on Bien Hoa airbase. I do believe the battalion commander was Col. Hodges. I also provided security for the base doctors when going on Medcaps to the local villages to provide medical treatment for the sick and malnourished. Also attended NCO school, Ft. Benning graduating May ’71. I also was part the Standdown ceremony when the colors were encased. Thanks for the forgotten memories.
No I did not attend. I just found this site yesterday. Being able to attend reunions is problematic for me as I am now retired and living in the Philippines. Funny though. I found the people and country here to have many similarities as Vietnam.
3rd Group would be odd as that was a 5th Group war.”
I don’t know much about him, just a handful of details. I know he was in 3rd group but no clue what other units since obviously that wouldn’t be the only one he was ever with. When I was with the father of my kids, I met Lt. Col. Dennington (around 1995-1996, a chaplain at that point), once at some fancy dinner/ball thing, once for the 10k Army birthday run on Ft. Bragg, and the last time at the commissary. I know he served in Vietnam with my father, got a couple ‘hero stories’, one was where my father got a silver star for hand-to-hand combat, something about crossing a river with his squad and VC came out of nowhere while most of them were still in the water.
Where I get more fuzzy is the timeline. I’m pretty sure he started off in Ft. Benning, then went to Ft. Sam Houston for awhile, then to Ft. Bragg for awhile, then two years in Vietnam from 1966-1969 with some time off in the middle of that and that’s when I know he was in 3rd group because that’s the only thing I still have from him besides a picture (paperwork about his silver star), then he was moved around a lot between Ft. Bragg, someplace in Germany, and some shorter trips to Vietnam and I’m pretty sure he was just doing medical stuff for those last few years.
After all that mess, he came home, I was born in 1976, he completely disappeared in 1977.
I retired from Special Forces and am involved with different SF groups. If you’d like to send me what you have (i.e. name, etc.) I can post it up for you and see if anything hatches anywhere.
There are other ways to get information “through channels”, too.
Read the April 2012 VFW Magizine. It has a 4 page write up on Vietnam 1972. Very little about the grunts but Task Force Garry Owen in mentioned. Has the last infantryman KIA. Worth the read.
We might well have crossed paths if you flew the An Loc missions because I see you were with the 229th April through July. I was with the “Blues” for part of that. I mostly flew in circles watching the Pink Teams work out and waiting for somebody to go down as we had recovery duty to get the pilots out and destroy the aircraft.
I still recall one aircraft that I’ve tried to find the pilot(s) of as I flew in it several times. Does the number 106 mean anything to you?
Also, small world … I live only a few miles from Bruce Crandall.
Blue Max did a helluva job during the Easter offensive bearing the blunt of the fight around An Loc. I had the honor of flying with CPT Bill Causey of Blue Max later in 72 up in II Corp. A lot of the Cav pilots from D/229th were transferred to H Troop 10th Cavalry at Lane AHP near An Son late July 72.
I flew snakes and was shot down 23 Jun 72 near Quon Loi. Took a hit at 3500 feet from a large antiaircraft weapon and pretty much went straight down. I was in the front seat with CPT Paul Lent as my back seater. We caught a lucky break and a B 229th slick pulled us out after about 10 minutes on the ground.
I was and still am very proud of the PUC that TF Garry Owens won at An Loc.
Thanks for your service SGM. Life has been pretty good for this old soldier–sounds like it has been for you as well.
I’m glad you got out. The first two things they told me about those birds was: 1) never stand in front of the rocket tubes while trying to rescue the pilots and 2) don’t try cutting through the canopy by striking anywhere other than right on the edge of the plexiglass.
I can personally attest to how close that air support was when one of the rockets kicked up a rock and it hit me in the wrist.
Did you know the pilot that went down near An Loc and was interred at the Tomb of the Unknowns? He went down during the Easter offensive. I found out later that his DNA matched a family out here in Hoquiam, Washington.
All in all, life has been pretty good here, too. My wife is about to retire and the last of four grandchildren we raised will graduate in June.
Are you hooked up with the Yahoo! group 229th? If not, I can send you the link but I don’t want to post it here so send your email address to me at bob@falcorp.com.
To Dave Wallace. My first unit in RVN was 1st of the 12th. I joined up with them from the training center and went out to Bunker Hill. I got a nasty sunburn stringing concertina. We went on three day R&R to Vung Tau right after joining them. When they left I went to 1st of the 7th and we were mostly at Grunt II. When the 7th stood down went to Ftrp 9th. From there went to Long Bien. I came down with malaria while in the reaction force ready room. This all happened from April to August of 72. I was Popeyes RTO at Bunker Hill when he shot himself in the foot during John Wayne “Cowboys” movie. Was at Long Than* with 7th.
After reading these posts I am more bouyed by the fact WE knew we were there and what we were doing while the government denied we were there at all. Viet Nam almost cost me my life and there is no mention of any of it on my DD214.
Just found this site. Pretty cool. I was a machine gunner Bravo Co. 1st/7th firebase Crossed Sabers, Spudis and Grunt II. Was on Grunt when ammo dump blew – was setting claymores with Sgt. Goolsby (sp?). Was also there for the rocket attack at Bin Hoa in Aug. 72 – left soon after – was among some of the last of the combat ground troops to leave. I remember the guy getting newspaper clip from parents about no more ground troops being in Vietnam. Made us wonder, if that was true – what were we doing there?
To RMontoya. I was a 60 gunner with 1st of the 7th also. When you mentioned the guy getting the newspaper clipping was it on log day in the bush? We had a guy pull it out of the envelope and that was the headline of the clipping and she had wrote on it “Does this mean you?” Or words to that effect.
What about the classified recovery team I was on from the 101st Airbourn Division that came in early 1974 to try to find and get POWs and body remains, which I still have nightmares about. There is no record or info I can find on this Special Operation. Aside from that, They have conviently lost my records and pick up from when I was sent to Germany. Its like my first 2 or more years don’t exist. I have tried for 7 years or more now to get something but they tell me to forget it if they don’t have a record of it. I am now beeing treated for MS,High BP, Type 2 diabetes, severe depression, Anxiety, Panic Attacks, sleep apnea and breathing, now using a CPAP, Pain, increased sensitivity to heat and sun light, blurring of my vision, double vision, fatigue, PTSD and others. I am 100% disabled, house bound and require aid and attendance provided by my wife. The Doctors say most all this came from exposure to Agent Orange but since they have no records, I am not service connected so my wife and I suffer and try to make it as best as we can. I have a back injury where I crashed and burned on a jump but there again there is no record. My current MRI and X-Ray show the injury. Do any of you remember this mission or anything about it. There was a MP group when we got to Saigon but my memory is so messed up I can’t remember who they were. My code name for the mission was “Bear”.
Well, don’t you have any orders with other people’s names on it from the unit you were in the 101st with? Who was the unit Commander? Where did you deploy from? Where did the recovery team go in-country?
The VA will accept testimonials from people that were there and can confirm your presence in-country.
There shouldn’t be any reason a mission like this would be classified at this point.
Sgt. White, my husband’s DD2-14 did not show how long he really stayed in Vietnam and where and who with later after Ceasefire. There was the Four Party Joint Military Commission and the ICCS which formed after Ceasefire and lasted until March 29th 1973. Their purpose was to help exchange POWs and recover remains interred in Communist territory. Record-keeping was poor at that time because of lack of Administration and how the US was trying to get out quickly. I found one page in the 1972-1973 Command Histories regarding these missions. I suggest going on-line and seeing if there is any reference to these missions in 1974. (I do not know IF there is a Command History for after 1973.) ALSO! I was able to have it confirmed that my husband was in Vietnam after Ceasefire and after his DD2-14 stated by going over his DA-20… It shows he was not stateside for three months after he was suppose to be and that he left Vietnam March 25, 1973. I texting this and reciting from memory… hope it might help some.
Also, I learned so much about this time and these missions from… my sister-in-law, brither-in-law and mother-in-law. I had them write notarized written testimonies of the things that my husband told them when he just came back from Vietnam. He can’t remember much either, but it really impact him. Because of their testimonies, the Command Histories speaking of these missions and times, and my husband’s DA-20 confirming that my husband was ‘missing’ for three months at that time… the VA now acknowledges that he was there then.
looking for info. on 12 April 72 Sgt. Marvin Lynn Biscamp was K.I.A. Another man was wounded at the same time.Sorry to say i cant quite remember his name,been a long time can anyone help me out.
to fran they can never find your dd-214 till they want to , they are 800,000 claims behind as we talking, two yrs they say to me hold on we are working on it
Was Sgt Biscamp with the Delta company 1/7th? I remember taking over a NVA bunker complex about April. I was moving out with the point team when another GI past me on the way to guard duty. It was down a hill toward a water hole. On his way there a NVA regular shot the GI in the face. I remember see the body bag next to Captain (James) Witter while he was on the horn calling for a helicopter. I have a few more memories about what happened if this is the right GI.
Fred: OMG, I just got chills all over. The guy that originally headed out that way was me. I was the engineer that rappelled in to blow those bunkers. I needed to dig a cat hole and make a deposit but I decided to go into one of the bunkers and do it there.
While I was there, a fairly new Shake and Bake sergeant straight out of NCOC took out a relief for the OP and took four in the head and hest. For some time that thought was that it was me that was shot as I was the last one anybody remembered going out that way.
If you recall, the bird that brought me in flew around quite sometime as the dinks were popping smoke in the area and the pilots swere trying to confirm who was who. I burned my gloves coming down. When I got down, there were two guys in D Co from Washington. One was Ed Nelson from a town called Walla Walla and nobody belived that he came from a town by that name. I went to a small, private college there and eventually went to Ed;s wedding about 1973.
The other guy was from Bremerton, where I grew up and still live near today. I’ve never been able to recall his name.
The commander wasn’t James Witter, it was Tony Witter. James took over a little later.
Sheesh! I thought maybe we had crossed paths somewhere and now you just recalled this KIA. I think it was about February 1972 and it was D Co. Biscomb was either B or C.
I also wound up walking point for several missions for D Co as I had more time out there than many of the infantry guys.
SGM, We had taken a bunker complex and while we were waiting in a clearing for the engineers to arrive one of our guys had a nervous breakdown. I was wondering if it may have been the same mission. We also had two K.I.A. and two W.I.A. from a friendly fire in our other platoon.
SGM Zornes
WOW! I got your response last nite but i couldn’t reply. I spent the nite staring at the ceiling, lots of memories of that terrible day. Yes you recall it well, I saw you repeling, heard the birds flying just over tree tops all around us. While this was happening to you, my life was unfolding. “Slim” my squad leader told me to go on guard duty at the blues. I told him I couldn’t because the point team was about to move out. I said to him to get someone else… how about a newbee that need the practice. Slim did and secounds later I heard the fire. I still to this day wonder if I would have had a better chance than the newbee. I was and still am hypervidgilent and at the time never went anywhere without my weapon on full rock and roll. I remember hearing that the killed GI had his weapon on safety. Did he think he was walking in the park… We were in the middle of a enemy Bunker Complex for god sakes. a memory burned deep
Funny what one recalls but I think I remember that there were actually 17 bunkers that day. We blew them with 40 lb cratering charges.
Molinen was actually killed after I was on the ground and unless ‘Im wrong, it was the day after I came in, sometime around the morning I think, rather than that same day because I believe I rappelled in late in the afternoon and we called for the charges the next day.
You remember seeing the body next to Tony Witter. I have burned into my memory watching him pulled out of the jungle up to the bird in a litter. I can’t remember if we took his water and ammunition, ghoulish as it sounds.
Larry: I don’t recall the incident you’re speaking of. I have no recollection of being around when anybody had a nervous breakdown.
I do remember once a Latino guy named Sanchez always wanted to carry the 60. He got his wish one mission. We passed through a muddy swamp (I wouldn’t call it a rice paddy because there wasn’t any rice growing it it, at least at the time.).
It was ass-kicking grueling with mud up to the lower part of our hips. We finally got into a grove and the commander called it quits for the day so we set up the NDP. Sanchez cramped up so bad and was screaming that we had to evacuate him. The funny part of this story is after we got into that grove, everybody checked for leeches and the guy that had been walking in front of me had one right on his penis (well, not funny for him).
Anyway, I only recall one time being in friendly fire when the tail shot up the point because the point somehow sort of doubled back around. Nobody got hit, though.
Does anybody here remember a Staff Sergeant we called “Irish”? I think he dd a couple of tours. I seem to recall that he had been busted at one point. He had a “famous” blond handlebar moustache.
We ran into a bunker complex once and Irish passed the word the point was going to recon by fire. There was some fire, then we waited. Irish came back and said they’re going to recon by grenade. We heard a couple of explosions and waited. And waited. And waited. Finally Irish came back, obviously perturbed, and said “They must be reconning by bayonet now”. Funny, at least to me, at the time.
Nobody got killed on that mission, unlike the one we talked about above, I have no recollection of how any bunkers I blew.
SGM Zornes
Your right in the timing of events, writing these shorts i seem to jump over some things.
Oh Yes I remember “Irish” a drinking man after my own heart. I seem to remember that Irish went over a firebase berm with knife in mouth to personally waste a wounded zapper. At least that was the rumor about the wildman. Do you remember a Lt. Williams. No reason you should. He held down the company rear and wanted a field asignment so bad. He got one after while and really showed his OFFICER stupidity. I think that even today i’d have a hard time not punching him. I hope he is around to read this!!! Irish and Williams got along like oil and water.
The stupidest officer I saw over there was running security for me while I mineswept the road from Spudis one morning.
I’m on the left side of the road running the mine detector and over on the left shoulder, about seven or eight meters in front of me, is this Lieutenant. I seem to recall that his branch was Medical Corps. I think he wore eyeglasses. He was a goodf looking guy.
I stopped, pulled my headphones down around my neck and said something like “Hey, Lt, do see anything wrong with this picture? If you’re gonna sweep that shoulder for me I may as well bring up the rear because you don’t need me up here.”
I went back and told my people to not ever send that dumbass out with me again.
From R Montoya to F zink no we were B co. Date was 12 May 72 we were on patrol off F.S.B. spudis it was hot lots of bush SGT. Axleys squad had been on point. We stopped and the LT. met with squad leaders.wanted to head back to the N.D.P. SGT Biscamp told Ace( (S.G.T. Axley) that he would take the point.We had taken a few steps when there was an explosion killing biscamp and wounding anouther.
To Thoses that served with amazment:
Lt Williams was tall, thinning hair and a mustche. I believe an admin background. On our first mission he decided the chopper pilots couldn’t find us by cordinances alone to pick us up.. So 5 of us where ordered to stand in an open field with six foot long red towels held over our heads waving for the gaggle. I first refused… but a direct order with threats…well I went out in the middle of the frig’in field laid down on my back put the red towel over my 16 barrel and held it up with my left arm. I figured I’d sacrafice my left arm for god and country. We got back to fire base cross sabres safely but the relationship was never the same. Friends come and go but idiots last forever
Fred: You have described the same moron I had as security the morning of that mine sweep. That is EXACTLY what he looked like.
I know there were a couple of occasions when we weren’t sure where we were so we had artillery fire a spotter round but waving red flags in a clearing? There’s a guy that escaped a frag.
I’m curious, though, where in the hell did you find six foot long red towels?????
The red towels are more simple to discribe than: Do you remember buying solid color hammock’s from the locals. We used them to swing low and sleep off the ground. Mine was dark blue. Well the LT got some in red., Cut the tie strng from both ends and had a 6 plus foot red nylon cloth seamed on all sides. Brilliant for someone with no brains and trying to get you killed.
Yeah, I used to “swing” when I wnent out with certain companies (others wouldn’t let you). And we had to swing low in case of mortars or incoming fire.
So here’s my funny story about swinging in a hammock. When I first got to Crossed Sabers it was nothing but a piece of dried up dirt right of Highway 1. I pounded in two engineer stakes (what we call steel T fence posts in the civilian world). I had no rope so I took detonating cord (yup, THAT detonating cord– the stuff made with PETN that burns at 32,000 feet per second).
I cut two pieces to hold the hammock up, sat my butt on the hammock to swing in and the det cord sliced right through and I fell on my ass.
I used to carry blasing caps in my pocket like change. Yes, the stupid things we did when we were kids.
Doc Roberts yes the name only. Just remember him as a nice guy. Do you remember the KC named Kim? He was a North Vietnam defector. He was also a Hanoi university trained Medical Doctor. Wonderful man. kind, intellegent, bush savvy took care of you if he liked you. It only took a smile and a little respect towards him to win him over. He was so scared for the war to end and what would happen to him. Yes I wonder what did become of him?.
Doc Roberts…you’d know him. He carried a grease gun. I was with A company once and you guys weren’t far away. Something happened and the firing started. You can always tell a grease gun by the very slow pop .. pop..pop it made. Roberts went back home to Virginia and got a job working for the US Army repairing helicopters in the Washington, D.C. area that were used by high ranking civilian DOD people.
I vaguely remember the KC guy. I used to give him money to go into the ville and bring me back Ramen. I think it was 200 p. By the time Ramen became a big thing back in the states I was tired of it but it was so light to carry instead of C rats. You had to be going somewhere that had water though. You could pull up some bamboo shoot roots to flavor it with.
I have no idea whatever became of those guys. They probably ended up in re-education camps IF they were lucky. I recall working with some Cambodian scouts, too.
Now that you say grease gun i remember better. I still did not know him any more than name. He went home (back to the world) before I did and when i was in the compamy rear once “French” supply sgt about 7foot tall red hair. Tooo tall to go into the bush showed me a grease gun he had in the weapons room. Shoots 45′s if I remember right
The .45 caliber Grease Gun… a P.O.S. says SGM Zinkes. Well, that Sergeant Major is because you weren’t a tanker.
In early 1971 my unit in the Americal received a newly rebuilt M-48A3 battle tank from Okinawa to replace our worn out machine. The thing had been done over from the tracks up, all to original equipment standards right down to the Grease Gun in it’s clip holder on the interior turret bulkhead.
“It’s a P.O.S. ” I said to our tank commander, Sergeant Jose Rojas, the rate of fire is too slow.”
“Watch this, Gunner” he says as he proceeds to remove the recoil spring from the receiver and replace it with a spare recoil spring for one of our .50 caliber machine guns. It’s hard to describe the improvement that heavier spring made but it easily doubled the rate of fire. P.O.S. no more.
The slow rate of fire could be ramped up, for certain, but the the weapons had many other shortcomings, not the least or which is the effective range AND when you ran out of ammuntion, it was highly, HIGHLY unlikely any bird coming in to kick out ammo boxes was going to be kicking out cases of .45. Never mind the issue of reloading the magazines.
Any field weapon you can’t get resupplied with ammuniton is pretty much useless.
Well SGM, it’s like this: considering that an M48A3 tank carried three tons of fuel and ammunition the resupply of .45 ACP was, how do they say, not an issue.
And it was a very handy little gun for the driver, who being crammed into hull would have had to rely on his .45 pistol for any close encounters.
Beauty, SGN, really is in the eyes of the beholder.
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The “Gary Owen Task Force”, a brigade of the 1st Cavalry was still in country near Saigon as a combat infantry unit in August of 1972. Probably left about the same time that month as the 82d FA elements up north.
I was infantry assign to a mortar section. I left Vietnam between Mar-May of 1973
There is still so much about this war that is ‘unknown’ except by the people who were there and lived it.
I was also with Co A and Co D, 1/7 in 1971 and thenworked with the Blue Teams of the 229th during the Easter Offensive of 1972, mostly over An Loc, destroying downed aircraft and picking up pilots. The Garry Owen stand down was late June of 1972.
We stopped all active patrol missions within about a month or so of that. We closed down firebase Spudis sometime around July 15th or so right after my friend Robert D. Hamilton was killed on July 4th. It was the last active 1/7 firebase (after Grunt II and Crossed Sabers).
I left country August 13th.
Ricardo, you say that you were with a mortar section March – May 1973? Can you tell me what unit and where you were located? I’m very interested in this because I am writing a book (my 2nd about Vietnam) about the last year of America’s involvement there: March 1972 until March 29, 1973.
Richard Vidaurri
Americal Division
1970-72
Mortar platoon in 72/73? I was in country in 72/73 and there were no ground pounders left, at least that I was aware of. All our guys ‘flew’.
It appears, from the Order of Battle published by the VHPA, that ALL of the Air Cav Troops in Vietnam were stood down February 1973.
It is not true that all of US combat troops were out of Vietnam by 1972.
IF it was said all of the “ground” troops were out of Vietnam by 1972, that would have been closer to being correct BUT for the fact that each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry Platoon assigned.
Fran Lawrence and Jerry Morelock:
I’ve been reading this thread with great interest. I’m working on a 2n book about Vietnam which will be set during the last year of the U.S. phase of Indochina, March 1972 to 29 March, 1973.
Among my reference works I rely heavily on Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle. According to Stanton you left RVN along with the rest of the 196th LIB on 29 June, 1972. B Battery’s assets, while it may have appeared to you to have gone to your sister battery, C / 3 / 82 FA, actually went to a newly formed Provisional Battery G / 29th FA, which was the successor to C Battery. It was that G Battery that formed a task force with 3rd Battalion / 21st Infantry, which you mention.
All that said it appears to me that any confusion as far as last combat unit in Vietnam is really a matter of “combat unit” vs. “ground combat unit.” Stanton calls the 3 / 21 Infantry (without mention to a task force) the “last U.S. Army ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam: 23 August, 1972. Under the entry for G / 29 FA he states that the battery departed Vietnam in September 1972 with no further explanation.
All that said, I’m still left searching for the last ground combat ( including aero-rifle platoons) unit, regardless of size, to turn out the lights in Vietnam.
Best to all,
Richard Vidaurri
Americal / later 196th LIB
1970-1972
Author of The Gates of the Shadow, the unlikely story of America’s last battle tank in Vietnam.
richvidaurri@gmail.com
I was in Bien Hoa up until August 1st 1972 attached to the Garry Owen Task Force during the rocket attack that morning. I was sitting in the radar tower and at about 5AM when the rockets started coming in. We triangulated the position from the radar towers and dropped a bunch of artillery on them. Later that day, I was taken to the air base in Siagon for processing out of country. I left VietNam on August 5th 1972. I also served at FireBase Melanie from February through mid June of 1972. I was on the last chopper out of Melanie with the colonel when we turned it over to the ARVN.
To Mike Evenson, Please email me about NCOC 71 and Task Force Garry Owens 72. Would love to talk to you.
7thcavrecon7172@gmail.com
Phil purdy
To Mike Evenson, If you could please email me at matthew.prochaska@gmail.com. The reason being that I might have a item that you lost after you came back to the US in late 1972
Matt
I have looked and looked for those who were with Task Force Garry Owen. I was with 1st Brigride HHC and stood in the stand down cermorny @ Bien Hoe in June 1972. For those that were there remember one of the honor guards that passed out and fell forward and landed on his steel pot that fell off just before. After that there weren’t many of us left. I remember selling refigritors to the Marines that were bought in to protect our rear as we left. What a joke that was as most were new in country and we all know about newbe’s. Thanks to all the Skytroopers out there and we will all fly again together some day!
I remember somebody falling down. But what I really remember about that ceremony was a loach pilot getting an award for pulling out something like 11 ARVNs or Vietnamese civilians at one time, most of them, of course, hanging on the skids. I’m not sure but he may ahve made two different trips doing the same thing. I think their compound was overrun during the Easter Offensive.
Dear fellow AG commentators:
For the last couple of days I’ve been involved in research regarding combat units in Vietnam during the last year of the American phase of the war. Several of you have given me your time and memories so that I now have a pretty clear understanding of the matter.I might add here that there is precious little published material on that last lonely American year of March 1972 through the end of March, 1973.
In the final analysis I can say that after Task Force Gary Owen departed on 22 August, 1972 there were no longer American ground combat units anywhere in Vietnam. That is not to say, however, there were no ground combat soldiers still in-country . Rifle security companies, Special Forces soldiers attached to MACV or CIA, MACV advisers, these all soldiered on until the end.
So, I was about to close out this part of my search out when I stumbled onto something intriguing: something called the Infantry Security Force (Special Guard). The only information in Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle is that this was a battalion-sized force under the direct control of MACV and later (later? later when? later how?) the Department of the Army, that it served in multiple locations, was composed of specially chosen soldiers, and was a TDA organization. The unit served in Vietnam from March 1965 until March 1973.
I have hunted all through my reference library, the Internet, old friends… and NADA. Can anyone give my any information on these folks?
Also as an interesting observation I’ve gotten the overwhelming impression that unless a soldier who served that last year had done a previous tour in Vietnam, he had no idea what the war was like in the earlier years – no clue whatsoever. But I cannot be certain of this until I hear from if reading about the experiences of the earlier Vietnam soldiers leaves you with the same impression of remoteness that reading your stories leaves in me.
I also want to say that like every soldier who served in Vietnam I have the greatest admiration for the air crews. But the challenges and the raw courage of the men who flew in Vietnam at the end are remarkable even among that already remarkable group.
What about air or support units? What US personnel were permitted per
the 1973 agreement? How were advisors or technical support organized
and how did they leave, right to the end in 1975?
Thanks
MEC
I have a few questions trying to connect the dowith my dad.. help plz
Fire away with your questions.
your right some were there till 1977, read your naval historical foundation it will tell you some were there till 1978 ,someone had to clean up the mess
Dennis, are you sure of what you are saying? You of course realize that the NVA came down and deactivated all of South Vietnam in April 1975. That action alone would lead one to believe that there were no American servicemen or civilian government employees in Vietnam after that time.
Hey! Hold up there. You are refering to artillery units as being the last combat troops to leave Viet Nam. A FACT is that C Troop 10th Aero Cavalry left Viet Nam in February 1973. I don’t know if they were the absolute last unit, and I don’t want to quible about who is combat and whom are not, but I will suggest that anyone who was medivaced out of, or extracted whole from, a hot LZ would probable not doubt that helicopter crews were in fact , combat troops
Sincerly,
Rick Reavill, UH-1H Crew Chief, 176th Assault Helicopter Co 69/70, A Conpany, 158th Assault Helicopter BN, 101st Airborne, 71
iwas one of those looking for pow [smu]
Rick, this is an entry from Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby L. Stanton:
Troop H, 10th Air Cavalry, departed Vietnam 26 February 1973, was an air cavalry troop raised from the assets of Troop C, 7th Squandron, 17th Cavarly. Troop H served with the 17th Aviation Group at An while in Vietnam.
Correction: that last line should read “…at An Son while in Vietnam.”
The 1st Aviation Company, 1st Brigade, 1 Calvary, 12th Combat Aviation Group, F Troop 8th Cavalry was there until at least Feb 1973.
During the Easter Offensive 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry was attached to the 11th Combat Aviation Group from June 1972 to October 1972.
The U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group’s activities were closely coordinated with those of the ARVN units. This group provided essintial support with troop lift logistical support, gunships and medevacs.
F Troop, 8th Cav was there in Quang Tri, the day the Easter Offensive started. The movie ‘Bat 21′ portrays the the time as during the ‘Tet Offensive’ …this is totally incorrect. It took place and began March 29-30, 1972 in Quang Tri. The book is much better than the movie too….and it’s all true. Men of F Troop, 8th Cav gave their all and some – their lives – in the largest search and rescue ever.
Some of the F Troop, 8th Cav were kids and probably still don’t know to this day that they fought in the probably the biggest and bloodiest battle ever.
Because of the intensity of the war, most of the F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG files are not available. The service of many from F Troop are not documented.
bless you for your service fred , we are all brothers till the end. do you remember what smu is .
Fran, it isn’t my intention to sound argumentative. I do have to question, however, your comments that “… because of the intensity of the war F Troop, 8th Cavalry, 12th CAG files are not available…” Then “The service of many from F Troop were not documented”
I’m not sure what that means. I have had a hell of a time getting even anecdotal evidence from that last year but I believe that’s mainly because in many American minds the war was over by mid – 1972. I have indeed only been able to find ONE non-fiction book about that period: America’s Last Vietnam Battle (Dale Andrade) and that’s only the Easter Offensive.
All that said, I cannot see why intensity should equal shoddy record-keeping. That hasn’t been the case in any other American war.
The last Air Cavalry Troops left Vietnam in 1973. They are the last U S Army conventional COMBAT forces to leave Vietnam. And, technically speaking, since each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry platoon that could be employed to fight “on the ground’ you could argue that the last conventional U S GROUND forces left Vietnam in 1973.
I was the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group from Oct ’72 to Feb ’73 and can verify this information.
Major John P. Kennedy, served 10 November 1972 to 28 January 1973 under Lt. Colonel Stanley D. Cass, 11th CAG.
No need to verify, I have the 11th CAGs After Action Report in front of me, detailing the 11th CAGs methodical consolidation down to the 62nd Aviation Company + FPJMC and ICCS Detachments, colors to USAEUR on 16 March, and finally turning out the lights on 28 March.
I am, however, happy that you responded, Major Kennedy, as the same After Action makes note that during the “pre-stand-down phase,” November 1972, a security force was formed from the Blues, the ground component of the aerorifle platoon. As they are again mentioned at the end of the report it is apparent that they stayed until the end, 28 March 1973.
Despite what Fran proclaims I’m not without a clue nor am I trying to make a point. I also agree that any combat soldiers, assigned to any unit in Vietnam should be classified as “ground combat troops.” I’m doing research for a book, my 2nd book on Vietnam, set during the last year of the American phase, 72-73, and information is hard to come by.
Now, as long as I have you on the line, Major: Is the After Action Report correct as to those Blues? And, after forming up into a security force did they ever again go on operations, SAR, anywhere outside the wire?
Thank you for responding to my post, I greatly appreciate any information that you can provide.
Richard Vidaurri
Specialist – 5 Vidaurri
Americal Division, then 196th LIB
1970-72
Author: The Gates of the Shadow.
The massive stand down of American forces in 1972 and the subsequent reassignment of units to other headquarters resulted in some pretty shoddy records keeping. In June of 1972 I personally submitted a recommendation for the Medal of Honor for Lt. James P. McQuade. A year later I found out that it had been “lost”. There are many more examples of a lessor magnitude than this but it is indicative of what went on at that time.
F/8 went from the 196th Light Infantry Brigade to the 11th CAG to the 12th CAG in less than a year’s time.
My last assignment in Vietnam was as the OIC of the Region I Four Party Joint Military Commission Aviation Detachment stationed at Danang AFB. I left Vietnam from Bien Hoa on MArch 30, 1973.
Air cavalry units with the primary mission of supporting South Vietnamese Army forces were the only active Army combat units in Vietnam throughout 1972. Both the 11th CAG and the 12th CAG, (Combat Aviation Group), were there until at least Feb. 1973.
Many of these men fought, supplied logistical lift and provided medevacs in support of the ARVN troops in the biggest battle of Vietnam, ‘The Easter Offensive’ or ‘The Spring Offensive’.
‘The Easter Offensive’ began and ended in “The Second Battle of Quang Tri’. Some of these men died there.
March 29-30 1972 at Quang Tri, was the first time that SAMs and regular AAA weapons were used. The NVA introduced the Soviet-built SA-7 (Strella) heat-seeking, shoulder-fired missile, for use against low and slow-flying Allied aircraft. It was deadly, and numerous Allied aircraft losses were attributed to the weapon.
Until USAF fire power could be transported back from Saigon, (sent there from the ‘drawdown’), 1st Calvary, Combat Aviation Groups held down the fort with help from the Marines that where still there. There were still some Navy offshore that helped too later with firepower. The Army of the Republic of Vietnam, backed by the United States Army, shelled more than 80,000 tons of ordnance, the destructive capacity equivalent to almost six Hiroshima-size atomic bombs.
When the massive firepower was first unleashed, unsuspecting NVA soldiers reporting for duty were in the city at the time and Quang Tri was referred to as ‘Hamburger City’ by some that saw the aftermath.
As well, leading out of the city was still ‘The Highway of Horrors’ from when
South Vietnam had earlier lost its Quang Tri Province on May 1st, 1972 and the NVA cut down masses of panic civilians, war refugees, who were fleeing the city and got stuck at Truong Phuoc Bridge because of the traffic jam after an enemy artillery shell heavily damaged the bridge. Chaos occurred when enemy artillery began a rain of many hundreds shells from their 130mm guns on the refugees. A moment later, Communist foot soldiers attacked the crowd with infantry weapons that included mortars and grenade launchers.
When ‘The Second Battle of Quang Tri’ was over, (Sept. 16, 1972 the city was taken back. On Oct. 22, 1972 Quang Tri Province firebases were secured), not one building remained standing. The intense bombing, combined with U.S. use of the Agent Orange defoliant, turned the land into a virtual moonscape.
This all took place during ‘Operation Ceasefire’ when we were standing down and turning over the bases to the ARVN.
Americans still have little knowledge of this time in Vietnam and the part that brave American troops, including U.S. Army Air Calvary Combat Aviation Groups, took in it.
Richard-
No problem. The quote you mentioned that I wrote about records-keeping is from a notarized letter of a Colonel, U.S. Army, Air – Retired. He was my husband’s commander in Vietnam.
The reason records-keeping was chaotic at best was because almost everyone was redeployed back home and out of Vietnam at that time, including HQ. A skeleton crew of junior administration was left behind and later as Communications was handed over to the ARVN, communications between the Admin left behind and HQ, (which already left) was even harder to maintain for instructions to be given. (Here I am parapharsing excerpts of Command History and After Action Reports.)
The other people left behind in Vietnam we’re busy fighting an intense war.
I am familiar of the bookand author you mentioned.
Yes, the story of US Army Aviation during this time of the war has been untold, still…. and basically unknown to Americans still. That is why I having been wanting to write such a book. If Mr. Andrade is interested in helping me write this book, he can contact me and I will talk with him.
Fran, I’m a writer but I don’t know Dale Andrade. The way to contact him is to go on Amazon, find his book, and then send him an e-mail via his publisher.
Richard-
Also in answer to your question…
After F/8 was transferred from 11th CAG to 12th CAG and they moved down to Bien Hoa… At Ceasefire, everyone was trying to roll up and get out quickly. There was a mass accumalation of paperwork. It was very difficult for the skeleton crew of junior admin to know exactly what to do with it. Because of the problems in communications after Communications was handed over to the ARVN, a lot of paperwork was taken to Tan Son Nuht and burnt.
That’s what I made out of reading Command Histories and After Action Reports. When I have more time, I will post, word for word, the exact words and sources for you.
F-R-A-N!!! Please do not go to anymore trouble to unearth quotes and sources. Now, you’ve gone and made me feel like a sap who’s been questioning a nice lady’s credibility.
Richard- thanks man. :-)
An excerpt from the very well researched and written literature:
READJUSTNMENT PROBLEMS AMONG VIETNAM VETERANS
The etiology of Combat-Related Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders
By Jim Goodwin, Psy. D.
Published by Disabled American Veterans
Page 6-7
“For both World War II and the Korean War, the incidence of neuropsychiatry disorder among combatants increased as the intensity of the wars increase. As these wars wore down, there was a corresponding decrease in these disorders until the incidence closely resembled their particular prewar periods.â€
However, the Vietnam experience proved different. As the war in Vietnam progressed in intensity, there was no corresponding increase in neuropsychiatry causalities among combatants. It was not until the early 1970’s, when the war was winding down, that neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase. With the end of direct American troop involvement in Vietnam in 1973, the number of veterans presenting neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase tremendously (President Commission on mental Health, 1978).”
Interesting, isn’t it?
Richard – eek, the quote you quoted was not the commander’s. (My mistake… being busy and texting.)
The commander did say however, “Due to the intensity of the war, records-keeping was chaotic at best.”
You were not being aurgumentive. It was a good question.
(I do know that on one my post that I wrote years ago on the Easter Offensive; not everything I wrote was perfect and I need to make some minor but important corrections.)
:-)
I am not sure the last troops came out in 72-73 I was a member of the 5th special forces group was reasigned to the (MACV SOG)/ CCN and as a member of this elit special observation group I was not out until around late 74-earily 75 can you shed some light on this please as i was very young and it was a long time ago i want to be sure i am right. thank you please reply to my e-mail address with any information
Brad I have some information for you. Please contact me.
I served with my brother for six or seven months in 1972 at
Marble mt compound, DaNang. We were with the 11th CAG.
I WAS WITH HEADQUARTERS AND HE WAS WITH THE 282 THEN THE 48TH. His name was Morris. Did any other brothers serve together in vietnam at the same place and time?
Thank you General Truong for giving credit to the Americans that were there assisting the ARVN in the Battles of Quang Tri during the Easter Offensive until the very end and calling them by name. It means so much to me – especially since it has been the only reference that I have found on the Internet doing so.
Our own American military have given them no public credit whatsoever, these troops that stayed and fought and served long after the all of the ground troops went home in August 1972.
But you gave them credit where credit was due. Thank you.
May you rest in peace.
Ngo, Lieutenant General Quang Truong, The Easter offensive of 1972. Washington DC: U.S. Army Center of Military History, 1980.
“In addition to support provided the U.S. Air Force, I Corps forces also received much assistance from the U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group whose activities were closely coordinated with those of ARVN units. This group provided essential support with troop lift logistical support and gunships.â€
Statement byJerry Morelock, Armchair General, Senior Historian
“Some American troops (no combat troops) were still in Vietnam until they left in 1973.”
You are wrong. Aviation COMBAT Groups (CAGs) were there at least until March 24, 1973 that I know of personally.
May I suggest you read a few After Action Reports or Command Histories? Something? If you do, you will see that I am correct.
Combat Aviation Groups in Vietnam were COMBAT TROOPS in EVERY sense of the word and the few left behind were fighting HARD and NON-STOP after everybody else went home until ceasefire. It was very dangerous after ceasefire as well.
Please help honor our veterans by correctly recognizing them and their sacrifices, especially as a senior historian.
According to the After Action report of the 11th CAG:
Elements of F Troop / 4th Cavalry engaged targets along the Song Tra River (Danang) on 28 January 1973. They recorded 30 KBH (killed by helicopter) in an action that ended at 0755.
The Cease Fire was effective at 08000 that morning.
So you are correct that combat troops were in Vietnam until the end, indeed the very end, 28 March 1973. Although they were no longer actively engaged in combat after the Cease Fire they were in country supporting the Four Powers Joint Military Command, and the International Commission for Control and Supervision, and indeed received hostile fire during some of those missions.
But Morelock’s post was referring to ground combat soldiers and in that he is correct – sort of – because although the last ground combat battalion left Vietnam in August 1972 there were odds-and-ends in-country until the end, and perhaps even after that.
Richard – “Odds and Ends” ?????
That makes my blood boil.
I am looking and looking for the After Action Reports from April 1972 to October 1972. I cannot find them.
11th CAG was involved upfront in the rest of the Easter Offensive that started back up June 28th, 1972.
It was not “Odds and Ends” dammit!
I know guys who were personally there including the commander who led them into battle.
“Odds and Ends”?
That is extreme disrespect to their
service and sacrifices.
You and most of America, including
Jerry Morelock and Dale Andrade have no clue.
After Action Reports… ORLLs… anything to do with that time… I cannot find online for the time period, April 1972 to October 1972. I know where to look… but I have been so busy fighting the VA because they told my husband that they did not know that there were any combat troops in Vietnam after APRIL 1972… and called him a liar. We are almost done with dealing with the VA, I hope… and I know that a book needs to written about the US Army Aviation for the time that we are discussing… but I really want to spend time with my family after the grueling fight with the VA… but it needs to be written and done RIGHT. It was NOT “odds and ends”. It was an all out war.
Fran… relax and re-read my post, specifically the last paragraph where I mention “odds and ends.” I was clearly referring to GROUND COMBAT troops, and what I meant was this: after Task Force Gary Owen stood down on 22 August, 1972 and 3rd battalion , 21st Infantry stood down one day later (thereby making it the last ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam) there were no longer any ground combat formations in Vietnam. As far as I can tell from the after action reports of the 11th and 12 the CAGs even the Aerorifle platoons (Blues) were given base defense missions.
It’s obvious that you have some very deep personal associations with the subject that are making you touchy in the extreme. Morelock and I are Vietnam Veterans. I served 18 months with the Americal Division and later the 196th Light Infantry Brigade. I’m a 100% service-connected disabled veteran, thus it’s absurd to say that that Morelock or I would dishonor anyone else who served in Vietnam.
Richard – you just don’t get it. Base Defense Missions was a part of what was going on. These guys were part of snd participated (in many ways since almost everyone was gone), in the largest enemy offensive in the entire war. I say this in complete confidence and with proof.
Yes I know about the Tet Offensive. This really is a part of the Vietnam War that needs to be better known…. And of the men who were there and fought in it.
I was flying with F Troop, 9th Cav, 12th CAG out of Bien Hoa up until February 1973. It is true many of the ‘records’ seem to be missing. I was told that what records do exist are stashed away in the DC area in a warehouse. To make my point about records. After I returned to the world and assigned to Ft. Bragg (no comment), I was awarded a DFC in a quiet ceremony in the battalion commander’s office. There is NO record of me being awarded the DFC in the records.
John Lane,
‘Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed ‘Gopher’.
‘Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed ‘Gopher’.
I remember when F/8 showed up, presumably to give us a hand taking care of III Corp. I was a 67V2T (OH-58), but was a Scout in F/9 flying OH6A’s. We did not have a tow bird with us, in fact only you guy’s had a minigun mounted loach, which as I recall you lost due to a command detonated claymore in some trees. I know there was at least one tow bird owned by someone because I got called in to an area where they were operating and could not hit the target because of the trees…this was 12 November 1972, a day I will never forget. We tried not to pay much attention to F8 except when you guys would lob a 40mm CS round across the motor pool at us. Retaliation was such fun…LOL.
I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?
Same question to Jim Lawrence…??
That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them
Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
asana-
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry (sister troops) were both conducting combat operations in Military Region I until October 1972. I do know that the F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) served until October 1972 from Chu Lai to Quang Tri to Hue, Phu-Bai to the Que Son to Mo Duc and Duc Pho, establishing themselves as the premier air cav troop in Vietnam. They served as the aviation “fire brigade”, called upon time and again to conduct operations in the areas of greatest enemy threat.
The versatility of F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) was demonstrated repeatedly through it’s ability to conduct short-notice unit moves with no loss of operational efficiency. Deploying from Marble Mountain to Da Nang Main in late August 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry detached two cav teams to Chu Lai on September 15, 1972 to suppress a serious enemy offensive in the Mo Duc-Duc Pho area. They stayed in Military Region I until the end of the Easter Offensive and all threat of any enemy offensive was suppressed.
On October 15, 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry received orders to redeploy to Bien Hoa, in Military Region III. (F Troop, 9th Cavalry worked closely with F Troop, 8th Cavalry and I am sure they moved to Bien Hoa at the same time.) Seventy-two hours later, F Troop, 8th Cavalry teams were conducting combat operations against an enemy build-up in the Saigon-Bien Hoa area. From Xuan Loc to Tan An to Lai Khe to Tay Ninh, the specter of the Blue Ghost covered Military Region III like the monsoon rain.
APPENDIX 2 (12th Combat Aviation Group) to ANNEX B to USARV/MACVV SUPCOM After Action Report
“Purpose: To report significant activities and planning involved in the stand down of the 12th Aviation Group during the period 1 November 1972 through March 1973.”
“The combined average monthly flying hours of the two air cavalry units, (F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry), flown while accomplishing their primary mission, exceeded all other air cavalry averages in Vietnam.”
“The aircraft loss rate was the lowest in Vietnam even though the combat activity in MR III had increased sharply.”
So, I don’t believe that either F Troop, 8th Cavalry nor F Troop, 9th Cavalry were involved in the September 1972 event that you have explained…. but I would not count them out. There were a few other air cavalry units in Vietnam then… some pulling out at that time.
Very few air cavalry remained until the Ceasefire and beyond, (a VERY dangerous time to be in Vietnam as well.)
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry were two who remained until Ceasefire and some troopers stayed even longer, until March 1973.
What is so frustrating is that even books and references that have ‘authority’ have so much information wrong about units and our brave troopers who served in COMBAT after “all the combat troops came home” in 1972.
(Note: The 1st Cavalry (Airmobile), all of them, were noted to fly into any situation, no matter how dangerous and intense to provide medevacs and assistance to troopers on the ground.)
Asana –
In reply to
“I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?”
I have done more inquiring and have found that:
Yes, F/9 Cav was in III Corps-Third Regional Assistance Command (TRAC) at that time.
Which supports what Dave Wallace said:
“That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them.” – Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
(thanks!)
The only Cav unit at Bien Hoa, 27 September 1972 was F/9. I showed up there my first day on 28 September 1972….F/8 showed up in October as I recall.
Asana… D Troop, 3rd Squadron, was the 5th Cavalry’s only air cavalry troop. They departed Vietnam along with the rest of 3rd Squadron on 8 November, 1971.
I would like you to contact me if possible. I was with Ftrp for a short time. We were hooched up with the Browns if I am not mistaken. I cant remember how we wound up getting assigned to Long Bien and what the unit designation was there. I was medivaced in mid august.
Okay guys… Anything I got wrong about F/9 – I apologize.
I know someone who will be a great help here.
Be right back.
III Corps-Third Regional Assistance Command (TRAC)
F/9 Cav 30 Jun 71-26 Feb 73 (Air Cav)
I was an Avionics Mechanic with F Troop until January 73. No doubt worked on your bird.
Tom were you with F/8 or F/9? I knew of one guy and African-American fellow named Anderson, he was avionics, we got to F/9 together in September.
I’m a student in High school studying Vietnam, and I think everybody is partly right. Yes, there were SOG/MACV units in Vietnam well after August 1972, and also several air units, and infantry units. But, correct me if I’m wrong, the last MAJOR and WELL KNOWN pullout of troops was in August, 1972, I believe.
Task Force Garry Owen stood down on June 26, 1972. However, that was the “official” date. I know. I was in that ceremony.
There were some additional infantry combat patrols that went on after that but none that I am aware of follwoing the closure of FSB Spudis, which was just outside of Bien Hoa. That closure was about mid-to late July 1972.
We did a police call of the firebase while the Vietnamese congregated outside the berm. We our last vehicle pulled out, the Vietnamese came in and dumped all of the 55 gallon drums and started foraging.
I have no knowlege of any active, offensive infantry GROUND combat missions following that, although there may have been some. I am aware of defensive security operations around the major bases and both fixed and rotary wing missions.
I was with Bravo 1st 12th and then Bravo 1st 7th. I was in the Blues after that. Bunker Hill and Grunt II were the two firebases I spent most of my time at. We spent some time at Long Than north (I am not sure if that is the right spelling) Thing changes so often for the short period of time I was there. I was medivaced with mixed malaria August 15 of 72. I had been sent to the reaction force at Long Bien. I have seen several posts regarding Spudis but for the life of me cant place it. I was on the security force when we closed down a small firebase i thought was named Mars but not sure if that was the right name. It was pretty small. It seems like for the last month or two i was there no one really knew what was going on.
Larry Overstocker: You asked about Firebase Spudis. Before that it was Firebase Fiddler’s Green and occupied by the 11th ACR. I have pictures of the 11trh ACR moving out and also a picture of the sign at the base that had Spudis’ history on it.
If it means something to you, send me your email address and I will forward the pciture to you.
I am not sure I know or remember anything about Spudis. I did operate out of Bunker Hill and Grunt II. I pulled security while a small firebase was torn down. I thought the name was Mars but maybe I didnt have the name right. When the 7th stood down I was transferred to Ftrp 9th at Fort Courage Bien Hoa. I was at Bien Hoa 1 aug 72 when the airbase got rocketed. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I could see them coming up from the ville. I had four months in country and was the senior man on that section of the berm. I was medivaced mid august with mixed malaria. Email is unclelar52@yahoo.com
I flew Air Cav (H Troop 10th Cavalry) all the way through 1972 until five minutes before the cease fire which I believe was Jan 27 1973. we were flying out of Phan Thiet at the time TDY from Lane AHP.
We lost SGT Robert Lee Frankes the next to last day of the war to enemy ground fire.
Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
All of us need to back off and give credit to the people who remained in country while everyone else went home. The troops that stayed behind were in as much danger as anyone else we all did our duty and were proud of our service no matter where we served.
The last combat troops of the United States were pulled out of South Vietnam on 29 March 1973. 8,500 American civilians, embassy guards, and defense office soldiers remained in Saigon. The largest helicopter evacuation in history occured on 29 April 1975 when 7,000 Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from the US Embassy in Saigon. Saigon fell the following day to the North Vietnamese troops.
Absolutely right!
Thanks for that. My father was part of the 1975 evac, although I was told it was April 30th by the time he was actually out of Vietnam. I’ve never been able to get any answers about what he was doing at the time. All I know is he was in 3rd group and was supposed to come home but he pulled some strings to get assigned TDY so he could stay there. I’ve tried on and off for years to learn about those last few years but so much has been redacted.
3rd Group would be odd as that was a 5th Group war.
I know I am a late-comer to this thread but since I came across it by accident, I wanted to add a bit of info. I was assigned TDY to RTAF Takh Li in Thailand with the various iterations of aircraft. Even though US Air Units were activated and deactivated/moved in theater and out of theater, there were always support units flying missions out of Thailand. My aircraft was F-111′s. Even though the peace accords were signed, we still flew unacknowledged flights into the DMZ for purposes of recovery/demolition of classified aircraft electronic equipment. The last time, in August of 1974, the chopper I was in took a direct hit while we were preparing to land. Casualties were heavy but the guys from 11th Combat Aviation Group were the ones who got us survivors out. Helluva great pilot and braver guys I can say I never knew. I owed my 20 year old rear end to them. I’m sorry that it took all these years for me to recognize them for what they did. The government wouldn’t acknowledge the flights. To all who served in the army, and saved us Air Force guys…thanks and God Bless.
Mike Welch
The 11th CAG went home in 1972.
Thanks for the reply Jack…My memory has gotten fuzzy with age..I may be mistaken about the CAG but they were defintely Army and if I remember right, the patch was an eagle with either lightning bolts or arrows(blue?)….anyway wanted an opportunity to say thanks after all these years. God Bless.
Mike
i was with eco. 14th inf.,long binh ammo dump from june to nov. 1972.does anyone rember aug.13 72 when 11 vc sappers hit the ammo dump. i was the one that sat out there all day while the bunkers were cooking off as an f/o. stood down nov. 72, wound up in pleiku with h trp.17yh air cav.. was with inf. plt. for a short while. then sent across the airstrip to the nung compound where i finished the rest of my tour. stood down march of 73
I was at Long Bien when the ammo dump went up. I thought it was August 7th though. I was at Bien Hoa on August 1 when they hit the air base. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I was medivaced to 3rd fld hosp Saigon I thought the 13th or14th and was medivaced stateside with mixed malaria. I served with 1st 12th, 1st 7th (Task Force Gary Owen) Ftrp 9th and dont remember what the last unit at Long Bien was just it was hhc of a combat aviation unit as reaction force.
I was there – I was the one that called in the artillery on the cong that day.
Hi
Do you remember when the ammo dump blew on Fire Base Fiddlers Green later call Fire Base Spudus? The base was just out side the green line of Bein Hoa. I think it was the spring of 72 or early summer?
I’d really would like to know the dates if someone can remember.
can’t r. s.
fred
I have some dates for October through January of rocket attacks and mortar attacks at Bien Hoa.
October 26, 1972 – The military command in Saigon reports that Communist forces have initiated the largest number of assaults throughout the country of any 24-hour period since the 1968 Tet Offensive.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Two, Page 35
Bien Hoa was attacked by indirect fire 17th &19th December 1972
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Page 127
On 16 December ARVN forces began an eight battalion operation in the Bien Hoa rocket belt, following rocket attacks on Bien Hoa Air Base. Five 122mm rockets were captured, and several minor contacts made near launch positions.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Three, Pages 107
The enemy used harassing rocket attacks on air installations during the period from October through January, striking DaNang, Tan Son Nhut, and Bien Hoa on several occasions….
I have a friend who was there then… I can ask him if one of those attacks were by the ammo dump when he was there… I seem to remember him saying so.
Look up the 1972-1973 Command History if you need more information about Bien Hoa in the Spring or Summer of 1972. I may be able to help you if you need the help… just ask.
Also… what was your troop/unit?
Look up their USARV/MACV SUPCOM After Action Reports. That will help you know where they were stationed and when. Their After Action Reports may also include additional reports of rocket and mortar attacks that the unit encountered.
Hope this helps.
Assigned to Task Forse Garry Owens Co E 1/7th. Left the green line Aug 13th and few home on the 15th. The last FSB for us was Grunt 2 a few clicks out of Bien Hoa. Our ammo dump went up to in late July or early Aug. Was on morning tower there when on Aug 1st the 122′s went over us and into the Airbase were the Marines were musted for payday in a hanger. Worked out of FSB Elderidge, Cross Sabers, Mase, Morter Hill, Bear Cat and Spudis when we took it over from the 11th ACR. T54′s with a click.
Went back in 06 and walked the old green line for the last time
Garry Owens MF’ers. Glad you we with us.
Phil Purdy
Evergreen Colorado
My memory is very shady of some things because they were changing so quick. Aug 1 1972 the first rocket of the attack on Bien Hoa airbase hit just in front of me on the green line between the ville and the base. Could actually see them coming from the ville. Had come to Bien Hoa from Grunt II. Had just helped close up Mars. Went to Ftrp 9th Cav Sabre Blues then to Long Bien. Left mid august and was hospitalized till early November with mixed malaria.My friends took care of me for a couple days until I could get medical attention. They took me to see a Frankenstein movie. Never forget thier care but names escape me. Bless them
Hello Fred. I can check on that at my reunion next month because several of my buddies were on that base when the dump blew. My thought is that it wans’t Spudis but a different one. I was on patrol in the field at the time. A firefighter was killed when it went up.
We ran into a bunker and got a KIA. When I sent back for a catering charge what I got was 10 sticks of C-4, which was sufficient to do the job.
My friend, Phil Purdy, Co E, 1/7 just posted above here and perhaps he is correct about which firebase it was.
As I said, i will check and get back to you.
@Fran….1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut..
I remember this particular rocket attack well. Got my ass blown off a conex by a delayed 122 which landed short of the flight line. Most of the rockets were walked up the runways on the Air Force side, the BIG voice blaring…like we did not know the rockets were already falling.
Phillip Purdy – I think I went to the NCO academy with you in the summer of 71 at Benning.
no, larry,it was aug.13th. i have commo reports from long binh h/q..i have been trying to find my unit records for over twenty years. just before the last of us pulled out in nov.,the 1st sgt. got myself and about for or five others out in front of the orderly room with a stack of papers in his hand. he said that we were put in for these awards and he didn,think we deserved them.he through them in the burn barrel. been trying to find the x/o lt. stenrum ,or anhbody i was with,or photos of that day when the sappers hit. it was 11sappers.
Fran
Thanks for the info it is a start. btw I was in the 3rd Brigade (Separate) 1st Cavalry Divison (Airmobile) Delta Company 1st Battalion (Airmobile) 7th Cavalry from December 1971 – June 1972
I was a 60 gunner- Had 2 missions on/with the Point Team also part time mailman I flew back to Bien Hoa to get the company mail at times. Also a 3rd Field Hospital Siagon patient for a few months and finishing my Army carreer with a 10 month hospital stay at Fitzsimmons Army hospital Denver Colorado.
Fred, you were with D 1.7? Who was the Company Commander at that time? I was with them (attached) and A Company as well.
Hey SGM Bob
The Company Comannder was Captain James Whittaker, the Command Srgt Major (E10) was Westmoreland youngest man with that rank in the army (39 yrs old) at that time. BTW I took a camera on a couple missions and have a pretty good photo album. I and willing to share the pic’s with those interested. Also I made about 6 to 8 copies of same pic’s for guys in my platoon in 1972. So if you have some of those pictures you know me.
Fred, I have to reply to my own post as this site doesn’t permit me to reply to you. I can’t recall the name of the A Co Commander right now but he was a good looking blond guy. I can’t say that I remember Whittaker. The Ban Co was LTC Hodges. I don’t know the CSM but you must have made a typo because there are no E-10s. He was 39 at the time, eh? I made SGM at 36.
The D Co Commander was Tony Witter. I have his email address. The C Co Commander lives in Colorado and ran for US Congress the alst rlection cycle but didn’t win.
If anyone has some dates or names please contact me. When 1st of the 12th left and we were combined into 1st of the 7th (Task Force Garry Owen) things started to get very confusing. I remember on log day in the bush one trooper got a newspaper clipping from his mom that said there were no more combat troops in the field. The nearby artillery strike must have been a figment of our imagination. Places I was are Bunker Hill, Grunt II, Mars, Bien Hoa, Long Bien.
My parents saw me on the evening news getting on a UH-1 going to the field from Crossed Sabers AFTER it was reported there were no more combat troops going out on offensive missions.
We called the 11th CAG patch the “Chicken on a stick Patch”
H Troop 10th Air Cav and H Troop 17th Air Cav were there through the Cease fire in late Jan 73. I lost a good man Sgt Robert Lee Frakes the next to last day of the war.
Also was at Long Than* Not sure of the spelling on that. I had some black hats made up for the Task Force Garry Owen guys
I’m trying to debunk someone I highly suspect is a “veteran poser”. Can anyone give me dates that would be the LATEST that any NEW regular troops would have ARRIVED in Vietnam?
I’m in a hurry right now… but I DO KNOW someone who arrived in Vietnam in September 1972. US ARMY (Air) Regular Army. A lot was going on in Vietnam then. THIS IS VERIFIED.
What is this person telling you?
There is a lot that so many of us do not know about this war, unless we were there.
Fran, I arrived in country on 28 September 1972, through Camp Alpha, Long Binh and Plantation, eventually ending up at Bien Hoa, finally settled with Fox9.
I have known of several fake NamVets including one who claimed to have gone on a “reforgery” to Vietnam. Obviously had no idea what Reforger is. And another who was actually the president of the area PowMia group.
I was stationed at Bien Hoa AB from 20 May 1972 until 30 January 1973 when I left. The parent unti was MAG-12 from Iwakuni, Japan commanded by Colonel Macho. No shit.
There was an explosion in or around an ammo or bomb dump a few days on either side of 10 September 1972, if memory serves.
The biggest rocket attacks I recall were in August 1972.I totally forgot the one on 26 or 28 January unless that post referred to 1972.
I seem to recall a brand new Marine being assigned to our unit on or about September 1972. I think that he was 18 years old, which would make him one of the youngest Vietnam Veterans I can think of.
There were two rocket attacks, the second one, I believe in January was by far the largest. Our flight line at F/9 was hit by 4, plus the short round that damned near got me. The rest were ‘walked’ up and down the runways on the Air Force sides, a couple hit the revetments as I remember. We had a clear view of the attack from across the base. The BIG VOICE blaring !!! The one in December as I recall was not as large. We had captured a little VN girl coming through the ‘wire’ and the decision was to let her go, she came back around 0430, the rockets started to fall a few minutes later.
larry, reforgers are nato war games held in germany once a year. my first one was with b co. 4/63rd armor.same year back from nam. reuped feb. 74. wound up with h co. 2/2nd acr for second and third reforger. my fourth, fifth and sixth reforgers were with hht 4/69th out of mainz germany. forgot,2/2nd was out of bamberg. left germany four days after comming off my last reforger in 78. got out of the army in feb. 80. deita,1/3rd cav, ft bliss, texas.
Yes David I know what they are but the fake NamVet didnt. He claimed to have been on one to RVN. I was medivaced with mixed malaria in mid August of 72 and left hospital at Great Lakes Naval Hospital in early November. My state side unit was 1st Inf. at Fort Riley. They were preparing for REFORGER. So I did get to tour the lovely German countryside from an open jeep. While I was there I ran into several of the people I served with from 1st Cav. It was actually very interesting as I got to see a lot of the country and the various cultures it held.
i,ve met a few of those nam wanna be,s myself. i haven,t seen or heard from anybody i was in nam. with. i,ve been searching for years.
What a wonderful world we live in we all know that the only thing that we can count on when it comes to our government is either an out and out lie or a greatly stretched truth.
I to was stationed at Danang Air base 1972-1973. I was with the Royal Coachman. We had many flights that were single bird flights. I flew many flights as a door gunner. I was shot at a couple of times walking to or from my hooch going out to walk, pick up cigarettes go to the NCO club. I was also shot at more then once as a gunner. Now I was not a ground fighter so if the enemy would have had better aim my death would not have been acceptable because I was not a ground fighter? I know of at least one bird the went down with 5 on board the 4 man crew and a macv Officer. They were not ground ponders and were KIA’s Do they count? they were shot down well into 1973. Oh well who cares? The families and me. We were being shot at Well into 1973……The US knows and does nothing about it.so it must be OK..
i remember when kontum got over run. we watched the fireworks that night from camp holloway.we were wanting to go up there to help them,but they wouldn,t let us. if i remember right, it was during the CEASE FIRE….
I was at 1st Cav training center when a planeload of very surprised tow missile crews arrived in their jeeps. Still had stateside fatiques on. They were going north to hit the armor being used in the easter offensive.
I stumbled onto this site and am glad that I did. I was a NCOC “speedy 5″ that got to Vietnam June 1972. I enjoyed reading the emails from people that were in the same places at the same time as me. I went in country at Saigon/Camp Alpha then to A Co 1/7th. at Bien Hoa, got transferred to C co1/7 company after the stand down ceremony at Bien Hoa where I was awarded my CIB. I remember hearing about the ammo dump. I was on the Green Line when the Marine pilots got hit during a mortar attack. (I have a few slides of that attack that I shot the next morning while smoke was still billowing. I was in and out of Grunt II and Bunker Hill FSB’s and conducted missions and patrols out of them. I got sent to E Co 14th. Inf. then C co 87th Inf. at Long Binh. Transferred to 277th. S & S Bn at Camp Horn Danang It was indeed a very busy time. I have in my posession to this day copies of orders from Ft. Leonard Wood all the way through my discharge in Jan. 73 at Ft. Carson. What a hell of a ride for a 20 year old kid from the Ozarks of southern Missouri. Thanks to all of you for your emails and most of all thanks for your service. Welcome Home!
Roger:
We just finished our reunion of E Co 1/7 in Orlando last month.
Give me the names of some of the guys in 1972 to “vet” (no offense, just performing due diligence) you and I’ll pass on the information if you want.
The next reunion is in two years in Green Bay.
My mistake. I thought you said E Co. I was also with A Co and D Co during that time. Who were the Company Commanders of A Co and C Co then?
Robert T. Schovilie was the Captain of C Co. 1/7 on 13 Aug. 72 on my Installation Clearance Record.
My Plt. Leader was a guy named Cook from Alabama or Louisianna. I also remember the 1st.Sgt’s driver was a Stephen Kelley. A guy named McSwain comes to mind also
I was in A Co for 1 month then went to C Co for a stint.
I have names of 33 1/7 troopers that were awarded the C.I.B. at the same time as me.
Somewhere in my collection of stuff I have 3 of the 1st Cav magazines from 1972 as well as a Stars & Stripes article about the 87th. Inf. Div.pulling the last infantry mission in Vietnam. I was on that one is why I kept the article. I imagine that a lot of units can claim that same task.
Thanks for the replies that you sent. Roger
A very small world. I was looking up facts about the 1/7 Cav in 1972 Vietnam and came across this site. I too was at FB Grunt 2 and also FB Crossed Sabers. I was in E Co, mortars. as a squad leader. I vividly remember the ammo dump explosion and the rocket attack on Bien Hoa airbase. I do believe the battalion commander was Col. Hodges. I also provided security for the base doctors when going on Medcaps to the local villages to provide medical treatment for the sick and malnourished. Also attended NCO school, Ft. Benning graduating May ’71. I also was part the Standdown ceremony when the colors were encased. Thanks for the forgotten memories.
Bob, we’re you at the reunion in Orlando in February?
No I did not attend. I just found this site yesterday. Being able to attend reunions is problematic for me as I am now retired and living in the Philippines. Funny though. I found the people and country here to have many similarities as Vietnam.
Garry Owen to all my buddies!
Next one is Green Bay in 2014.
Just to be clear, I’m talking about E Co, 1/7 reunion. Pat Jones, Larry Berber and others.
“SGM Bob Zornes says:
4/17/2012 at 1:33 pm
3rd Group would be odd as that was a 5th Group war.”
I don’t know much about him, just a handful of details. I know he was in 3rd group but no clue what other units since obviously that wouldn’t be the only one he was ever with. When I was with the father of my kids, I met Lt. Col. Dennington (around 1995-1996, a chaplain at that point), once at some fancy dinner/ball thing, once for the 10k Army birthday run on Ft. Bragg, and the last time at the commissary. I know he served in Vietnam with my father, got a couple ‘hero stories’, one was where my father got a silver star for hand-to-hand combat, something about crossing a river with his squad and VC came out of nowhere while most of them were still in the water.
Where I get more fuzzy is the timeline. I’m pretty sure he started off in Ft. Benning, then went to Ft. Sam Houston for awhile, then to Ft. Bragg for awhile, then two years in Vietnam from 1966-1969 with some time off in the middle of that and that’s when I know he was in 3rd group because that’s the only thing I still have from him besides a picture (paperwork about his silver star), then he was moved around a lot between Ft. Bragg, someplace in Germany, and some shorter trips to Vietnam and I’m pretty sure he was just doing medical stuff for those last few years.
After all that mess, he came home, I was born in 1976, he completely disappeared in 1977.
I retired from Special Forces and am involved with different SF groups. If you’d like to send me what you have (i.e. name, etc.) I can post it up for you and see if anything hatches anywhere.
There are other ways to get information “through channels”, too.
My email address is bob@falcorp.com.
We can communicate that way if you wish to proceed.
Read the April 2012 VFW Magizine. It has a 4 page write up on Vietnam 1972. Very little about the grunts but Task Force Garry Owen in mentioned. Has the last infantryman KIA. Worth the read.
whats with all the b btry, ed bn and the other . just wondering.
Huh?
LOL—Classic CSM/SGM comment–no doubt accompanied by a SGM glare. God Bless the NCO corp–the back bone of the US Army!
Garry Owens SGM
Dave Wallace
LTC (ret)
D-229 AHB TF Garry Owens First Cavalry Division Apr 72-July 72
H Troop 10 Air Cavalry 17th AVn BDE July 72-Feb 73
LTC Wallace:
We might well have crossed paths if you flew the An Loc missions because I see you were with the 229th April through July. I was with the “Blues” for part of that. I mostly flew in circles watching the Pink Teams work out and waiting for somebody to go down as we had recovery duty to get the pilots out and destroy the aircraft.
I still recall one aircraft that I’ve tried to find the pilot(s) of as I flew in it several times. Does the number 106 mean anything to you?
Also, small world … I live only a few miles from Bruce Crandall.
Garry Owen, Sir.
SGM Zornes,
Blue Max did a helluva job during the Easter offensive bearing the blunt of the fight around An Loc. I had the honor of flying with CPT Bill Causey of Blue Max later in 72 up in II Corp. A lot of the Cav pilots from D/229th were transferred to H Troop 10th Cavalry at Lane AHP near An Son late July 72.
I flew snakes and was shot down 23 Jun 72 near Quon Loi. Took a hit at 3500 feet from a large antiaircraft weapon and pretty much went straight down. I was in the front seat with CPT Paul Lent as my back seater. We caught a lucky break and a B 229th slick pulled us out after about 10 minutes on the ground.
I was and still am very proud of the PUC that TF Garry Owens won at An Loc.
Thanks for your service SGM. Life has been pretty good for this old soldier–sounds like it has been for you as well.
Garry Owen,
Dave Wallace
I’m glad you got out. The first two things they told me about those birds was: 1) never stand in front of the rocket tubes while trying to rescue the pilots and 2) don’t try cutting through the canopy by striking anywhere other than right on the edge of the plexiglass.
I can personally attest to how close that air support was when one of the rockets kicked up a rock and it hit me in the wrist.
Did you know the pilot that went down near An Loc and was interred at the Tomb of the Unknowns? He went down during the Easter offensive. I found out later that his DNA matched a family out here in Hoquiam, Washington.
All in all, life has been pretty good here, too. My wife is about to retire and the last of four grandchildren we raised will graduate in June.
Thank you for your service, Colonel.
By the by …
Are you hooked up with the Yahoo! group 229th? If not, I can send you the link but I don’t want to post it here so send your email address to me at bob@falcorp.com.
Just replied to you via your email SGM Thanks!
Mr. Overocker,
What unit were you assigned to in RVN?
To Dave Wallace. My first unit in RVN was 1st of the 12th. I joined up with them from the training center and went out to Bunker Hill. I got a nasty sunburn stringing concertina. We went on three day R&R to Vung Tau right after joining them. When they left I went to 1st of the 7th and we were mostly at Grunt II. When the 7th stood down went to Ftrp 9th. From there went to Long Bien. I came down with malaria while in the reaction force ready room. This all happened from April to August of 72. I was Popeyes RTO at Bunker Hill when he shot himself in the foot during John Wayne “Cowboys” movie. Was at Long Than* with 7th.
After reading these posts I am more bouyed by the fact WE knew we were there and what we were doing while the government denied we were there at all. Viet Nam almost cost me my life and there is no mention of any of it on my DD214.
No mention of ????
Larry,
I’m getting old–just read the post again and saw that you were with F/9th Cav as well as others.
Just found this site. Pretty cool. I was a machine gunner Bravo Co. 1st/7th firebase Crossed Sabers, Spudis and Grunt II. Was on Grunt when ammo dump blew – was setting claymores with Sgt. Goolsby (sp?). Was also there for the rocket attack at Bin Hoa in Aug. 72 – left soon after – was among some of the last of the combat ground troops to leave. I remember the guy getting newspaper clip from parents about no more ground troops being in Vietnam. Made us wonder, if that was true – what were we doing there?
FYI – Your former Commander ran for Congress and lives in Colorado. Unfortunately, he wasn’t elected.
I recall sharing an article from my hometown about the combat troops no longer being in the field but that was with either Co A or Co D guys.
To RMontoya. I was a 60 gunner with 1st of the 7th also. When you mentioned the guy getting the newspaper clipping was it on log day in the bush? We had a guy pull it out of the envelope and that was the headline of the clipping and she had wrote on it “Does this mean you?” Or words to that effect.
What about the classified recovery team I was on from the 101st Airbourn Division that came in early 1974 to try to find and get POWs and body remains, which I still have nightmares about. There is no record or info I can find on this Special Operation. Aside from that, They have conviently lost my records and pick up from when I was sent to Germany. Its like my first 2 or more years don’t exist. I have tried for 7 years or more now to get something but they tell me to forget it if they don’t have a record of it. I am now beeing treated for MS,High BP, Type 2 diabetes, severe depression, Anxiety, Panic Attacks, sleep apnea and breathing, now using a CPAP, Pain, increased sensitivity to heat and sun light, blurring of my vision, double vision, fatigue, PTSD and others. I am 100% disabled, house bound and require aid and attendance provided by my wife. The Doctors say most all this came from exposure to Agent Orange but since they have no records, I am not service connected so my wife and I suffer and try to make it as best as we can. I have a back injury where I crashed and burned on a jump but there again there is no record. My current MRI and X-Ray show the injury. Do any of you remember this mission or anything about it. There was a MP group when we got to Saigon but my memory is so messed up I can’t remember who they were. My code name for the mission was “Bear”.
Well, don’t you have any orders with other people’s names on it from the unit you were in the 101st with? Who was the unit Commander? Where did you deploy from? Where did the recovery team go in-country?
The VA will accept testimonials from people that were there and can confirm your presence in-country.
There shouldn’t be any reason a mission like this would be classified at this point.
Sgt. White, my husband’s DD2-14 did not show how long he really stayed in Vietnam and where and who with later after Ceasefire. There was the Four Party Joint Military Commission and the ICCS which formed after Ceasefire and lasted until March 29th 1973. Their purpose was to help exchange POWs and recover remains interred in Communist territory. Record-keeping was poor at that time because of lack of Administration and how the US was trying to get out quickly. I found one page in the 1972-1973 Command Histories regarding these missions. I suggest going on-line and seeing if there is any reference to these missions in 1974. (I do not know IF there is a Command History for after 1973.) ALSO! I was able to have it confirmed that my husband was in Vietnam after Ceasefire and after his DD2-14 stated by going over his DA-20… It shows he was not stateside for three months after he was suppose to be and that he left Vietnam March 25, 1973. I texting this and reciting from memory… hope it might help some.
Also, I learned so much about this time and these missions from… my sister-in-law, brither-in-law and mother-in-law. I had them write notarized written testimonies of the things that my husband told them when he just came back from Vietnam. He can’t remember much either, but it really impact him. Because of their testimonies, the Command Histories speaking of these missions and times, and my husband’s DA-20 confirming that my husband was ‘missing’ for three months at that time… the VA now acknowledges that he was there then.
looking for info. on 12 April 72 Sgt. Marvin Lynn Biscamp was K.I.A. Another man was wounded at the same time.Sorry to say i cant quite remember his name,been a long time can anyone help me out.
I sent an email to Biscamp’s former Commander that did the eulogy. I’ll let you know if he replies.
Fred, here is his name: DALE BURTON MOILANEN. He was killed February 1, 1972, 6 weeks after he arrived in-country.
to fran they can never find your dd-214 till they want to , they are 800,000 claims behind as we talking, two yrs they say to me hold on we are working on it
To R Montoya
Was Sgt Biscamp with the Delta company 1/7th? I remember taking over a NVA bunker complex about April. I was moving out with the point team when another GI past me on the way to guard duty. It was down a hill toward a water hole. On his way there a NVA regular shot the GI in the face. I remember see the body bag next to Captain (James) Witter while he was on the horn calling for a helicopter. I have a few more memories about what happened if this is the right GI.
Fred: OMG, I just got chills all over. The guy that originally headed out that way was me. I was the engineer that rappelled in to blow those bunkers. I needed to dig a cat hole and make a deposit but I decided to go into one of the bunkers and do it there.
While I was there, a fairly new Shake and Bake sergeant straight out of NCOC took out a relief for the OP and took four in the head and hest. For some time that thought was that it was me that was shot as I was the last one anybody remembered going out that way.
If you recall, the bird that brought me in flew around quite sometime as the dinks were popping smoke in the area and the pilots swere trying to confirm who was who. I burned my gloves coming down. When I got down, there were two guys in D Co from Washington. One was Ed Nelson from a town called Walla Walla and nobody belived that he came from a town by that name. I went to a small, private college there and eventually went to Ed;s wedding about 1973.
The other guy was from Bremerton, where I grew up and still live near today. I’ve never been able to recall his name.
The commander wasn’t James Witter, it was Tony Witter. James took over a little later.
Sheesh! I thought maybe we had crossed paths somewhere and now you just recalled this KIA. I think it was about February 1972 and it was D Co. Biscomb was either B or C.
I also wound up walking point for several missions for D Co as I had more time out there than many of the infantry guys.
SGM, We had taken a bunker complex and while we were waiting in a clearing for the engineers to arrive one of our guys had a nervous breakdown. I was wondering if it may have been the same mission. We also had two K.I.A. and two W.I.A. from a friendly fire in our other platoon.
Fred, here is the name of the sergeant that was killed that day:
DALE BURTON MOILANEN.
He was killed February 1, 1972, 6 weeks after he arrived in-country after completing NCOC.
SGM Zornes
WOW! I got your response last nite but i couldn’t reply. I spent the nite staring at the ceiling, lots of memories of that terrible day. Yes you recall it well, I saw you repeling, heard the birds flying just over tree tops all around us. While this was happening to you, my life was unfolding. “Slim” my squad leader told me to go on guard duty at the blues. I told him I couldn’t because the point team was about to move out. I said to him to get someone else… how about a newbee that need the practice. Slim did and secounds later I heard the fire. I still to this day wonder if I would have had a better chance than the newbee. I was and still am hypervidgilent and at the time never went anywhere without my weapon on full rock and roll. I remember hearing that the killed GI had his weapon on safety. Did he think he was walking in the park… We were in the middle of a enemy Bunker Complex for god sakes. a memory burned deep
Funny what one recalls but I think I remember that there were actually 17 bunkers that day. We blew them with 40 lb cratering charges.
Molinen was actually killed after I was on the ground and unless ‘Im wrong, it was the day after I came in, sometime around the morning I think, rather than that same day because I believe I rappelled in late in the afternoon and we called for the charges the next day.
You remember seeing the body next to Tony Witter. I have burned into my memory watching him pulled out of the jungle up to the bird in a litter. I can’t remember if we took his water and ammunition, ghoulish as it sounds.
Larry: I don’t recall the incident you’re speaking of. I have no recollection of being around when anybody had a nervous breakdown.
I do remember once a Latino guy named Sanchez always wanted to carry the 60. He got his wish one mission. We passed through a muddy swamp (I wouldn’t call it a rice paddy because there wasn’t any rice growing it it, at least at the time.).
It was ass-kicking grueling with mud up to the lower part of our hips. We finally got into a grove and the commander called it quits for the day so we set up the NDP. Sanchez cramped up so bad and was screaming that we had to evacuate him. The funny part of this story is after we got into that grove, everybody checked for leeches and the guy that had been walking in front of me had one right on his penis (well, not funny for him).
Anyway, I only recall one time being in friendly fire when the tail shot up the point because the point somehow sort of doubled back around. Nobody got hit, though.
Does anybody here remember a Staff Sergeant we called “Irish”? I think he dd a couple of tours. I seem to recall that he had been busted at one point. He had a “famous” blond handlebar moustache.
We ran into a bunker complex once and Irish passed the word the point was going to recon by fire. There was some fire, then we waited. Irish came back and said they’re going to recon by grenade. We heard a couple of explosions and waited. And waited. And waited. Finally Irish came back, obviously perturbed, and said “They must be reconning by bayonet now”. Funny, at least to me, at the time.
Nobody got killed on that mission, unlike the one we talked about above, I have no recollection of how any bunkers I blew.
SGM Zornes
Your right in the timing of events, writing these shorts i seem to jump over some things.
Oh Yes I remember “Irish” a drinking man after my own heart. I seem to remember that Irish went over a firebase berm with knife in mouth to personally waste a wounded zapper. At least that was the rumor about the wildman. Do you remember a Lt. Williams. No reason you should. He held down the company rear and wanted a field asignment so bad. He got one after while and really showed his OFFICER stupidity. I think that even today i’d have a hard time not punching him. I hope he is around to read this!!! Irish and Williams got along like oil and water.
Fred: Was Williams a goofy looking Lt with a Medical Corps background?
Was Irish in D Co?
The stupidest officer I saw over there was running security for me while I mineswept the road from Spudis one morning.
I’m on the left side of the road running the mine detector and over on the left shoulder, about seven or eight meters in front of me, is this Lieutenant. I seem to recall that his branch was Medical Corps. I think he wore eyeglasses. He was a goodf looking guy.
I stopped, pulled my headphones down around my neck and said something like “Hey, Lt, do see anything wrong with this picture? If you’re gonna sweep that shoulder for me I may as well bring up the rear because you don’t need me up here.”
I went back and told my people to not ever send that dumbass out with me again.
From R Montoya to F zink no we were B co. Date was 12 May 72 we were on patrol off F.S.B. spudis it was hot lots of bush SGT. Axleys squad had been on point. We stopped and the LT. met with squad leaders.wanted to head back to the N.D.P. SGT Biscamp told Ace( (S.G.T. Axley) that he would take the point.We had taken a few steps when there was an explosion killing biscamp and wounding anouther.
To Thoses that served with amazment:
Lt Williams was tall, thinning hair and a mustche. I believe an admin background. On our first mission he decided the chopper pilots couldn’t find us by cordinances alone to pick us up.. So 5 of us where ordered to stand in an open field with six foot long red towels held over our heads waving for the gaggle. I first refused… but a direct order with threats…well I went out in the middle of the frig’in field laid down on my back put the red towel over my 16 barrel and held it up with my left arm. I figured I’d sacrafice my left arm for god and country. We got back to fire base cross sabres safely but the relationship was never the same. Friends come and go but idiots last forever
Fred: You have described the same moron I had as security the morning of that mine sweep. That is EXACTLY what he looked like.
I know there were a couple of occasions when we weren’t sure where we were so we had artillery fire a spotter round but waving red flags in a clearing? There’s a guy that escaped a frag.
I’m curious, though, where in the hell did you find six foot long red towels?????
Do you remember Doc Roberts?
Yes Irish was in D company
The red towels are more simple to discribe than: Do you remember buying solid color hammock’s from the locals. We used them to swing low and sleep off the ground. Mine was dark blue. Well the LT got some in red., Cut the tie strng from both ends and had a 6 plus foot red nylon cloth seamed on all sides. Brilliant for someone with no brains and trying to get you killed.
Yeah, I used to “swing” when I wnent out with certain companies (others wouldn’t let you). And we had to swing low in case of mortars or incoming fire.
So here’s my funny story about swinging in a hammock. When I first got to Crossed Sabers it was nothing but a piece of dried up dirt right of Highway 1. I pounded in two engineer stakes (what we call steel T fence posts in the civilian world). I had no rope so I took detonating cord (yup, THAT detonating cord– the stuff made with PETN that burns at 32,000 feet per second).
I cut two pieces to hold the hammock up, sat my butt on the hammock to swing in and the det cord sliced right through and I fell on my ass.
I used to carry blasing caps in my pocket like change. Yes, the stupid things we did when we were kids.
Doc Roberts yes the name only. Just remember him as a nice guy. Do you remember the KC named Kim? He was a North Vietnam defector. He was also a Hanoi university trained Medical Doctor. Wonderful man. kind, intellegent, bush savvy took care of you if he liked you. It only took a smile and a little respect towards him to win him over. He was so scared for the war to end and what would happen to him. Yes I wonder what did become of him?.
Doc Roberts…you’d know him. He carried a grease gun. I was with A company once and you guys weren’t far away. Something happened and the firing started. You can always tell a grease gun by the very slow pop .. pop..pop it made. Roberts went back home to Virginia and got a job working for the US Army repairing helicopters in the Washington, D.C. area that were used by high ranking civilian DOD people.
I vaguely remember the KC guy. I used to give him money to go into the ville and bring me back Ramen. I think it was 200 p. By the time Ramen became a big thing back in the states I was tired of it but it was so light to carry instead of C rats. You had to be going somewhere that had water though. You could pull up some bamboo shoot roots to flavor it with.
I have no idea whatever became of those guys. They probably ended up in re-education camps IF they were lucky. I recall working with some Cambodian scouts, too.
Now that you say grease gun i remember better. I still did not know him any more than name. He went home (back to the world) before I did and when i was in the compamy rear once “French” supply sgt about 7foot tall red hair. Tooo tall to go into the bush showed me a grease gun he had in the weapons room. Shoots 45′s if I remember right
Yes, the grease gun fires .45s. Piece of sh*t. Another friend of mine that has posted here (Phil Purdy, Co E) carried a Thompson. Also fired .45s.
The .45 caliber Grease Gun… a P.O.S. says SGM Zinkes. Well, that Sergeant Major is because you weren’t a tanker.
In early 1971 my unit in the Americal received a newly rebuilt M-48A3 battle tank from Okinawa to replace our worn out machine. The thing had been done over from the tracks up, all to original equipment standards right down to the Grease Gun in it’s clip holder on the interior turret bulkhead.
“It’s a P.O.S. ” I said to our tank commander, Sergeant Jose Rojas, the rate of fire is too slow.”
“Watch this, Gunner” he says as he proceeds to remove the recoil spring from the receiver and replace it with a spare recoil spring for one of our .50 caliber machine guns. It’s hard to describe the improvement that heavier spring made but it easily doubled the rate of fire. P.O.S. no more.
The slow rate of fire could be ramped up, for certain, but the the weapons had many other shortcomings, not the least or which is the effective range AND when you ran out of ammuntion, it was highly, HIGHLY unlikely any bird coming in to kick out ammo boxes was going to be kicking out cases of .45. Never mind the issue of reloading the magazines.
Any field weapon you can’t get resupplied with ammuniton is pretty much useless.
Well SGM, it’s like this: considering that an M48A3 tank carried three tons of fuel and ammunition the resupply of .45 ACP was, how do they say, not an issue.
And it was a very handy little gun for the driver, who being crammed into hull would have had to rely on his .45 pistol for any close encounters.
Beauty, SGN, really is in the eyes of the beholder.
Perhaps the thread morphed too much. My comments relate to carry the gun in the jungle.
SMU? S omeone M umbbled U h?….. and got volunteered for a special missions unit? is that right?