I believe there is a mistake in the Jan 2006 issue of Armchair General. The answer to question 6 on the Military Mastermind shows the American Troops leaving Vietnam in 1972. Shouldn’t the answer be B., 1973?
I throughly enjoy your magazine. Keep up the good work!
***
Steven,
Thanks for taking the time to ask this!
The question asked when the last US ground combat troops left Vietnam. We gave the correct answer, ie 1972. The last American combat unit was a task force from the 3d Bn, 21st Inf Regt and battery B, 3d Bn, 82d Field Artillery Regt which had been stationed in Danang (I commanded battery C, 3d Bn, 82d FA and B btry was our ‘sister’ battalion). These were the last US ground combat units in Vietnam and I was there when they left in August of 1972. As a matter of fact, when my unit disbanded in June 1972, we sent B Btry about 15 of our guys who stayed with B Btry until it left in August. Of note: these C btry guys took along a US flag that had flown over my firebase and put it up over the B Btry firebase where it flew until the task force departed in Aug 72. Therefore, the last American flag to fly over a US firebase in Vietnam was mine.  Some American troops (no combat troops) were still in Vietnam until they left in 1973.  Thanks again for the question.
The “Gary Owen Task Force”, a brigade of the 1st Cavalry was still in country near Saigon as a combat infantry unit in August of 1972. Probably left about the same time that month as the 82d FA elements up north.
I was also with Co A and Co D, 1/7 in 1971 and thenworked with the Blue Teams of the 229th during the Easter Offensive of 1972, mostly over An Loc, destroying downed aircraft and picking up pilots. The Garry Owen stand down was late June of 1972.
We stopped all active patrol missions within about a month or so of that. We closed down firebase Spudis sometime around July 15th or so right after my friend Robert D. Hamilton was killed on July 4th. It was the last active 1/7 firebase (after Grunt II and Crossed Sabers).
Ricardo, you say that you were with a mortar section March – May 1973? Can you tell me what unit and where you were located? I’m very interested in this because I am writing a book (my 2nd about Vietnam) about the last year of America’s involvement there: March 1972 until March 29, 1973.
How can anyone say that the last ground pounders left before April of 72. I was still on Fire Support Base Melanie until June 26 1972. When I transfered to the Garry Owen Task Force in Bien Hoa in late June of 72, we were still doing active Search and Destroy missions from Fire Support Base Green. Maybe all the upper echelon left, but I can assure you that we still a a ground presence after March 30 1972. Anyone who says anything to the contrary is either misinformed or just plain lying.
It appears, from the Order of Battle published by the VHPA, that ALL of the Air Cav Troops in Vietnam were stood down February 1973.
It is not true that all of US combat troops were out of Vietnam by 1972.
IF it was said all of the “ground” troops were out of Vietnam by 1972, that would have been closer to being correct BUT for the fact that each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry Platoon assigned.
I’ve been reading this thread with great interest. I’m working on a 2n book about Vietnam which will be set during the last year of the U.S. phase of Indochina, March 1972 to 29 March, 1973.
Among my reference works I rely heavily on Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle. According to Stanton you left RVN along with the rest of the 196th LIB on 29 June, 1972. B Battery’s assets, while it may have appeared to you to have gone to your sister battery, C / 3 / 82 FA, actually went to a newly formed Provisional Battery G / 29th FA, which was the successor to C Battery. It was that G Battery that formed a task force with 3rd Battalion / 21st Infantry, which you mention.
All that said it appears to me that any confusion as far as last combat unit in Vietnam is really a matter of “combat unit” vs. “ground combat unit.” Stanton calls the 3 / 21 Infantry (without mention to a task force) the “last U.S. Army ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam: 23 August, 1972. Under the entry for G / 29 FA he states that the battery departed Vietnam in September 1972 with no further explanation.
All that said, I’m still left searching for the last ground combat ( including aero-rifle platoons) unit, regardless of size, to turn out the lights in Vietnam.
Best to all,
Richard Vidaurri
Americal / later 196th LIB
1970-1972
Author of The Gates of the Shadow, the unlikely story of America’s last battle tank in Vietnam.
I was in Bien Hoa up until August 1st 1972 attached to the Garry Owen Task Force during the rocket attack that morning. I was sitting in the radar tower and at about 5AM when the rockets started coming in. We triangulated the position from the radar towers and dropped a bunch of artillery on them. Later that day, I was taken to the air base in Siagon for processing out of country. I left VietNam on August 5th 1972. I also served at FireBase Melanie from February through mid June of 1972. I was on the last chopper out of Melanie with the colonel when we turned it over to the ARVN.
To Mike Evenson, If you could please email me at matthew.prochaska@gmail.com. The reason being that I might have a item that you lost after you came back to the US in late 1972
I have looked and looked for those who were with Task Force Garry Owen. I was with 1st Brigride HHC and stood in the stand down cermorny @ Bien Hoe in June 1972. For those that were there remember one of the honor guards that passed out and fell forward and landed on his steel pot that fell off just before. After that there weren’t many of us left. I remember selling refigritors to the Marines that were bought in to protect our rear as we left. What a joke that was as most were new in country and we all know about newbe’s. Thanks to all the Skytroopers out there and we will all fly again together some day!
I remember somebody falling down. But what I really remember about that ceremony was a loach pilot getting an award for pulling out something like 11 ARVNs or Vietnamese civilians at one time, most of them, of course, hanging on the skids. I’m not sure but he may ahve made two different trips doing the same thing. I think their compound was overrun during the Easter Offensive.
For the last couple of days I’ve been involved in research regarding combat units in Vietnam during the last year of the American phase of the war. Several of you have given me your time and memories so that I now have a pretty clear understanding of the matter.I might add here that there is precious little published material on that last lonely American year of March 1972 through the end of March, 1973.
In the final analysis I can say that after Task Force Gary Owen departed on 22 August, 1972 there were no longer American ground combat units anywhere in Vietnam. That is not to say, however, there were no ground combat soldiers still in-country . Rifle security companies, Special Forces soldiers attached to MACV or CIA, MACV advisers, these all soldiered on until the end.
So, I was about to close out this part of my search out when I stumbled onto something intriguing: something called the Infantry Security Force (Special Guard). The only information in Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle is that this was a battalion-sized force under the direct control of MACV and later (later? later when? later how?) the Department of the Army, that it served in multiple locations, was composed of specially chosen soldiers, and was a TDA organization. The unit served in Vietnam from March 1965 until March 1973.
I have hunted all through my reference library, the Internet, old friends… and NADA. Can anyone give my any information on these folks?
Also as an interesting observation I’ve gotten the overwhelming impression that unless a soldier who served that last year had done a previous tour in Vietnam, he had no idea what the war was like in the earlier years – no clue whatsoever. But I cannot be certain of this until I hear from if reading about the experiences of the earlier Vietnam soldiers leaves you with the same impression of remoteness that reading your stories leaves in me.
I also want to say that like every soldier who served in Vietnam I have the greatest admiration for the air crews. But the challenges and the raw courage of the men who flew in Vietnam at the end are remarkable even among that already remarkable group.
This is for Al Hagen. Welcome home soldier.This may be late but it’s nonetheless heartfelt.I appreciate all you did in Nam to keep a skinny college sophmore in Mississippi safe and warm at home.You are not forgotten and I’m proud to stand tall with you.
What about air or support units? What US personnel were permitted per
the 1973 agreement? How were advisors or technical support organized
and how did they leave, right to the end in 1975?
your right some were there till 1977, read your naval historical foundation it will tell you some were there till 1978 ,someone had to clean up the mess
Dennis, are you sure of what you are saying? You of course realize that the NVA came down and deactivated all of South Vietnam in April 1975. That action alone would lead one to believe that there were no American servicemen or civilian government employees in Vietnam after that time.
Hey! Hold up there. You are refering to artillery units as being the last combat troops to leave Viet Nam. A FACT is that C Troop 10th Aero Cavalry left Viet Nam in February 1973. I don’t know if they were the absolute last unit, and I don’t want to quible about who is combat and whom are not, but I will suggest that anyone who was medivaced out of, or extracted whole from, a hot LZ would probable not doubt that helicopter crews were in fact , combat troops
Sincerly,
Rick Reavill, UH-1H Crew Chief, 176th Assault Helicopter Co 69/70, A Conpany, 158th Assault Helicopter BN, 101st Airborne, 71
Rick, this is an entry from Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby L. Stanton:
Troop H, 10th Air Cavalry, departed Vietnam 26 February 1973, was an air cavalry troop raised from the assets of Troop C, 7th Squandron, 17th Cavarly. Troop H served with the 17th Aviation Group at An while in Vietnam.
I was Infantry in an Artillery Unit that was there at air base while pull out in April 1975 so I assure you there were still grunts on the ground under hostile conditions.
The 1st Aviation Company, 1st Brigade, 1 Calvary, 12th Combat Aviation Group, F Troop 8th Cavalry was there until at least Feb 1973.
During the Easter Offensive 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry was attached to the 11th Combat Aviation Group from June 1972 to October 1972.
The U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group’s activities were closely coordinated with those of the ARVN units. This group provided essintial support with troop lift logistical support, gunships and medevacs.
F Troop, 8th Cav was there in Quang Tri, the day the Easter Offensive started. The movie ‘Bat 21′ portrays the the time as during the ‘Tet Offensive’ …this is totally incorrect. It took place and began March 29-30, 1972 in Quang Tri. The book is much better than the movie too….and it’s all true. Men of F Troop, 8th Cav gave their all and some – their lives – in the largest search and rescue ever.
Some of the F Troop, 8th Cav were kids and probably still don’t know to this day that they fought in the probably the biggest and bloodiest battle ever.
Because of the intensity of the war, most of the F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG files are not available. The service of many from F Troop are not documented.
Fran, it isn’t my intention to sound argumentative. I do have to question, however, your comments that “… because of the intensity of the war F Troop, 8th Cavalry, 12th CAG files are not available…” Then “The service of many from F Troop were not documented”
I’m not sure what that means. I have had a hell of a time getting even anecdotal evidence from that last year but I believe that’s mainly because in many American minds the war was over by mid – 1972. I have indeed only been able to find ONE non-fiction book about that period: America’s Last Vietnam Battle (Dale Andrade) and that’s only the Easter Offensive.
All that said, I cannot see why intensity should equal shoddy record-keeping. That hasn’t been the case in any other American war.
The last Air Cavalry Troops left Vietnam in 1973. They are the last U S Army conventional COMBAT forces to leave Vietnam. And, technically speaking, since each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry platoon that could be employed to fight “on the ground’ you could argue that the last conventional U S GROUND forces left Vietnam in 1973.
I was the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group from Oct ’72 to Feb ’73 and can verify this information.
Major John P. Kennedy, served 10 November 1972 to 28 January 1973 under Lt. Colonel Stanley D. Cass, 11th CAG.
No need to verify, I have the 11th CAGs After Action Report in front of me, detailing the 11th CAGs methodical consolidation down to the 62nd Aviation Company + FPJMC and ICCS Detachments, colors to USAEUR on 16 March, and finally turning out the lights on 28 March.
I am, however, happy that you responded, Major Kennedy, as the same After Action makes note that during the “pre-stand-down phase,” November 1972, a security force was formed from the Blues, the ground component of the aerorifle platoon. As they are again mentioned at the end of the report it is apparent that they stayed until the end, 28 March 1973.
Despite what Fran proclaims I’m not without a clue nor am I trying to make a point. I also agree that any combat soldiers, assigned to any unit in Vietnam should be classified as “ground combat troops.” I’m doing research for a book, my 2nd book on Vietnam, set during the last year of the American phase, 72-73, and information is hard to come by.
Now, as long as I have you on the line, Major: Is the After Action Report correct as to those Blues? And, after forming up into a security force did they ever again go on operations, SAR, anywhere outside the wire?
Thank you for responding to my post, I greatly appreciate any information that you can provide.
Richard Vidaurri
Specialist – 5 Vidaurri
Americal Division, then 196th LIB
1970-72
The massive stand down of American forces in 1972 and the subsequent reassignment of units to other headquarters resulted in some pretty shoddy records keeping. In June of 1972 I personally submitted a recommendation for the Medal of Honor for Lt. James P. McQuade. A year later I found out that it had been “lost”. There are many more examples of a lessor magnitude than this but it is indicative of what went on at that time.
F/8 went from the 196th Light Infantry Brigade to the 11th CAG to the 12th CAG in less than a year’s time.
My last assignment in Vietnam was as the OIC of the Region I Four Party Joint Military Commission Aviation Detachment stationed at Danang AFB. I left Vietnam from Bien Hoa on MArch 30, 1973.
Colonel Kennedy: Re-reading your response to my post I see that you left RVN from Bien Hoa on March 30, 1972. As that was the last day for all American soldiers to be out of Vietnam it occurs to me that it must have been a surreal experience.
Who was there to:
Out-process you?
Drive you to the airfield?
Provide security?
Did you fly out commercial or U.S. Air Force?
Where did you arrive back in the States?
It seems as if someone must have been walking right behind you turning out the lights. I am indeed impressed.
I’ve never conversed with anyone who was there the very last day so any information that you can provide will help me immensely.
g’day Richard name is Henry Gutierrez and i would like to ask you in relation to all the army documents got burn during 72 i Nam.how the USA gov.is going to recognize all the arms service for pension and medical treatments and plus…i am still waiting for 41 years for your gov.to accept my claim.the Australian gov.tells me there found record i have serve with the allied forces so they ask me to write to the DVA in USA.do you know many services members in the same situation.please let me know if you do so i can contact them and ask them for advice .
yours sincerely
Henry Gutierrez..ex-army clp medic.
Air cavalry units with the primary mission of supporting South Vietnamese Army forces were the only active Army combat units in Vietnam throughout 1972. Both the 11th CAG and the 12th CAG, (Combat Aviation Group), were there until at least Feb. 1973.
Many of these men fought, supplied logistical lift and provided medevacs in support of the ARVN troops in the biggest battle of Vietnam, ‘The Easter Offensive’ or ‘The Spring Offensive’.
‘The Easter Offensive’ began and ended in “The Second Battle of Quang Tri’. Some of these men died there.
March 29-30 1972 at Quang Tri, was the first time that SAMs and regular AAA weapons were used. The NVA introduced the Soviet-built SA-7 (Strella) heat-seeking, shoulder-fired missile, for use against low and slow-flying Allied aircraft. It was deadly, and numerous Allied aircraft losses were attributed to the weapon.
Until USAF fire power could be transported back from Saigon, (sent there from the ‘drawdown’), 1st Calvary, Combat Aviation Groups held down the fort with help from the Marines that where still there. There were still some Navy offshore that helped too later with firepower. The Army of the Republic of Vietnam, backed by the United States Army, shelled more than 80,000 tons of ordnance, the destructive capacity equivalent to almost six Hiroshima-size atomic bombs.
When the massive firepower was first unleashed, unsuspecting NVA soldiers reporting for duty were in the city at the time and Quang Tri was referred to as ‘Hamburger City’ by some that saw the aftermath.
As well, leading out of the city was still ‘The Highway of Horrors’ from when
South Vietnam had earlier lost its Quang Tri Province on May 1st, 1972 and the NVA cut down masses of panic civilians, war refugees, who were fleeing the city and got stuck at Truong Phuoc Bridge because of the traffic jam after an enemy artillery shell heavily damaged the bridge. Chaos occurred when enemy artillery began a rain of many hundreds shells from their 130mm guns on the refugees. A moment later, Communist foot soldiers attacked the crowd with infantry weapons that included mortars and grenade launchers.
When â€The Second Battle of Quang Tri’ was over, (Sept. 16, 1972 the city was taken back. On Oct. 22, 1972 Quang Tri Province firebases were secured), not one building remained standing. The intense bombing, combined with U.S. use of the Agent Orange defoliant, turned the land into a virtual moonscape.
This all took place during â€Operation Ceasefire’ when we were standing down and turning over the bases to the ARVN.
Americans still have little knowledge of this time in Vietnam and the part that brave American troops, including U.S. Army Air Calvary Combat Aviation Groups, took in it.
Richard-
No problem. The quote you mentioned that I wrote about records-keeping is from a notarized letter of a Colonel, U.S. Army, Air – Retired. He was my husband’s commander in Vietnam.
The reason records-keeping was chaotic at best was because almost everyone was redeployed back home and out of Vietnam at that time, including HQ. A skeleton crew of junior administration was left behind and later as Communications was handed over to the ARVN, communications between the Admin left behind and HQ, (which already left) was even harder to maintain for instructions to be given. (Here I am parapharsing excerpts of Command History and After Action Reports.)
The other people left behind in Vietnam we’re busy fighting an intense war.
I am familiar of the bookand author you mentioned.
Yes, the story of US Army Aviation during this time of the war has been untold, still…. and basically unknown to Americans still. That is why I having been wanting to write such a book. If Mr. Andrade is interested in helping me write this book, he can contact me and I will talk with him.
Fran, I’m a writer but I don’t know Dale Andrade. The way to contact him is to go on Amazon, find his book, and then send him an e-mail via his publisher.
Richard-
Also in answer to your question…
After F/8 was transferred from 11th CAG to 12th CAG and they moved down to Bien Hoa… At Ceasefire, everyone was trying to roll up and get out quickly. There was a mass accumalation of paperwork. It was very difficult for the skeleton crew of junior admin to know exactly what to do with it. Because of the problems in communications after Communications was handed over to the ARVN, a lot of paperwork was taken to Tan Son Nuht and burnt.
That’s what I made out of reading Command Histories and After Action Reports. When I have more time, I will post, word for word, the exact words and sources for you.
F-R-A-N!!! Please do not go to anymore trouble to unearth quotes and sources. Now, you’ve gone and made me feel like a sap who’s been questioning a nice lady’s credibility.
g’day fran,my name is henry.fran i need to ask you some question and i hope you will be able too help me in some way.i was in nam in 1971 to 1972.i was army medic with 1 fd hospt.in vang tau then i went to the USA army hospital voluntary to help to clean up and pack up at long binh,now i have write to the DVA in USA for years and they told me they can not found any records of my time of service,i then i write to the Australia DVA and also tells me they can not found any documents but they told me in a letter they can see i have service with the allied forces in nam.now that you guys keep mention about documents got destroy in Nam means that also my records got burn too.so Fran ,what happen with all the soldiers who serve in Nam means we can not claim anything even a pension,where is the best place to complain and get both government to recognize our time and services .would you be able too tell me what can i do.had been 41 years now fighting for this.feel free to send me an email.litltebird7160@hotmail.com .cheers mate.henry
An excerpt from the very well researched and written literature:
READJUSTNMENT PROBLEMS AMONG VIETNAM VETERANS
The etiology of Combat-Related Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders
By Jim Goodwin, Psy. D.
Published by Disabled American Veterans
Page 6-7
“For both World War II and the Korean War, the incidence of neuropsychiatry disorder among combatants increased as the intensity of the wars increase. As these wars wore down, there was a corresponding decrease in these disorders until the incidence closely resembled their particular prewar periods.”
However, the Vietnam experience proved different. As the war in Vietnam progressed in intensity, there was no corresponding increase in neuropsychiatry causalities among combatants. It was not until the early 1970’s, when the war was winding down, that neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase. With the end of direct American troop involvement in Vietnam in 1973, the number of veterans presenting neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase tremendously (President Commission on mental Health, 1978).”
Richard – eek, the quote you quoted was not the commander’s. (My mistake… being busy and texting.)
The commander did say however, “Due to the intensity of the war, records-keeping was chaotic at best.”
You were not being aurgumentive. It was a good question.
(I do know that on one my post that I wrote years ago on the Easter Offensive; not everything I wrote was perfect and I need to make some minor but important corrections.)
I am not sure the last troops came out in 72-73 I was a member of the 5th special forces group was reasigned to the (MACV SOG)/ CCN and as a member of this elit special observation group I was not out until around late 74-earily 75 can you shed some light on this please as i was very young and it was a long time ago i want to be sure i am right. thank you please reply to my e-mail address with any information
I served with my brother for six or seven months in 1972 at
Marble mt compound, DaNang. We were with the 11th CAG.
I WAS WITH HEADQUARTERS AND HE WAS WITH THE 282 THEN THE 48TH. His name was Morris. Did any other brothers serve together in vietnam at the same place and time?
Thank you General Truong for giving credit to the Americans that were there assisting the ARVN in the Battles of Quang Tri during the Easter Offensive until the very end and calling them by name. It means so much to me – especially since it has been the only reference that I have found on the Internet doing so.
Our own American military have given them no public credit whatsoever, these troops that stayed and fought and served long after the all of the ground troops went home in August 1972.
But you gave them credit where credit was due. Thank you.
May you rest in peace.
Ngo, Lieutenant General Quang Truong, The Easter offensive of 1972. Washington DC: U.S. Army Center of Military History, 1980.
“In addition to support provided the U.S. Air Force, I Corps forces also received much assistance from the U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group whose activities were closely coordinated with those of ARVN units. This group provided essential support with troop lift logistical support and gunships.”
Statement byJerry Morelock, Armchair General, Senior Historian
“Some American troops (no combat troops) were still in Vietnam until they left in 1973.”
You are wrong. Aviation COMBAT Groups (CAGs) were there at least until March 24, 1973 that I know of personally.
May I suggest you read a few After Action Reports or Command Histories? Something? If you do, you will see that I am correct.
Combat Aviation Groups in Vietnam were COMBAT TROOPS in EVERY sense of the word and the few left behind were fighting HARD and NON-STOP after everybody else went home until ceasefire. It was very dangerous after ceasefire as well.
Please help honor our veterans by correctly recognizing them and their sacrifices, especially as a senior historian.
According to the After Action report of the 11th CAG:
Elements of F Troop / 4th Cavalry engaged targets along the Song Tra River (Danang) on 28 January 1973. They recorded 30 KBH (killed by helicopter) in an action that ended at 0755.
The Cease Fire was effective at 08000 that morning.
So you are correct that combat troops were in Vietnam until the end, indeed the very end, 28 March 1973. Although they were no longer actively engaged in combat after the Cease Fire they were in country supporting the Four Powers Joint Military Command, and the International Commission for Control and Supervision, and indeed received hostile fire during some of those missions.
But Morelock’s post was referring to ground combat soldiers and in that he is correct – sort of – because although the last ground combat battalion left Vietnam in August 1972 there were odds-and-ends in-country until the end, and perhaps even after that.
Richard – “Odds and Ends” ?????
That makes my blood boil.
I am looking and looking for the After Action Reports from April 1972 to October 1972. I cannot find them.
11th CAG was involved upfront in the rest of the Easter Offensive that started back up June 28th, 1972.
It was not “Odds and Ends” dammit!
I know guys who were personally there including the commander who led them into battle.
“Odds and Ends”?
That is extreme disrespect to their
service and sacrifices.
You and most of America, including
Jerry Morelock and Dale Andrade have no clue.
After Action Reports… ORLLs… anything to do with that time… I cannot find online for the time period, April 1972 to October 1972. I know where to look… but I have been so busy fighting the VA because they told my husband that they did not know that there were any combat troops in Vietnam after APRIL 1972… and called him a liar. We are almost done with dealing with the VA, I hope… and I know that a book needs to written about the US Army Aviation for the time that we are discussing… but I really want to spend time with my family after the grueling fight with the VA… but it needs to be written and done RIGHT. It was NOT “odds and ends”. It was an all out war.
Fran… relax and re-read my post, specifically the last paragraph where I mention “odds and ends.” I was clearly referring to GROUND COMBAT troops, and what I meant was this: after Task Force Gary Owen stood down on 22 August, 1972 and 3rd battalion , 21st Infantry stood down one day later (thereby making it the last ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam) there were no longer any ground combat formations in Vietnam. As far as I can tell from the after action reports of the 11th and 12 the CAGs even the Aerorifle platoons (Blues) were given base defense missions.
It’s obvious that you have some very deep personal associations with the subject that are making you touchy in the extreme. Morelock and I are Vietnam Veterans. I served 18 months with the Americal Division and later the 196th Light Infantry Brigade. I’m a 100% service-connected disabled veteran, thus it’s absurd to say that that Morelock or I would dishonor anyone else who served in Vietnam.
Richard – you just don’t get it. Base Defense Missions was a part of what was going on. These guys were part of snd participated (in many ways since almost everyone was gone), in the largest enemy offensive in the entire war. I say this in complete confidence and with proof.
Yes I know about the Tet Offensive. This really is a part of the Vietnam War that needs to be better known…. And of the men who were there and fought in it.
I was flying with F Troop, 9th Cav, 12th CAG out of Bien Hoa up until February 1973. It is true many of the ‘records’ seem to be missing. I was told that what records do exist are stashed away in the DC area in a warehouse. To make my point about records. After I returned to the world and assigned to Ft. Bragg (no comment), I was awarded a DFC in a quiet ceremony in the battalion commander’s office. There is NO record of me being awarded the DFC in the records.
John Lane,
‘Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed ‘Gopher’.
â€Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed â€Gopher’.
I remember when F/8 showed up, presumably to give us a hand taking care of III Corp. I was a 67V2T (OH-58), but was a Scout in F/9 flying OH6A’s. We did not have a tow bird with us, in fact only you guy’s had a minigun mounted loach, which as I recall you lost due to a command detonated claymore in some trees. I know there was at least one tow bird owned by someone because I got called in to an area where they were operating and could not hit the target because of the trees…this was 12 November 1972, a day I will never forget. We tried not to pay much attention to F8 except when you guys would lob a 40mm CS round across the motor pool at us. Retaliation was such fun…LOL.
I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?
Same question to Jim Lawrence…??
That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry (sister troops) were both conducting combat operations in Military Region I until October 1972. I do know that the F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) served until October 1972 from Chu Lai to Quang Tri to Hue, Phu-Bai to the Que Son to Mo Duc and Duc Pho, establishing themselves as the premier air cav troop in Vietnam. They served as the aviation “fire brigade”, called upon time and again to conduct operations in the areas of greatest enemy threat.
The versatility of F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) was demonstrated repeatedly through it’s ability to conduct short-notice unit moves with no loss of operational efficiency. Deploying from Marble Mountain to Da Nang Main in late August 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry detached two cav teams to Chu Lai on September 15, 1972 to suppress a serious enemy offensive in the Mo Duc-Duc Pho area. They stayed in Military Region I until the end of the Easter Offensive and all threat of any enemy offensive was suppressed.
On October 15, 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry received orders to redeploy to Bien Hoa, in Military Region III. (F Troop, 9th Cavalry worked closely with F Troop, 8th Cavalry and I am sure they moved to Bien Hoa at the same time.) Seventy-two hours later, F Troop, 8th Cavalry teams were conducting combat operations against an enemy build-up in the Saigon-Bien Hoa area. From Xuan Loc to Tan An to Lai Khe to Tay Ninh, the specter of the Blue Ghost covered Military Region III like the monsoon rain.
APPENDIX 2 (12th Combat Aviation Group) to ANNEX B to USARV/MACVV SUPCOM After Action Report
“Purpose: To report significant activities and planning involved in the stand down of the 12th Aviation Group during the period 1 November 1972 through March 1973.”
“The combined average monthly flying hours of the two air cavalry units, (F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry), flown while accomplishing their primary mission, exceeded all other air cavalry averages in Vietnam.”
“The aircraft loss rate was the lowest in Vietnam even though the combat activity in MR III had increased sharply.”
So, I don’t believe that either F Troop, 8th Cavalry nor F Troop, 9th Cavalry were involved in the September 1972 event that you have explained…. but I would not count them out. There were a few other air cavalry units in Vietnam then… some pulling out at that time.
Very few air cavalry remained until the Ceasefire and beyond, (a VERY dangerous time to be in Vietnam as well.)
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry were two who remained until Ceasefire and some troopers stayed even longer, until March 1973.
What is so frustrating is that even books and references that have ‘authority’ have so much information wrong about units and our brave troopers who served in COMBAT after “all the combat troops came home” in 1972.
(Note: The 1st Cavalry (Airmobile), all of them, were noted to fly into any situation, no matter how dangerous and intense to provide medevacs and assistance to troopers on the ground.)
“I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?”
I have done more inquiring and have found that:
Yes, F/9 Cav was in III Corps-Third Regional Assistance Command (TRAC) at that time.
Which supports what Dave Wallace said:
“That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them.” – Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
Asana… D Troop, 3rd Squadron, was the 5th Cavalry’s only air cavalry troop. They departed Vietnam along with the rest of 3rd Squadron on 8 November, 1971.
why did you get to ride a bird out on the last day of the 175th?m i had to ride in duece&1/2.. i remember cutting the 2×4 of the building with an axe. .
I would like you to contact me if possible. I was with Ftrp for a short time. We were hooched up with the Browns if I am not mistaken. I cant remember how we wound up getting assigned to Long Bien and what the unit designation was there. I was medivaced in mid august.
Maybe the guy I was talking about was an armament’s guy. It’s been a couple of years. His name was definitely Anderson, we called him Andy. You know us Scouts were a snobby bunch and did not associate a lot with other’s in the unit, except maybe Blue Lift at times. LOL
I’m a student in High school studying Vietnam, and I think everybody is partly right. Yes, there were SOG/MACV units in Vietnam well after August 1972, and also several air units, and infantry units. But, correct me if I’m wrong, the last MAJOR and WELL KNOWN pullout of troops was in August, 1972, I believe.
Task Force Garry Owen stood down on June 26, 1972. However, that was the “official” date. I know. I was in that ceremony.
There were some additional infantry combat patrols that went on after that but none that I am aware of follwoing the closure of FSB Spudis, which was just outside of Bien Hoa. That closure was about mid-to late July 1972.
We did a police call of the firebase while the Vietnamese congregated outside the berm. We our last vehicle pulled out, the Vietnamese came in and dumped all of the 55 gallon drums and started foraging.
I have no knowlege of any active, offensive infantry GROUND combat missions following that, although there may have been some. I am aware of defensive security operations around the major bases and both fixed and rotary wing missions.
I was with Bravo 1st 12th and then Bravo 1st 7th. I was in the Blues after that. Bunker Hill and Grunt II were the two firebases I spent most of my time at. We spent some time at Long Than north (I am not sure if that is the right spelling) Thing changes so often for the short period of time I was there. I was medivaced with mixed malaria August 15 of 72. I had been sent to the reaction force at Long Bien. I have seen several posts regarding Spudis but for the life of me cant place it. I was on the security force when we closed down a small firebase i thought was named Mars but not sure if that was the right name. It was pretty small. It seems like for the last month or two i was there no one really knew what was going on.
Larry Overstocker: You asked about Firebase Spudis. Before that it was Firebase Fiddler’s Green and occupied by the 11th ACR. I have pictures of the 11trh ACR moving out and also a picture of the sign at the base that had Spudis’ history on it.
If it means something to you, send me your email address and I will forward the pciture to you.
I am not sure I know or remember anything about Spudis. I did operate out of Bunker Hill and Grunt II. I pulled security while a small firebase was torn down. I thought the name was Mars but maybe I didnt have the name right. When the 7th stood down I was transferred to Ftrp 9th at Fort Courage Bien Hoa. I was at Bien Hoa 1 aug 72 when the airbase got rocketed. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I could see them coming up from the ville. I had four months in country and was the senior man on that section of the berm. I was medivaced mid august with mixed malaria. Email is unclelar52@yahoo.com
When the rocket attack happened my hooch was located close to HHC headquarters close to the air base. All the action was on the other side of the base. We were on allert, but nothing came close to us. Lucky. my last day at Bein Hoa was Aug 22, 1972. was sent to Tan Son Nha to catch my ride to the real world 5 days later. As best as I can remember not even a thank you when I got home. bother by that even today!!
Al Hagen: Welcome home. I think the way returning veterans from “our” war were treated has been the reason things are so changed for the good now. People remember that and surely some carry a guilt over it.
Thanks Bob!!
I have read a lot of the discussion about the last man out. Although it’s important to know whne we were really out, all that matters is that all of us that came home never let those in charge forget those that didn’t go home to loved ones. I wasn’t until about 10 years ago that I stood up and was counted and I am not setting down untill all are accounted for. And that from all wars!!. nuf said, welcome home to all!!
I flew Air Cav (H Troop 10th Cavalry) all the way through 1972 until five minutes before the cease fire which I believe was Jan 27 1973. we were flying out of Phan Thiet at the time TDY from Lane AHP.
We lost SGT Robert Lee Frankes the next to last day of the war to enemy ground fire.
All of us need to back off and give credit to the people who remained in country while everyone else went home. The troops that stayed behind were in as much danger as anyone else we all did our duty and were proud of our service no matter where we served.
The last combat troops of the United States were pulled out of South Vietnam on 29 March 1973. 8,500 American civilians, embassy guards, and defense office soldiers remained in Saigon. The largest helicopter evacuation in history occured on 29 April 1975 when 7,000 Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from the US Embassy in Saigon. Saigon fell the following day to the North Vietnamese troops.
Thanks for that. My father was part of the 1975 evac, although I was told it was April 30th by the time he was actually out of Vietnam. I’ve never been able to get any answers about what he was doing at the time. All I know is he was in 3rd group and was supposed to come home but he pulled some strings to get assigned TDY so he could stay there. I’ve tried on and off for years to learn about those last few years but so much has been redacted.
I know I am a late-comer to this thread but since I came across it by accident, I wanted to add a bit of info. I was assigned TDY to RTAF Takh Li in Thailand with the various iterations of aircraft. Even though US Air Units were activated and deactivated/moved in theater and out of theater, there were always support units flying missions out of Thailand. My aircraft was F-111′s. Even though the peace accords were signed, we still flew unacknowledged flights into the DMZ for purposes of recovery/demolition of classified aircraft electronic equipment. The last time, in August of 1974, the chopper I was in took a direct hit while we were preparing to land. Casualties were heavy but the guys from 11th Combat Aviation Group were the ones who got us survivors out. Helluva great pilot and braver guys I can say I never knew. I owed my 20 year old rear end to them. I’m sorry that it took all these years for me to recognize them for what they did. The government wouldn’t acknowledge the flights. To all who served in the army, and saved us Air Force guys…thanks and God Bless.
Thanks for the reply Jack…My memory has gotten fuzzy with age..I may be mistaken about the CAG but they were defintely Army and if I remember right, the patch was an eagle with either lightning bolts or arrows(blue?)….anyway wanted an opportunity to say thanks after all these years. God Bless.
i was with eco. 14th inf.,long binh ammo dump from june to nov. 1972.does anyone rember aug.13 72 when 11 vc sappers hit the ammo dump. i was the one that sat out there all day while the bunkers were cooking off as an f/o. stood down nov. 72, wound up in pleiku with h trp.17yh air cav.. was with inf. plt. for a short while. then sent across the airstrip to the nung compound where i finished the rest of my tour. stood down march of 73
I was at Long Bien when the ammo dump went up. I thought it was August 7th though. I was at Bien Hoa on August 1 when they hit the air base. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I was medivaced to 3rd fld hosp Saigon I thought the 13th or14th and was medivaced stateside with mixed malaria. I served with 1st 12th, 1st 7th (Task Force Gary Owen) Ftrp 9th and dont remember what the last unit at Long Bien was just it was hhc of a combat aviation unit as reaction force.
Hi
Do you remember when the ammo dump blew on Fire Base Fiddlers Green later call Fire Base Spudus? The base was just out side the green line of Bein Hoa. I think it was the spring of 72 or early summer?
I’d really would like to know the dates if someone can remember.
can’t r. s.
fred
I have some dates for October through January of rocket attacks and mortar attacks at Bien Hoa.
October 26, 1972 – The military command in Saigon reports that Communist forces have initiated the largest number of assaults throughout the country of any 24-hour period since the 1968 Tet Offensive.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Two, Page 35
Bien Hoa was attacked by indirect fire 17th &19th December 1972
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Page 127
On 16 December ARVN forces began an eight battalion operation in the Bien Hoa rocket belt, following rocket attacks on Bien Hoa Air Base. Five 122mm rockets were captured, and several minor contacts made near launch positions.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Three, Pages 107
The enemy used harassing rocket attacks on air installations during the period from October through January, striking DaNang, Tan Son Nhut, and Bien Hoa on several occasions….
I have a friend who was there then… I can ask him if one of those attacks were by the ammo dump when he was there… I seem to remember him saying so.
Look up the 1972-1973 Command History if you need more information about Bien Hoa in the Spring or Summer of 1972. I may be able to help you if you need the help… just ask.
Also… what was your troop/unit?
Look up their USARV/MACV SUPCOM After Action Reports. That will help you know where they were stationed and when. Their After Action Reports may also include additional reports of rocket and mortar attacks that the unit encountered.
Assigned to Task Forse Garry Owens Co E 1/7th. Left the green line Aug 13th and few home on the 15th. The last FSB for us was Grunt 2 a few clicks out of Bien Hoa. Our ammo dump went up to in late July or early Aug. Was on morning tower there when on Aug 1st the 122′s went over us and into the Airbase were the Marines were musted for payday in a hanger. Worked out of FSB Elderidge, Cross Sabers, Mase, Morter Hill, Bear Cat and Spudis when we took it over from the 11th ACR. T54′s with a click.
Went back in 06 and walked the old green line for the last time
Garry Owens MF’ers. Glad you we with us.
Phil Purdy
Evergreen Colorado
My memory is very shady of some things because they were changing so quick. Aug 1 1972 the first rocket of the attack on Bien Hoa airbase hit just in front of me on the green line between the ville and the base. Could actually see them coming from the ville. Had come to Bien Hoa from Grunt II. Had just helped close up Mars. Went to Ftrp 9th Cav Sabre Blues then to Long Bien. Left mid august and was hospitalized till early November with mixed malaria.My friends took care of me for a couple days until I could get medical attention. They took me to see a Frankenstein movie. Never forget thier care but names escape me. Bless them
Hello Fred. I can check on that at my reunion next month because several of my buddies were on that base when the dump blew. My thought is that it wans’t Spudis but a different one. I was on patrol in the field at the time. A firefighter was killed when it went up.
We ran into a bunker and got a KIA. When I sent back for a catering charge what I got was 10 sticks of C-4, which was sufficient to do the job.
My friend, Phil Purdy, Co E, 1/7 just posted above here and perhaps he is correct about which firebase it was.
@Fran….1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut..
I remember this particular rocket attack well. Got my ass blown off a conex by a delayed 122 which landed short of the flight line. Most of the rockets were walked up the runways on the Air Force side, the BIG voice blaring…like we did not know the rockets were already falling.
no, larry,it was aug.13th. i have commo reports from long binh h/q..i have been trying to find my unit records for over twenty years. just before the last of us pulled out in nov.,the 1st sgt. got myself and about for or five others out in front of the orderly room with a stack of papers in his hand. he said that we were put in for these awards and he didn,think we deserved them.he through them in the burn barrel. been trying to find the x/o lt. stenrum ,or anhbody i was with,or photos of that day when the sappers hit. it was 11sappers.
To Phil Purdy I was with you on Firebase Grunt 11. I was with E.CO I came from Firebase Spudis and the Recon Team to man a Radar Tower that was under your control. I was the kid from Montana (Jimbo). Neil Kennedy also came with me and you two guys ended punching it out on the by one of the guard towers. As I recall you won. I was also in the tower when the rockets went over us and hit Bien Hoa. After we stood down in Aug. I went to H Troop 7/17 and pulled bunker line guard and flew with the Blue Teams until it was over in 73. I would love to talk to you sometime. Jim abeatupcowboy@live.com
Jim, I do remember you and Kennedy. I sent you a email asking you to call or send me your number. There are a few of us from Echo Company that meet up for reunions, emails and talk. Please join us. Welcome Home Brother! Sgt Purdy
Jim, I do remember you and Kennedy. I sent you a email asking you to call or send me your number. There are a few of us from Echo Company that meet up for reunions, emails and talk. Please join us.
Micheal, After the rockets flew over us into Bien Hoa, remember how everybody on Grunt 11 was waiting for them to hit us next. Hope your Arty call got those Cong. Thanks
Phil, Thanks for the e-mail, can’t wait to talk to you, Jim
To Don Gibson, I do remember you very well on Firebase Grunt11 mostly from your great sense of humor. I did get your welcoming e-mail but i have replied twice to you and the post master keeps sending it back with not a valid address. Would love to talk to you , please send me another e-mail. thanks Jim Ohs
Fran
Thanks for the info it is a start. btw I was in the 3rd Brigade (Separate) 1st Cavalry Divison (Airmobile) Delta Company 1st Battalion (Airmobile) 7th Cavalry from December 1971 – June 1972
I was a 60 gunner- Had 2 missions on/with the Point Team also part time mailman I flew back to Bien Hoa to get the company mail at times. Also a 3rd Field Hospital Siagon patient for a few months and finishing my Army carreer with a 10 month hospital stay at Fitzsimmons Army hospital Denver Colorado.
Hey SGM Bob
The Company Comannder was Captain James Whittaker, the Command Srgt Major (E10) was Westmoreland youngest man with that rank in the army (39 yrs old) at that time. BTW I took a camera on a couple missions and have a pretty good photo album. I and willing to share the pic’s with those interested. Also I made about 6 to 8 copies of same pic’s for guys in my platoon in 1972. So if you have some of those pictures you know me.
Fred, I have to reply to my own post as this site doesn’t permit me to reply to you. I can’t recall the name of the A Co Commander right now but he was a good looking blond guy. I can’t say that I remember Whittaker. The Ban Co was LTC Hodges. I don’t know the CSM but you must have made a typo because there are no E-10s. He was 39 at the time, eh? I made SGM at 36.
The D Co Commander was Tony Witter. I have his email address. The C Co Commander lives in Colorado and ran for US Congress the alst rlection cycle but didn’t win.
If anyone has some dates or names please contact me. When 1st of the 12th left and we were combined into 1st of the 7th (Task Force Garry Owen) things started to get very confusing. I remember on log day in the bush one trooper got a newspaper clipping from his mom that said there were no more combat troops in the field. The nearby artillery strike must have been a figment of our imagination. Places I was are Bunker Hill, Grunt II, Mars, Bien Hoa, Long Bien.
My parents saw me on the evening news getting on a UH-1 going to the field from Crossed Sabers AFTER it was reported there were no more combat troops going out on offensive missions.
We called the 11th CAG patch the “Chicken on a stick Patch”
H Troop 10th Air Cav and H Troop 17th Air Cav were there through the Cease fire in late Jan 73. I lost a good man Sgt Robert Lee Frakes the next to last day of the war.
I’m trying to debunk someone I highly suspect is a “veteran poser”. Can anyone give me dates that would be the LATEST that any NEW regular troops would have ARRIVED in Vietnam?
I’m in a hurry right now… but I DO KNOW someone who arrived in Vietnam in September 1972. US ARMY (Air) Regular Army. A lot was going on in Vietnam then. THIS IS VERIFIED.
What is this person telling you?
There is a lot that so many of us do not know about this war, unless we were there.
Fran, I arrived in country on 28 September 1972, through Camp Alpha, Long Binh and Plantation, eventually ending up at Bien Hoa, finally settled with Fox9.
I have known of several fake NamVets including one who claimed to have gone on a “reforgery” to Vietnam. Obviously had no idea what Reforger is. And another who was actually the president of the area PowMia group.
I was stationed at Bien Hoa AB from 20 May 1972 until 30 January 1973 when I left. The parent unti was MAG-12 from Iwakuni, Japan commanded by Colonel Macho. No shit.
There was an explosion in or around an ammo or bomb dump a few days on either side of 10 September 1972, if memory serves.
The biggest rocket attacks I recall were in August 1972.I totally forgot the one on 26 or 28 January unless that post referred to 1972.
I seem to recall a brand new Marine being assigned to our unit on or about September 1972. I think that he was 18 years old, which would make him one of the youngest Vietnam Veterans I can think of.
There were two rocket attacks, the second one, I believe in January was by far the largest. Our flight line at F/9 was hit by 4, plus the short round that damned near got me. The rest were ‘walked’ up and down the runways on the Air Force sides, a couple hit the revetments as I remember. We had a clear view of the attack from across the base. The BIG VOICE blaring !!! The one in December as I recall was not as large. We had captured a little VN girl coming through the ‘wire’ and the decision was to let her go, she came back around 0430, the rockets started to fall a few minutes later.
larry, reforgers are nato war games held in germany once a year. my first one was with b co. 4/63rd armor.same year back from nam. reuped feb. 74. wound up with h co. 2/2nd acr for second and third reforger. my fourth, fifth and sixth reforgers were with hht 4/69th out of mainz germany. forgot,2/2nd was out of bamberg. left germany four days after comming off my last reforger in 78. got out of the army in feb. 80. deita,1/3rd cav, ft bliss, texas.
Yes David I know what they are but the fake NamVet didnt. He claimed to have been on one to RVN. I was medivaced with mixed malaria in mid August of 72 and left hospital at Great Lakes Naval Hospital in early November. My state side unit was 1st Inf. at Fort Riley. They were preparing for REFORGER. So I did get to tour the lovely German countryside from an open jeep. While I was there I ran into several of the people I served with from 1st Cav. It was actually very interesting as I got to see a lot of the country and the various cultures it held.
What a wonderful world we live in we all know that the only thing that we can count on when it comes to our government is either an out and out lie or a greatly stretched truth.
I to was stationed at Danang Air base 1972-1973. I was with the Royal Coachman. We had many flights that were single bird flights. I flew many flights as a door gunner. I was shot at a couple of times walking to or from my hooch going out to walk, pick up cigarettes go to the NCO club. I was also shot at more then once as a gunner. Now I was not a ground fighter so if the enemy would have had better aim my death would not have been acceptable because I was not a ground fighter? I know of at least one bird the went down with 5 on board the 4 man crew and a macv Officer. They were not ground ponders and were KIA’s Do they count? they were shot down well into 1973. Oh well who cares? The families and me. We were being shot at Well into 1973……The US knows and does nothing about it.so it must be OK..
i remember when kontum got over run. we watched the fireworks that night from camp holloway.we were wanting to go up there to help them,but they wouldn,t let us. if i remember right, it was during the CEASE FIRE….
I was at 1st Cav training center when a planeload of very surprised tow missile crews arrived in their jeeps. Still had stateside fatiques on. They were going north to hit the armor being used in the easter offensive.
I stumbled onto this site and am glad that I did. I was a NCOC “speedy 5″ that got to Vietnam June 1972. I enjoyed reading the emails from people that were in the same places at the same time as me. I went in country at Saigon/Camp Alpha then to A Co 1/7th. at Bien Hoa, got transferred to C co1/7 company after the stand down ceremony at Bien Hoa where I was awarded my CIB. I remember hearing about the ammo dump. I was on the Green Line when the Marine pilots got hit during a mortar attack. (I have a few slides of that attack that I shot the next morning while smoke was still billowing. I was in and out of Grunt II and Bunker Hill FSB’s and conducted missions and patrols out of them. I got sent to E Co 14th. Inf. then C co 87th Inf. at Long Binh. Transferred to 277th. S & S Bn at Camp Horn Danang It was indeed a very busy time. I have in my posession to this day copies of orders from Ft. Leonard Wood all the way through my discharge in Jan. 73 at Ft. Carson. What a hell of a ride for a 20 year old kid from the Ozarks of southern Missouri. Thanks to all of you for your emails and most of all thanks for your service. Welcome Home!
Robert T. Schovilie was the Captain of C Co. 1/7 on 13 Aug. 72 on my Installation Clearance Record.
My Plt. Leader was a guy named Cook from Alabama or Louisianna. I also remember the 1st.Sgt’s driver was a Stephen Kelley. A guy named McSwain comes to mind also
I was in A Co for 1 month then went to C Co for a stint.
I have names of 33 1/7 troopers that were awarded the C.I.B. at the same time as me.
Somewhere in my collection of stuff I have 3 of the 1st Cav magazines from 1972 as well as a Stars & Stripes article about the 87th. Inf. Div.pulling the last infantry mission in Vietnam. I was on that one is why I kept the article. I imagine that a lot of units can claim that same task.
Thanks for the replies that you sent. Roger
A very small world. I was looking up facts about the 1/7 Cav in 1972 Vietnam and came across this site. I too was at FB Grunt 2 and also FB Crossed Sabers. I was in E Co, mortars. as a squad leader. I vividly remember the ammo dump explosion and the rocket attack on Bien Hoa airbase. I do believe the battalion commander was Col. Hodges. I also provided security for the base doctors when going on Medcaps to the local villages to provide medical treatment for the sick and malnourished. Also attended NCO school, Ft. Benning graduating May ’71. I also was part the Standdown ceremony when the colors were encased. Thanks for the forgotten memories.
Bob,
are you aware that there is a site called The NCOC Locator that you can go on and read stuff about us and the names of lots of our classmates as well as some of their email addresses. It is a very well done site. It has a few links to other sites as well as the Infantry Museum at Benning.
The History Channel and Military Channel are planning to do a documentary about the NCOC academy in the next couple of years. They are asking for any graduates of the school to volunteer to be interviewed for the project. Thanks for your service, Roger
No I did not attend. I just found this site yesterday. Being able to attend reunions is problematic for me as I am now retired and living in the Philippines. Funny though. I found the people and country here to have many similarities as Vietnam.
3rd Group would be odd as that was a 5th Group war.”
I don’t know much about him, just a handful of details. I know he was in 3rd group but no clue what other units since obviously that wouldn’t be the only one he was ever with. When I was with the father of my kids, I met Lt. Col. Dennington (around 1995-1996, a chaplain at that point), once at some fancy dinner/ball thing, once for the 10k Army birthday run on Ft. Bragg, and the last time at the commissary. I know he served in Vietnam with my father, got a couple ‘hero stories’, one was where my father got a silver star for hand-to-hand combat, something about crossing a river with his squad and VC came out of nowhere while most of them were still in the water.
Where I get more fuzzy is the timeline. I’m pretty sure he started off in Ft. Benning, then went to Ft. Sam Houston for awhile, then to Ft. Bragg for awhile, then two years in Vietnam from 1966-1969 with some time off in the middle of that and that’s when I know he was in 3rd group because that’s the only thing I still have from him besides a picture (paperwork about his silver star), then he was moved around a lot between Ft. Bragg, someplace in Germany, and some shorter trips to Vietnam and I’m pretty sure he was just doing medical stuff for those last few years.
After all that mess, he came home, I was born in 1976, he completely disappeared in 1977.
I retired from Special Forces and am involved with different SF groups. If you’d like to send me what you have (i.e. name, etc.) I can post it up for you and see if anything hatches anywhere.
There are other ways to get information “through channels”, too.
Read the April 2012 VFW Magizine. It has a 4 page write up on Vietnam 1972. Very little about the grunts but Task Force Garry Owen in mentioned. Has the last infantryman KIA. Worth the read.
We might well have crossed paths if you flew the An Loc missions because I see you were with the 229th April through July. I was with the “Blues” for part of that. I mostly flew in circles watching the Pink Teams work out and waiting for somebody to go down as we had recovery duty to get the pilots out and destroy the aircraft.
I still recall one aircraft that I’ve tried to find the pilot(s) of as I flew in it several times. Does the number 106 mean anything to you?
Also, small world … I live only a few miles from Bruce Crandall.
Blue Max did a helluva job during the Easter offensive bearing the blunt of the fight around An Loc. I had the honor of flying with CPT Bill Causey of Blue Max later in 72 up in II Corp. A lot of the Cav pilots from D/229th were transferred to H Troop 10th Cavalry at Lane AHP near An Son late July 72.
I flew snakes and was shot down 23 Jun 72 near Quon Loi. Took a hit at 3500 feet from a large antiaircraft weapon and pretty much went straight down. I was in the front seat with CPT Paul Lent as my back seater. We caught a lucky break and a B 229th slick pulled us out after about 10 minutes on the ground.
I was and still am very proud of the PUC that TF Garry Owens won at An Loc.
Thanks for your service SGM. Life has been pretty good for this old soldier–sounds like it has been for you as well.
I’m glad you got out. The first two things they told me about those birds was: 1) never stand in front of the rocket tubes while trying to rescue the pilots and 2) don’t try cutting through the canopy by striking anywhere other than right on the edge of the plexiglass.
I can personally attest to how close that air support was when one of the rockets kicked up a rock and it hit me in the wrist.
Did you know the pilot that went down near An Loc and was interred at the Tomb of the Unknowns? He went down during the Easter offensive. I found out later that his DNA matched a family out here in Hoquiam, Washington.
All in all, life has been pretty good here, too. My wife is about to retire and the last of four grandchildren we raised will graduate in June.
Are you hooked up with the Yahoo! group 229th? If not, I can send you the link but I don’t want to post it here so send your email address to me at bob@falcorp.com.
To Dave Wallace. My first unit in RVN was 1st of the 12th. I joined up with them from the training center and went out to Bunker Hill. I got a nasty sunburn stringing concertina. We went on three day R&R to Vung Tau right after joining them. When they left I went to 1st of the 7th and we were mostly at Grunt II. When the 7th stood down went to Ftrp 9th. From there went to Long Bien. I came down with malaria while in the reaction force ready room. This all happened from April to August of 72. I was Popeyes RTO at Bunker Hill when he shot himself in the foot during John Wayne “Cowboys” movie. Was at Long Than* with 7th.
After reading these posts I am more bouyed by the fact WE knew we were there and what we were doing while the government denied we were there at all. Viet Nam almost cost me my life and there is no mention of any of it on my DD214.
Just found this site. Pretty cool. I was a machine gunner Bravo Co. 1st/7th firebase Crossed Sabers, Spudis and Grunt II. Was on Grunt when ammo dump blew – was setting claymores with Sgt. Goolsby (sp?). Was also there for the rocket attack at Bin Hoa in Aug. 72 – left soon after – was among some of the last of the combat ground troops to leave. I remember the guy getting newspaper clip from parents about no more ground troops being in Vietnam. Made us wonder, if that was true – what were we doing there?
To RMontoya. I was a 60 gunner with 1st of the 7th also. When you mentioned the guy getting the newspaper clipping was it on log day in the bush? We had a guy pull it out of the envelope and that was the headline of the clipping and she had wrote on it “Does this mean you?” Or words to that effect.
What about the classified recovery team I was on from the 101st Airbourn Division that came in early 1974 to try to find and get POWs and body remains, which I still have nightmares about. There is no record or info I can find on this Special Operation. Aside from that, They have conviently lost my records and pick up from when I was sent to Germany. Its like my first 2 or more years don’t exist. I have tried for 7 years or more now to get something but they tell me to forget it if they don’t have a record of it. I am now beeing treated for MS,High BP, Type 2 diabetes, severe depression, Anxiety, Panic Attacks, sleep apnea and breathing, now using a CPAP, Pain, increased sensitivity to heat and sun light, blurring of my vision, double vision, fatigue, PTSD and others. I am 100% disabled, house bound and require aid and attendance provided by my wife. The Doctors say most all this came from exposure to Agent Orange but since they have no records, I am not service connected so my wife and I suffer and try to make it as best as we can. I have a back injury where I crashed and burned on a jump but there again there is no record. My current MRI and X-Ray show the injury. Do any of you remember this mission or anything about it. There was a MP group when we got to Saigon but my memory is so messed up I can’t remember who they were. My code name for the mission was “Bear”.
Well, don’t you have any orders with other people’s names on it from the unit you were in the 101st with? Who was the unit Commander? Where did you deploy from? Where did the recovery team go in-country?
The VA will accept testimonials from people that were there and can confirm your presence in-country.
There shouldn’t be any reason a mission like this would be classified at this point.
Sgt. White, my husband’s DD2-14 did not show how long he really stayed in Vietnam and where and who with later after Ceasefire. There was the Four Party Joint Military Commission and the ICCS which formed after Ceasefire and lasted until March 29th 1973. Their purpose was to help exchange POWs and recover remains interred in Communist territory. Record-keeping was poor at that time because of lack of Administration and how the US was trying to get out quickly. I found one page in the 1972-1973 Command Histories regarding these missions. I suggest going on-line and seeing if there is any reference to these missions in 1974. (I do not know IF there is a Command History for after 1973.) ALSO! I was able to have it confirmed that my husband was in Vietnam after Ceasefire and after his DD2-14 stated by going over his DA-20… It shows he was not stateside for three months after he was suppose to be and that he left Vietnam March 25, 1973. I texting this and reciting from memory… hope it might help some.
Also, I learned so much about this time and these missions from… my sister-in-law, brither-in-law and mother-in-law. I had them write notarized written testimonies of the things that my husband told them when he just came back from Vietnam. He can’t remember much either, but it really impact him. Because of their testimonies, the Command Histories speaking of these missions and times, and my husband’s DA-20 confirming that my husband was ‘missing’ for three months at that time… the VA now acknowledges that he was there then.
looking for info. on 12 April 72 Sgt. Marvin Lynn Biscamp was K.I.A. Another man was wounded at the same time.Sorry to say i cant quite remember his name,been a long time can anyone help me out.
to fran they can never find your dd-214 till they want to , they are 800,000 claims behind as we talking, two yrs they say to me hold on we are working on it
Was Sgt Biscamp with the Delta company 1/7th? I remember taking over a NVA bunker complex about April. I was moving out with the point team when another GI past me on the way to guard duty. It was down a hill toward a water hole. On his way there a NVA regular shot the GI in the face. I remember see the body bag next to Captain (James) Witter while he was on the horn calling for a helicopter. I have a few more memories about what happened if this is the right GI.
Fred: OMG, I just got chills all over. The guy that originally headed out that way was me. I was the engineer that rappelled in to blow those bunkers. I needed to dig a cat hole and make a deposit but I decided to go into one of the bunkers and do it there.
While I was there, a fairly new Shake and Bake sergeant straight out of NCOC took out a relief for the OP and took four in the head and hest. For some time that thought was that it was me that was shot as I was the last one anybody remembered going out that way.
If you recall, the bird that brought me in flew around quite sometime as the dinks were popping smoke in the area and the pilots swere trying to confirm who was who. I burned my gloves coming down. When I got down, there were two guys in D Co from Washington. One was Ed Nelson from a town called Walla Walla and nobody belived that he came from a town by that name. I went to a small, private college there and eventually went to Ed;s wedding about 1973.
The other guy was from Bremerton, where I grew up and still live near today. I’ve never been able to recall his name.
The commander wasn’t James Witter, it was Tony Witter. James took over a little later.
Sheesh! I thought maybe we had crossed paths somewhere and now you just recalled this KIA. I think it was about February 1972 and it was D Co. Biscomb was either B or C.
I also wound up walking point for several missions for D Co as I had more time out there than many of the infantry guys.
SGM, We had taken a bunker complex and while we were waiting in a clearing for the engineers to arrive one of our guys had a nervous breakdown. I was wondering if it may have been the same mission. We also had two K.I.A. and two W.I.A. from a friendly fire in our other platoon.
SGM Zornes
WOW! I got your response last nite but i couldn’t reply. I spent the nite staring at the ceiling, lots of memories of that terrible day. Yes you recall it well, I saw you repeling, heard the birds flying just over tree tops all around us. While this was happening to you, my life was unfolding. “Slim” my squad leader told me to go on guard duty at the blues. I told him I couldn’t because the point team was about to move out. I said to him to get someone else… how about a newbee that need the practice. Slim did and secounds later I heard the fire. I still to this day wonder if I would have had a better chance than the newbee. I was and still am hypervidgilent and at the time never went anywhere without my weapon on full rock and roll. I remember hearing that the killed GI had his weapon on safety. Did he think he was walking in the park… We were in the middle of a enemy Bunker Complex for god sakes. a memory burned deep
Funny what one recalls but I think I remember that there were actually 17 bunkers that day. We blew them with 40 lb cratering charges.
Molinen was actually killed after I was on the ground and unless ‘Im wrong, it was the day after I came in, sometime around the morning I think, rather than that same day because I believe I rappelled in late in the afternoon and we called for the charges the next day.
You remember seeing the body next to Tony Witter. I have burned into my memory watching him pulled out of the jungle up to the bird in a litter. I can’t remember if we took his water and ammunition, ghoulish as it sounds.
Larry: I don’t recall the incident you’re speaking of. I have no recollection of being around when anybody had a nervous breakdown.
I do remember once a Latino guy named Sanchez always wanted to carry the 60. He got his wish one mission. We passed through a muddy swamp (I wouldn’t call it a rice paddy because there wasn’t any rice growing it it, at least at the time.).
It was ass-kicking grueling with mud up to the lower part of our hips. We finally got into a grove and the commander called it quits for the day so we set up the NDP. Sanchez cramped up so bad and was screaming that we had to evacuate him. The funny part of this story is after we got into that grove, everybody checked for leeches and the guy that had been walking in front of me had one right on his penis (well, not funny for him).
Anyway, I only recall one time being in friendly fire when the tail shot up the point because the point somehow sort of doubled back around. Nobody got hit, though.
Does anybody here remember a Staff Sergeant we called “Irish”? I think he dd a couple of tours. I seem to recall that he had been busted at one point. He had a “famous” blond handlebar moustache.
We ran into a bunker complex once and Irish passed the word the point was going to recon by fire. There was some fire, then we waited. Irish came back and said they’re going to recon by grenade. We heard a couple of explosions and waited. And waited. And waited. Finally Irish came back, obviously perturbed, and said “They must be reconning by bayonet now”. Funny, at least to me, at the time.
Nobody got killed on that mission, unlike the one we talked about above, I have no recollection of how any bunkers I blew.
SGM Zornes
Your right in the timing of events, writing these shorts i seem to jump over some things.
Oh Yes I remember “Irish” a drinking man after my own heart. I seem to remember that Irish went over a firebase berm with knife in mouth to personally waste a wounded zapper. At least that was the rumor about the wildman. Do you remember a Lt. Williams. No reason you should. He held down the company rear and wanted a field asignment so bad. He got one after while and really showed his OFFICER stupidity. I think that even today i’d have a hard time not punching him. I hope he is around to read this!!! Irish and Williams got along like oil and water.
I was the 3rd plt rto when we went into that bunker complex. My Lt.’s name was Hendrix, and my platoon sgt was named McCaffrey, known as Irish. Crazy guy from NYC who had a bushy mustache and walked on most every platoons point team. I remember there being 16 bunkers and being ambushed the day before we went in there and discovered them. Molian (sp?) was killed leading a water gathering detail, and after his death the detail was suspended and the bunkers were destroyed and we left and tried to find our pz the next day with no luck. McCaffrey told the CO he heard chopping up ahead and a Pink Team was bounced to look for the source of the noise. When no activity was seen by the aircraft McCaffrey asked if they happened to see a large clearing ( our pz we couldn’t find) and they saw it and we were able to finally get outa there and back to Crossed Sabres. Irish got a big kick outa using those Loaches to find our way out of that place. I was made the CO’s rto shortly after that while we were on Spudis which was a large 11th ACR Fire base that we knocked down and made into a Company sized triangular FB similar to Grunt. February 72 I think
Doug Stamper, I clearly remember you. I remember Lt. Hendricks, too, particularly on a mine sweep we he and his squad or platon was providing security. But through these years I thought you were a medic. So you were the RTO, eh? I have either a photo of you or a Grunt magazine or Garry Owen newspaper article that has a picture of you that I wrote down the names of the guys that were in it.
I was the engineer that blew those bunkers. I was there in nearly the same spot where Molilenan was a few minutes before he was shot. I thought, though, that he was taking out an OP relief rather than a water detail. Here’s the brief details of Moilanen.
DALE BURTON MOILANEN. He was killed February 1, 1972, 6 weeks after he arrived in-country.
Yes, Irish was a different guy. The blond, handle-bar moustache was unforgettable.
One time (I think I mentioned this earlier) we ran into a bunker complex and we all halted (perhaps the same patrol), He came down the line and passed the word that the lead element was going to recon by fire. There was some firing.
Then he came back and said they were going to recon by grenade. After that a few explosions. Then a long, long silence.
He eventually came back and joked they must be reconning by bayonet.
The stupidest officer I saw over there was running security for me while I mineswept the road from Spudis one morning.
I’m on the left side of the road running the mine detector and over on the left shoulder, about seven or eight meters in front of me, is this Lieutenant. I seem to recall that his branch was Medical Corps. I think he wore eyeglasses. He was a goodf looking guy.
I stopped, pulled my headphones down around my neck and said something like “Hey, Lt, do see anything wrong with this picture? If you’re gonna sweep that shoulder for me I may as well bring up the rear because you don’t need me up here.”
I went back and told my people to not ever send that dumbass out with me again.
I go back weekly and read updates for this subject. I find comments about people and places and/or events that happened while I was there. I saw Lt. Hendicks name above this posting and remembered him being my Lt. when I got transferred to Co. C 87th. at Long Bien. I have a First Team Cav magazine that did a big article on him and his platoon finding a huge weapons cache.
Do you remember Lt. Cooks RTO? I think we called him Charles or Chuck. His running buddy was a guy named Jerry Sistrunk when we were in the rear or on a firebase. Anyway, Chuck shot tons of photos and taped lots of mad minutes and of fellow soldiers when we would CA out or get picked up. His photos and recordings would be a treasure trove of info. to have.
I too was at the stand down ceremony when the guy locked his knees and passed out. Did you know Sgt. Stephen Kelley? He approached some of us after the ceremony and said that all the state flags that flew there were also being thrown away. He said that if we wanted the one from our state to take it with us. I brought the Mo. flag home and donated it to the Mo. State Museum in Jefferson City.
Thanks again for this column, it seems to be theraputic in a good way.. Roger Phipps
From R Montoya to F zink no we were B co. Date was 12 May 72 we were on patrol off F.S.B. spudis it was hot lots of bush SGT. Axleys squad had been on point. We stopped and the LT. met with squad leaders.wanted to head back to the N.D.P. SGT Biscamp told Ace( (S.G.T. Axley) that he would take the point.We had taken a few steps when there was an explosion killing biscamp and wounding anouther.
Was Ace Axley a “Shake & Bake” NCOC? Iremember a NCO that assisted with the NCOC class that I graduated from. He was a tall skinny guy with a big mustache that hyphenated every other word with the F word. I think he said one time that he flew planes in Tn.
To R. Phipps – Yes that was Ace. He was a shake and bake squad leader – pretty good guy – pretty good in the bush. Yes – he did fly planes, I believe he was an instructor from TN.
Regarding the red towels or hammocks – had a similar thing happen to me at night. We were on ambush patrol – don’t remember if it was Firebase Spudis but I think so. The ground search radar wasn’t working and they wanted me to get out in the clearing and wave my helmet around so they could pick me up. Surprising how dumb some people can be – not only to give such an order but to follow it! Only thing we got in the ambush were some pigs. Sorry been out of touch – computer took one and crashed and burned! Great hearing from you guys – brings back some memories, some good, some not so good. Check you later (GARRY OWEN)
Commenting on earlier post you had about your CIB and 33 other names on those records. Looked at mine and you are on there. My travels in nam seem to be just like yours
To Thoses that served with amazment:
Lt Williams was tall, thinning hair and a mustche. I believe an admin background. On our first mission he decided the chopper pilots couldn’t find us by cordinances alone to pick us up.. So 5 of us where ordered to stand in an open field with six foot long red towels held over our heads waving for the gaggle. I first refused… but a direct order with threats…well I went out in the middle of the frig’in field laid down on my back put the red towel over my 16 barrel and held it up with my left arm. I figured I’d sacrafice my left arm for god and country. We got back to fire base cross sabres safely but the relationship was never the same. Friends come and go but idiots last forever
Fred: You have described the same moron I had as security the morning of that mine sweep. That is EXACTLY what he looked like.
I know there were a couple of occasions when we weren’t sure where we were so we had artillery fire a spotter round but waving red flags in a clearing? There’s a guy that escaped a frag.
I’m curious, though, where in the hell did you find six foot long red towels?????
The red towels are more simple to discribe than: Do you remember buying solid color hammock’s from the locals. We used them to swing low and sleep off the ground. Mine was dark blue. Well the LT got some in red., Cut the tie strng from both ends and had a 6 plus foot red nylon cloth seamed on all sides. Brilliant for someone with no brains and trying to get you killed.
Yeah, I used to “swing” when I wnent out with certain companies (others wouldn’t let you). And we had to swing low in case of mortars or incoming fire.
So here’s my funny story about swinging in a hammock. When I first got to Crossed Sabers it was nothing but a piece of dried up dirt right of Highway 1. I pounded in two engineer stakes (what we call steel T fence posts in the civilian world). I had no rope so I took detonating cord (yup, THAT detonating cord– the stuff made with PETN that burns at 32,000 feet per second).
I cut two pieces to hold the hammock up, sat my butt on the hammock to swing in and the det cord sliced right through and I fell on my ass.
I used to carry blasing caps in my pocket like change. Yes, the stupid things we did when we were kids.
Doc Roberts yes the name only. Just remember him as a nice guy. Do you remember the KC named Kim? He was a North Vietnam defector. He was also a Hanoi university trained Medical Doctor. Wonderful man. kind, intellegent, bush savvy took care of you if he liked you. It only took a smile and a little respect towards him to win him over. He was so scared for the war to end and what would happen to him. Yes I wonder what did become of him?.
Doc Roberts…you’d know him. He carried a grease gun. I was with A company once and you guys weren’t far away. Something happened and the firing started. You can always tell a grease gun by the very slow pop .. pop..pop it made. Roberts went back home to Virginia and got a job working for the US Army repairing helicopters in the Washington, D.C. area that were used by high ranking civilian DOD people.
I vaguely remember the KC guy. I used to give him money to go into the ville and bring me back Ramen. I think it was 200 p. By the time Ramen became a big thing back in the states I was tired of it but it was so light to carry instead of C rats. You had to be going somewhere that had water though. You could pull up some bamboo shoot roots to flavor it with.
I have no idea whatever became of those guys. They probably ended up in re-education camps IF they were lucky. I recall working with some Cambodian scouts, too.
Again, being the CO’s rto I Knew Niem the KC or chuhoi we had along with us. He said he was a dr in Hanoi. I also knew Doc Robert. HE called everyone “snuffy” I left VN on the same flight and talked to him in the mid 80′s when he called me on Christmas eve. Last I heard he was in Ft Pierce Florida. My medic in the 3rd platoon was Pete Schagg from Aurora Ill.
Now that you say grease gun i remember better. I still did not know him any more than name. He went home (back to the world) before I did and when i was in the compamy rear once “French” supply sgt about 7foot tall red hair. Tooo tall to go into the bush showed me a grease gun he had in the weapons room. Shoots 45′s if I remember right
The .45 caliber Grease Gun… a P.O.S. says SGM Zinkes. Well, that Sergeant Major is because you weren’t a tanker.
In early 1971 my unit in the Americal received a newly rebuilt M-48A3 battle tank from Okinawa to replace our worn out machine. The thing had been done over from the tracks up, all to original equipment standards right down to the Grease Gun in it’s clip holder on the interior turret bulkhead.
“It’s a P.O.S. ” I said to our tank commander, Sergeant Jose Rojas, the rate of fire is too slow.”
“Watch this, Gunner” he says as he proceeds to remove the recoil spring from the receiver and replace it with a spare recoil spring for one of our .50 caliber machine guns. It’s hard to describe the improvement that heavier spring made but it easily doubled the rate of fire. P.O.S. no more.
The slow rate of fire could be ramped up, for certain, but the the weapons had many other shortcomings, not the least or which is the effective range AND when you ran out of ammuntion, it was highly, HIGHLY unlikely any bird coming in to kick out ammo boxes was going to be kicking out cases of .45. Never mind the issue of reloading the magazines.
Any field weapon you can’t get resupplied with ammuniton is pretty much useless.
Well SGM, it’s like this: considering that an M48A3 tank carried three tons of fuel and ammunition the resupply of .45 ACP was, how do they say, not an issue.
And it was a very handy little gun for the driver, who being crammed into hull would have had to rely on his .45 pistol for any close encounters.
Beauty, SGN, really is in the eyes of the beholder.
I was the commander of F Troop, 8th Cavalry until October of 1972. I then became the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group that same month.
To my knowledge, no “Blues” platoon was never used on external operations during the time I was in MR 1. In fact, when I commanded F troop, I was not allowed to employ my organic Infantry Platoon without the permission of the USARV commander!
Please do not hesitate to call/contact me if I can be of any further assistance.
I was with the 11th CAG in 72, I was Col Cass’s crewchief. I also flew with th 62nd and stayed with the US Element of the Four Party Joint Military Commission. In late 72 or early 73, I was on an ash and trash mission with the 62nd when we were called for an emergency medivac. This was somewhere North and West of Danang, maybe even North of Monkey Mountain. As I remember it there were three or four American infantry troops that had set off a couple of booby traps. They threw them on my slick and we headed for the hospital at China beach. Anyone have any information on what infantry unit this was. These had to be some of the last US ground casualities.
Brad; There were MACV SOG/CCN folks in country untill mid july 1973. Other “civilians” and unconventional troops perhaps later. I may know someone who has a better memory than I. Let me know if you are still interested in perhaps some new info, perhaps not.
Welcome Home Ron! I believe that we were drafted on March 9th 1973 and trained together at Ft. Ord and then went to Ft Carson then on to Nam. I was with 1/7 Echo Co for Jan – August 1972. Please email me and I can tell what has been going on. We have had a couple of reunions and will be having another in 2013 in WI.
Ken Cook
Hey Ron
great to see another post from the 1/7th. I was in Delta company and was company clerk for a month had my ear to the phone line about the Battalion. If i can help?
fred
Just to know about any troops sent to vietnam during 1972, i was station in fort richarson alaska, and our unit 172 inf. was activated to go to num in the early of 1972, but thing cancel out , but my question any troops sent to vietnam during 1972?
Sorry to bust anyone’s bubble, but Tet 1968 was NOT the largest enemy offensive while the U.S. was still combat engaged! The Easter Offensive of 1972 was the largest, with an invasion across the DMZ and out of Laos in the I Corp sector and flanking movements along borders further south to try to “divide” the RSN. The 3/21 of the 196th was ‘moved’ to an A.O. north of Camp Evans in the spring of 1972 south of the river and Camp Carroll. 3/21 Inf. was the last “large” brigade in the Field in Vietnam until the extraction of Aug. 10th, 1972. B.J. Phillips, Co. D, 3/21, 196th L.I.B. 1971-72
Phillips, thank you for your post. I do have these comments.
1. As you information is 39 years old it’s unlikely to burst anyone’s bubble.
2. Can you tell me why you put the words moved and brigade in quotation marks? I’ve noticed this about Americans over the last few years, the incorrect use of quotation marks, and I haven’t been able to get to the source. Perhaps you can help.
3. While you are certainly correct that U.S. forces were combat engaged during the Easter Offensive, you fail to say that those forces were exclusively air and advisory. 3/21 never did engage the enemy and as the 196th was my last unit in Vietnam I consider this to be an act of cowardice second only to abandoning our ally to the North Vietnamese.
There was NO cowardice on the part of 3/21. They were in the field during the beginning of the Easter Offensive and took casualties while there. They were, however, ordered NOT to search out or seek engagement with the enemy by higher headquarters.
For the record, 3/21 was not a brigade, it was a reinforced battalion.
To imply that the men in 3/21 were cowards is just wrong and an absolutely incorrect reading of actual facts.
Relax Kennedy, I didn’t mean to say that the men of 3/21 were cowards, how could I know that, I was back at Fort Mead by then. I meant the United States, as I meant the United States abandoned its ally, South Vietnam when it became bored with its mismanagement of the war in Vietnam. It seems that your country, while certainly a great nation, is at times also capable of breathtaking feats of cowardice followed by very convenient bouts of amnesia.
Thanks for the correction on Brigade and Battalion! I’m just a grunt! Don’t know if we (3/21) had any specific “orders” not to engage the NVA or what was left to the VC, but we just went about business as usual. That is, Air insertions, search and destroy, Wedge and blocking, L.P.’s , O.P.’s etc. – nothing really changed in our ‘normal’ routine before , during , or after the Easter Offensive. We did, in about June or July, 1972 get two (2) enemy NVA kills, that just stumbled near our NDP shortly before dark, and I was told that one of the officers had NVA documentation to “avoid” American forces – he evidently didn’t do a very good job of that! I’m no history buff – I was just there.
Used the Quotation marks because that A.O., North of Camp Evans was not our “usual” area that we (3/21) operated. Was normally in the areas west and northwest of Danang. Perhaps you remember Charley Ridge and some of those other places. Don’t quite know what to think of your comment about courage or coward! – WE were just grunts and had no decision about where we were or who we confronted or engaged. Fortunetly, we did not engage while north of Camp Evans, but I, personally, attribute that to the B-52′s that stopped the NVA Easter Offensive or just plain luck! It is and was not grunts decision(s) to go to Vietnam, stay there as long as we did, or leave when the U.S. finally pulled out. Courage or being a coward had nothing to do with it as far as grunts were concerned! You need to crawl up some politicians ass when talking about abandoning the South Vietnam area!
Don’t believe for a minute that onl “air” and “advisory” forces were used during the 1972 Easter Offensive! The 1/7 of the 1st Cav took quite a few KIA’s and wounded in the early months of 1972, and the 196th had at least two(2) KIA in that same period of time. The 11th Cav took some hits too! Nixon had put ‘restictions’ on news coverage at that time and most of the public had no idea what was REALLY going on, even those at Ft. Meade. The percertion that Nixon wanted the public to ‘see’ was that the ARVN was capable of defending the southern part of Vietnam. News of a massive offensive by the NVA would have skewed that perception. The people of the U.S. had grown tired of that war, and congress went along with them.
Phillips… you may be on to something here and your post jogged my memory. I was the gunner on the last American battle tank in Vietnam, but because that machine belonged to the 26th Engineer Battalion, Americal Division, no one will ever know that. In any case, when the Americal stood down in November of 1971 my crew and I were shipped by LST to Danang to join the 196th LIB and I was given command of a CEV (Combat Engineer Vehicle, an M-60 tank modified for engineer tasks in the field) perhaps the last such machine in Vietnam.
In any event, in late January 1972 I rotated back to the States after 18 months in Vietnam and I left my crew and that CEV back in Danang. The Easter Offensive, as you know, started two months later. Now, during the entire American phase of the Indochina War there were said to be only three tank-on tank engagements, but in his book “Vietnam Tracks” Simon Dunstan says that there is a rumor that late in the war a CEV engaged and destroyed an NVA tank. If that rumor were to be true that CEV would have been my former CEV, manned by my former crew mates and everything you’re saying would be true. Fascinating. And after all these years.
Don’t know anything about U.S. vs NVA tank confrontations. I was just a grunt, but I do know there was definetely tank barriers, if you will, in the areas north of Camp Evans to try to stop or slow down NVA armour! Perhaps one of the engineers would know something of that “tank battle”, but I am totally unaware of such.
I would not characterize us as abandoning our ally, although some South Vietnamese would argue otherwise. They still blame Nixon for going to China, which they see as the beginning of the end. I was there at the end, rotating back to the world in late February ’73. There was tremendous political pressure to end the war, Nixon had promised to end the war. The Christmas bombings brought the North back to the table, but the South was as intransigent as usual. So a deal was struck without the South being advised and crammed down their throat. We had no leverage with the South because they could not come to grips with the concept that we would really leave. The South, over the years received billions in aid, training, hardware. Everything they needed to maintain their own country. They were left with all the tools they needed to stand, finally on their own two feet. Hardly cowardice.
Years later, I worked with former VNAF personnel who defended Tan Son Nhut. According to them, while the NVA was bombarding the airport, requests were made to Washington for guidance, what do they do now? No one answered the phone. The South Vietnamese had become so dependent on getting their orders from Washington that they had no idea how to make up their own decisions. Tough love for sure. In the end, the South was responsible for their own defense and they failed miserably, which should be no surprise to anyone who served there. I certainly was not surprised.
Lane, I wouldn’t expect n American to characterize the ignominious retreat from Vietnam as cowardice, but that is certainly what it was. First of all the it is instructive to note that every one, count them, every single one of The Best and the Brightest claimed that no one in Washington had any in-depth knowledge of Indochina. This while Bernard Fall (Street without Joy, Hell in a Very Small Place) was teaching at Howard University).
My point here is that throwing money at South Vietnam was not the cure, it was part of the disease. Reform, reform from the bottom up, starting with land ownership and land rents, up through military command structures so that district and province chiefs would be removed from military decisions, up through the General Staff. As the U.S created the country I cannot be persuaded to believe that this was not possible. The entire program is to lengthy to detail here but it’s not that complicated and it could have been done. Oh, and maybe not lying to the American people would also have been helpful.
Vidaurri, the U.S Congress abandoned it’s ally, South Vietnam in late 1974 by refusing to support that government with fuel and ammunition, etc. This betrayal had NOTHING to do with cowardice, however. It had EVERYTHING to do with the lack of moral turpitude on the part of certain U S politicians. Only a fool would mistake that for cowardice on the battlefield.
In 1972 the valiant fight put up by American airmen and others to assist the South Vietnamese in defeating the North Vietnamese’s Easter Offensive was ANYTHING but an act of cowardice!
Not committing 3/21 to the ground war in the 1972 Easter Offensive was a political decision made in Washington, NOT on the battlefield.
Mentioning 3/21 and “cowardice” in the same sentence is irresponsible and provocative. Was that your intention?
Kennedy… although after Spanish and French, English is my third language my conceit is that I can write it better than 99% of living Americans. This of course can be true and still be an insult. I believe, however, that in this case I don’t need your help composing my sentences. Once again, and for the last time, I did not mean to say that the men of 3/21 were cowards. I hope that this satisfies you.
Americans, or people from the United States tend to use slang about the same as people from Mexico and most other countries of the world does also. It is not imperative to speak or write in the perfect “Queens” english! Just chill out dude!
You wrote: “Kennedy… although after Spanish and French, English is my third language my conceit is that I can write it better than 99% of living Americans. This of course can be true and still be an insult. I believe, however, that in this case I don’t need your help composing my sentences. Once again, and for the last time, I did not mean to say that the men of 3/21 were cowards. I hope that this satisfies you.”
Your use of the world “cowardice” in characterizing America’s abandonment of their ally, South Vietnam, suggests that your understanding of the nuances of the English language do not match your grossly inflated opinion of your mastery of English.
Perhaps you should write in Spanish and have someone who DOES know how to use properly nuanced English translate for you…….
Kennedy… I almost forgot, it’s a holiday in your country isn’t it? That explains a great deal. Did we get into the Irish again? As for my English:
1. As this is an English language site it would hardly do for me to write my post in either Spanish or French now would it?
2. One of us is a published author – in English – and one of us isn’t, so mine isn’t the only opinion which I rely on when it comes to your language.
3. When the U.S. creates a little country, then occupies it, then forever alters it’s social and cultural character, then cobbles together a hasty treaty which leaves hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers within that little country’s borders as it makes its escape, I would call that cowardice. Its not a nuanced word because its not a nuanced concept.
4. I cannot for the life of me fathom why you would bother to re-type what I already wrote. Please don’t answer that, I’d rather cherish the memory.
Look, Kennedy, you’re probably not a bad egg, so why don’t you stop jousting with me?
Well, since this can of worms was opened up, I guess I might as well jump in with both feet. As we all know, the origins of the Civil War between North and South was the result of an agreement broken by Eisenhower. There was an agreement between the US and North Vietnam for unification, after two years of politicking a vote was to be held which government was to be the legitimate government of a unified Vietnam. Intelligence indicated that Ho Chi Minh would win the referendum and Eisenhower bailed on the deal to prevent yet another Soviet sponsored state to be formed. The end result is what we ended up with. Generally speaking, the average South Vietnamese could care less about the politics involved. They were more interested in their farms and families than anything else. Emperor Bao Dai was deposed by Diem in 1955 and that was the beginning of the end. What was there to choose from? A corrupt Saigon government or a government for the people as promised by the North? Some choice. Our goal was not to save South Vietnam for the people, but for our own political desires. When it was clear later on the war was unwinable, we bailed. We did leave the South with the tools to maintain their independence, but once we made the decision to leave, it was irrevocable. The South had to sink or swim on their own. The North broke the peace treaty and unified the country, which was their plan all along. It is true we created a country that was dependent upon US aid, but sometimes it is best to just walk away. No amount of money or fuel or resources could have prevented the fall of the Saigon government which did not have the support of the people.
Phillips, everyone loves a mystery and I think you may have just helped me solve a very juicy one. That rumor, it has been nagging and tugging at me for years, ever since I first read “Vietnam Tracks.” Why, I’ve asked myself, should a historic event, one of only four tank-on-tank engagements of a 12-year war, be nothing more than rumor? Up until I read your post I had no idea about the news restrictions (look, I hate to be nit-picky, but for your own good you simply have got to stop that misuse of quotation marks), so now it all makes sense. Stay with me here.
Asking just any combat engineer would do me no good. The fact that the 26th Engineers / Americal and then the Provisional Engineer Company / 196th LIB had the only battle tank (M48) in their respective formations was one of those bureaucratic flukes that the Army sometimes produces. When we turned that machine in for good in December of 1971, I was given command of a CEV which is TOE for an Engineer Armor Platoon, and a new crew. My old crew mates were dispersed among the platoon’s other vehicles: portable bridges, a tank retriever, no other CEVs, no more M48′s, nothing else that could shoot back. The CEV, I might add here, while not a real battle tank, carries a 165mm demolition gun. If that round were to land even within 20 meters of anything in the NVA armored arsenal it would at the very least stop it, a direct hit anywhere on the vehicle and the thing would have been history.
January 1972: My last month in Vietnam. The U.S. Army has sent most of its armor to Okinawa for rebuild and the machines are coming back to South Vietnam to equip new ARVN cavalry regiments. The training of those regiments is going poorly, which surprises no one.
January 22, 1972: I rotate, reluctantly because my request for a second extension has been denied, back to the States, which to me is a foreign country, and for the next 40 years, aside from intense study I lose track of what I will forever consider MY WAR – until this morning.
What now? As I said, Phillips, asking just any combat engineer would be an meaningless exercise. But asking the the former Sergeant Jose Hernandez from Coahuila Mexico (ever wonder why there so many of my countrymen in your Army?), who stayed behind when I deros’d would. Because Sgt Hernandez would have been the only man left in the Armor Platoon who would have been qualified to TC that tank…. and if he’s still among the living I think I can get his telephone number.
If life were a thousand year long, Phillips I could never tell you how much I appreciate what you have done for me and I’m certain for my former crew mates.
Best and nay God bless you,
Richard Vidaurri
Guadalajara, Mexico
P.s. Do you think that perhaps I can persuade you to stop saying “I was only a grunt?” Who do you think fought that war anyway?
I probably use the term “I was only a grunt” first out of pride – WE WERE SPECIAL! But, also to let you know that in most cases we were very underinformed as to the BIG picture of what was really going on. In the Easter Offensive I do not believe any NVA armor made it much farther south than southern Quang Tri area in I corp A.O., and I heard nothing about action near DaNang. As stated before the invasion was basically a conventional thrust from the DMZ and Laos, and, I think the NVA intentions was to do the same as they eventually did in 1975 against the ARVN – continuing south to Saigon! Also, I did hear about NVA tank confrontations in the An Loc area further south, but it was always U.S. aerial involved in those battles. Thanks for your service and your countrymen!
I can personally attest to NVA tanks NW of Lai Khe on 12 November 1972, at least three of them. I cannot say whether we had crossed the border, although my pilot suggested we were in Cambodia. We were sent by Chuck-Chuck to investigate reports of three tanks. Sure enough we found them. We followed the tracks from one location to another and found them in a semi-circle in ‘cut outs’ in the foliage….much to our surprise, all three hatches were open and no one was around…..so we decided to drop willie pete’s down the hatches…though we had to do it fast..so we slid sideways, never stopping, me pulling pins and dropping them as fast as I could…got all three. Our snakes did not have the firepower to take them out and the Tow Bird from Fox 8 was dinking around trying to take out a truck full of pigs, in a jungle….which eventually we had to take care of later. So up the tanks went up, presumably Tac Air took care of them later as they were well marked.
I stand corrected, we where staging out of Tay Ninh, the tanks were NW of there, past Nu Ba Dinh. I was not familiar with FSB Grunt II, but we did do autorotations on top of the flag pole at Bunker Hill.
“i was only a grunt” and I was 1/7th 1971/1972 we did what we where told and never new why. UNTIL I saw a re-election poster for President Richard Nixon. It stated “Why change dicks in the middle of a screw vote for Nixon in 72.” It’s good to be home i think.
Zink….. I enlisted into the U.S. Army when I was 17 years old. I had never been to the States up until that time. I turned 19 and then 20 in Vietnam and I hated leaving the place. My brother also served in the Army, my son recently served with 2nd battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. Ever since Lieutenant Atanacio Vidaurri served with the Texas Militia during the American Civil War the men in my family have been deeply loyal to the U.S. (or in Atanacio’s case C.S.A.) Army. Some men are just born with the soldier gene, I guess.
Most Americans will never know of the intense suffering endured by the American infantryman in Vietnam. They’ve never cared and they don’t want to hear about it now. And the Army was very much to blame for that misery. There was, for instance, no reason to keep men out in the field during monsoon, month after month without a single stand-down to their base camp. It was inhuman that their own side would do that to them while the base camps were teeming with unemployed men with nothing to do but go insane with boredom and then turn to alcohol and heroin. And who thought up the Individual Replacement Policy? Was that a stroke of genius or what?
How many Americans do you suppose know that the American infantryman in the Pacific in WWII, over a three year period, saw combat an average of 40 days, but in Vietnam, over a single year, it was 240 days? Who volunteers to go out and find a military-age American who would care?
Vidaurri steps down from soap box, stands down for remainder of day. Bless you all.
Fran… you’re back? And speaking of old…. last I heard they’d put you away in a menopause asylum. (Sorry, but you ought to know better than launch unprovoked attacks on me.)
Richard V. – Back? I have been here. Watching you provoke people and then tell them to ‘relax’. Listen.. evidently.. you have no idea who I am. And most importantly… you have no idea who Colonel Kennedy is.. or else you would never be so disrespectful to him. Mark my words.
Well, I know who you are not, Fran. You aren’t a veteran of anything but the J.C. Penny’s President’s Day Sale. You’re the nut case who flamed out at me once for referring to platoons and squads, versus brigades and divisions as “odds and ends. You’re a neurotic old bird who’s husband lied to her about his service and now has been frantically searching for phantom proof of of things, places, and events she’ll never, ever find. Am I getting warm?
The more you pick at me the worse it’s going to get.
Richard V. – Poor Baby… Been this way all your life?
For your information.. my husband is 100 percent Permanent and Total … 210 percent cumulative. His troop was part of the 11th Combat Aviation Group of which Colonel Kennedy was S3. Jim was a doorgunner on UH-1 helicopter. He served on the Nighthawk bird along with others that returned as well. There are more than Colonel Kennedy of the 67 plus members that meet at our reunions each year that know Jim and of his service. We need absolutely no validation from anyone to prove his service or mine. I served MY country as a United States Marine and require no benefits.
Unlike a parasite like you, who thinks he knows something, Colonel Kennedy and the rest of the troop who are actual combat veterans laugh when we understand the degree of your stupidity and realize there really is no point in having a conversation with you.
(P.S. My husband married a younger wife and I am totally freaking HOT.. So your insults are totally falling on deaf ears.)
As well, I am here on this site to help other REAL Vietnam Veterans not to tell everyone how awesome I am all the time like you. Compensating?????
Fran… “totally freaking hot” Yes, I hear that’s one of the symptoms. If Kennedy is an “actual combat veteran” would that make me a what, an “unactual combat veteran?” Please don’t stop, I’m starting to enjoy this. Same with “REAL Vietnam Veterans. so I spent 18 months in an UNREAL Vietnam, is that what you’re saying?
If I’m a parasite presumably I”m feeding off of something or someone. Any ideas there?
As for that last word, Fran, I think only you would be qualified to comment.
This thread started out very interesting and has been very beneficial to many of us who served a tour in Viet Nam. Unfortunately, it has The time I spent in Viet Nam as a young Lieutenant flying Cobra Helicopters during the Easter offensive of 1972.was a significant event in my life as I believe it was for many others who have posted on this site.
Please stop the personal attacks and political comments and focus on the details of what happened at the small unit level.
Respectfully,
Dave Wallace D-229th AHB and H Troop 10th Air Cavalry
I have been posting on this site for many years and have enjoyed it immensely listening and learning from everyone here. It has been to my dismay to see it digress into provoking statements and unnecessary insults in the last few months.
Lacking the fine diplomacy skills of Dave Wallace (Thank You!)… I digressed as well by calling it as I saw it and dishing back what was served to me.
See, Kennedy (not trying to be cute, in Latin countries men other than close friends address each other by paternal surname) I knew you were a much nicer man than I can ever hope to be.) Anyway, as you undoubtedly know,for Catholics, the Lenten season is a time of retrospection and penance. But in my household that time comes next week. Because every year, it is the first day of December that I take Gabrielle d’Amboise-Vidaurri to New York City for one week of shopping for her and penance for me. Ha… and you folks complain about your national debt.
So, Kennedy, although I’m certain that you don’t wish such a thing you’ll have your revenge. I won’t return to this board unless and until I make contact with the former Sergeant Hernandez, M-48 Tank Commander, and see if he can shed light on that rumor of the fourth and last tank-on-tank battle of the Vietnam War. If so I’m going to need a lot of help getting it into the official records.
For the record, the TOW B Model Huey when attached F/8 Air Cav, never operated anywhere near Lai Khe. Don’t know who owned the TOW helo chasing them pigs around but it was not attached to F/8 at the time.
I thought I had made the correction from Lai Khe to Tay Ninh. There is something weird about that day as well that I have not been able to nail down. For years I have been trying to chase down my orders for the DFC I was awarded for that action. To no avail I might add. I know when and who signed the orders, but there appears to be no record to be found. Anyway, while I was trying to track down that date, found the after action reports for that time period. Oddly enough, I could not find any reference to that day (which was a really big thing) and what transpired from F/9′s records. What I did find though was an after action report from F/8 which closely resembles what happened that day, and it was signed by Major Dantzler (what an act he was).
As for the TOW bird, I have no idea who it belonged to. All I know was we got directed to the area and I got up close and personal with the 40mm CS and 60 fire. From the direction we came from, there were plenty of trees, but on the opposite side (I could never figure out where north or south was) it was fairly open. Thinking back, if VNAF or ARVN had one, maybe it was them. We were told there was a VNAF helicopter base at Dau Tieng, which I suppose would have been closest. I don’t t remember ever flying missions with F/8 at all. We all went our own separate ways. Frankly, I don’t remember them doing much of anything after they came down, we always flew first and last light. The only contact we had with them was the CS and pin flare wars at night. We pulled main gate guard as well. We had to be on the lookout for Major Dantzler because he would sit in his jeep at night down by the water tank by the motor pool in the shadows in case we let his guys come in with um……guilty pleasures. We would direct his guys to take the ‘back way’ if they were um…in possession.
John,
I was only commenting that the TOW system was not attached to F Troop, 8th Cav at that time. It definitely was NOT a VNAF bird though.
Lost award citations and orders were very common at that time. Knowing who signed the order might help you track down your DFC award. I assisted three members from F/8 obtain their DFCs in 2003. The entire award recommendation had to be resubmitted! If I can be of any assistance to you in that matter do not hesitate to contact me.
I take it you were assigned to F/9th? Ironically, I was supposed to take command of F/9 when I arrived in Vietnam but ended up commanding F/8 instead.
Regarding your encounter with the NVA tanks in November of 1972, F/8 took part in an encounter with a T-54 in the summer of 1972. An NVA tank was reported stuck in a river bottom and the SS-11 MIKE Model Huey attached to F/8 was sent out to destroy it. Escorted by 4 F/8 Cobras, the SS-11 Bird made 6 runs on the target, never receiving ANY fire from the tank. It apparently had been abandoned! Five of the 6 SS-11 wire guided missiles missed the tank and a 6th missile would not come off the rail. The ARVN later reported the tank as being “killed” having been hit by 4 Cobra loads of 2.75 rockets. I know of no other instance in MR I where helicopters engaged enemy tanks during the Easter Offensive.
I am pretty sure the T-54 I am referring to was not destroyed by F-4s unless, of course, they were carrying 2.75 rockets. And, as I recall, that was about the time the USAF would not operate below 10,000 feet in MR I due to the threat from the SA-7 Strella missile. Kind of hard to hit a lonely T-54 with dumb ordnance from the spectator seats…….
The ARVN reported to FRAC “numerous” 2.75 rocket hits on the tank producing a mobilty kill.
I was with F/9 from September 1972 until were stood down in mid-February 1973. As I recall F/8 came to Bien Hoa in October. I don’t remember seeing a TOW bird with them, they did have one OH-6 with a minigun, which was taken out by command detonated claymore (so I was told) in a clump of trees. The date of my encounter was 12 November 1972. I remember that day all to well. I could not say if they were T34 or T54′s, what did I know about tanks? The last thing I remember before went looking for them was ‘Sabre 14, be advised no friendly activity in the past 5′. They were easy to find, just followed the tracks. There three in a semi-circle and hatches open. Down the hatches went the frags. Wally Gator (Sabre 14) was funny, he was trying to figure out the best way to drop them, we chose on flying sideways. It was after that when we were sent to look for the trucks the TOW bird could not hit. I know we did not have one. After that, after refueling we just took off from Tay Ninh and got the emergency call to rescue two VNAF pilots who got blown out of the sky in the Michelin, SA-7′s. We were the only one’s in the air and so we went…..the rest is history. When did Major Dantzler take over F/8? You were supposed to replace Major Hewitt with F/9?
Major Hewlett took over F/9 in May of 1972. His predecessor Major Coleman McDevitt left command of F/9 in April of 1972. I got in country in March of 1972 and was originally designated as Major McDevitt’s replacement. Meanwhile, up North, Major William Head took over F/8 in January of 1972 and went home on emergency leave in March of 1972. I was sent from my position as S-3 of the 229th Combat Aviation Battalion at Bien Hoa to Marble Mountain in March of 1972 to replace Major Head.
Major Dantzler replaced me in October of 1972 when I was assigned as the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group. Shortly after that the 11th CAG was tasked to send one it’s three air cavalry troops South. F/8 was in the best position to fulfill this tasking so they were selected and sent ot the 12th CAG.
Major Dantzler was an odd duck according to his troops. From what we could tell, they were not a very well disciplined unit. I mean F/9 wasn’t disciplined as one would expect back in the world, we were basically self policing if you know what I mean. F/8 seemed to us to be pretty much a bunch of misfits, no offense meant. Maybe it was sibling rivalry. We had been the only Cav unit in the area and were always busy. Maybe we were a bit territorial.
F/8 shared MR I with two other air cavalry troops , F/4 and D/17. F/8 lived in Marble Mountain and then “Dogpatch” at Danang Main with D/17 and NEVER had an incident with D/17. In fact, whenever either one of the other two air cavalry Troops got in trouble or if we did, the rest would come to the rescue like blood brothers. This was demonstrated over and over again throughout the Easter Offensive.
I have no idea why some in F/9, a grand old air cavalry troop like F/8, did not get along with F/8 but I can GUARANTEE you that it had nothing to do with F/8 being a bunch of “misfits”! Perhaps having another classy air cavalry troop in town was something they just were not used to handling.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, it was nice to have some sort of back up when F/8 came down. Yes, I would characterize the situation like a sibling rivalry. We were separated by the motor pool, but shared the same gate as we only had one. I used the term misfits in the context that they weren’t very well disciplined, I suspect they might have been cobbled together. Maybe disciplined is not the best term. They were the ones who usually started the CS wars. Good clean fun I suppose. They had some really wild guys over there. One guy was a native American with a bit of a drinking problem, one night he put on his war paint and climbed up on the roof of one of the hootches screaming his ‘war cry’. Took quite a bit to get him down. Don’t get me wrong, we had our strange birds too. One guy was so burned out, probably scag, he was with the Blues thankfully, one night he came out on the flight line, all blacked out with a flashlight claiming to find the tunnel to Saigon, but the little green men would not let him pass.
I suppose it did irk them a bit that we had our ‘Fort Courage’ rotor blade marking our territory. Then again, they too were an ‘F’ troop.
Yes, SA-7′s were a problem. All out birds had the IR deflectors and we never lost one due to a a Strella. I remember when that Shithook went down in III Corp, down in the Delta all souls lost, we were told that they were then ordered not to fly above 300 feet because the SA-7 could not lock on that low. All we knew for sure was 0-9000ft in 4 secs is nothing to be trifled with. Which makes the two VNAF jets being taken down by SA-7′s in the Michelin all the stranger to us. By the time we got there, we knew what they may have been after, lots of bad guys and at least one 23mm antiaircraft weapon. Maybe a target of opportunity? It just seemed odd because we weren’t working the AO. Maybe a couple of cowboys? The guy I collected was actually wearing cowboy boots.
John, were you with the Blues in April or May of ’72 during the Easter Offensive?
Our Blue Team got a couple of days off and I went to the flight line to hop a ride to Vung Tau. They said they had an infantry going down later in the afternoon. I decided not to wait and hitchhiked down and when I got there, I found out 33 guys got killed when it went down. I thought that hook went down as a result of a chain breaking.
Isolated? Well, with arrows sticking out of that old wooden fort wall who cut the knowing wanted to go there?!
Are you referring to the Chinook that went down near a firebase outside of Bien Hoa? If you are, that was the fire base I was at in May of 72. I was part of the clean up crew. It was called Fire Base Melanie.
I flew guns for F/9 during the 1972 Easter Offensive. Not sure when I left county, but I found an OER signed by MAJ George P. Hewlett, dated 24 June 1972. I also have an OER that covered the period thru September 1972, which sounds about right. Most official records say the last combat troops from the 1st Cav left Viet Nam on 21 June 1972. However, when I left Viet Nam (almost sure it was Sep 72) members of the F/9 Air Cav were still flying combat operations. I guess it really does not matter to many folks now.
Maj. Hewitt was the CO of F/9 when we were disbanded in Feb 1973. We were definitely still flying up until the cease fire in January, every single day.
Oh, I spoke with Wally Gator some years back, he asked if I got my DFC, which I was awarded with no fanfare at HQ 782d Maint. Bn. in May of 1973. The odd thing was that when I left the army, there was no record of it in my 201 file, nor does the Army seem to have any record of it. Major Hewitt said it’s not unusual because were weren’t really a ‘real’ unit, a quasi-provisional one, but the paperwork does exist, just he has no idea where. The orders came from 12th CAG, Lt. Col. McQueen signed them on or about 13 February 1973, SO 212 as I recall. Wally asked as he was awarded a Silver Star for 12 November and wanted to know if I got my DFC. Unfortunately for me, I sent all my records to my mother and they were destroyed in a flood in Ft. Kent, ME long ago. It’s just one of those things that has been nagging me for many years.
I would write to the National Archives and ask them how you can obtain Special Orders from the 12th CAG from January, 1973 until they stood down in RVN in March of 1973. Give them the SO number you think it is for starters.
Another approach would be to have Major Hewett and any other survivors you can find to reconstruct the action that day in the form of a belated awards recommendation. DoD has an awards section that assists in processing lost award recommendations.
Anyway you look at it, it was almost criminal how badly awards were handled in the last days of the war. Lieutenant Jim McQuade’s Medal of Honor recommendation was lost and had to be resubmitted a year and a half later!
I am sorry this has happened to you and countless other brave men who deserved better.
ok a was a little off hand…last time. I am now an accredted Doc. working with so many of the “unknowns”:, your final comment about the medals and all was moving….you know those medals are dated (lacking poser infiltration), please General give them what they are due….we all know who we are succeeded in “dot connecting”. Boots left in small units way up till 1977! I feel you know this…. it is not about benifits or money it is about recognition! So many “small” units” did not know the “wire” displacment or deployment reasons. or whom they were advising at the time!…it is a job and they were SPECIAL!
Im proud to have served with the 11th cag led by col cass in 1972.
regardless of who was first or last in country i have a deep respect
for all who answered the call to duty. some gave the ultimate
sacrifice while others came home broken in body or spirit. at
the end of the day in my mind this is still the greatest nation in
the history of the world. god bless america
I have read the previous posts with great interest and some frustration. I was recruited into F/8 by my former stick buddy in Flight School, Dusty Holm. Sadly, he was killed just before I stood down the last remnants of the 48th AHC (Blue Stars) at Marble Mtn and reported to Major Jack Kennedy, Troop CO of F/8. He assigned me as the Blues Platoon Leader, I suppose because I was Ranger qualified….not common for a pilot in those days.
I participated in operations across I Corps until October 1972 when we deployed to III Corps and Bien Hoa AFB. As Blue Ghost Blue I primarily functioned as an AMC for recon, search and rescue, BDA and quick response missions, while also serving as the Blues Plt Ldr. We used our blues for unit security, some on-ground BDA and SAR functions. When we arrived at Bien Hoa, most of the American infantry were pulled out and sent home and we received Chinese Nungs as replacements. They had their own Platoon Leader who was Chinese.
Upon arrival in III Corps, myself, the Troop CO and the Gun Plt Ldr attended a briefing where we were told our primary mission was to find an NVA/Russian 130MM Towed Arty BN that intel was tracking West of Nui Ba Din and that they believed was intending to get near Saigon in order to bring it under indirect Arty fires…..talk about a potential game changer! So that is what we did until we found it in late October. We engaged it until the Air Force brought in heavy air, to include an Arc Light. That was a hell of day and an interesting story! No one got a single award from any US military command for that operation! In 1974 I received, via the U.S. Air Force, an VN Cross of Gallantry for the operation. The Army refused to award it to me and it is not in my records. I do have the citation and the medal.
When I came back to the US in Dec 1972, I DROS’d with a load of unit members for F/8 and F/9. We were stripped of all clothing and records, to include 201 files, orders, wallets, flight logbooks and cameras…everything but our ID cards and Dog Tags. We were given civilian clothing on the flight line and all the liquor we could carry. We boarded at Pan AM 707 and flew home. Upon arrival at Travis AFB, we were given $300, an airline ticket to our home of record and told to wait at our homes for orders. I went home and received orders for a Chinook unit at Fort Bragg. Upon arrival there, I had no records, they had no records for me and Branch told me they were trying to find them. They never did and I still have no official records for that period of my service. I did keep and send home some of the routine unit orders, such as extra duty orders.
I retired as a Colonel O-6 in 2000. For every promotion board during my career I had to provide evidence of my service for this period, My Official US Army Personnel microfiche simply has a letter from the G-1, 18th Airborne Corps in it that states “the whereabouts of Captain Hoffman during 1972 are unknown by this command”. There are pay records of course, but they do not provide evidence of Honorable Service, just regular pay, flight pay and combat pay. The VA does not except pay records as evidence of combat service……very strange.
I never smoked but I have lung cancer now. My Dad was also in RVN in 1972 (his third tour) as an Air Force Colonel working with South Vietnamese Air Force units around RVN and he died in 2010 of lung cancer. It took me two me two years to convince the VA that I was in RVN. The National Personnel Records Center in St Louis reports that they can find no records for me in RVN or for F/8 after August 1972 and they told Senator Burr (NC) that they believe that all records for Soldiers in RVN in 1972-73 were burned in a mysterious fire in 1973. If you did not keep your own copies, you have little to prove your combat service during this period. While I do have my own records for some Air Medals for flight operations and a Bronze Star from August 1972 (while assigned to the 48th), I have no other A&D for my service in RVN. These are no in records at NPRS, so it is tough to make the case. Testimonials from other unit members are the best help but your application to the VA will be at the bottom of the pile.
My son is now an Army Major in special operations with 10 tours in SW Asia under his belt. I counsel him regularly on record keeping.
Col. Hoffman, interesting you mentioned the VN Cross of Gallantry. I received mine over on the Air Force side in Dec 72 for action on 12 November 72. It was an action where, with F/9, we were involved with collecting two downed VNAF pilots in the Michelin. Maybe you can shed some light on this emergency operation. Originally I was operating west of Nu Ba Din (not suggesting we were in Cambodia) looking and finding three Russian tanks. After refueling we were called out to the Michelin. Upon reflection of that action and the way it happened and after reading the F/8 after action report (even though I was with F/9), it raises some questions. I could find no reference to this action from Major Hewitt from F/9, however I did find an after action report from Major Dantzler that was generally speaking what we had done. I have always found this curious. I was unaware of any joint F/8 and F/9 operations, but I wonder now if the call we received actually came from F/8 and since we had just lifted off from Tay Ninh after refueling, we got the call. It was all very confusing at first, all we knew was that two VNAF pilots got shot down in the Michelin and no one knew where they were. Is it possible that Dantzler took credit for something we did?
As for your records. I left in Feb 1973 and I know that 12th CAG was scrambling to close up shop and I was told later that a lot of the paperwork was squirreled away in some repository outside DC, this according the Mr. Lundwall (Wally Gator), from Major Hewitt. I have been able to find many records online, just takes a lot of patience and thinking outside the box. What you cannot find online directly because the records have not been scanned, you can still do a search and locate records and then make the request with the box numbers. We were a provisional unit (F/9) and as I recall F/8 was also a consolidation unit, which also leads to problems of tracking down records. If you left in Dec 72, and F/8 had just showed up from 11 CAG, I can imagine why the records are screwed up.
Frankly I am glad you guys came down as it was pretty lonely being the only Cav unit around, we were pretty busy. As you know all too well, where we were located at Bien Hoa, we were pretty isolated on the whole base.
colonel jack Kennedy,i would like to ask you a question in relation to the loss of army services document in 1972 in Nam,what is going to happen with all this soldiers who serve in Nam and there is not record proved of serve in Nam cos as you mention before what went on that time with documentations got destroy it and burn,so is that means my army documents got destroy or burn?and what can i do now.i have been waiting for 41 years for the DVA in Australia and USA to accepting my claim.i was in vang tau and in long binh hospital as a field medic from 71-72.i volunteer to go to longh binh to help to pack up and clean up. please feel free to contact me
yours sincerely
Henry Gutierrez
I am not aware of any mass destruction of records kept in the USA documenting the service of soldiers who served in Vietnam. If you have lost your discharge DD Form 214 you can obtain a replacement through the following site:
Great speaking with you today. Sometime, somewhere, someone needs to capture the history of F/8 during this period and publish it!
Speaking of the 50 ship lift back into Quang Tri, I have a few pictures from that mission. One of them shows the destruction on HWY 1 as we flew north after departing the main PZ north of Hue near the old R&R station. There is a PT-76 in the frame just before it fired its main gun (76m) at our formation. Of Course he mised and was immediately creamed with 2.75 rockets. In that same frame is a downed F-4 in the distance. Another shows all of the US helicopters on the ground in the PZ waiting to load the ARVN troops. I was not in F/8 at that point, I was in then 48th, also flying out of Marble Mtn. I did not transfer into F/8 until the first of August, 1972.
I was one of the AMCs for that mission to Chu Lai, as you may recall, where we operated from Rosemary’s Point to support operations in the southern part of the province. That was the first time that Dick Blystone from AP spent a week flying on missions with us. I still have a TWX copy of an article he did on that young boy who hung around us at Chu Lai and worked in the small O’Club that the Spec Ops guys operated there. I spoke to him years later in London in 1995, when he was the CNN Bureau Chief there. I was on my way to Moscow for meetings with the Russian Military on sharing access to their remote sensing satellite systems as a part of a Gore-Chernomyrdin Commission project. He remembered the times he flew with F/8 in I Corp and III Corp in late 1972. He still had photos and he gave me several copies, including one of me flying a mission near Nui Ba Din. Small world!
I knew Dane from ROTC at ASU and when I just saw Dane Hatley’s comments, it brought back some amusing memories. The last time I saw Dane was at Lai Khe 23 Jun 1972. I had just been shot down along with CPT Paul “Bimbo” Lent in a Smiling tiger (D-229th AHB) snake somewhere SE of Quon Loi. A Bravo troop slick picked us up within five scary minutes and dropped us off on the air strip at Lai Khe. I think F/9 also lost a snake that day or at least within a couple of days of the 23rd. I think 1LT Karl Bruener was the front seat, but I no longer remember the back seat
Dane was sitting by a tree eating a loaf of french bread and drinking a coke which I think he said he bought from a mamasan. When Dane saw me he said “Wallace you look like shit” and offered me some bread and part of his soda. I have a vivid memory of this, but when I talked with Dane a few years back he had no memory of this event :–).
I finished up my combat tour with H troop 10th Cavalry at An Son in II Corp and we flew combat missions right up to the cease fire. If any of you have a chance to read the VFW magazine (Feb 2013 issue) Richard Koob has written a good article talking about the Air Cav troops there at the end. God Bless all you old Cavtroopers–We stood our watch!
I SERVED WITH A GUY AT FT STUART GA.AFTER MY TOUR NAME OF NEAL KENNEDY.I BELIEVE HE WAS A GUNNER WITH THE 229TH ANYONE KNOW HIM.STILL LOOKING FOR INFO ABOUT MAN WOUNDED WHEN SGT. LYNN BISCAMP WAS K.I.A. ALSO ANY INFO ON 7TH CAV OR GARRY OWEN TASK FORCE REUNIONS. MONTOYARICH12@YAHOO.COMM
I was in Vietnam from Feb 1972 until Feb 1973, shortly after the “peace agreement” was signed in Paris. I began as a forward observer with F Btry, 26th Arty, part of Task Force Gary Owen, 1st Cav Division, at Bien Hoa. I remember the S3, the young-looking major Binford Peay, who later commanded the 101st Abn Div in Desert Storm, and as a four-star, USCENTCOM.
There was a shortage of forward observers (FOs), so I served with three different infantry companies operating out of Fire base Melanie.
On 10 May 1972, while with D/2/8, 1st Cav, call sign “angry skipper,” one of the platoons and I were bumped from a Chinook at Bien Hua as the company was being flown to Vung Tau for in-country R&R. While waiting for the next lift, word came back that the chopper had gone down and a full-strength company was slated to combat assault into the area to secure the chopper. There was no FO with this company, so I had to go with them into the area.
When we were air-lifted in there was only the charred remains of the chopper, with bodies scattered a few hundred yards around the site. The Chinook had lost a blade, went out of control, and troops spilled out of the open ramp at the back. All were burned because a fire consumed them and the vegetation all around the site – no survivors. The heat was so intense from the burning fuel that the magnesium alloy of the chopper ignited and increased the temperature, melting parts of weapons and the chopper itself. However, the bodies retained their shapes, but uniforms, helmets, and skin were burned to a jet black color.
I had known everyone in that platoon (Skull), so was more connected to the troops from the chopper than the troops of my new company. When the bodies were recovered and the remains of the chopper removed for analysis – it took about three days – I remained with the company as it moved off on a regular patrol.
In August 1972 my six months with the new company and the 1st. Cavalry Division ended when the last unit was flown back to the US.
I served the remaining six months as the senior adviser to the ARVN 104th Artillery Battalion, at Long Binh, a newly-forming unit being equipped with 175 mm self-propelled artillery guns. I had another lieutenant, Don Moran, a Citidal graduate, and two NCOs to assist.
Thiáşżu tĆ°á»›ng (major) Than, the battalion commander, was a true professional who as a captain had commanded an artillery battery during the 1968 Tet Offensive which had accounted for large numbers of Viet Cong KIAs. When the Paris “Peace Agreement” was signed in Feb 1973, he, and his officers, told us the NVA would not honor the agreement and would invade again. I ofter wonder what became of him.
As for the chopper crash: For the most part we didn’t use each others names, especially in the bush. This was especially true for me, because I was mostly with my supported companies in the field, and would generally return to my parent artillery back in the base.
Without knowing their names I could not look them up when visiting the Vietnam memorial (I live in the DC area). I eventually found them through the “Angry Skipper” web site: http://angryskipperassociation.org/ when I clicked on D/2/8 Honor Roll and found about 21 KIAs on May 10th, 1972, and the name of the company commander, Cpt Ken Rosenberg I knew I had found them. I clicked on Ken’s name and saw his photo. He seemed much older back in 72, but to me now looks much younger.
Since then my wife and I have been to about 4 Angry Skipper reunions, which take place in different locations in the US, and about every four years in Washington, when we have a ceremony at the Vietnam memorial. When we were there in 2011 I got Fred Downs, a neighbor who wrote “The Killing Zine, my life in the Vietnam War” (a gripping read) as the guest speaker. He gave a great presentation and was very warmly received. Here is one of the Angry Skipper newsletters: http://angryskipperassociation.org/pdf_documents/ASA%20Newsletter%202012%20January.pdf
We look forward to our next reunion in June in San Diego.
Unbelievable – Someone else who remembers Malanie. I was there in ’72. I was on the last chopper out with the Major when we turned it over to the ARVN. I have search everywhere for references to Melanie without much success. I was an E5 in Echo Company. After turning the FB over to the ARVN, I was relocated to the Army Base at Bien Hoa and was manning one of the radar towers the morning of the August 1st Rocket attack on the Army and Air Force Bases. I remember thinking – My last day at Bien Hoa and they have have to attack today. I was scheduled to leave for Tan Son Nhut Air Base for processing out of country back to the world on that day.
I was a 1LT FO walking with A/2/8th out of Melanie from the beginning of 1972 until June 1972. I remember the Chinook crash. We were in the bush at the time. Our company CO was Fred Vengelen, a great guy. Platoon leaders were Bob Clark (later CG of the 101st), Dave Carr and Robb Stewart. I am still in touch with Clark, and saw LTC Blagg years ago. He lives in Colorado. Long time ago.
We had a few days off from the 229th Blue Team so I decided to go to Vung Tau. I went to the airfield to see if they had any birds going out and they told me they did in the afternoon. It was morning so I decided to, literally, hitchhike.
I caught a ride with two or three different Vietnamese and when I got to the gate at Vung Tau they asked me if I was from the bird that went down. That’s when I learned about it.
Tragic.
Michael Evenson did I talk to you before about E Co, their Facebook page and reunions?
I also have a Facebook page called Garryowen Riff Raff. Guys from E Co include Tom Preece, Pat Jones, Larry Berber, Alton Eckert and several others you may know.
We have some D Co guys like Walter Roberts, Pete Schag (both medics), Doug Stamper (radio), etc.
Hit me up if you’re interested and have a FB page.
Michael Evenson here are some other names from the page: Bruce Goetsche, Tom King, Shannon Gibson, George Potter, Robby McPhail and Paul Wessman (FO) to name a few others.
There is also a new challenge coin, if you’re interested.
face book – michael.evenson@facebook.com – I’ve got some pictures of Fire Base Melanie posted. It’s been 40+ years so none of the names ring a bell. My forgetter is wroking better than my rememberer these days.
Does anyone know of a couple sniper teams that went in during the early part of 1974. The LTC in charge told us that we were going where we were not supposed to be, doing what we were not supposed to do. We did get about 37 total alive and dead. I was only 20 years old at the time and now I suffer from sleep apnea, PTSD, Night Mares and several other things that the VA prescribe medication for me. I am classified by the VA hospital as 100% disabled, Home Bound and require aid and attendance. The VA says they have lost about the first 2 and a Half years of my records but the VA doctors say that the problems I have would only come from what I went through in Vietnam, I am 59 years old now and have been this way for about 10 years now. The PTSD group I am in has about 24 in it and we are all in our late 50′s and early 60′s.
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The “Gary Owen Task Force”, a brigade of the 1st Cavalry was still in country near Saigon as a combat infantry unit in August of 1972. Probably left about the same time that month as the 82d FA elements up north.
I was infantry assign to a mortar section. I left Vietnam between Mar-May of 1973
There is still so much about this war that is ‘unknown’ except by the people who were there and lived it.
I was also with Co A and Co D, 1/7 in 1971 and thenworked with the Blue Teams of the 229th during the Easter Offensive of 1972, mostly over An Loc, destroying downed aircraft and picking up pilots. The Garry Owen stand down was late June of 1972.
We stopped all active patrol missions within about a month or so of that. We closed down firebase Spudis sometime around July 15th or so right after my friend Robert D. Hamilton was killed on July 4th. It was the last active 1/7 firebase (after Grunt II and Crossed Sabers).
I left country August 13th.
Ricardo, you say that you were with a mortar section March – May 1973? Can you tell me what unit and where you were located? I’m very interested in this because I am writing a book (my 2nd about Vietnam) about the last year of America’s involvement there: March 1972 until March 29, 1973.
Richard Vidaurri
Americal Division
1970-72
Mortar platoon in 72/73? I was in country in 72/73 and there were no ground pounders left, at least that I was aware of. All our guys ‘flew’.
How can anyone say that the last ground pounders left before April of 72. I was still on Fire Support Base Melanie until June 26 1972. When I transfered to the Garry Owen Task Force in Bien Hoa in late June of 72, we were still doing active Search and Destroy missions from Fire Support Base Green. Maybe all the upper echelon left, but I can assure you that we still a a ground presence after March 30 1972. Anyone who says anything to the contrary is either misinformed or just plain lying.
It appears, from the Order of Battle published by the VHPA, that ALL of the Air Cav Troops in Vietnam were stood down February 1973.
It is not true that all of US combat troops were out of Vietnam by 1972.
IF it was said all of the “ground” troops were out of Vietnam by 1972, that would have been closer to being correct BUT for the fact that each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry Platoon assigned.
Fran Lawrence and Jerry Morelock:
I’ve been reading this thread with great interest. I’m working on a 2n book about Vietnam which will be set during the last year of the U.S. phase of Indochina, March 1972 to 29 March, 1973.
Among my reference works I rely heavily on Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle. According to Stanton you left RVN along with the rest of the 196th LIB on 29 June, 1972. B Battery’s assets, while it may have appeared to you to have gone to your sister battery, C / 3 / 82 FA, actually went to a newly formed Provisional Battery G / 29th FA, which was the successor to C Battery. It was that G Battery that formed a task force with 3rd Battalion / 21st Infantry, which you mention.
All that said it appears to me that any confusion as far as last combat unit in Vietnam is really a matter of “combat unit” vs. “ground combat unit.” Stanton calls the 3 / 21 Infantry (without mention to a task force) the “last U.S. Army ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam: 23 August, 1972. Under the entry for G / 29 FA he states that the battery departed Vietnam in September 1972 with no further explanation.
All that said, I’m still left searching for the last ground combat ( including aero-rifle platoons) unit, regardless of size, to turn out the lights in Vietnam.
Best to all,
Richard Vidaurri
Americal / later 196th LIB
1970-1972
Author of The Gates of the Shadow, the unlikely story of America’s last battle tank in Vietnam.
richvidaurri@gmail.com
I was in Bien Hoa up until August 1st 1972 attached to the Garry Owen Task Force during the rocket attack that morning. I was sitting in the radar tower and at about 5AM when the rockets started coming in. We triangulated the position from the radar towers and dropped a bunch of artillery on them. Later that day, I was taken to the air base in Siagon for processing out of country. I left VietNam on August 5th 1972. I also served at FireBase Melanie from February through mid June of 1972. I was on the last chopper out of Melanie with the colonel when we turned it over to the ARVN.
To Mike Evenson, Please email me about NCOC 71 and Task Force Garry Owens 72. Would love to talk to you.
7thcavrecon7172@gmail.com
Phil purdy
To Mike Evenson, If you could please email me at matthew.prochaska@gmail.com. The reason being that I might have a item that you lost after you came back to the US in late 1972
Matt
I have looked and looked for those who were with Task Force Garry Owen. I was with 1st Brigride HHC and stood in the stand down cermorny @ Bien Hoe in June 1972. For those that were there remember one of the honor guards that passed out and fell forward and landed on his steel pot that fell off just before. After that there weren’t many of us left. I remember selling refigritors to the Marines that were bought in to protect our rear as we left. What a joke that was as most were new in country and we all know about newbe’s. Thanks to all the Skytroopers out there and we will all fly again together some day!
I remember somebody falling down. But what I really remember about that ceremony was a loach pilot getting an award for pulling out something like 11 ARVNs or Vietnamese civilians at one time, most of them, of course, hanging on the skids. I’m not sure but he may ahve made two different trips doing the same thing. I think their compound was overrun during the Easter Offensive.
Dear fellow AG commentators:
For the last couple of days I’ve been involved in research regarding combat units in Vietnam during the last year of the American phase of the war. Several of you have given me your time and memories so that I now have a pretty clear understanding of the matter.I might add here that there is precious little published material on that last lonely American year of March 1972 through the end of March, 1973.
In the final analysis I can say that after Task Force Gary Owen departed on 22 August, 1972 there were no longer American ground combat units anywhere in Vietnam. That is not to say, however, there were no ground combat soldiers still in-country . Rifle security companies, Special Forces soldiers attached to MACV or CIA, MACV advisers, these all soldiered on until the end.
So, I was about to close out this part of my search out when I stumbled onto something intriguing: something called the Infantry Security Force (Special Guard). The only information in Stanton’s Vietnam Order of Battle is that this was a battalion-sized force under the direct control of MACV and later (later? later when? later how?) the Department of the Army, that it served in multiple locations, was composed of specially chosen soldiers, and was a TDA organization. The unit served in Vietnam from March 1965 until March 1973.
I have hunted all through my reference library, the Internet, old friends… and NADA. Can anyone give my any information on these folks?
Also as an interesting observation I’ve gotten the overwhelming impression that unless a soldier who served that last year had done a previous tour in Vietnam, he had no idea what the war was like in the earlier years – no clue whatsoever. But I cannot be certain of this until I hear from if reading about the experiences of the earlier Vietnam soldiers leaves you with the same impression of remoteness that reading your stories leaves in me.
I also want to say that like every soldier who served in Vietnam I have the greatest admiration for the air crews. But the challenges and the raw courage of the men who flew in Vietnam at the end are remarkable even among that already remarkable group.
This is for Al Hagen. Welcome home soldier.This may be late but it’s nonetheless heartfelt.I appreciate all you did in Nam to keep a skinny college sophmore in Mississippi safe and warm at home.You are not forgotten and I’m proud to stand tall with you.
My neighbor(US Army) states he helped in the evacuation of Saigon. He enlisted in 1974. You think this is true?
If he’s 54 years old or older, it could be.
What about air or support units? What US personnel were permitted per
the 1973 agreement? How were advisors or technical support organized
and how did they leave, right to the end in 1975?
Thanks
MEC
I have a few questions trying to connect the dowith my dad.. help plz
Fire away with your questions.
your right some were there till 1977, read your naval historical foundation it will tell you some were there till 1978 ,someone had to clean up the mess
Dennis, are you sure of what you are saying? You of course realize that the NVA came down and deactivated all of South Vietnam in April 1975. That action alone would lead one to believe that there were no American servicemen or civilian government employees in Vietnam after that time.
Hey! Hold up there. You are refering to artillery units as being the last combat troops to leave Viet Nam. A FACT is that C Troop 10th Aero Cavalry left Viet Nam in February 1973. I don’t know if they were the absolute last unit, and I don’t want to quible about who is combat and whom are not, but I will suggest that anyone who was medivaced out of, or extracted whole from, a hot LZ would probable not doubt that helicopter crews were in fact , combat troops
Sincerly,
Rick Reavill, UH-1H Crew Chief, 176th Assault Helicopter Co 69/70, A Conpany, 158th Assault Helicopter BN, 101st Airborne, 71
iwas one of those looking for pow [smu]
Rick, this is an entry from Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby L. Stanton:
Troop H, 10th Air Cavalry, departed Vietnam 26 February 1973, was an air cavalry troop raised from the assets of Troop C, 7th Squandron, 17th Cavarly. Troop H served with the 17th Aviation Group at An while in Vietnam.
Correction: that last line should read “…at An Son while in Vietnam.”
I was Infantry in an Artillery Unit that was there at air base while pull out in April 1975 so I assure you there were still grunts on the ground under hostile conditions.
The 1st Aviation Company, 1st Brigade, 1 Calvary, 12th Combat Aviation Group, F Troop 8th Cavalry was there until at least Feb 1973.
During the Easter Offensive 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry was attached to the 11th Combat Aviation Group from June 1972 to October 1972.
The U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group’s activities were closely coordinated with those of the ARVN units. This group provided essintial support with troop lift logistical support, gunships and medevacs.
F Troop, 8th Cav was there in Quang Tri, the day the Easter Offensive started. The movie ‘Bat 21′ portrays the the time as during the ‘Tet Offensive’ …this is totally incorrect. It took place and began March 29-30, 1972 in Quang Tri. The book is much better than the movie too….and it’s all true. Men of F Troop, 8th Cav gave their all and some – their lives – in the largest search and rescue ever.
Some of the F Troop, 8th Cav were kids and probably still don’t know to this day that they fought in the probably the biggest and bloodiest battle ever.
Because of the intensity of the war, most of the F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG files are not available. The service of many from F Troop are not documented.
bless you for your service fred , we are all brothers till the end. do you remember what smu is .
Fran, it isn’t my intention to sound argumentative. I do have to question, however, your comments that “… because of the intensity of the war F Troop, 8th Cavalry, 12th CAG files are not available…” Then “The service of many from F Troop were not documented”
I’m not sure what that means. I have had a hell of a time getting even anecdotal evidence from that last year but I believe that’s mainly because in many American minds the war was over by mid – 1972. I have indeed only been able to find ONE non-fiction book about that period: America’s Last Vietnam Battle (Dale Andrade) and that’s only the Easter Offensive.
All that said, I cannot see why intensity should equal shoddy record-keeping. That hasn’t been the case in any other American war.
The last Air Cavalry Troops left Vietnam in 1973. They are the last U S Army conventional COMBAT forces to leave Vietnam. And, technically speaking, since each Air Cavalry Troop had an Infantry platoon that could be employed to fight “on the ground’ you could argue that the last conventional U S GROUND forces left Vietnam in 1973.
I was the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group from Oct ’72 to Feb ’73 and can verify this information.
Major John P. Kennedy, served 10 November 1972 to 28 January 1973 under Lt. Colonel Stanley D. Cass, 11th CAG.
No need to verify, I have the 11th CAGs After Action Report in front of me, detailing the 11th CAGs methodical consolidation down to the 62nd Aviation Company + FPJMC and ICCS Detachments, colors to USAEUR on 16 March, and finally turning out the lights on 28 March.
I am, however, happy that you responded, Major Kennedy, as the same After Action makes note that during the “pre-stand-down phase,” November 1972, a security force was formed from the Blues, the ground component of the aerorifle platoon. As they are again mentioned at the end of the report it is apparent that they stayed until the end, 28 March 1973.
Despite what Fran proclaims I’m not without a clue nor am I trying to make a point. I also agree that any combat soldiers, assigned to any unit in Vietnam should be classified as “ground combat troops.” I’m doing research for a book, my 2nd book on Vietnam, set during the last year of the American phase, 72-73, and information is hard to come by.
Now, as long as I have you on the line, Major: Is the After Action Report correct as to those Blues? And, after forming up into a security force did they ever again go on operations, SAR, anywhere outside the wire?
Thank you for responding to my post, I greatly appreciate any information that you can provide.
Richard Vidaurri
Specialist – 5 Vidaurri
Americal Division, then 196th LIB
1970-72
Author: The Gates of the Shadow.
The massive stand down of American forces in 1972 and the subsequent reassignment of units to other headquarters resulted in some pretty shoddy records keeping. In June of 1972 I personally submitted a recommendation for the Medal of Honor for Lt. James P. McQuade. A year later I found out that it had been “lost”. There are many more examples of a lessor magnitude than this but it is indicative of what went on at that time.
F/8 went from the 196th Light Infantry Brigade to the 11th CAG to the 12th CAG in less than a year’s time.
My last assignment in Vietnam was as the OIC of the Region I Four Party Joint Military Commission Aviation Detachment stationed at Danang AFB. I left Vietnam from Bien Hoa on MArch 30, 1973.
Colonel Kennedy: Re-reading your response to my post I see that you left RVN from Bien Hoa on March 30, 1972. As that was the last day for all American soldiers to be out of Vietnam it occurs to me that it must have been a surreal experience.
Who was there to:
Out-process you?
Drive you to the airfield?
Provide security?
Did you fly out commercial or U.S. Air Force?
Where did you arrive back in the States?
It seems as if someone must have been walking right behind you turning out the lights. I am indeed impressed.
I’ve never conversed with anyone who was there the very last day so any information that you can provide will help me immensely.
richvidaurri@gmail.com
g’day Richard name is Henry Gutierrez and i would like to ask you in relation to all the army documents got burn during 72 i Nam.how the USA gov.is going to recognize all the arms service for pension and medical treatments and plus…i am still waiting for 41 years for your gov.to accept my claim.the Australian gov.tells me there found record i have serve with the allied forces so they ask me to write to the DVA in USA.do you know many services members in the same situation.please let me know if you do so i can contact them and ask them for advice .
yours sincerely
Henry Gutierrez..ex-army clp medic.
Air cavalry units with the primary mission of supporting South Vietnamese Army forces were the only active Army combat units in Vietnam throughout 1972. Both the 11th CAG and the 12th CAG, (Combat Aviation Group), were there until at least Feb. 1973.
Many of these men fought, supplied logistical lift and provided medevacs in support of the ARVN troops in the biggest battle of Vietnam, ‘The Easter Offensive’ or ‘The Spring Offensive’.
‘The Easter Offensive’ began and ended in “The Second Battle of Quang Tri’. Some of these men died there.
March 29-30 1972 at Quang Tri, was the first time that SAMs and regular AAA weapons were used. The NVA introduced the Soviet-built SA-7 (Strella) heat-seeking, shoulder-fired missile, for use against low and slow-flying Allied aircraft. It was deadly, and numerous Allied aircraft losses were attributed to the weapon.
Until USAF fire power could be transported back from Saigon, (sent there from the ‘drawdown’), 1st Calvary, Combat Aviation Groups held down the fort with help from the Marines that where still there. There were still some Navy offshore that helped too later with firepower. The Army of the Republic of Vietnam, backed by the United States Army, shelled more than 80,000 tons of ordnance, the destructive capacity equivalent to almost six Hiroshima-size atomic bombs.
When the massive firepower was first unleashed, unsuspecting NVA soldiers reporting for duty were in the city at the time and Quang Tri was referred to as ‘Hamburger City’ by some that saw the aftermath.
As well, leading out of the city was still ‘The Highway of Horrors’ from when
South Vietnam had earlier lost its Quang Tri Province on May 1st, 1972 and the NVA cut down masses of panic civilians, war refugees, who were fleeing the city and got stuck at Truong Phuoc Bridge because of the traffic jam after an enemy artillery shell heavily damaged the bridge. Chaos occurred when enemy artillery began a rain of many hundreds shells from their 130mm guns on the refugees. A moment later, Communist foot soldiers attacked the crowd with infantry weapons that included mortars and grenade launchers.
When â€The Second Battle of Quang Tri’ was over, (Sept. 16, 1972 the city was taken back. On Oct. 22, 1972 Quang Tri Province firebases were secured), not one building remained standing. The intense bombing, combined with U.S. use of the Agent Orange defoliant, turned the land into a virtual moonscape.
This all took place during â€Operation Ceasefire’ when we were standing down and turning over the bases to the ARVN.
Americans still have little knowledge of this time in Vietnam and the part that brave American troops, including U.S. Army Air Calvary Combat Aviation Groups, took in it.
Richard-
No problem. The quote you mentioned that I wrote about records-keeping is from a notarized letter of a Colonel, U.S. Army, Air – Retired. He was my husband’s commander in Vietnam.
The reason records-keeping was chaotic at best was because almost everyone was redeployed back home and out of Vietnam at that time, including HQ. A skeleton crew of junior administration was left behind and later as Communications was handed over to the ARVN, communications between the Admin left behind and HQ, (which already left) was even harder to maintain for instructions to be given. (Here I am parapharsing excerpts of Command History and After Action Reports.)
The other people left behind in Vietnam we’re busy fighting an intense war.
I am familiar of the bookand author you mentioned.
Yes, the story of US Army Aviation during this time of the war has been untold, still…. and basically unknown to Americans still. That is why I having been wanting to write such a book. If Mr. Andrade is interested in helping me write this book, he can contact me and I will talk with him.
Fran, I’m a writer but I don’t know Dale Andrade. The way to contact him is to go on Amazon, find his book, and then send him an e-mail via his publisher.
Richard-
Also in answer to your question…
After F/8 was transferred from 11th CAG to 12th CAG and they moved down to Bien Hoa… At Ceasefire, everyone was trying to roll up and get out quickly. There was a mass accumalation of paperwork. It was very difficult for the skeleton crew of junior admin to know exactly what to do with it. Because of the problems in communications after Communications was handed over to the ARVN, a lot of paperwork was taken to Tan Son Nuht and burnt.
That’s what I made out of reading Command Histories and After Action Reports. When I have more time, I will post, word for word, the exact words and sources for you.
F-R-A-N!!! Please do not go to anymore trouble to unearth quotes and sources. Now, you’ve gone and made me feel like a sap who’s been questioning a nice lady’s credibility.
Richard- thanks man. :-)
g’day fran,my name is henry.fran i need to ask you some question and i hope you will be able too help me in some way.i was in nam in 1971 to 1972.i was army medic with 1 fd hospt.in vang tau then i went to the USA army hospital voluntary to help to clean up and pack up at long binh,now i have write to the DVA in USA for years and they told me they can not found any records of my time of service,i then i write to the Australia DVA and also tells me they can not found any documents but they told me in a letter they can see i have service with the allied forces in nam.now that you guys keep mention about documents got destroy in Nam means that also my records got burn too.so Fran ,what happen with all the soldiers who serve in Nam means we can not claim anything even a pension,where is the best place to complain and get both government to recognize our time and services .would you be able too tell me what can i do.had been 41 years now fighting for this.feel free to send me an email.litltebird7160@hotmail.com .cheers mate.henry
An excerpt from the very well researched and written literature:
READJUSTNMENT PROBLEMS AMONG VIETNAM VETERANS
The etiology of Combat-Related Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders
By Jim Goodwin, Psy. D.
Published by Disabled American Veterans
Page 6-7
“For both World War II and the Korean War, the incidence of neuropsychiatry disorder among combatants increased as the intensity of the wars increase. As these wars wore down, there was a corresponding decrease in these disorders until the incidence closely resembled their particular prewar periods.”
However, the Vietnam experience proved different. As the war in Vietnam progressed in intensity, there was no corresponding increase in neuropsychiatry causalities among combatants. It was not until the early 1970’s, when the war was winding down, that neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase. With the end of direct American troop involvement in Vietnam in 1973, the number of veterans presenting neuropsychiatric disorders began to increase tremendously (President Commission on mental Health, 1978).”
Interesting, isn’t it?
Richard – eek, the quote you quoted was not the commander’s. (My mistake… being busy and texting.)
The commander did say however, “Due to the intensity of the war, records-keeping was chaotic at best.”
You were not being aurgumentive. It was a good question.
(I do know that on one my post that I wrote years ago on the Easter Offensive; not everything I wrote was perfect and I need to make some minor but important corrections.)
:-)
I am not sure the last troops came out in 72-73 I was a member of the 5th special forces group was reasigned to the (MACV SOG)/ CCN and as a member of this elit special observation group I was not out until around late 74-earily 75 can you shed some light on this please as i was very young and it was a long time ago i want to be sure i am right. thank you please reply to my e-mail address with any information
Brad I have some information for you. Please contact me.
I need some confirmation on a date as to when US troops were completely reassigned from Viet Nam
I served with my brother for six or seven months in 1972 at
Marble mt compound, DaNang. We were with the 11th CAG.
I WAS WITH HEADQUARTERS AND HE WAS WITH THE 282 THEN THE 48TH. His name was Morris. Did any other brothers serve together in vietnam at the same place and time?
Thank you General Truong for giving credit to the Americans that were there assisting the ARVN in the Battles of Quang Tri during the Easter Offensive until the very end and calling them by name. It means so much to me – especially since it has been the only reference that I have found on the Internet doing so.
Our own American military have given them no public credit whatsoever, these troops that stayed and fought and served long after the all of the ground troops went home in August 1972.
But you gave them credit where credit was due. Thank you.
May you rest in peace.
Ngo, Lieutenant General Quang Truong, The Easter offensive of 1972. Washington DC: U.S. Army Center of Military History, 1980.
“In addition to support provided the U.S. Air Force, I Corps forces also received much assistance from the U.S. Army 11th Combat Aviation Group whose activities were closely coordinated with those of ARVN units. This group provided essential support with troop lift logistical support and gunships.”
Statement byJerry Morelock, Armchair General, Senior Historian
“Some American troops (no combat troops) were still in Vietnam until they left in 1973.”
You are wrong. Aviation COMBAT Groups (CAGs) were there at least until March 24, 1973 that I know of personally.
May I suggest you read a few After Action Reports or Command Histories? Something? If you do, you will see that I am correct.
Combat Aviation Groups in Vietnam were COMBAT TROOPS in EVERY sense of the word and the few left behind were fighting HARD and NON-STOP after everybody else went home until ceasefire. It was very dangerous after ceasefire as well.
Please help honor our veterans by correctly recognizing them and their sacrifices, especially as a senior historian.
According to the After Action report of the 11th CAG:
Elements of F Troop / 4th Cavalry engaged targets along the Song Tra River (Danang) on 28 January 1973. They recorded 30 KBH (killed by helicopter) in an action that ended at 0755.
The Cease Fire was effective at 08000 that morning.
So you are correct that combat troops were in Vietnam until the end, indeed the very end, 28 March 1973. Although they were no longer actively engaged in combat after the Cease Fire they were in country supporting the Four Powers Joint Military Command, and the International Commission for Control and Supervision, and indeed received hostile fire during some of those missions.
But Morelock’s post was referring to ground combat soldiers and in that he is correct – sort of – because although the last ground combat battalion left Vietnam in August 1972 there were odds-and-ends in-country until the end, and perhaps even after that.
Richard – “Odds and Ends” ?????
That makes my blood boil.
I am looking and looking for the After Action Reports from April 1972 to October 1972. I cannot find them.
11th CAG was involved upfront in the rest of the Easter Offensive that started back up June 28th, 1972.
It was not “Odds and Ends” dammit!
I know guys who were personally there including the commander who led them into battle.
“Odds and Ends”?
That is extreme disrespect to their
service and sacrifices.
You and most of America, including
Jerry Morelock and Dale Andrade have no clue.
After Action Reports… ORLLs… anything to do with that time… I cannot find online for the time period, April 1972 to October 1972. I know where to look… but I have been so busy fighting the VA because they told my husband that they did not know that there were any combat troops in Vietnam after APRIL 1972… and called him a liar. We are almost done with dealing with the VA, I hope… and I know that a book needs to written about the US Army Aviation for the time that we are discussing… but I really want to spend time with my family after the grueling fight with the VA… but it needs to be written and done RIGHT. It was NOT “odds and ends”. It was an all out war.
Fran… relax and re-read my post, specifically the last paragraph where I mention “odds and ends.” I was clearly referring to GROUND COMBAT troops, and what I meant was this: after Task Force Gary Owen stood down on 22 August, 1972 and 3rd battalion , 21st Infantry stood down one day later (thereby making it the last ground combat battalion to leave Vietnam) there were no longer any ground combat formations in Vietnam. As far as I can tell from the after action reports of the 11th and 12 the CAGs even the Aerorifle platoons (Blues) were given base defense missions.
It’s obvious that you have some very deep personal associations with the subject that are making you touchy in the extreme. Morelock and I are Vietnam Veterans. I served 18 months with the Americal Division and later the 196th Light Infantry Brigade. I’m a 100% service-connected disabled veteran, thus it’s absurd to say that that Morelock or I would dishonor anyone else who served in Vietnam.
Richard – you just don’t get it. Base Defense Missions was a part of what was going on. These guys were part of snd participated (in many ways since almost everyone was gone), in the largest enemy offensive in the entire war. I say this in complete confidence and with proof.
Yes I know about the Tet Offensive. This really is a part of the Vietnam War that needs to be better known…. And of the men who were there and fought in it.
I was flying with F Troop, 9th Cav, 12th CAG out of Bien Hoa up until February 1973. It is true many of the ‘records’ seem to be missing. I was told that what records do exist are stashed away in the DC area in a warehouse. To make my point about records. After I returned to the world and assigned to Ft. Bragg (no comment), I was awarded a DFC in a quiet ceremony in the battalion commander’s office. There is NO record of me being awarded the DFC in the records.
John Lane,
‘Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed ‘Gopher’.
â€Hi’. My name is Jim Lawrence. I was with F Troop, 8th Cav, 12th CAG in Bien Hoa until late January and then went to FPJMC in Saigon. What was your MOS and job? Looking for a
friend who was a crewchief with TOW, nicknamed â€Gopher’.
I remember when F/8 showed up, presumably to give us a hand taking care of III Corp. I was a 67V2T (OH-58), but was a Scout in F/9 flying OH6A’s. We did not have a tow bird with us, in fact only you guy’s had a minigun mounted loach, which as I recall you lost due to a command detonated claymore in some trees. I know there was at least one tow bird owned by someone because I got called in to an area where they were operating and could not hit the target because of the trees…this was 12 November 1972, a day I will never forget. We tried not to pay much attention to F8 except when you guys would lob a 40mm CS round across the motor pool at us. Retaliation was such fun…LOL.
I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?
Same question to Jim Lawrence…??
That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them
Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
asana-
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry (sister troops) were both conducting combat operations in Military Region I until October 1972. I do know that the F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) served until October 1972 from Chu Lai to Quang Tri to Hue, Phu-Bai to the Que Son to Mo Duc and Duc Pho, establishing themselves as the premier air cav troop in Vietnam. They served as the aviation “fire brigade”, called upon time and again to conduct operations in the areas of greatest enemy threat.
The versatility of F Troop, 8th Cavalry (Blue Ghost) was demonstrated repeatedly through it’s ability to conduct short-notice unit moves with no loss of operational efficiency. Deploying from Marble Mountain to Da Nang Main in late August 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry detached two cav teams to Chu Lai on September 15, 1972 to suppress a serious enemy offensive in the Mo Duc-Duc Pho area. They stayed in Military Region I until the end of the Easter Offensive and all threat of any enemy offensive was suppressed.
On October 15, 1972, F Troop, 8th Cavalry received orders to redeploy to Bien Hoa, in Military Region III. (F Troop, 9th Cavalry worked closely with F Troop, 8th Cavalry and I am sure they moved to Bien Hoa at the same time.) Seventy-two hours later, F Troop, 8th Cavalry teams were conducting combat operations against an enemy build-up in the Saigon-Bien Hoa area. From Xuan Loc to Tan An to Lai Khe to Tay Ninh, the specter of the Blue Ghost covered Military Region III like the monsoon rain.
APPENDIX 2 (12th Combat Aviation Group) to ANNEX B to USARV/MACVV SUPCOM After Action Report
“Purpose: To report significant activities and planning involved in the stand down of the 12th Aviation Group during the period 1 November 1972 through March 1973.”
“The combined average monthly flying hours of the two air cavalry units, (F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry), flown while accomplishing their primary mission, exceeded all other air cavalry averages in Vietnam.”
“The aircraft loss rate was the lowest in Vietnam even though the combat activity in MR III had increased sharply.”
So, I don’t believe that either F Troop, 8th Cavalry nor F Troop, 9th Cavalry were involved in the September 1972 event that you have explained…. but I would not count them out. There were a few other air cavalry units in Vietnam then… some pulling out at that time.
Very few air cavalry remained until the Ceasefire and beyond, (a VERY dangerous time to be in Vietnam as well.)
F Troop, 8th Cavalry and F Troop, 9th Cavalry were two who remained until Ceasefire and some troopers stayed even longer, until March 1973.
What is so frustrating is that even books and references that have ‘authority’ have so much information wrong about units and our brave troopers who served in COMBAT after “all the combat troops came home” in 1972.
(Note: The 1st Cavalry (Airmobile), all of them, were noted to fly into any situation, no matter how dangerous and intense to provide medevacs and assistance to troopers on the ground.)
Asana –
In reply to
“I was evacuated from Bien Hoa by Air Cav — on or about Sept 27 72 on the final day of the stand down of the 175th RRFS comms center. I was among the last group at the comm center flown out that morning at dawn after demolition of remaining comms equip. I haven’t been able to find any record of what Cavalry unit was flying. The 5th Cavalry had already stood down and gone to Saigon I think. Were you there or do you know what Cav outfit flew us out?”
I have done more inquiring and have found that:
Yes, F/9 Cav was in III Corps-Third Regional Assistance Command (TRAC) at that time.
Which supports what Dave Wallace said:
“That was probably F Troop 9th Cav. They were the last Air Cav Troop in three corp. Best of my knowledge they were there through the ceasefire. I was already up country by then and lost track of them.” – Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
(thanks!)
The only Cav unit at Bien Hoa, 27 September 1972 was F/9. I showed up there my first day on 28 September 1972….F/8 showed up in October as I recall.
Asana… D Troop, 3rd Squadron, was the 5th Cavalry’s only air cavalry troop. They departed Vietnam along with the rest of 3rd Squadron on 8 November, 1971.
why did you get to ride a bird out on the last day of the 175th?m i had to ride in duece&1/2.. i remember cutting the 2×4 of the building with an axe. .
I would like you to contact me if possible. I was with Ftrp for a short time. We were hooched up with the Browns if I am not mistaken. I cant remember how we wound up getting assigned to Long Bien and what the unit designation was there. I was medivaced in mid august.
Okay guys… Anything I got wrong about F/9 – I apologize.
I know someone who will be a great help here.
Be right back.
III Corps-Third Regional Assistance Command (TRAC)
F/9 Cav 30 Jun 71-26 Feb 73 (Air Cav)
I was an Avionics Mechanic with F Troop until January 73. No doubt worked on your bird.
Tom were you with F/8 or F/9? I knew of one guy and African-American fellow named Anderson, he was avionics, we got to F/9 together in September.
John, I was with F/9. I think the Avionics Mech that arrived in Sept with you would have been Les Johnson from the southside of Chicago.
Maybe the guy I was talking about was an armament’s guy. It’s been a couple of years. His name was definitely Anderson, we called him Andy. You know us Scouts were a snobby bunch and did not associate a lot with other’s in the unit, except maybe Blue Lift at times. LOL
I’m a student in High school studying Vietnam, and I think everybody is partly right. Yes, there were SOG/MACV units in Vietnam well after August 1972, and also several air units, and infantry units. But, correct me if I’m wrong, the last MAJOR and WELL KNOWN pullout of troops was in August, 1972, I believe.
Task Force Garry Owen stood down on June 26, 1972. However, that was the “official” date. I know. I was in that ceremony.
There were some additional infantry combat patrols that went on after that but none that I am aware of follwoing the closure of FSB Spudis, which was just outside of Bien Hoa. That closure was about mid-to late July 1972.
We did a police call of the firebase while the Vietnamese congregated outside the berm. We our last vehicle pulled out, the Vietnamese came in and dumped all of the 55 gallon drums and started foraging.
I have no knowlege of any active, offensive infantry GROUND combat missions following that, although there may have been some. I am aware of defensive security operations around the major bases and both fixed and rotary wing missions.
I was with Bravo 1st 12th and then Bravo 1st 7th. I was in the Blues after that. Bunker Hill and Grunt II were the two firebases I spent most of my time at. We spent some time at Long Than north (I am not sure if that is the right spelling) Thing changes so often for the short period of time I was there. I was medivaced with mixed malaria August 15 of 72. I had been sent to the reaction force at Long Bien. I have seen several posts regarding Spudis but for the life of me cant place it. I was on the security force when we closed down a small firebase i thought was named Mars but not sure if that was the right name. It was pretty small. It seems like for the last month or two i was there no one really knew what was going on.
Larry Overstocker: You asked about Firebase Spudis. Before that it was Firebase Fiddler’s Green and occupied by the 11th ACR. I have pictures of the 11trh ACR moving out and also a picture of the sign at the base that had Spudis’ history on it.
If it means something to you, send me your email address and I will forward the pciture to you.
I am not sure I know or remember anything about Spudis. I did operate out of Bunker Hill and Grunt II. I pulled security while a small firebase was torn down. I thought the name was Mars but maybe I didnt have the name right. When the 7th stood down I was transferred to Ftrp 9th at Fort Courage Bien Hoa. I was at Bien Hoa 1 aug 72 when the airbase got rocketed. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I could see them coming up from the ville. I had four months in country and was the senior man on that section of the berm. I was medivaced mid august with mixed malaria. Email is unclelar52@yahoo.com
When the rocket attack happened my hooch was located close to HHC headquarters close to the air base. All the action was on the other side of the base. We were on allert, but nothing came close to us. Lucky. my last day at Bein Hoa was Aug 22, 1972. was sent to Tan Son Nha to catch my ride to the real world 5 days later. As best as I can remember not even a thank you when I got home. bother by that even today!!
Al Hagen: Welcome home. I think the way returning veterans from “our” war were treated has been the reason things are so changed for the good now. People remember that and surely some carry a guilt over it.
Thanks Bob!!
I have read a lot of the discussion about the last man out. Although it’s important to know whne we were really out, all that matters is that all of us that came home never let those in charge forget those that didn’t go home to loved ones. I wasn’t until about 10 years ago that I stood up and was counted and I am not setting down untill all are accounted for. And that from all wars!!. nuf said, welcome home to all!!
I flew Air Cav (H Troop 10th Cavalry) all the way through 1972 until five minutes before the cease fire which I believe was Jan 27 1973. we were flying out of Phan Thiet at the time TDY from Lane AHP.
We lost SGT Robert Lee Frankes the next to last day of the war to enemy ground fire.
Dave Wallace Call sign White Zero
All of us need to back off and give credit to the people who remained in country while everyone else went home. The troops that stayed behind were in as much danger as anyone else we all did our duty and were proud of our service no matter where we served.
The last combat troops of the United States were pulled out of South Vietnam on 29 March 1973. 8,500 American civilians, embassy guards, and defense office soldiers remained in Saigon. The largest helicopter evacuation in history occured on 29 April 1975 when 7,000 Americans and South Vietnamese were evacuated from the US Embassy in Saigon. Saigon fell the following day to the North Vietnamese troops.
Absolutely right!
Thanks for that. My father was part of the 1975 evac, although I was told it was April 30th by the time he was actually out of Vietnam. I’ve never been able to get any answers about what he was doing at the time. All I know is he was in 3rd group and was supposed to come home but he pulled some strings to get assigned TDY so he could stay there. I’ve tried on and off for years to learn about those last few years but so much has been redacted.
3rd Group would be odd as that was a 5th Group war.
I know I am a late-comer to this thread but since I came across it by accident, I wanted to add a bit of info. I was assigned TDY to RTAF Takh Li in Thailand with the various iterations of aircraft. Even though US Air Units were activated and deactivated/moved in theater and out of theater, there were always support units flying missions out of Thailand. My aircraft was F-111′s. Even though the peace accords were signed, we still flew unacknowledged flights into the DMZ for purposes of recovery/demolition of classified aircraft electronic equipment. The last time, in August of 1974, the chopper I was in took a direct hit while we were preparing to land. Casualties were heavy but the guys from 11th Combat Aviation Group were the ones who got us survivors out. Helluva great pilot and braver guys I can say I never knew. I owed my 20 year old rear end to them. I’m sorry that it took all these years for me to recognize them for what they did. The government wouldn’t acknowledge the flights. To all who served in the army, and saved us Air Force guys…thanks and God Bless.
Mike Welch
The 11th CAG went home in 1972.
Thanks for the reply Jack…My memory has gotten fuzzy with age..I may be mistaken about the CAG but they were defintely Army and if I remember right, the patch was an eagle with either lightning bolts or arrows(blue?)….anyway wanted an opportunity to say thanks after all these years. God Bless.
Mike
i was with eco. 14th inf.,long binh ammo dump from june to nov. 1972.does anyone rember aug.13 72 when 11 vc sappers hit the ammo dump. i was the one that sat out there all day while the bunkers were cooking off as an f/o. stood down nov. 72, wound up in pleiku with h trp.17yh air cav.. was with inf. plt. for a short while. then sent across the airstrip to the nung compound where i finished the rest of my tour. stood down march of 73
I was at Long Bien when the ammo dump went up. I thought it was August 7th though. I was at Bien Hoa on August 1 when they hit the air base. The first rocket hit right in front of my bunker on the green line. I was medivaced to 3rd fld hosp Saigon I thought the 13th or14th and was medivaced stateside with mixed malaria. I served with 1st 12th, 1st 7th (Task Force Gary Owen) Ftrp 9th and dont remember what the last unit at Long Bien was just it was hhc of a combat aviation unit as reaction force.
I was there – I was the one that called in the artillery on the cong that day.
Hi
Do you remember when the ammo dump blew on Fire Base Fiddlers Green later call Fire Base Spudus? The base was just out side the green line of Bein Hoa. I think it was the spring of 72 or early summer?
I’d really would like to know the dates if someone can remember.
can’t r. s.
fred
I have some dates for October through January of rocket attacks and mortar attacks at Bien Hoa.
October 26, 1972 – The military command in Saigon reports that Communist forces have initiated the largest number of assaults throughout the country of any 24-hour period since the 1968 Tet Offensive.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Two, Page 35
Bien Hoa was attacked by indirect fire 17th &19th December 1972
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Page 127
On 16 December ARVN forces began an eight battalion operation in the Bien Hoa rocket belt, following rocket attacks on Bien Hoa Air Base. Five 122mm rockets were captured, and several minor contacts made near launch positions.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut.
1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Three, Pages 107
The enemy used harassing rocket attacks on air installations during the period from October through January, striking DaNang, Tan Son Nhut, and Bien Hoa on several occasions….
I have a friend who was there then… I can ask him if one of those attacks were by the ammo dump when he was there… I seem to remember him saying so.
Look up the 1972-1973 Command History if you need more information about Bien Hoa in the Spring or Summer of 1972. I may be able to help you if you need the help… just ask.
Also… what was your troop/unit?
Look up their USARV/MACV SUPCOM After Action Reports. That will help you know where they were stationed and when. Their After Action Reports may also include additional reports of rocket and mortar attacks that the unit encountered.
Hope this helps.
Assigned to Task Forse Garry Owens Co E 1/7th. Left the green line Aug 13th and few home on the 15th. The last FSB for us was Grunt 2 a few clicks out of Bien Hoa. Our ammo dump went up to in late July or early Aug. Was on morning tower there when on Aug 1st the 122′s went over us and into the Airbase were the Marines were musted for payday in a hanger. Worked out of FSB Elderidge, Cross Sabers, Mase, Morter Hill, Bear Cat and Spudis when we took it over from the 11th ACR. T54′s with a click.
Went back in 06 and walked the old green line for the last time
Garry Owens MF’ers. Glad you we with us.
Phil Purdy
Evergreen Colorado
My memory is very shady of some things because they were changing so quick. Aug 1 1972 the first rocket of the attack on Bien Hoa airbase hit just in front of me on the green line between the ville and the base. Could actually see them coming from the ville. Had come to Bien Hoa from Grunt II. Had just helped close up Mars. Went to Ftrp 9th Cav Sabre Blues then to Long Bien. Left mid august and was hospitalized till early November with mixed malaria.My friends took care of me for a couple days until I could get medical attention. They took me to see a Frankenstein movie. Never forget thier care but names escape me. Bless them
Hello Fred. I can check on that at my reunion next month because several of my buddies were on that base when the dump blew. My thought is that it wans’t Spudis but a different one. I was on patrol in the field at the time. A firefighter was killed when it went up.
We ran into a bunker and got a KIA. When I sent back for a catering charge what I got was 10 sticks of C-4, which was sufficient to do the job.
My friend, Phil Purdy, Co E, 1/7 just posted above here and perhaps he is correct about which firebase it was.
As I said, i will check and get back to you.
@Fran….1972-1973 COMMAND HISTORY, Part Four, Pages 130-131
The Bien Hoa Air Base received 28 122mm rockets on 26 January, and Tan Son Nhut Air Base received 33 122mm rockets on 28 January. one American was killed at Bien Hoa, one civilian was killed and 20 injured at Tan Son Nhut..
I remember this particular rocket attack well. Got my ass blown off a conex by a delayed 122 which landed short of the flight line. Most of the rockets were walked up the runways on the Air Force side, the BIG voice blaring…like we did not know the rockets were already falling.
Phillip Purdy – I think I went to the NCO academy with you in the summer of 71 at Benning.
no, larry,it was aug.13th. i have commo reports from long binh h/q..i have been trying to find my unit records for over twenty years. just before the last of us pulled out in nov.,the 1st sgt. got myself and about for or five others out in front of the orderly room with a stack of papers in his hand. he said that we were put in for these awards and he didn,think we deserved them.he through them in the burn barrel. been trying to find the x/o lt. stenrum ,or anhbody i was with,or photos of that day when the sappers hit. it was 11sappers.
To Phil Purdy I was with you on Firebase Grunt 11. I was with E.CO I came from Firebase Spudis and the Recon Team to man a Radar Tower that was under your control. I was the kid from Montana (Jimbo). Neil Kennedy also came with me and you two guys ended punching it out on the by one of the guard towers. As I recall you won. I was also in the tower when the rockets went over us and hit Bien Hoa. After we stood down in Aug. I went to H Troop 7/17 and pulled bunker line guard and flew with the Blue Teams until it was over in 73. I would love to talk to you sometime. Jim abeatupcowboy@live.com
Dude – I was in one of the other towers that morning the rockets flew. WOW.
Jim, I do remember you and Kennedy. I sent you a email asking you to call or send me your number. There are a few of us from Echo Company that meet up for reunions, emails and talk. Please join us. Welcome Home Brother! Sgt Purdy
Jim, I do remember you and Kennedy. I sent you a email asking you to call or send me your number. There are a few of us from Echo Company that meet up for reunions, emails and talk. Please join us.
Micheal, After the rockets flew over us into Bien Hoa, remember how everybody on Grunt 11 was waiting for them to hit us next. Hope your Arty call got those Cong. Thanks
Phil, Thanks for the e-mail, can’t wait to talk to you, Jim
To Don Gibson, I do remember you very well on Firebase Grunt11 mostly from your great sense of humor. I did get your welcoming e-mail but i have replied twice to you and the post master keeps sending it back with not a valid address. Would love to talk to you , please send me another e-mail. thanks Jim Ohs
Fran
Thanks for the info it is a start. btw I was in the 3rd Brigade (Separate) 1st Cavalry Divison (Airmobile) Delta Company 1st Battalion (Airmobile) 7th Cavalry from December 1971 – June 1972
I was a 60 gunner- Had 2 missions on/with the Point Team also part time mailman I flew back to Bien Hoa to get the company mail at times. Also a 3rd Field Hospital Siagon patient for a few months and finishing my Army carreer with a 10 month hospital stay at Fitzsimmons Army hospital Denver Colorado.
Fred, you were with D 1.7? Who was the Company Commander at that time? I was with them (attached) and A Company as well.
Hey SGM Bob
The Company Comannder was Captain James Whittaker, the Command Srgt Major (E10) was Westmoreland youngest man with that rank in the army (39 yrs old) at that time. BTW I took a camera on a couple missions and have a pretty good photo album. I and willing to share the pic’s with those interested. Also I made about 6 to 8 copies of same pic’s for guys in my platoon in 1972. So if you have some of those pictures you know me.
Fred, I have to reply to my own post as this site doesn’t permit me to reply to you. I can’t recall the name of the A Co Commander right now but he was a good looking blond guy. I can’t say that I remember Whittaker. The Ban Co was LTC Hodges. I don’t know the CSM but you must have made a typo because there are no E-10s. He was 39 at the time, eh? I made SGM at 36.
The D Co Commander was Tony Witter. I have his email address. The C Co Commander lives in Colorado and ran for US Congress the alst rlection cycle but didn’t win.
If anyone has some dates or names please contact me. When 1st of the 12th left and we were combined into 1st of the 7th (Task Force Garry Owen) things started to get very confusing. I remember on log day in the bush one trooper got a newspaper clipping from his mom that said there were no more combat troops in the field. The nearby artillery strike must have been a figment of our imagination. Places I was are Bunker Hill, Grunt II, Mars, Bien Hoa, Long Bien.
My parents saw me on the evening news getting on a UH-1 going to the field from Crossed Sabers AFTER it was reported there were no more combat troops going out on offensive missions.
We called the 11th CAG patch the “Chicken on a stick Patch”
H Troop 10th Air Cav and H Troop 17th Air Cav were there through the Cease fire in late Jan 73. I lost a good man Sgt Robert Lee Frakes the next to last day of the war.
Also was at Long Than* Not sure of the spelling on that. I had some black hats made up for the Task Force Garry Owen guys
I’m trying to debunk someone I highly suspect is a “veteran poser”. Can anyone give me dates that would be the LATEST that any NEW regular troops would have ARRIVED in Vietnam?
I’m in a hurry right now… but I DO KNOW someone who arrived in Vietnam in September 1972. US ARMY (Air) Regular Army. A lot was going on in Vietnam then. THIS IS VERIFIED.
What is this person telling you?
There is a lot that so many of us do not know about this war, unless we were there.
Fran, I arrived in country on 28 September 1972, through Camp Alpha, Long Binh and Plantation, eventually ending up at Bien Hoa, finally settled with Fox9.
I have known of several fake NamVets including one who claimed to have gone on a “reforgery” to Vietnam. Obviously had no idea what Reforger is. And another who was actually the president of the area PowMia group.
I was stationed at Bien Hoa AB from 20 May 1972 until 30 January 1973 when I left. The parent unti was MAG-12 from Iwakuni, Japan commanded by Colonel Macho. No shit.
There was an explosion in or around an ammo or bomb dump a few days on either side of 10 September 1972, if memory serves.
The biggest rocket attacks I recall were in August 1972.I totally forgot the one on 26 or 28 January unless that post referred to 1972.
I seem to recall a brand new Marine being assigned to our unit on or about September 1972. I think that he was 18 years old, which would make him one of the youngest Vietnam Veterans I can think of.
There were two rocket attacks, the second one, I believe in January was by far the largest. Our flight line at F/9 was hit by 4, plus the short round that damned near got me. The rest were ‘walked’ up and down the runways on the Air Force sides, a couple hit the revetments as I remember. We had a clear view of the attack from across the base. The BIG VOICE blaring !!! The one in December as I recall was not as large. We had captured a little VN girl coming through the ‘wire’ and the decision was to let her go, she came back around 0430, the rockets started to fall a few minutes later.
larry, reforgers are nato war games held in germany once a year. my first one was with b co. 4/63rd armor.same year back from nam. reuped feb. 74. wound up with h co. 2/2nd acr for second and third reforger. my fourth, fifth and sixth reforgers were with hht 4/69th out of mainz germany. forgot,2/2nd was out of bamberg. left germany four days after comming off my last reforger in 78. got out of the army in feb. 80. deita,1/3rd cav, ft bliss, texas.
Yes David I know what they are but the fake NamVet didnt. He claimed to have been on one to RVN. I was medivaced with mixed malaria in mid August of 72 and left hospital at Great Lakes Naval Hospital in early November. My state side unit was 1st Inf. at Fort Riley. They were preparing for REFORGER. So I did get to tour the lovely German countryside from an open jeep. While I was there I ran into several of the people I served with from 1st Cav. It was actually very interesting as I got to see a lot of the country and the various cultures it held.
i,ve met a few of those nam wanna be,s myself. i haven,t seen or heard from anybody i was in nam. with. i,ve been searching for years.
What a wonderful world we live in we all know that the only thing that we can count on when it comes to our government is either an out and out lie or a greatly stretched truth.
I to was stationed at Danang Air base 1972-1973. I was with the Royal Coachman. We had many flights that were single bird flights. I flew many flights as a door gunner. I was shot at a couple of times walking to or from my hooch going out to walk, pick up cigarettes go to the NCO club. I was also shot at more then once as a gunner. Now I was not a ground fighter so if the enemy would have had better aim my death would not have been acceptable because I was not a ground fighter? I know of at least one bird the went down with 5 on board the 4 man crew and a macv Officer. They were not ground ponders and were KIA’s Do they count? they were shot down well into 1973. Oh well who cares? The families and me. We were being shot at Well into 1973……The US knows and does nothing about it.so it must be OK..
i remember when kontum got over run. we watched the fireworks that night from camp holloway.we were wanting to go up there to help them,but they wouldn,t let us. if i remember right, it was during the CEASE FIRE….
I was at 1st Cav training center when a planeload of very surprised tow missile crews arrived in their jeeps. Still had stateside fatiques on. They were going north to hit the armor being used in the easter offensive.
I stumbled onto this site and am glad that I did. I was a NCOC “speedy 5″ that got to Vietnam June 1972. I enjoyed reading the emails from people that were in the same places at the same time as me. I went in country at Saigon/Camp Alpha then to A Co 1/7th. at Bien Hoa, got transferred to C co1/7 company after the stand down ceremony at Bien Hoa where I was awarded my CIB. I remember hearing about the ammo dump. I was on the Green Line when the Marine pilots got hit during a mortar attack. (I have a few slides of that attack that I shot the next morning while smoke was still billowing. I was in and out of Grunt II and Bunker Hill FSB’s and conducted missions and patrols out of them. I got sent to E Co 14th. Inf. then C co 87th Inf. at Long Binh. Transferred to 277th. S & S Bn at Camp Horn Danang It was indeed a very busy time. I have in my posession to this day copies of orders from Ft. Leonard Wood all the way through my discharge in Jan. 73 at Ft. Carson. What a hell of a ride for a 20 year old kid from the Ozarks of southern Missouri. Thanks to all of you for your emails and most of all thanks for your service. Welcome Home!
Roger:
We just finished our reunion of E Co 1/7 in Orlando last month.
Give me the names of some of the guys in 1972 to “vet” (no offense, just performing due diligence) you and I’ll pass on the information if you want.
The next reunion is in two years in Green Bay.
My mistake. I thought you said E Co. I was also with A Co and D Co during that time. Who were the Company Commanders of A Co and C Co then?
Robert T. Schovilie was the Captain of C Co. 1/7 on 13 Aug. 72 on my Installation Clearance Record.
My Plt. Leader was a guy named Cook from Alabama or Louisianna. I also remember the 1st.Sgt’s driver was a Stephen Kelley. A guy named McSwain comes to mind also
I was in A Co for 1 month then went to C Co for a stint.
I have names of 33 1/7 troopers that were awarded the C.I.B. at the same time as me.
Somewhere in my collection of stuff I have 3 of the 1st Cav magazines from 1972 as well as a Stars & Stripes article about the 87th. Inf. Div.pulling the last infantry mission in Vietnam. I was on that one is why I kept the article. I imagine that a lot of units can claim that same task.
Thanks for the replies that you sent. Roger
A very small world. I was looking up facts about the 1/7 Cav in 1972 Vietnam and came across this site. I too was at FB Grunt 2 and also FB Crossed Sabers. I was in E Co, mortars. as a squad leader. I vividly remember the ammo dump explosion and the rocket attack on Bien Hoa airbase. I do believe the battalion commander was Col. Hodges. I also provided security for the base doctors when going on Medcaps to the local villages to provide medical treatment for the sick and malnourished. Also attended NCO school, Ft. Benning graduating May ’71. I also was part the Standdown ceremony when the colors were encased. Thanks for the forgotten memories.
Bob,
are you aware that there is a site called The NCOC Locator that you can go on and read stuff about us and the names of lots of our classmates as well as some of their email addresses. It is a very well done site. It has a few links to other sites as well as the Infantry Museum at Benning.
The History Channel and Military Channel are planning to do a documentary about the NCOC academy in the next couple of years. They are asking for any graduates of the school to volunteer to be interviewed for the project. Thanks for your service, Roger
Bob, we’re you at the reunion in Orlando in February?
No I did not attend. I just found this site yesterday. Being able to attend reunions is problematic for me as I am now retired and living in the Philippines. Funny though. I found the people and country here to have many similarities as Vietnam.
Garry Owen to all my buddies!
Next one is Green Bay in 2014.
Just to be clear, I’m talking about E Co, 1/7 reunion. Pat Jones, Larry Berber and others.
“SGM Bob Zornes says:
4/17/2012 at 1:33 pm
3rd Group would be odd as that was a 5th Group war.”
I don’t know much about him, just a handful of details. I know he was in 3rd group but no clue what other units since obviously that wouldn’t be the only one he was ever with. When I was with the father of my kids, I met Lt. Col. Dennington (around 1995-1996, a chaplain at that point), once at some fancy dinner/ball thing, once for the 10k Army birthday run on Ft. Bragg, and the last time at the commissary. I know he served in Vietnam with my father, got a couple ‘hero stories’, one was where my father got a silver star for hand-to-hand combat, something about crossing a river with his squad and VC came out of nowhere while most of them were still in the water.
Where I get more fuzzy is the timeline. I’m pretty sure he started off in Ft. Benning, then went to Ft. Sam Houston for awhile, then to Ft. Bragg for awhile, then two years in Vietnam from 1966-1969 with some time off in the middle of that and that’s when I know he was in 3rd group because that’s the only thing I still have from him besides a picture (paperwork about his silver star), then he was moved around a lot between Ft. Bragg, someplace in Germany, and some shorter trips to Vietnam and I’m pretty sure he was just doing medical stuff for those last few years.
After all that mess, he came home, I was born in 1976, he completely disappeared in 1977.
I retired from Special Forces and am involved with different SF groups. If you’d like to send me what you have (i.e. name, etc.) I can post it up for you and see if anything hatches anywhere.
There are other ways to get information “through channels”, too.
My email address is bob@falcorp.com.
We can communicate that way if you wish to proceed.
Read the April 2012 VFW Magizine. It has a 4 page write up on Vietnam 1972. Very little about the grunts but Task Force Garry Owen in mentioned. Has the last infantryman KIA. Worth the read.
whats with all the b btry, ed bn and the other . just wondering.
Huh?
LOL—Classic CSM/SGM comment–no doubt accompanied by a SGM glare. God Bless the NCO corp–the back bone of the US Army!
Garry Owens SGM
Dave Wallace
LTC (ret)
D-229 AHB TF Garry Owens First Cavalry Division Apr 72-July 72
H Troop 10 Air Cavalry 17th AVn BDE July 72-Feb 73
LTC Wallace:
We might well have crossed paths if you flew the An Loc missions because I see you were with the 229th April through July. I was with the “Blues” for part of that. I mostly flew in circles watching the Pink Teams work out and waiting for somebody to go down as we had recovery duty to get the pilots out and destroy the aircraft.
I still recall one aircraft that I’ve tried to find the pilot(s) of as I flew in it several times. Does the number 106 mean anything to you?
Also, small world … I live only a few miles from Bruce Crandall.
Garry Owen, Sir.
SGM Zornes,
Blue Max did a helluva job during the Easter offensive bearing the blunt of the fight around An Loc. I had the honor of flying with CPT Bill Causey of Blue Max later in 72 up in II Corp. A lot of the Cav pilots from D/229th were transferred to H Troop 10th Cavalry at Lane AHP near An Son late July 72.
I flew snakes and was shot down 23 Jun 72 near Quon Loi. Took a hit at 3500 feet from a large antiaircraft weapon and pretty much went straight down. I was in the front seat with CPT Paul Lent as my back seater. We caught a lucky break and a B 229th slick pulled us out after about 10 minutes on the ground.
I was and still am very proud of the PUC that TF Garry Owens won at An Loc.
Thanks for your service SGM. Life has been pretty good for this old soldier–sounds like it has been for you as well.
Garry Owen,
Dave Wallace
I’m glad you got out. The first two things they told me about those birds was: 1) never stand in front of the rocket tubes while trying to rescue the pilots and 2) don’t try cutting through the canopy by striking anywhere other than right on the edge of the plexiglass.
I can personally attest to how close that air support was when one of the rockets kicked up a rock and it hit me in the wrist.
Did you know the pilot that went down near An Loc and was interred at the Tomb of the Unknowns? He went down during the Easter offensive. I found out later that his DNA matched a family out here in Hoquiam, Washington.
All in all, life has been pretty good here, too. My wife is about to retire and the last of four grandchildren we raised will graduate in June.
Thank you for your service, Colonel.
By the by …
Are you hooked up with the Yahoo! group 229th? If not, I can send you the link but I don’t want to post it here so send your email address to me at bob@falcorp.com.
Just replied to you via your email SGM Thanks!
Mr. Overocker,
What unit were you assigned to in RVN?
To Dave Wallace. My first unit in RVN was 1st of the 12th. I joined up with them from the training center and went out to Bunker Hill. I got a nasty sunburn stringing concertina. We went on three day R&R to Vung Tau right after joining them. When they left I went to 1st of the 7th and we were mostly at Grunt II. When the 7th stood down went to Ftrp 9th. From there went to Long Bien. I came down with malaria while in the reaction force ready room. This all happened from April to August of 72. I was Popeyes RTO at Bunker Hill when he shot himself in the foot during John Wayne “Cowboys” movie. Was at Long Than* with 7th.
After reading these posts I am more bouyed by the fact WE knew we were there and what we were doing while the government denied we were there at all. Viet Nam almost cost me my life and there is no mention of any of it on my DD214.
No mention of ????
Larry,
I’m getting old–just read the post again and saw that you were with F/9th Cav as well as others.
Just found this site. Pretty cool. I was a machine gunner Bravo Co. 1st/7th firebase Crossed Sabers, Spudis and Grunt II. Was on Grunt when ammo dump blew – was setting claymores with Sgt. Goolsby (sp?). Was also there for the rocket attack at Bin Hoa in Aug. 72 – left soon after – was among some of the last of the combat ground troops to leave. I remember the guy getting newspaper clip from parents about no more ground troops being in Vietnam. Made us wonder, if that was true – what were we doing there?
FYI – Your former Commander ran for Congress and lives in Colorado. Unfortunately, he wasn’t elected.
I recall sharing an article from my hometown about the combat troops no longer being in the field but that was with either Co A or Co D guys.
To RMontoya. I was a 60 gunner with 1st of the 7th also. When you mentioned the guy getting the newspaper clipping was it on log day in the bush? We had a guy pull it out of the envelope and that was the headline of the clipping and she had wrote on it “Does this mean you?” Or words to that effect.
What about the classified recovery team I was on from the 101st Airbourn Division that came in early 1974 to try to find and get POWs and body remains, which I still have nightmares about. There is no record or info I can find on this Special Operation. Aside from that, They have conviently lost my records and pick up from when I was sent to Germany. Its like my first 2 or more years don’t exist. I have tried for 7 years or more now to get something but they tell me to forget it if they don’t have a record of it. I am now beeing treated for MS,High BP, Type 2 diabetes, severe depression, Anxiety, Panic Attacks, sleep apnea and breathing, now using a CPAP, Pain, increased sensitivity to heat and sun light, blurring of my vision, double vision, fatigue, PTSD and others. I am 100% disabled, house bound and require aid and attendance provided by my wife. The Doctors say most all this came from exposure to Agent Orange but since they have no records, I am not service connected so my wife and I suffer and try to make it as best as we can. I have a back injury where I crashed and burned on a jump but there again there is no record. My current MRI and X-Ray show the injury. Do any of you remember this mission or anything about it. There was a MP group when we got to Saigon but my memory is so messed up I can’t remember who they were. My code name for the mission was “Bear”.
Well, don’t you have any orders with other people’s names on it from the unit you were in the 101st with? Who was the unit Commander? Where did you deploy from? Where did the recovery team go in-country?
The VA will accept testimonials from people that were there and can confirm your presence in-country.
There shouldn’t be any reason a mission like this would be classified at this point.
Sgt. White, my husband’s DD2-14 did not show how long he really stayed in Vietnam and where and who with later after Ceasefire. There was the Four Party Joint Military Commission and the ICCS which formed after Ceasefire and lasted until March 29th 1973. Their purpose was to help exchange POWs and recover remains interred in Communist territory. Record-keeping was poor at that time because of lack of Administration and how the US was trying to get out quickly. I found one page in the 1972-1973 Command Histories regarding these missions. I suggest going on-line and seeing if there is any reference to these missions in 1974. (I do not know IF there is a Command History for after 1973.) ALSO! I was able to have it confirmed that my husband was in Vietnam after Ceasefire and after his DD2-14 stated by going over his DA-20… It shows he was not stateside for three months after he was suppose to be and that he left Vietnam March 25, 1973. I texting this and reciting from memory… hope it might help some.
Also, I learned so much about this time and these missions from… my sister-in-law, brither-in-law and mother-in-law. I had them write notarized written testimonies of the things that my husband told them when he just came back from Vietnam. He can’t remember much either, but it really impact him. Because of their testimonies, the Command Histories speaking of these missions and times, and my husband’s DA-20 confirming that my husband was ‘missing’ for three months at that time… the VA now acknowledges that he was there then.
looking for info. on 12 April 72 Sgt. Marvin Lynn Biscamp was K.I.A. Another man was wounded at the same time.Sorry to say i cant quite remember his name,been a long time can anyone help me out.
I sent an email to Biscamp’s former Commander that did the eulogy. I’ll let you know if he replies.
Fred, here is his name: DALE BURTON MOILANEN. He was killed February 1, 1972, 6 weeks after he arrived in-country.
to fran they can never find your dd-214 till they want to , they are 800,000 claims behind as we talking, two yrs they say to me hold on we are working on it
To R Montoya
Was Sgt Biscamp with the Delta company 1/7th? I remember taking over a NVA bunker complex about April. I was moving out with the point team when another GI past me on the way to guard duty. It was down a hill toward a water hole. On his way there a NVA regular shot the GI in the face. I remember see the body bag next to Captain (James) Witter while he was on the horn calling for a helicopter. I have a few more memories about what happened if this is the right GI.
Fred: OMG, I just got chills all over. The guy that originally headed out that way was me. I was the engineer that rappelled in to blow those bunkers. I needed to dig a cat hole and make a deposit but I decided to go into one of the bunkers and do it there.
While I was there, a fairly new Shake and Bake sergeant straight out of NCOC took out a relief for the OP and took four in the head and hest. For some time that thought was that it was me that was shot as I was the last one anybody remembered going out that way.
If you recall, the bird that brought me in flew around quite sometime as the dinks were popping smoke in the area and the pilots swere trying to confirm who was who. I burned my gloves coming down. When I got down, there were two guys in D Co from Washington. One was Ed Nelson from a town called Walla Walla and nobody belived that he came from a town by that name. I went to a small, private college there and eventually went to Ed;s wedding about 1973.
The other guy was from Bremerton, where I grew up and still live near today. I’ve never been able to recall his name.
The commander wasn’t James Witter, it was Tony Witter. James took over a little later.
Sheesh! I thought maybe we had crossed paths somewhere and now you just recalled this KIA. I think it was about February 1972 and it was D Co. Biscomb was either B or C.
I also wound up walking point for several missions for D Co as I had more time out there than many of the infantry guys.
SGM, We had taken a bunker complex and while we were waiting in a clearing for the engineers to arrive one of our guys had a nervous breakdown. I was wondering if it may have been the same mission. We also had two K.I.A. and two W.I.A. from a friendly fire in our other platoon.
Fred, here is the name of the sergeant that was killed that day:
DALE BURTON MOILANEN.
He was killed February 1, 1972, 6 weeks after he arrived in-country after completing NCOC.
SGM Zornes
WOW! I got your response last nite but i couldn’t reply. I spent the nite staring at the ceiling, lots of memories of that terrible day. Yes you recall it well, I saw you repeling, heard the birds flying just over tree tops all around us. While this was happening to you, my life was unfolding. “Slim” my squad leader told me to go on guard duty at the blues. I told him I couldn’t because the point team was about to move out. I said to him to get someone else… how about a newbee that need the practice. Slim did and secounds later I heard the fire. I still to this day wonder if I would have had a better chance than the newbee. I was and still am hypervidgilent and at the time never went anywhere without my weapon on full rock and roll. I remember hearing that the killed GI had his weapon on safety. Did he think he was walking in the park… We were in the middle of a enemy Bunker Complex for god sakes. a memory burned deep
Funny what one recalls but I think I remember that there were actually 17 bunkers that day. We blew them with 40 lb cratering charges.
Molinen was actually killed after I was on the ground and unless ‘Im wrong, it was the day after I came in, sometime around the morning I think, rather than that same day because I believe I rappelled in late in the afternoon and we called for the charges the next day.
You remember seeing the body next to Tony Witter. I have burned into my memory watching him pulled out of the jungle up to the bird in a litter. I can’t remember if we took his water and ammunition, ghoulish as it sounds.
Larry: I don’t recall the incident you’re speaking of. I have no recollection of being around when anybody had a nervous breakdown.
I do remember once a Latino guy named Sanchez always wanted to carry the 60. He got his wish one mission. We passed through a muddy swamp (I wouldn’t call it a rice paddy because there wasn’t any rice growing it it, at least at the time.).
It was ass-kicking grueling with mud up to the lower part of our hips. We finally got into a grove and the commander called it quits for the day so we set up the NDP. Sanchez cramped up so bad and was screaming that we had to evacuate him. The funny part of this story is after we got into that grove, everybody checked for leeches and the guy that had been walking in front of me had one right on his penis (well, not funny for him).
Anyway, I only recall one time being in friendly fire when the tail shot up the point because the point somehow sort of doubled back around. Nobody got hit, though.
Does anybody here remember a Staff Sergeant we called “Irish”? I think he dd a couple of tours. I seem to recall that he had been busted at one point. He had a “famous” blond handlebar moustache.
We ran into a bunker complex once and Irish passed the word the point was going to recon by fire. There was some fire, then we waited. Irish came back and said they’re going to recon by grenade. We heard a couple of explosions and waited. And waited. And waited. Finally Irish came back, obviously perturbed, and said “They must be reconning by bayonet now”. Funny, at least to me, at the time.
Nobody got killed on that mission, unlike the one we talked about above, I have no recollection of how any bunkers I blew.
SGM Zornes
Your right in the timing of events, writing these shorts i seem to jump over some things.
Oh Yes I remember “Irish” a drinking man after my own heart. I seem to remember that Irish went over a firebase berm with knife in mouth to personally waste a wounded zapper. At least that was the rumor about the wildman. Do you remember a Lt. Williams. No reason you should. He held down the company rear and wanted a field asignment so bad. He got one after while and really showed his OFFICER stupidity. I think that even today i’d have a hard time not punching him. I hope he is around to read this!!! Irish and Williams got along like oil and water.
Fred: Was Williams a goofy looking Lt with a Medical Corps background?
Was Irish in D Co?
I was the 3rd plt rto when we went into that bunker complex. My Lt.’s name was Hendrix, and my platoon sgt was named McCaffrey, known as Irish. Crazy guy from NYC who had a bushy mustache and walked on most every platoons point team. I remember there being 16 bunkers and being ambushed the day before we went in there and discovered them. Molian (sp?) was killed leading a water gathering detail, and after his death the detail was suspended and the bunkers were destroyed and we left and tried to find our pz the next day with no luck. McCaffrey told the CO he heard chopping up ahead and a Pink Team was bounced to look for the source of the noise. When no activity was seen by the aircraft McCaffrey asked if they happened to see a large clearing ( our pz we couldn’t find) and they saw it and we were able to finally get outa there and back to Crossed Sabres. Irish got a big kick outa using those Loaches to find our way out of that place. I was made the CO’s rto shortly after that while we were on Spudis which was a large 11th ACR Fire base that we knocked down and made into a Company sized triangular FB similar to Grunt. February 72 I think
Doug Stamper, I clearly remember you. I remember Lt. Hendricks, too, particularly on a mine sweep we he and his squad or platon was providing security. But through these years I thought you were a medic. So you were the RTO, eh? I have either a photo of you or a Grunt magazine or Garry Owen newspaper article that has a picture of you that I wrote down the names of the guys that were in it.
I was the engineer that blew those bunkers. I was there in nearly the same spot where Molilenan was a few minutes before he was shot. I thought, though, that he was taking out an OP relief rather than a water detail. Here’s the brief details of Moilanen.
DALE BURTON MOILANEN. He was killed February 1, 1972, 6 weeks after he arrived in-country.
Yes, Irish was a different guy. The blond, handle-bar moustache was unforgettable.
One time (I think I mentioned this earlier) we ran into a bunker complex and we all halted (perhaps the same patrol), He came down the line and passed the word that the lead element was going to recon by fire. There was some firing.
Then he came back and said they were going to recon by grenade. After that a few explosions. Then a long, long silence.
He eventually came back and joked they must be reconning by bayonet.
So what’s been up with you these last 40 years?
The stupidest officer I saw over there was running security for me while I mineswept the road from Spudis one morning.
I’m on the left side of the road running the mine detector and over on the left shoulder, about seven or eight meters in front of me, is this Lieutenant. I seem to recall that his branch was Medical Corps. I think he wore eyeglasses. He was a goodf looking guy.
I stopped, pulled my headphones down around my neck and said something like “Hey, Lt, do see anything wrong with this picture? If you’re gonna sweep that shoulder for me I may as well bring up the rear because you don’t need me up here.”
I went back and told my people to not ever send that dumbass out with me again.
I go back weekly and read updates for this subject. I find comments about people and places and/or events that happened while I was there. I saw Lt. Hendicks name above this posting and remembered him being my Lt. when I got transferred to Co. C 87th. at Long Bien. I have a First Team Cav magazine that did a big article on him and his platoon finding a huge weapons cache.
Do you remember Lt. Cooks RTO? I think we called him Charles or Chuck. His running buddy was a guy named Jerry Sistrunk when we were in the rear or on a firebase. Anyway, Chuck shot tons of photos and taped lots of mad minutes and of fellow soldiers when we would CA out or get picked up. His photos and recordings would be a treasure trove of info. to have.
I too was at the stand down ceremony when the guy locked his knees and passed out. Did you know Sgt. Stephen Kelley? He approached some of us after the ceremony and said that all the state flags that flew there were also being thrown away. He said that if we wanted the one from our state to take it with us. I brought the Mo. flag home and donated it to the Mo. State Museum in Jefferson City.
Thanks again for this column, it seems to be theraputic in a good way.. Roger Phipps
From R Montoya to F zink no we were B co. Date was 12 May 72 we were on patrol off F.S.B. spudis it was hot lots of bush SGT. Axleys squad had been on point. We stopped and the LT. met with squad leaders.wanted to head back to the N.D.P. SGT Biscamp told Ace( (S.G.T. Axley) that he would take the point.We had taken a few steps when there was an explosion killing biscamp and wounding anouther.
Was Ace Axley a “Shake & Bake” NCOC? Iremember a NCO that assisted with the NCOC class that I graduated from. He was a tall skinny guy with a big mustache that hyphenated every other word with the F word. I think he said one time that he flew planes in Tn.
To R. Phipps – Yes that was Ace. He was a shake and bake squad leader – pretty good guy – pretty good in the bush. Yes – he did fly planes, I believe he was an instructor from TN.
Regarding the red towels or hammocks – had a similar thing happen to me at night. We were on ambush patrol – don’t remember if it was Firebase Spudis but I think so. The ground search radar wasn’t working and they wanted me to get out in the clearing and wave my helmet around so they could pick me up. Surprising how dumb some people can be – not only to give such an order but to follow it! Only thing we got in the ambush were some pigs. Sorry been out of touch – computer took one and crashed and burned! Great hearing from you guys – brings back some memories, some good, some not so good. Check you later (GARRY OWEN)
Commenting on earlier post you had about your CIB and 33 other names on those records. Looked at mine and you are on there. My travels in nam seem to be just like yours
To Thoses that served with amazment:
Lt Williams was tall, thinning hair and a mustche. I believe an admin background. On our first mission he decided the chopper pilots couldn’t find us by cordinances alone to pick us up.. So 5 of us where ordered to stand in an open field with six foot long red towels held over our heads waving for the gaggle. I first refused… but a direct order with threats…well I went out in the middle of the frig’in field laid down on my back put the red towel over my 16 barrel and held it up with my left arm. I figured I’d sacrafice my left arm for god and country. We got back to fire base cross sabres safely but the relationship was never the same. Friends come and go but idiots last forever
Fred: You have described the same moron I had as security the morning of that mine sweep. That is EXACTLY what he looked like.
I know there were a couple of occasions when we weren’t sure where we were so we had artillery fire a spotter round but waving red flags in a clearing? There’s a guy that escaped a frag.
I’m curious, though, where in the hell did you find six foot long red towels?????
Do you remember Doc Roberts?
Yes Irish was in D company
The red towels are more simple to discribe than: Do you remember buying solid color hammock’s from the locals. We used them to swing low and sleep off the ground. Mine was dark blue. Well the LT got some in red., Cut the tie strng from both ends and had a 6 plus foot red nylon cloth seamed on all sides. Brilliant for someone with no brains and trying to get you killed.
Yeah, I used to “swing” when I wnent out with certain companies (others wouldn’t let you). And we had to swing low in case of mortars or incoming fire.
So here’s my funny story about swinging in a hammock. When I first got to Crossed Sabers it was nothing but a piece of dried up dirt right of Highway 1. I pounded in two engineer stakes (what we call steel T fence posts in the civilian world). I had no rope so I took detonating cord (yup, THAT detonating cord– the stuff made with PETN that burns at 32,000 feet per second).
I cut two pieces to hold the hammock up, sat my butt on the hammock to swing in and the det cord sliced right through and I fell on my ass.
I used to carry blasing caps in my pocket like change. Yes, the stupid things we did when we were kids.
Doc Roberts yes the name only. Just remember him as a nice guy. Do you remember the KC named Kim? He was a North Vietnam defector. He was also a Hanoi university trained Medical Doctor. Wonderful man. kind, intellegent, bush savvy took care of you if he liked you. It only took a smile and a little respect towards him to win him over. He was so scared for the war to end and what would happen to him. Yes I wonder what did become of him?.
Doc Roberts…you’d know him. He carried a grease gun. I was with A company once and you guys weren’t far away. Something happened and the firing started. You can always tell a grease gun by the very slow pop .. pop..pop it made. Roberts went back home to Virginia and got a job working for the US Army repairing helicopters in the Washington, D.C. area that were used by high ranking civilian DOD people.
I vaguely remember the KC guy. I used to give him money to go into the ville and bring me back Ramen. I think it was 200 p. By the time Ramen became a big thing back in the states I was tired of it but it was so light to carry instead of C rats. You had to be going somewhere that had water though. You could pull up some bamboo shoot roots to flavor it with.
I have no idea whatever became of those guys. They probably ended up in re-education camps IF they were lucky. I recall working with some Cambodian scouts, too.
Again, being the CO’s rto I Knew Niem the KC or chuhoi we had along with us. He said he was a dr in Hanoi. I also knew Doc Robert. HE called everyone “snuffy” I left VN on the same flight and talked to him in the mid 80′s when he called me on Christmas eve. Last I heard he was in Ft Pierce Florida. My medic in the 3rd platoon was Pete Schagg from Aurora Ill.
I remember Schrag, as well.
Now that you say grease gun i remember better. I still did not know him any more than name. He went home (back to the world) before I did and when i was in the compamy rear once “French” supply sgt about 7foot tall red hair. Tooo tall to go into the bush showed me a grease gun he had in the weapons room. Shoots 45′s if I remember right
Yes, the grease gun fires .45s. Piece of sh*t. Another friend of mine that has posted here (Phil Purdy, Co E) carried a Thompson. Also fired .45s.
The .45 caliber Grease Gun… a P.O.S. says SGM Zinkes. Well, that Sergeant Major is because you weren’t a tanker.
In early 1971 my unit in the Americal received a newly rebuilt M-48A3 battle tank from Okinawa to replace our worn out machine. The thing had been done over from the tracks up, all to original equipment standards right down to the Grease Gun in it’s clip holder on the interior turret bulkhead.
“It’s a P.O.S. ” I said to our tank commander, Sergeant Jose Rojas, the rate of fire is too slow.”
“Watch this, Gunner” he says as he proceeds to remove the recoil spring from the receiver and replace it with a spare recoil spring for one of our .50 caliber machine guns. It’s hard to describe the improvement that heavier spring made but it easily doubled the rate of fire. P.O.S. no more.
The slow rate of fire could be ramped up, for certain, but the the weapons had many other shortcomings, not the least or which is the effective range AND when you ran out of ammuntion, it was highly, HIGHLY unlikely any bird coming in to kick out ammo boxes was going to be kicking out cases of .45. Never mind the issue of reloading the magazines.
Any field weapon you can’t get resupplied with ammuniton is pretty much useless.
Well SGM, it’s like this: considering that an M48A3 tank carried three tons of fuel and ammunition the resupply of .45 ACP was, how do they say, not an issue.
And it was a very handy little gun for the driver, who being crammed into hull would have had to rely on his .45 pistol for any close encounters.
Beauty, SGN, really is in the eyes of the beholder.
Perhaps the thread morphed too much. My comments relate to carry the gun in the jungle.
SMU? S omeone M umbbled U h?….. and got volunteered for a special missions unit? is that right?
Richard,
I was the commander of F Troop, 8th Cavalry until October of 1972. I then became the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group that same month.
To my knowledge, no “Blues” platoon was never used on external operations during the time I was in MR 1. In fact, when I commanded F troop, I was not allowed to employ my organic Infantry Platoon without the permission of the USARV commander!
Please do not hesitate to call/contact me if I can be of any further assistance.
Colonel (Retired) John p. Kennedy
I was with the 11th CAG in 72, I was Col Cass’s crewchief. I also flew with th 62nd and stayed with the US Element of the Four Party Joint Military Commission. In late 72 or early 73, I was on an ash and trash mission with the 62nd when we were called for an emergency medivac. This was somewhere North and West of Danang, maybe even North of Monkey Mountain. As I remember it there were three or four American infantry troops that had set off a couple of booby traps. They threw them on my slick and we headed for the hospital at China beach. Anyone have any information on what infantry unit this was. These had to be some of the last US ground casualities.
Brad; There were MACV SOG/CCN folks in country untill mid july 1973. Other “civilians” and unconventional troops perhaps later. I may know someone who has a better memory than I. Let me know if you are still interested in perhaps some new info, perhaps not.
I would like to speak with anyone on Spudis from E Company 1st Battallion 1st 7th Cav Garry Owen I was called Arkie.
I’ll post your email to the E Co 1/7 Facebook page for you (it’s private page, otherwise I’d direct you to it). Somebody there will know.
Ron, I found somebody at Echo Company that knows you. I’ll give him this link.
Welcome Home Ron! I believe that we were drafted on March 9th 1973 and trained together at Ft. Ord and then went to Ft Carson then on to Nam. I was with 1/7 Echo Co for Jan – August 1972. Please email me and I can tell what has been going on. We have had a couple of reunions and will be having another in 2013 in WI.
Ken Cook
Hey Ron
great to see another post from the 1/7th. I was in Delta company and was company clerk for a month had my ear to the phone line about the Battalion. If i can help?
fred
Just to know about any troops sent to vietnam during 1972, i was station in fort richarson alaska, and our unit 172 inf. was activated to go to num in the early of 1972, but thing cancel out , but my question any troops sent to vietnam during 1972?
Sorry to bust anyone’s bubble, but Tet 1968 was NOT the largest enemy offensive while the U.S. was still combat engaged! The Easter Offensive of 1972 was the largest, with an invasion across the DMZ and out of Laos in the I Corp sector and flanking movements along borders further south to try to “divide” the RSN. The 3/21 of the 196th was ‘moved’ to an A.O. north of Camp Evans in the spring of 1972 south of the river and Camp Carroll. 3/21 Inf. was the last “large” brigade in the Field in Vietnam until the extraction of Aug. 10th, 1972. B.J. Phillips, Co. D, 3/21, 196th L.I.B. 1971-72
Phillips, thank you for your post. I do have these comments.
1. As you information is 39 years old it’s unlikely to burst anyone’s bubble.
2. Can you tell me why you put the words moved and brigade in quotation marks? I’ve noticed this about Americans over the last few years, the incorrect use of quotation marks, and I haven’t been able to get to the source. Perhaps you can help.
3. While you are certainly correct that U.S. forces were combat engaged during the Easter Offensive, you fail to say that those forces were exclusively air and advisory. 3/21 never did engage the enemy and as the 196th was my last unit in Vietnam I consider this to be an act of cowardice second only to abandoning our ally to the North Vietnamese.
Richard Vidaurri
Guadalajara, Mexico
There was NO cowardice on the part of 3/21. They were in the field during the beginning of the Easter Offensive and took casualties while there. They were, however, ordered NOT to search out or seek engagement with the enemy by higher headquarters.
For the record, 3/21 was not a brigade, it was a reinforced battalion.
To imply that the men in 3/21 were cowards is just wrong and an absolutely incorrect reading of actual facts.
Relax Kennedy, I didn’t mean to say that the men of 3/21 were cowards, how could I know that, I was back at Fort Mead by then. I meant the United States, as I meant the United States abandoned its ally, South Vietnam when it became bored with its mismanagement of the war in Vietnam. It seems that your country, while certainly a great nation, is at times also capable of breathtaking feats of cowardice followed by very convenient bouts of amnesia.
Thanks for the correction on Brigade and Battalion! I’m just a grunt! Don’t know if we (3/21) had any specific “orders” not to engage the NVA or what was left to the VC, but we just went about business as usual. That is, Air insertions, search and destroy, Wedge and blocking, L.P.’s , O.P.’s etc. – nothing really changed in our ‘normal’ routine before , during , or after the Easter Offensive. We did, in about June or July, 1972 get two (2) enemy NVA kills, that just stumbled near our NDP shortly before dark, and I was told that one of the officers had NVA documentation to “avoid” American forces – he evidently didn’t do a very good job of that! I’m no history buff – I was just there.
Used the Quotation marks because that A.O., North of Camp Evans was not our “usual” area that we (3/21) operated. Was normally in the areas west and northwest of Danang. Perhaps you remember Charley Ridge and some of those other places. Don’t quite know what to think of your comment about courage or coward! – WE were just grunts and had no decision about where we were or who we confronted or engaged. Fortunetly, we did not engage while north of Camp Evans, but I, personally, attribute that to the B-52′s that stopped the NVA Easter Offensive or just plain luck! It is and was not grunts decision(s) to go to Vietnam, stay there as long as we did, or leave when the U.S. finally pulled out. Courage or being a coward had nothing to do with it as far as grunts were concerned! You need to crawl up some politicians ass when talking about abandoning the South Vietnam area!
Don’t believe for a minute that onl “air” and “advisory” forces were used during the 1972 Easter Offensive! The 1/7 of the 1st Cav took quite a few KIA’s and wounded in the early months of 1972, and the 196th had at least two(2) KIA in that same period of time. The 11th Cav took some hits too! Nixon had put ‘restictions’ on news coverage at that time and most of the public had no idea what was REALLY going on, even those at Ft. Meade. The percertion that Nixon wanted the public to ‘see’ was that the ARVN was capable of defending the southern part of Vietnam. News of a massive offensive by the NVA would have skewed that perception. The people of the U.S. had grown tired of that war, and congress went along with them.
Phillips… you may be on to something here and your post jogged my memory. I was the gunner on the last American battle tank in Vietnam, but because that machine belonged to the 26th Engineer Battalion, Americal Division, no one will ever know that. In any case, when the Americal stood down in November of 1971 my crew and I were shipped by LST to Danang to join the 196th LIB and I was given command of a CEV (Combat Engineer Vehicle, an M-60 tank modified for engineer tasks in the field) perhaps the last such machine in Vietnam.
In any event, in late January 1972 I rotated back to the States after 18 months in Vietnam and I left my crew and that CEV back in Danang. The Easter Offensive, as you know, started two months later. Now, during the entire American phase of the Indochina War there were said to be only three tank-on tank engagements, but in his book “Vietnam Tracks” Simon Dunstan says that there is a rumor that late in the war a CEV engaged and destroyed an NVA tank. If that rumor were to be true that CEV would have been my former CEV, manned by my former crew mates and everything you’re saying would be true. Fascinating. And after all these years.
Don’t know anything about U.S. vs NVA tank confrontations. I was just a grunt, but I do know there was definetely tank barriers, if you will, in the areas north of Camp Evans to try to stop or slow down NVA armour! Perhaps one of the engineers would know something of that “tank battle”, but I am totally unaware of such.
I would not characterize us as abandoning our ally, although some South Vietnamese would argue otherwise. They still blame Nixon for going to China, which they see as the beginning of the end. I was there at the end, rotating back to the world in late February ’73. There was tremendous political pressure to end the war, Nixon had promised to end the war. The Christmas bombings brought the North back to the table, but the South was as intransigent as usual. So a deal was struck without the South being advised and crammed down their throat. We had no leverage with the South because they could not come to grips with the concept that we would really leave. The South, over the years received billions in aid, training, hardware. Everything they needed to maintain their own country. They were left with all the tools they needed to stand, finally on their own two feet. Hardly cowardice.
Years later, I worked with former VNAF personnel who defended Tan Son Nhut. According to them, while the NVA was bombarding the airport, requests were made to Washington for guidance, what do they do now? No one answered the phone. The South Vietnamese had become so dependent on getting their orders from Washington that they had no idea how to make up their own decisions. Tough love for sure. In the end, the South was responsible for their own defense and they failed miserably, which should be no surprise to anyone who served there. I certainly was not surprised.
Lane, I wouldn’t expect n American to characterize the ignominious retreat from Vietnam as cowardice, but that is certainly what it was. First of all the it is instructive to note that every one, count them, every single one of The Best and the Brightest claimed that no one in Washington had any in-depth knowledge of Indochina. This while Bernard Fall (Street without Joy, Hell in a Very Small Place) was teaching at Howard University).
My point here is that throwing money at South Vietnam was not the cure, it was part of the disease. Reform, reform from the bottom up, starting with land ownership and land rents, up through military command structures so that district and province chiefs would be removed from military decisions, up through the General Staff. As the U.S created the country I cannot be persuaded to believe that this was not possible. The entire program is to lengthy to detail here but it’s not that complicated and it could have been done. Oh, and maybe not lying to the American people would also have been helpful.
Vidaurri, the U.S Congress abandoned it’s ally, South Vietnam in late 1974 by refusing to support that government with fuel and ammunition, etc. This betrayal had NOTHING to do with cowardice, however. It had EVERYTHING to do with the lack of moral turpitude on the part of certain U S politicians. Only a fool would mistake that for cowardice on the battlefield.
In 1972 the valiant fight put up by American airmen and others to assist the South Vietnamese in defeating the North Vietnamese’s Easter Offensive was ANYTHING but an act of cowardice!
Not committing 3/21 to the ground war in the 1972 Easter Offensive was a political decision made in Washington, NOT on the battlefield.
Mentioning 3/21 and “cowardice” in the same sentence is irresponsible and provocative. Was that your intention?
Kennedy… although after Spanish and French, English is my third language my conceit is that I can write it better than 99% of living Americans. This of course can be true and still be an insult. I believe, however, that in this case I don’t need your help composing my sentences. Once again, and for the last time, I did not mean to say that the men of 3/21 were cowards. I hope that this satisfies you.
Americans, or people from the United States tend to use slang about the same as people from Mexico and most other countries of the world does also. It is not imperative to speak or write in the perfect “Queens” english! Just chill out dude!
You wrote: “Kennedy… although after Spanish and French, English is my third language my conceit is that I can write it better than 99% of living Americans. This of course can be true and still be an insult. I believe, however, that in this case I don’t need your help composing my sentences. Once again, and for the last time, I did not mean to say that the men of 3/21 were cowards. I hope that this satisfies you.”
Your use of the world “cowardice” in characterizing America’s abandonment of their ally, South Vietnam, suggests that your understanding of the nuances of the English language do not match your grossly inflated opinion of your mastery of English.
Perhaps you should write in Spanish and have someone who DOES know how to use properly nuanced English translate for you…….
Kennedy… I almost forgot, it’s a holiday in your country isn’t it? That explains a great deal. Did we get into the Irish again? As for my English:
1. As this is an English language site it would hardly do for me to write my post in either Spanish or French now would it?
2. One of us is a published author – in English – and one of us isn’t, so mine isn’t the only opinion which I rely on when it comes to your language.
3. When the U.S. creates a little country, then occupies it, then forever alters it’s social and cultural character, then cobbles together a hasty treaty which leaves hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers within that little country’s borders as it makes its escape, I would call that cowardice. Its not a nuanced word because its not a nuanced concept.
4. I cannot for the life of me fathom why you would bother to re-type what I already wrote. Please don’t answer that, I’d rather cherish the memory.
Look, Kennedy, you’re probably not a bad egg, so why don’t you stop jousting with me?
Richard V. – My goodness! Please stop being such a pompous ass!!!
It’s getting old.
Well, since this can of worms was opened up, I guess I might as well jump in with both feet. As we all know, the origins of the Civil War between North and South was the result of an agreement broken by Eisenhower. There was an agreement between the US and North Vietnam for unification, after two years of politicking a vote was to be held which government was to be the legitimate government of a unified Vietnam. Intelligence indicated that Ho Chi Minh would win the referendum and Eisenhower bailed on the deal to prevent yet another Soviet sponsored state to be formed. The end result is what we ended up with. Generally speaking, the average South Vietnamese could care less about the politics involved. They were more interested in their farms and families than anything else. Emperor Bao Dai was deposed by Diem in 1955 and that was the beginning of the end. What was there to choose from? A corrupt Saigon government or a government for the people as promised by the North? Some choice. Our goal was not to save South Vietnam for the people, but for our own political desires. When it was clear later on the war was unwinable, we bailed. We did leave the South with the tools to maintain their independence, but once we made the decision to leave, it was irrevocable. The South had to sink or swim on their own. The North broke the peace treaty and unified the country, which was their plan all along. It is true we created a country that was dependent upon US aid, but sometimes it is best to just walk away. No amount of money or fuel or resources could have prevented the fall of the Saigon government which did not have the support of the people.
Phillips, everyone loves a mystery and I think you may have just helped me solve a very juicy one. That rumor, it has been nagging and tugging at me for years, ever since I first read “Vietnam Tracks.” Why, I’ve asked myself, should a historic event, one of only four tank-on-tank engagements of a 12-year war, be nothing more than rumor? Up until I read your post I had no idea about the news restrictions (look, I hate to be nit-picky, but for your own good you simply have got to stop that misuse of quotation marks), so now it all makes sense. Stay with me here.
Asking just any combat engineer would do me no good. The fact that the 26th Engineers / Americal and then the Provisional Engineer Company / 196th LIB had the only battle tank (M48) in their respective formations was one of those bureaucratic flukes that the Army sometimes produces. When we turned that machine in for good in December of 1971, I was given command of a CEV which is TOE for an Engineer Armor Platoon, and a new crew. My old crew mates were dispersed among the platoon’s other vehicles: portable bridges, a tank retriever, no other CEVs, no more M48′s, nothing else that could shoot back. The CEV, I might add here, while not a real battle tank, carries a 165mm demolition gun. If that round were to land even within 20 meters of anything in the NVA armored arsenal it would at the very least stop it, a direct hit anywhere on the vehicle and the thing would have been history.
January 1972: My last month in Vietnam. The U.S. Army has sent most of its armor to Okinawa for rebuild and the machines are coming back to South Vietnam to equip new ARVN cavalry regiments. The training of those regiments is going poorly, which surprises no one.
January 22, 1972: I rotate, reluctantly because my request for a second extension has been denied, back to the States, which to me is a foreign country, and for the next 40 years, aside from intense study I lose track of what I will forever consider MY WAR – until this morning.
What now? As I said, Phillips, asking just any combat engineer would be an meaningless exercise. But asking the the former Sergeant Jose Hernandez from Coahuila Mexico (ever wonder why there so many of my countrymen in your Army?), who stayed behind when I deros’d would. Because Sgt Hernandez would have been the only man left in the Armor Platoon who would have been qualified to TC that tank…. and if he’s still among the living I think I can get his telephone number.
If life were a thousand year long, Phillips I could never tell you how much I appreciate what you have done for me and I’m certain for my former crew mates.
Best and nay God bless you,
Richard Vidaurri
Guadalajara, Mexico
P.s. Do you think that perhaps I can persuade you to stop saying “I was only a grunt?” Who do you think fought that war anyway?
I probably use the term “I was only a grunt” first out of pride – WE WERE SPECIAL! But, also to let you know that in most cases we were very underinformed as to the BIG picture of what was really going on. In the Easter Offensive I do not believe any NVA armor made it much farther south than southern Quang Tri area in I corp A.O., and I heard nothing about action near DaNang. As stated before the invasion was basically a conventional thrust from the DMZ and Laos, and, I think the NVA intentions was to do the same as they eventually did in 1975 against the ARVN – continuing south to Saigon! Also, I did hear about NVA tank confrontations in the An Loc area further south, but it was always U.S. aerial involved in those battles. Thanks for your service and your countrymen!
I can personally attest to NVA tanks NW of Lai Khe on 12 November 1972, at least three of them. I cannot say whether we had crossed the border, although my pilot suggested we were in Cambodia. We were sent by Chuck-Chuck to investigate reports of three tanks. Sure enough we found them. We followed the tracks from one location to another and found them in a semi-circle in ‘cut outs’ in the foliage….much to our surprise, all three hatches were open and no one was around…..so we decided to drop willie pete’s down the hatches…though we had to do it fast..so we slid sideways, never stopping, me pulling pins and dropping them as fast as I could…got all three. Our snakes did not have the firepower to take them out and the Tow Bird from Fox 8 was dinking around trying to take out a truck full of pigs, in a jungle….which eventually we had to take care of later. So up the tanks went up, presumably Tac Air took care of them later as they were well marked.
F4s took out an NVA tank about a click from FSB Gunt II which was not far from Bien Hoa.
I stand corrected, we where staging out of Tay Ninh, the tanks were NW of there, past Nu Ba Dinh. I was not familiar with FSB Grunt II, but we did do autorotations on top of the flag pole at Bunker Hill.
“i was only a grunt” and I was 1/7th 1971/1972 we did what we where told and never new why. UNTIL I saw a re-election poster for President Richard Nixon. It stated “Why change dicks in the middle of a screw vote for Nixon in 72.” It’s good to be home i think.
Zink….. I enlisted into the U.S. Army when I was 17 years old. I had never been to the States up until that time. I turned 19 and then 20 in Vietnam and I hated leaving the place. My brother also served in the Army, my son recently served with 2nd battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment. Ever since Lieutenant Atanacio Vidaurri served with the Texas Militia during the American Civil War the men in my family have been deeply loyal to the U.S. (or in Atanacio’s case C.S.A.) Army. Some men are just born with the soldier gene, I guess.
Most Americans will never know of the intense suffering endured by the American infantryman in Vietnam. They’ve never cared and they don’t want to hear about it now. And the Army was very much to blame for that misery. There was, for instance, no reason to keep men out in the field during monsoon, month after month without a single stand-down to their base camp. It was inhuman that their own side would do that to them while the base camps were teeming with unemployed men with nothing to do but go insane with boredom and then turn to alcohol and heroin. And who thought up the Individual Replacement Policy? Was that a stroke of genius or what?
How many Americans do you suppose know that the American infantryman in the Pacific in WWII, over a three year period, saw combat an average of 40 days, but in Vietnam, over a single year, it was 240 days? Who volunteers to go out and find a military-age American who would care?
Vidaurri steps down from soap box, stands down for remainder of day. Bless you all.
Fran… you’re back? And speaking of old…. last I heard they’d put you away in a menopause asylum. (Sorry, but you ought to know better than launch unprovoked attacks on me.)
Richard V. – Back? I have been here. Watching you provoke people and then tell them to ‘relax’. Listen.. evidently.. you have no idea who I am. And most importantly… you have no idea who Colonel Kennedy is.. or else you would never be so disrespectful to him. Mark my words.
Well, I know who you are not, Fran. You aren’t a veteran of anything but the J.C. Penny’s President’s Day Sale. You’re the nut case who flamed out at me once for referring to platoons and squads, versus brigades and divisions as “odds and ends. You’re a neurotic old bird who’s husband lied to her about his service and now has been frantically searching for phantom proof of of things, places, and events she’ll never, ever find. Am I getting warm?
The more you pick at me the worse it’s going to get.
Richard V. – Poor Baby… Been this way all your life?
For your information.. my husband is 100 percent Permanent and Total … 210 percent cumulative. His troop was part of the 11th Combat Aviation Group of which Colonel Kennedy was S3. Jim was a doorgunner on UH-1 helicopter. He served on the Nighthawk bird along with others that returned as well. There are more than Colonel Kennedy of the 67 plus members that meet at our reunions each year that know Jim and of his service. We need absolutely no validation from anyone to prove his service or mine. I served MY country as a United States Marine and require no benefits.
Unlike a parasite like you, who thinks he knows something, Colonel Kennedy and the rest of the troop who are actual combat veterans laugh when we understand the degree of your stupidity and realize there really is no point in having a conversation with you.
(P.S. My husband married a younger wife and I am totally freaking HOT.. So your insults are totally falling on deaf ears.)
As well, I am here on this site to help other REAL Vietnam Veterans not to tell everyone how awesome I am all the time like you. Compensating?????
We have a word for people like you:
PUSSY
Richard V.
I quote you:
“The more you pick at me the worse it’s going to get.”
ARE YOU SERIOUS???
Ha!!!
Only REAL PUSSIES say things like that to who they believe are elderly women.
What a ‘big man”.
You are really are trying to compensate aren’t you?
Your must be still mad from when they laughed you out of the showers before you got kicked out of boot camp for peeing in the bed.
C’mon, folks ….
Okay, Bob, you’re right. We now have Netflix in Mexico and my wife is waving at me with a Vodka Martini in her hand, Sorry I let it get out of hand.
Fran… “totally freaking hot” Yes, I hear that’s one of the symptoms. If Kennedy is an “actual combat veteran” would that make me a what, an “unactual combat veteran?” Please don’t stop, I’m starting to enjoy this. Same with “REAL Vietnam Veterans. so I spent 18 months in an UNREAL Vietnam, is that what you’re saying?
If I’m a parasite presumably I”m feeding off of something or someone. Any ideas there?
As for that last word, Fran, I think only you would be qualified to comment.
This thread started out very interesting and has been very beneficial to many of us who served a tour in Viet Nam. Unfortunately, it has The time I spent in Viet Nam as a young Lieutenant flying Cobra Helicopters during the Easter offensive of 1972.was a significant event in my life as I believe it was for many others who have posted on this site.
Please stop the personal attacks and political comments and focus on the details of what happened at the small unit level.
Respectfully,
Dave Wallace D-229th AHB and H Troop 10th Air Cavalry
Amen, Dave!
For the record, Fran, RIchard is a former member of the 196th Light Infantry Brigade. He IS one of us and served with honor!
We may dig at each other but the respect never goes away……….
Jack Kennedy –
Noted.
I have been posting on this site for many years and have enjoyed it immensely listening and learning from everyone here. It has been to my dismay to see it digress into provoking statements and unnecessary insults in the last few months.
Lacking the fine diplomacy skills of Dave Wallace (Thank You!)… I digressed as well by calling it as I saw it and dishing back what was served to me.
I apologize to all and will now gladly cease.
Again, thank you Dave.
See, Kennedy (not trying to be cute, in Latin countries men other than close friends address each other by paternal surname) I knew you were a much nicer man than I can ever hope to be.) Anyway, as you undoubtedly know,for Catholics, the Lenten season is a time of retrospection and penance. But in my household that time comes next week. Because every year, it is the first day of December that I take Gabrielle d’Amboise-Vidaurri to New York City for one week of shopping for her and penance for me. Ha… and you folks complain about your national debt.
So, Kennedy, although I’m certain that you don’t wish such a thing you’ll have your revenge. I won’t return to this board unless and until I make contact with the former Sergeant Hernandez, M-48 Tank Commander, and see if he can shed light on that rumor of the fourth and last tank-on-tank battle of the Vietnam War. If so I’m going to need a lot of help getting it into the official records.
God Bless you all and a Very Merry Christmas.
Well, I didn’t check my spelling or sentence structure either LOL
Please disregard the word “unfortunate” in the sentence above.
There’s those pesky quotations marks again. Dang
Dave
Wallace… a stab in my heart, but I had that one coming.
For the record, the TOW B Model Huey when attached F/8 Air Cav, never operated anywhere near Lai Khe. Don’t know who owned the TOW helo chasing them pigs around but it was not attached to F/8 at the time.
I thought I had made the correction from Lai Khe to Tay Ninh. There is something weird about that day as well that I have not been able to nail down. For years I have been trying to chase down my orders for the DFC I was awarded for that action. To no avail I might add. I know when and who signed the orders, but there appears to be no record to be found. Anyway, while I was trying to track down that date, found the after action reports for that time period. Oddly enough, I could not find any reference to that day (which was a really big thing) and what transpired from F/9′s records. What I did find though was an after action report from F/8 which closely resembles what happened that day, and it was signed by Major Dantzler (what an act he was).
As for the TOW bird, I have no idea who it belonged to. All I know was we got directed to the area and I got up close and personal with the 40mm CS and 60 fire. From the direction we came from, there were plenty of trees, but on the opposite side (I could never figure out where north or south was) it was fairly open. Thinking back, if VNAF or ARVN had one, maybe it was them. We were told there was a VNAF helicopter base at Dau Tieng, which I suppose would have been closest. I don’t t remember ever flying missions with F/8 at all. We all went our own separate ways. Frankly, I don’t remember them doing much of anything after they came down, we always flew first and last light. The only contact we had with them was the CS and pin flare wars at night. We pulled main gate guard as well. We had to be on the lookout for Major Dantzler because he would sit in his jeep at night down by the water tank by the motor pool in the shadows in case we let his guys come in with um……guilty pleasures. We would direct his guys to take the ‘back way’ if they were um…in possession.
John,
I was only commenting that the TOW system was not attached to F Troop, 8th Cav at that time. It definitely was NOT a VNAF bird though.
Lost award citations and orders were very common at that time. Knowing who signed the order might help you track down your DFC award. I assisted three members from F/8 obtain their DFCs in 2003. The entire award recommendation had to be resubmitted! If I can be of any assistance to you in that matter do not hesitate to contact me.
I take it you were assigned to F/9th? Ironically, I was supposed to take command of F/9 when I arrived in Vietnam but ended up commanding F/8 instead.
Regarding your encounter with the NVA tanks in November of 1972, F/8 took part in an encounter with a T-54 in the summer of 1972. An NVA tank was reported stuck in a river bottom and the SS-11 MIKE Model Huey attached to F/8 was sent out to destroy it. Escorted by 4 F/8 Cobras, the SS-11 Bird made 6 runs on the target, never receiving ANY fire from the tank. It apparently had been abandoned! Five of the 6 SS-11 wire guided missiles missed the tank and a 6th missile would not come off the rail. The ARVN later reported the tank as being “killed” having been hit by 4 Cobra loads of 2.75 rockets. I know of no other instance in MR I where helicopters engaged enemy tanks during the Easter Offensive.
Perhaps that tank was the one not far from FSB Spudis. That on, though (I believer) was “killed” by F4s.
Bob,
I am pretty sure the T-54 I am referring to was not destroyed by F-4s unless, of course, they were carrying 2.75 rockets. And, as I recall, that was about the time the USAF would not operate below 10,000 feet in MR I due to the threat from the SA-7 Strella missile. Kind of hard to hit a lonely T-54 with dumb ordnance from the spectator seats…….
The ARVN reported to FRAC “numerous” 2.75 rocket hits on the tank producing a mobilty kill.
I was with F/9 from September 1972 until were stood down in mid-February 1973. As I recall F/8 came to Bien Hoa in October. I don’t remember seeing a TOW bird with them, they did have one OH-6 with a minigun, which was taken out by command detonated claymore (so I was told) in a clump of trees. The date of my encounter was 12 November 1972. I remember that day all to well. I could not say if they were T34 or T54′s, what did I know about tanks? The last thing I remember before went looking for them was ‘Sabre 14, be advised no friendly activity in the past 5′. They were easy to find, just followed the tracks. There three in a semi-circle and hatches open. Down the hatches went the frags. Wally Gator (Sabre 14) was funny, he was trying to figure out the best way to drop them, we chose on flying sideways. It was after that when we were sent to look for the trucks the TOW bird could not hit. I know we did not have one. After that, after refueling we just took off from Tay Ninh and got the emergency call to rescue two VNAF pilots who got blown out of the sky in the Michelin, SA-7′s. We were the only one’s in the air and so we went…..the rest is history. When did Major Dantzler take over F/8? You were supposed to replace Major Hewitt with F/9?
Major Hewlett took over F/9 in May of 1972. His predecessor Major Coleman McDevitt left command of F/9 in April of 1972. I got in country in March of 1972 and was originally designated as Major McDevitt’s replacement. Meanwhile, up North, Major William Head took over F/8 in January of 1972 and went home on emergency leave in March of 1972. I was sent from my position as S-3 of the 229th Combat Aviation Battalion at Bien Hoa to Marble Mountain in March of 1972 to replace Major Head.
Major Dantzler replaced me in October of 1972 when I was assigned as the S-3 of the 11th Combat Aviation Group. Shortly after that the 11th CAG was tasked to send one it’s three air cavalry troops South. F/8 was in the best position to fulfill this tasking so they were selected and sent ot the 12th CAG.
Major Dantzler was an odd duck according to his troops. From what we could tell, they were not a very well disciplined unit. I mean F/9 wasn’t disciplined as one would expect back in the world, we were basically self policing if you know what I mean. F/8 seemed to us to be pretty much a bunch of misfits, no offense meant. Maybe it was sibling rivalry. We had been the only Cav unit in the area and were always busy. Maybe we were a bit territorial.
John,
F/8 shared MR I with two other air cavalry troops , F/4 and D/17. F/8 lived in Marble Mountain and then “Dogpatch” at Danang Main with D/17 and NEVER had an incident with D/17. In fact, whenever either one of the other two air cavalry Troops got in trouble or if we did, the rest would come to the rescue like blood brothers. This was demonstrated over and over again throughout the Easter Offensive.
I have no idea why some in F/9, a grand old air cavalry troop like F/8, did not get along with F/8 but I can GUARANTEE you that it had nothing to do with F/8 being a bunch of “misfits”! Perhaps having another classy air cavalry troop in town was something they just were not used to handling.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, it was nice to have some sort of back up when F/8 came down. Yes, I would characterize the situation like a sibling rivalry. We were separated by the motor pool, but shared the same gate as we only had one. I used the term misfits in the context that they weren’t very well disciplined, I suspect they might have been cobbled together. Maybe disciplined is not the best term. They were the ones who usually started the CS wars. Good clean fun I suppose. They had some really wild guys over there. One guy was a native American with a bit of a drinking problem, one night he put on his war paint and climbed up on the roof of one of the hootches screaming his ‘war cry’. Took quite a bit to get him down. Don’t get me wrong, we had our strange birds too. One guy was so burned out, probably scag, he was with the Blues thankfully, one night he came out on the flight line, all blacked out with a flashlight claiming to find the tunnel to Saigon, but the little green men would not let him pass.
I suppose it did irk them a bit that we had our ‘Fort Courage’ rotor blade marking our territory. Then again, they too were an ‘F’ troop.
Yes, SA-7′s were a problem. All out birds had the IR deflectors and we never lost one due to a a Strella. I remember when that Shithook went down in III Corp, down in the Delta all souls lost, we were told that they were then ordered not to fly above 300 feet because the SA-7 could not lock on that low. All we knew for sure was 0-9000ft in 4 secs is nothing to be trifled with. Which makes the two VNAF jets being taken down by SA-7′s in the Michelin all the stranger to us. By the time we got there, we knew what they may have been after, lots of bad guys and at least one 23mm antiaircraft weapon. Maybe a target of opportunity? It just seemed odd because we weren’t working the AO. Maybe a couple of cowboys? The guy I collected was actually wearing cowboy boots.
John, were you with the Blues in April or May of ’72 during the Easter Offensive?
Our Blue Team got a couple of days off and I went to the flight line to hop a ride to Vung Tau. They said they had an infantry going down later in the afternoon. I decided not to wait and hitchhiked down and when I got there, I found out 33 guys got killed when it went down. I thought that hook went down as a result of a chain breaking.
Isolated? Well, with arrows sticking out of that old wooden fort wall who cut the knowing wanted to go there?!
Are you referring to the Chinook that went down near a firebase outside of Bien Hoa? If you are, that was the fire base I was at in May of 72. I was part of the clean up crew. It was called Fire Base Melanie.
I flew guns for F/9 during the 1972 Easter Offensive. Not sure when I left county, but I found an OER signed by MAJ George P. Hewlett, dated 24 June 1972. I also have an OER that covered the period thru September 1972, which sounds about right. Most official records say the last combat troops from the 1st Cav left Viet Nam on 21 June 1972. However, when I left Viet Nam (almost sure it was Sep 72) members of the F/9 Air Cav were still flying combat operations. I guess it really does not matter to many folks now.
Maj. Hewitt was the CO of F/9 when we were disbanded in Feb 1973. We were definitely still flying up until the cease fire in January, every single day.
Oh, I spoke with Wally Gator some years back, he asked if I got my DFC, which I was awarded with no fanfare at HQ 782d Maint. Bn. in May of 1973. The odd thing was that when I left the army, there was no record of it in my 201 file, nor does the Army seem to have any record of it. Major Hewitt said it’s not unusual because were weren’t really a ‘real’ unit, a quasi-provisional one, but the paperwork does exist, just he has no idea where. The orders came from 12th CAG, Lt. Col. McQueen signed them on or about 13 February 1973, SO 212 as I recall. Wally asked as he was awarded a Silver Star for 12 November and wanted to know if I got my DFC. Unfortunately for me, I sent all my records to my mother and they were destroyed in a flood in Ft. Kent, ME long ago. It’s just one of those things that has been nagging me for many years.
John,
I would write to the National Archives and ask them how you can obtain Special Orders from the 12th CAG from January, 1973 until they stood down in RVN in March of 1973. Give them the SO number you think it is for starters.
Another approach would be to have Major Hewett and any other survivors you can find to reconstruct the action that day in the form of a belated awards recommendation. DoD has an awards section that assists in processing lost award recommendations.
Anyway you look at it, it was almost criminal how badly awards were handled in the last days of the war. Lieutenant Jim McQuade’s Medal of Honor recommendation was lost and had to be resubmitted a year and a half later!
I am sorry this has happened to you and countless other brave men who deserved better.
ok a was a little off hand…last time. I am now an accredted Doc. working with so many of the “unknowns”:, your final comment about the medals and all was moving….you know those medals are dated (lacking poser infiltration), please General give them what they are due….we all know who we are succeeded in “dot connecting”. Boots left in small units way up till 1977! I feel you know this…. it is not about benifits or money it is about recognition! So many “small” units” did not know the “wire” displacment or deployment reasons. or whom they were advising at the time!…it is a job and they were SPECIAL!
Im proud to have served with the 11th cag led by col cass in 1972.
regardless of who was first or last in country i have a deep respect
for all who answered the call to duty. some gave the ultimate
sacrifice while others came home broken in body or spirit. at
the end of the day in my mind this is still the greatest nation in
the history of the world. god bless america
I have read the previous posts with great interest and some frustration. I was recruited into F/8 by my former stick buddy in Flight School, Dusty Holm. Sadly, he was killed just before I stood down the last remnants of the 48th AHC (Blue Stars) at Marble Mtn and reported to Major Jack Kennedy, Troop CO of F/8. He assigned me as the Blues Platoon Leader, I suppose because I was Ranger qualified….not common for a pilot in those days.
I participated in operations across I Corps until October 1972 when we deployed to III Corps and Bien Hoa AFB. As Blue Ghost Blue I primarily functioned as an AMC for recon, search and rescue, BDA and quick response missions, while also serving as the Blues Plt Ldr. We used our blues for unit security, some on-ground BDA and SAR functions. When we arrived at Bien Hoa, most of the American infantry were pulled out and sent home and we received Chinese Nungs as replacements. They had their own Platoon Leader who was Chinese.
Upon arrival in III Corps, myself, the Troop CO and the Gun Plt Ldr attended a briefing where we were told our primary mission was to find an NVA/Russian 130MM Towed Arty BN that intel was tracking West of Nui Ba Din and that they believed was intending to get near Saigon in order to bring it under indirect Arty fires…..talk about a potential game changer! So that is what we did until we found it in late October. We engaged it until the Air Force brought in heavy air, to include an Arc Light. That was a hell of day and an interesting story! No one got a single award from any US military command for that operation! In 1974 I received, via the U.S. Air Force, an VN Cross of Gallantry for the operation. The Army refused to award it to me and it is not in my records. I do have the citation and the medal.
When I came back to the US in Dec 1972, I DROS’d with a load of unit members for F/8 and F/9. We were stripped of all clothing and records, to include 201 files, orders, wallets, flight logbooks and cameras…everything but our ID cards and Dog Tags. We were given civilian clothing on the flight line and all the liquor we could carry. We boarded at Pan AM 707 and flew home. Upon arrival at Travis AFB, we were given $300, an airline ticket to our home of record and told to wait at our homes for orders. I went home and received orders for a Chinook unit at Fort Bragg. Upon arrival there, I had no records, they had no records for me and Branch told me they were trying to find them. They never did and I still have no official records for that period of my service. I did keep and send home some of the routine unit orders, such as extra duty orders.
I retired as a Colonel O-6 in 2000. For every promotion board during my career I had to provide evidence of my service for this period, My Official US Army Personnel microfiche simply has a letter from the G-1, 18th Airborne Corps in it that states “the whereabouts of Captain Hoffman during 1972 are unknown by this command”. There are pay records of course, but they do not provide evidence of Honorable Service, just regular pay, flight pay and combat pay. The VA does not except pay records as evidence of combat service……very strange.
I never smoked but I have lung cancer now. My Dad was also in RVN in 1972 (his third tour) as an Air Force Colonel working with South Vietnamese Air Force units around RVN and he died in 2010 of lung cancer. It took me two me two years to convince the VA that I was in RVN. The National Personnel Records Center in St Louis reports that they can find no records for me in RVN or for F/8 after August 1972 and they told Senator Burr (NC) that they believe that all records for Soldiers in RVN in 1972-73 were burned in a mysterious fire in 1973. If you did not keep your own copies, you have little to prove your combat service during this period. While I do have my own records for some Air Medals for flight operations and a Bronze Star from August 1972 (while assigned to the 48th), I have no other A&D for my service in RVN. These are no in records at NPRS, so it is tough to make the case. Testimonials from other unit members are the best help but your application to the VA will be at the bottom of the pile.
My son is now an Army Major in special operations with 10 tours in SW Asia under his belt. I counsel him regularly on record keeping.
John T. Hoffman, Colonel, USA, Retired
Col. Hoffman, interesting you mentioned the VN Cross of Gallantry. I received mine over on the Air Force side in Dec 72 for action on 12 November 72. It was an action where, with F/9, we were involved with collecting two downed VNAF pilots in the Michelin. Maybe you can shed some light on this emergency operation. Originally I was operating west of Nu Ba Din (not suggesting we were in Cambodia) looking and finding three Russian tanks. After refueling we were called out to the Michelin. Upon reflection of that action and the way it happened and after reading the F/8 after action report (even though I was with F/9), it raises some questions. I could find no reference to this action from Major Hewitt from F/9, however I did find an after action report from Major Dantzler that was generally speaking what we had done. I have always found this curious. I was unaware of any joint F/8 and F/9 operations, but I wonder now if the call we received actually came from F/8 and since we had just lifted off from Tay Ninh after refueling, we got the call. It was all very confusing at first, all we knew was that two VNAF pilots got shot down in the Michelin and no one knew where they were. Is it possible that Dantzler took credit for something we did?
As for your records. I left in Feb 1973 and I know that 12th CAG was scrambling to close up shop and I was told later that a lot of the paperwork was squirreled away in some repository outside DC, this according the Mr. Lundwall (Wally Gator), from Major Hewitt. I have been able to find many records online, just takes a lot of patience and thinking outside the box. What you cannot find online directly because the records have not been scanned, you can still do a search and locate records and then make the request with the box numbers. We were a provisional unit (F/9) and as I recall F/8 was also a consolidation unit, which also leads to problems of tracking down records. If you left in Dec 72, and F/8 had just showed up from 11 CAG, I can imagine why the records are screwed up.
Frankly I am glad you guys came down as it was pretty lonely being the only Cav unit around, we were pretty busy. As you know all too well, where we were located at Bien Hoa, we were pretty isolated on the whole base.
John,
Please call me.
575-937-7359
colonel jack Kennedy,i would like to ask you a question in relation to the loss of army services document in 1972 in Nam,what is going to happen with all this soldiers who serve in Nam and there is not record proved of serve in Nam cos as you mention before what went on that time with documentations got destroy it and burn,so is that means my army documents got destroy or burn?and what can i do now.i have been waiting for 41 years for the DVA in Australia and USA to accepting my claim.i was in vang tau and in long binh hospital as a field medic from 71-72.i volunteer to go to longh binh to help to pack up and clean up. please feel free to contact me
yours sincerely
Henry Gutierrez
Henry,
I am not aware of any mass destruction of records kept in the USA documenting the service of soldiers who served in Vietnam. If you have lost your discharge DD Form 214 you can obtain a replacement through the following site:
http://www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records/
Good luck!
Jack,
Great speaking with you today. Sometime, somewhere, someone needs to capture the history of F/8 during this period and publish it!
Speaking of the 50 ship lift back into Quang Tri, I have a few pictures from that mission. One of them shows the destruction on HWY 1 as we flew north after departing the main PZ north of Hue near the old R&R station. There is a PT-76 in the frame just before it fired its main gun (76m) at our formation. Of Course he mised and was immediately creamed with 2.75 rockets. In that same frame is a downed F-4 in the distance. Another shows all of the US helicopters on the ground in the PZ waiting to load the ARVN troops. I was not in F/8 at that point, I was in then 48th, also flying out of Marble Mtn. I did not transfer into F/8 until the first of August, 1972.
I was one of the AMCs for that mission to Chu Lai, as you may recall, where we operated from Rosemary’s Point to support operations in the southern part of the province. That was the first time that Dick Blystone from AP spent a week flying on missions with us. I still have a TWX copy of an article he did on that young boy who hung around us at Chu Lai and worked in the small O’Club that the Spec Ops guys operated there. I spoke to him years later in London in 1995, when he was the CNN Bureau Chief there. I was on my way to Moscow for meetings with the Russian Military on sharing access to their remote sensing satellite systems as a part of a Gore-Chernomyrdin Commission project. He remembered the times he flew with F/8 in I Corp and III Corp in late 1972. He still had photos and he gave me several copies, including one of me flying a mission near Nui Ba Din. Small world!
John
I would LOVE to see the pictures from the 50 ship lift!
You folks are aware of the 229th Yahoo Group, aren’t you? If not, send my an email and I’ll put you in touch as I’m one of the members.
I knew Dane from ROTC at ASU and when I just saw Dane Hatley’s comments, it brought back some amusing memories. The last time I saw Dane was at Lai Khe 23 Jun 1972. I had just been shot down along with CPT Paul “Bimbo” Lent in a Smiling tiger (D-229th AHB) snake somewhere SE of Quon Loi. A Bravo troop slick picked us up within five scary minutes and dropped us off on the air strip at Lai Khe. I think F/9 also lost a snake that day or at least within a couple of days of the 23rd. I think 1LT Karl Bruener was the front seat, but I no longer remember the back seat
Dane was sitting by a tree eating a loaf of french bread and drinking a coke which I think he said he bought from a mamasan. When Dane saw me he said “Wallace you look like shit” and offered me some bread and part of his soda. I have a vivid memory of this, but when I talked with Dane a few years back he had no memory of this event :–).
I finished up my combat tour with H troop 10th Cavalry at An Son in II Corp and we flew combat missions right up to the cease fire. If any of you have a chance to read the VFW magazine (Feb 2013 issue) Richard Koob has written a good article talking about the Air Cav troops there at the end. God Bless all you old Cavtroopers–We stood our watch!
I SERVED WITH A GUY AT FT STUART GA.AFTER MY TOUR NAME OF NEAL KENNEDY.I BELIEVE HE WAS A GUNNER WITH THE 229TH ANYONE KNOW HIM.STILL LOOKING FOR INFO ABOUT MAN WOUNDED WHEN SGT. LYNN BISCAMP WAS K.I.A. ALSO ANY INFO ON 7TH CAV OR GARRY OWEN TASK FORCE REUNIONS. MONTOYARICH12@YAHOO.COMM
I was in Vietnam from Feb 1972 until Feb 1973, shortly after the “peace agreement” was signed in Paris. I began as a forward observer with F Btry, 26th Arty, part of Task Force Gary Owen, 1st Cav Division, at Bien Hoa. I remember the S3, the young-looking major Binford Peay, who later commanded the 101st Abn Div in Desert Storm, and as a four-star, USCENTCOM.
There was a shortage of forward observers (FOs), so I served with three different infantry companies operating out of Fire base Melanie.
On 10 May 1972, while with D/2/8, 1st Cav, call sign “angry skipper,” one of the platoons and I were bumped from a Chinook at Bien Hua as the company was being flown to Vung Tau for in-country R&R. While waiting for the next lift, word came back that the chopper had gone down and a full-strength company was slated to combat assault into the area to secure the chopper. There was no FO with this company, so I had to go with them into the area.
When we were air-lifted in there was only the charred remains of the chopper, with bodies scattered a few hundred yards around the site. The Chinook had lost a blade, went out of control, and troops spilled out of the open ramp at the back. All were burned because a fire consumed them and the vegetation all around the site – no survivors. The heat was so intense from the burning fuel that the magnesium alloy of the chopper ignited and increased the temperature, melting parts of weapons and the chopper itself. However, the bodies retained their shapes, but uniforms, helmets, and skin were burned to a jet black color.
I had known everyone in that platoon (Skull), so was more connected to the troops from the chopper than the troops of my new company. When the bodies were recovered and the remains of the chopper removed for analysis – it took about three days – I remained with the company as it moved off on a regular patrol.
In August 1972 my six months with the new company and the 1st. Cavalry Division ended when the last unit was flown back to the US.
I served the remaining six months as the senior adviser to the ARVN 104th Artillery Battalion, at Long Binh, a newly-forming unit being equipped with 175 mm self-propelled artillery guns. I had another lieutenant, Don Moran, a Citidal graduate, and two NCOs to assist.
Thiáşżu tĆ°á»›ng (major) Than, the battalion commander, was a true professional who as a captain had commanded an artillery battery during the 1968 Tet Offensive which had accounted for large numbers of Viet Cong KIAs. When the Paris “Peace Agreement” was signed in Feb 1973, he, and his officers, told us the NVA would not honor the agreement and would invade again. I ofter wonder what became of him.
As for the chopper crash: For the most part we didn’t use each others names, especially in the bush. This was especially true for me, because I was mostly with my supported companies in the field, and would generally return to my parent artillery back in the base.
Without knowing their names I could not look them up when visiting the Vietnam memorial (I live in the DC area). I eventually found them through the “Angry Skipper” web site: http://angryskipperassociation.org/ when I clicked on D/2/8 Honor Roll and found about 21 KIAs on May 10th, 1972, and the name of the company commander, Cpt Ken Rosenberg I knew I had found them. I clicked on Ken’s name and saw his photo. He seemed much older back in 72, but to me now looks much younger.
Since then my wife and I have been to about 4 Angry Skipper reunions, which take place in different locations in the US, and about every four years in Washington, when we have a ceremony at the Vietnam memorial. When we were there in 2011 I got Fred Downs, a neighbor who wrote “The Killing Zine, my life in the Vietnam War” (a gripping read) as the guest speaker. He gave a great presentation and was very warmly received. Here is one of the Angry Skipper newsletters: http://angryskipperassociation.org/pdf_documents/ASA%20Newsletter%202012%20January.pdf
We look forward to our next reunion in June in San Diego.
John D.
Unbelievable – Someone else who remembers Malanie. I was there in ’72. I was on the last chopper out with the Major when we turned it over to the ARVN. I have search everywhere for references to Melanie without much success. I was an E5 in Echo Company. After turning the FB over to the ARVN, I was relocated to the Army Base at Bien Hoa and was manning one of the radar towers the morning of the August 1st Rocket attack on the Army and Air Force Bases. I remember thinking – My last day at Bien Hoa and they have have to attack today. I was scheduled to leave for Tan Son Nhut Air Base for processing out of country back to the world on that day.
I was a 1LT FO walking with A/2/8th out of Melanie from the beginning of 1972 until June 1972. I remember the Chinook crash. We were in the bush at the time. Our company CO was Fred Vengelen, a great guy. Platoon leaders were Bob Clark (later CG of the 101st), Dave Carr and Robb Stewart. I am still in touch with Clark, and saw LTC Blagg years ago. He lives in Colorado. Long time ago.
WOW – we were on the same fire base at the same time. Did you ever make down to the outpost at the bridge that lead into the fir base?
We had a few days off from the 229th Blue Team so I decided to go to Vung Tau. I went to the airfield to see if they had any birds going out and they told me they did in the afternoon. It was morning so I decided to, literally, hitchhike.
I caught a ride with two or three different Vietnamese and when I got to the gate at Vung Tau they asked me if I was from the bird that went down. That’s when I learned about it.
Tragic.
Michael Evenson did I talk to you before about E Co, their Facebook page and reunions?
I also have a Facebook page called Garryowen Riff Raff. Guys from E Co include Tom Preece, Pat Jones, Larry Berber, Alton Eckert and several others you may know.
We have some D Co guys like Walter Roberts, Pete Schag (both medics), Doug Stamper (radio), etc.
Hit me up if you’re interested and have a FB page.
Michael Evenson here are some other names from the page: Bruce Goetsche, Tom King, Shannon Gibson, George Potter, Robby McPhail and Paul Wessman (FO) to name a few others.
There is also a new challenge coin, if you’re interested.
face book – michael.evenson@facebook.com – I’ve got some pictures of Fire Base Melanie posted. It’s been 40+ years so none of the names ring a bell. My forgetter is wroking better than my rememberer these days.
Does anyone know of a couple sniper teams that went in during the early part of 1974. The LTC in charge told us that we were going where we were not supposed to be, doing what we were not supposed to do. We did get about 37 total alive and dead. I was only 20 years old at the time and now I suffer from sleep apnea, PTSD, Night Mares and several other things that the VA prescribe medication for me. I am classified by the VA hospital as 100% disabled, Home Bound and require aid and attendance. The VA says they have lost about the first 2 and a Half years of my records but the VA doctors say that the problems I have would only come from what I went through in Vietnam, I am 59 years old now and have been this way for about 10 years now. The PTSD group I am in has about 24 in it and we are all in our late 50′s and early 60′s.