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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > History Library > Alternate Timelines

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Alternate Timelines The great "what if's" of military history.

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  #106  
Old 13 Nov 10, 17:29
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Things are going well Maior.

They die like flies without their air cover. Our numbers out weight their numbers. Maybe Rubin is right and the key is air-power. Keep pushing them and capture as many supplies as we can. Leave a guard behind at the depots along with an anti-aircraft unit. We need those supplies both for us and for the others back home. We need strong factory workers to make the bullets we are putting into American and English bodies.

Our losses have been minimal and very acceptable. It will take them months to get any kind of forces from the US to try and stop us. We must keep pressing them. We have to take the ports on the channel and prevent another Dunkirk. We will not hesitate like the Nazis. We will drive them into the sea. The plan is to by-pass Paris and make a turn for the coast to trap them.

We have to keep in contact with them and cannot let them separate otherwise they will not hesitate to use their strategic bombers like they did on the Nazi pigs. They don't have the stomach to sacrifice their own people even if it means defeat.

Don't worry Marshal we shall say in their back pocket while sticking our finger up their ass. So far we have no need of artillery parks. Our tanks are so superior that the only thing slowing us down is finding fuel and the newer models breaking down. So far the imperialists cannot outrun us. We will use bikes if we have to comrade the will not separate from us.

Besides the only bombers in position are the British Lancasters and Lincolns and we have a few surprises should they try to bomb during the day like the Americans. Even our old fighters can give them a hard time just wait until they meet the newest generation.
  #107  
Old 14 Nov 10, 19:12
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Reds Across the Rhine

Soviet Pravda reports that Red Army units have crossed the Rhine in 3 locations.

By Rex Lemond
UPI
June 2nd, 1946

In an unusual communique the Soviet Government announced that it's units have crossed the vaunted Rhine River in West Germany. This was supposed to be where the newly minted NATO forces stopped the Red Armies units.

It's width, old defensive works and lack of bridges where supposed to be insurmountable. It was thought that the Red Armies lack of amphibious assault equipment and expertise would make the Rhine a natural defensive line the would stop the Reds in their tracks.

According to Soviet sources this has not been the case and they claim to have found numerous bridges intact all along the river. It has been rumored that the speed of the Red Army's advance coupled with conflicting orders have let to at least 3 bridges not being destroyed. Two of these bridges were the temporary bridges ironically constructed by the US Army along with over 60 others.

"We just didn't have the manpower or communications to get the job done." stated a Major who would not identify himself. Reports pour in of Soviet tanks lined up like "on parade" crossing the Rhine.

The Soviet leaderships stated goal of preventing the B29 Super Fortress bomber from being based in Western Germany has long since been shown to be an excuse for the blatant conquest of Western Europe. The base was overrun the fist day of the surprise attack and yet the Red Army has continued to slaughter innocent non-combatants in it's quest for what appears to be world dominance.
  #108  
Old 14 Nov 10, 19:13
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Reds Across the Rhine

Soviet Pravda reports that Red Army units have crossed the Rhine in 3 locations.

By Rex Lemond
UPI
June 2nd, 1946

In an unusual communique the Soviet Government announced that it's units have crossed the vaunted Rhine River in West Germany. This was supposed to be where the newly minted NATO forces stopped the Red Armies units.

It's width, old defensive works and lack of bridges where supposed to be insurmountable. It was thought that the Red Armies lack of amphibious assault equipment and expertise would make the Rhine a natural defensive line the would stop the Reds in their tracks.

According to Soviet sources this has not been the case and they claim to have found numerous bridges intact all along the river. It has been rumored that the speed of the Red Army's advance coupled with conflicting orders have let to at least 3 bridges not being destroyed. Two of these bridges were the temporary bridges ironically constructed by the US Army along with over 60 others.

"We just didn't have the manpower or communications to get the job done." stated a Major who would not identify himself. Reports pour in of Soviet tanks lined up like "on parade" crossing the Rhine.

The Soviet leaderships stated goal of preventing the B29 Super Fortress bomber from being based in Western Germany has long since been shown to be an excuse for the blatant conquest of Western Europe. The base was overrun the fist day of the surprise attack and yet the Red Army has continued to slaughter innocent non-combatants in it's quest for what appears to be world dominance.
  #109  
Old 14 Nov 10, 19:47
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June 3:

A US Naval carrier task force showed up off Vladvostok several days ago and has now reported sinking all major naval units of the Soviet fleet in the Pacific. US Navy official sources say that the cruisers Kalinin and Kaganovich were sunk in harbor along with various smaller fleet units.
Following several days of attacks on Vladvostok, the task force also attacked targets in the Kurile Islands and on Sakalin Island. There is speculation that this is a prelude to an amphibious invasion of these Soviet islands. US losses were said to be very light.
Sakalin Island is a major source of Russian oil production and its loss would greatly hurt Soviet operations elsewhere.
  #110  
Old 14 Nov 10, 22:36
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This could be a nice addition T.A.

Just a couple of suggestions. Do you really think the US could put together such a raid in less than a month? I suggest we move this to the near future. This could well be a major moral booster like Doolittle's raid.

Very good response for the US to make.

I'm not that familiar with Sakalin Island as a large producer of oil in 1946. The only figures I could find said that it produced about 695,000 metric tons in 1945. Is my math correct this represents about 3% of the oil used by the Soviets in 1945? I hate the different measurements. Metric tons, gallons, barrels yuk. I could very easily have made a mistake.
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  #111  
Old 14 Nov 10, 22:41
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Capitalist Exploit German Workers
Victorious Red Army units find slave labor camps
Pravda
June 3rd, 1946

Units of the 3rd Shock Army liberated a slave labor camp outside of Urmitz, United Germany. Rumors of Capitalist atrocities and the exploitation of European workers have been shown to be true. The camp was filled with "starving wretches chained to Yankee and Limey machines of profit." according to the disgusted liberators. We must push on and free the workers of the world from such cruel depredations perpetrated for profit.

Even the uneducated among us can understand what has happened and how the cruel Capitalist pigs have used war to further their thirst for power and gold. Workers of the world must unite with the Soviet government and Red Army to throw off the yoke of exploitation.

We urge the unwitting stooges and lackeys of the Capitalism to lay down their arms and join us in a glorious workers revolt against your oppressors
Workers of the world unite!
  #112  
Old 14 Nov 10, 23:10
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That's about right. It may be more as production rose steadly from about 1938 on. Sakalin also produces coal. Most importantly, the US having maritime control of the region cripples the Soviet fishing industry. This represents a loss of about half a million tons of fish and marine food per year. This is a very significant problem as it will reduce food for not only the region but the whole of Russia as most of this is shipped elsewhere.
The oil loss will force the Soviets to ship oil by rail from the Caspian region to sustain industry throughout the Far East and Siberia. This represents a double blow as it removes rail tank cars from other service and diverts oil from the Caspian to those regions at great expense.

As for a carrier strike the US Navy continued to operate carriers and carrier air wings through this whole period. It would have been easily possible to send 3 or 4 carriers each with upwards of 100 aircraft aboard for such a strike. The continued presence of at least some night attack ability would have made it possible for the initial strikes to be made by aircraft like the TBM using radar.
Given that the Soviets have zero radar capacity in the area, little maritime patrol capacity and, a weak fleet at best (2 light cruisers, a half dozen or so DD and smaller stuff) they are in no real position to deal with a carrier task force operating off their shore. In addition, the US can easily round up a Marine landing force of at least brigade strength from Okinawa and could have backed that with additional troops from Japan and Hawaii or the US in under a month for a landing.
While this would have been somewhat slapped together, the Soviets don't have that much on Sakalin to defend it with. They would be cut off from any regular resupply with the loss of their shipping and would be facing both naval gunfire support and air support that would make a big difference in ground operations.
The Southern half of Sakalin was Japanese controlled up to 1945 so it will not only not have good defenses against a sea invasion but, the population will be very likely to be less hostile to US forces than Soviet ones.
A loss of Sakalin also means the US now has a basing location that can effectively allow their air power to disrupt the entire Siberian - Far East rail net of the Soviets. This would mean a major disruption of shipments of coal and ore products that are vital to many Russian industries outside the region.

For the Pacific fleet this operation would represent its major, if not only, use so as the fleet activated more and more naval forces would become available along with masses of troops that could be far more readily shipped to the region by sea than the Soviets could manage by train; particularly if the US started bombing the trans-Siberian rail line from Japan or China.
  #113  
Old 15 Nov 10, 06:39
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Here is an angle pertaining to the Asian side of things.

June 3rd 1946
AAP report from Peking.

Reports are coming in that a major battle has ended and that General Chang Kai Shek and his Nationalist Chinese Army has severely damaged the Communist Chinese forces of Mao Zedong. Mao Zedong was fatally wounded and all reports that the Communist Chinese forces have lost the will to fight, thousands are surrendering, starvation is rife as well as outbreaks of disease amongst the Communist forces.

General Douglas MacArthur congratulates General Chang Kai Shek for his victory.

I have taken out the other dates.

Last edited by Roddoss72; 15 Nov 10 at 23:47..
  #114  
Old 15 Nov 10, 18:15
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Having just thumbed through the videos made by this person, I suggest two changes to be made;

1) Learn English. If you can't spell and punctuate, your first duty is to learn.

2) Learn to tell the difference between a Lancaster and a Liberator, the June 7th video obviously can't.

You may be able to spin a good yarn, but if you can't spell and differentiate between homonyms, you'll never prove it. ( 'Shear,' means to cut, 'Sheer,' means pure.)
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  #115  
Old 15 Nov 10, 21:22
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Whoa guys we can't be moving the timeline this fast. One day at a time. If you could I would appreciate it if you didn't get ahead of the dates in my posts.

Again if you don't like what's going on and figure you have a better story to tell go ahead and start your own timeline from this point or any point in the future.

What I was hoping to happen was a collaborative effort where I develop the basic timeline and others fill in the details and come up with entertaining and compelling stories and even major events that would catch the readerís imagination. But we have to have a single universe to work in and just can't be throwing bombs around without talking about it first...

Ö unless of course it's me doing it. I do claim the right to come up with twists and turns, surprises and mind bending alternatives. I did start this post after all and think I should be able to have some creative control or am I way off base here and don't know the rules?

Again if you feel you have a better story go ahead and tell it in your own post. Otherwise I would appreciate it if you could PM me with your ideas so I can see if they fit in with the basic outline I have in mind.

Quote:
Having just thumbed through the videos made by this person, I suggest two changes to be made;

1) Learn English. If you can't spell and punctuate, your first duty is to learn.

2) Learn to tell the difference between a Lancaster and a Liberator, the June 7th video obviously can't.

You may be able to spin a good yarn, but if you can't spell and differentiate between homonyms, you'll never prove it. ( 'Shear,' means to cut, 'Sheer,' means pure.)
No offense and I really mean no offense when I write the following.

I was wondering how long it would take for some anal retentive English major to show up.

As I have already told you I am not a writer and I can't spell. Never could spell and never will be able to. Just as some people "can't do math", and others fail at logic, I can't spell or properly use grammar. Spelling and grammar in the English language are not logical and have to be memorized. I can't memorize so I have to rely on logic. In my opinion spelling and grammar are the reasons why they invented computers, secretaries, proof readers and anal retentive English majors. So that they can do their thing and leave the rest of us along.

the ace, I offer you a job as my proof reader. If you decline then I will continue to misspell and mango the anguish languish from time to time as I have much more fun and entertaining things to do than to waste time sweating over and constantly re-reading something I'm doing as a hobby.

Remember the very wise old saying ďThose who live in glass houses, shouldnít throw stonesĒ. You have some interesting miss-spellings yourself. I just looked at some posts by ďthis personĒ and well you catch my drift.

In criticising others you have ysed in the prduction of those posts some unusual spellings and should come to the realisation that all of us canít spell and who gives a flying fig and what the heck does nicled mean?


The spelling errors in the previous sentence are by "this person" not me.

There are many others but I think some are British English and the computer sees them as spelling errors when in fact they are not. But then again I can't spell and who cares anyway.

I looked at my postings and writings in this and mostly other venues and I've typed over 500,000 words on this project. If a bunch of spelling errors and have snuck through. I really donít give a ratís ass. I guarantee I will make many more such errors and if it bothers you than stop reading.

Did "this person" like the videos by the way? There is no spell checker in the program I had to use so again Iím sorry for the errors.

There is no Lancaster in the flight simulator IL2 1946 so I had to use the Liberator for the video or not do the video. You will notice many odd things that are endemic to the way IL2 1946 records playbacks. Trucks will run into each other and the planes will make some weird hops and jumps every once in awhile but itís the best I can do. Again just ignore the videos if you donít like them.

Last edited by hairog; 15 Nov 10 at 21:39..
  #116  
Old 15 Nov 10, 22:16
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June 3rd, 1946
London

Come in Walter, come in. What can I do for you?

Thank you for seeing me Carl. I know you're a busy man.

So what have you brought me?

Well take a look at this chocolate bar and tell me what you see.

Looks pretty ordinary to me. The wrapper is obviously poorly made Russian paper. Can I open it?

Of course.

The chocolate looks like it's been melted just enough to hide the lettering. Why... this is just Hershey's chocolate make to look like some Soviet product. Are they really that desperate?

That's right they are taking our supplies and making it look like they are made in the Soviet Union. They are doing the same with cigarettes and even Spam. They are actually opening the cans of Spam and re-canning it.

Why those sneaky sons of bitches.

This stuff is flooding the Soviet market places. They are stripping the territory they invaded of every consumer item they can find and repackaging it to make it look like it's made in the mother land. From the other reports we seen they're using our supplies to augment the Lend Lease equipment we have already given them.

What are they doing with the C-Rations?

They're giving them to the soldiers. They're not even hiding that. I guess it tastes so bad they don't care if the folks back home know where it came from. The spoils of war etc..

It's like a plague of locusts.
  #117  
Old 15 Nov 10, 22:20
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June 4

35 B-29 oblitherate the rail yards at Khbarovsk in a late daytime raid. Soviet VVS fighter aircraft attempt a late interception as the bombers arrived over their target. But, as the aircraft were flying at between 25,000 and 30,000 feet they were unable to make a timely interception. A few VVS fighters did manage a single pass on the US bombers causing some damage but failed to shoot any down. One Soviet fighter was lost to defensive fire.

Stalin is informed that rail movement out of the Soviet Far East has come to a stand still for at least 72 hours and restoration of regular rail service will take several weeks at a minimum.
The resulting loss of shipments will put a minor crimp in industries using Iron and coal products that are now sitting awaiting restoration of the rail lines.

US carrier aircraft completely destroyed the naval facilities at Nevelsk meeting only minor oppostion from the few AA guns available and what minor naval units were present. A number of freighters were sunk in addition to the naval units. The port and naval facilites are in ruins after a number of US carrier strikes.

Additional strikes have occured against Vladivostok as well. The a number of fishing and merchant vessels were sunk or damaged in the raids. Both the USN and VVS have lost a number of aircraft with both sides having about 20 planes downed or damaged. The VVS is telling Moscow they shot down in excess of 90 US planes.
A Soviet air strike using available IL 4 bombers met with disaster trying to strike the carriers using torpedoes. The 24 plane strike was shot down with 100% losses to both US gunfire and F8F and F4U interceptors. The local Soviets have no report on US losses but told Moscow a carrier was sunk.
More worrying, the refrigeration and fish packing plants took considerable damage along with the ship yards. While the later is largely superficial, officials say the refrigeration plants will be out of operation for months effectively shutting down the fish packing and processing plants until repaired.
  #118  
Old 15 Nov 10, 22:36
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June 4 - 5

250 RAF Lincoln and Lancaster bombers strike Leningrad just after midnight. Heavy jamming threw the AA defenses into chaos rendering them all but ineffective. The VVS was unable to make any interceptions. The bombers scattered a combinaton of HE and incendary bombs on the city causing damage along with several serious fires that took hours to control.
Leningrad officials and military defense units braced for more attacks.
The RAF is reporting to their command one bomber was lost most likely due to non-combat related mechanical problems.

The RAF plans additional strikes nightly and is flying in more Australian and New Zealand bombers to beef up the attacks. The hope is by late June to mount a 1000 bomber raid for publicity reasons.

Stalin is enraged that the VVS proved so ineffective versus this raid. The local air defense commander is sacked and replaced. The VVS is at a loss as to what to do. The jamming they experianced is unlike anything they have ever seen. Questioning of ex-Luftwaffe personnel has only resulted in a combination of uncertainty and dread among air defense officials who believe that the RAF is likely unstoppable at night for the forseeable future.

An RAF Mosquito strike against Murmansk also occured the aircraft came in at very low level without warning and bombed and strafed naval units resulting in the loss of several ships and damage to a number more in the harbor. It is suspected that these aircraft flew out of Norwegean bases built by the Luftwaffe during the last war.
  #119  
Old 16 Nov 10, 00:18
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June 5th 1946

Asia

Fresh from his victory over the Communist Chinese forces, General Chang Kai Shek receives a delegation representing US/British and Australian diplomats and Supreme Commander of the Pacific Theatre General Douglus MacArthur.

22.00 hrs after exhaustive talks The Nationalist Chinese Government signs a formal alliance with the Allies. 22.30hrs USA/Britain and Australia agree to a Lend Lease deal with Nationalist China, Nationalist China will pay for the incoming war materiel with agricultural products, in lue of hard currency.

23.45hrs Nationalist Chinese leader General Chang Kai Shek officially declares war on The Soviet Union and orders that the Army be fully mobilised and sent north.

Great Britain

USAAF begin to redeploy the 8th Air Force into Britain with the arrival of 180B-17's of the 1st Air Division and 130 B-24's of the 2nd Air Division it is expected that by the 21st there is to a further 2,000 bombers representing 40 Bomber Groups will be deployed, it is expected that after re-equiping with 250 B-29's the 3rd Bomber Division will arrive later in the month.

Last edited by Roddoss72; 16 Nov 10 at 00:32..
  #120  
Old 16 Nov 10, 00:25
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T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roddoss72 View Post
June 5th 1946

Asia

Fresh from his victory of Communist Chinese forces, General Chang Kai Shek receives a delegation representing US/British and Australian diplomats and Leading the delegation is General Douglus MacArthur.

22.00 hrs after exhaustive talks The Nationalist Chinese Government signs a formal alliance with the Allies. 22.30hrs USA/Britain and Australia agree to a Lend Lease deal with Nationalist China, Nationalist China will pay for the incoming war materiel with agricultural products, in lue of hard currency.

23.45hrs Nationalist Chinese leader General Chang Kai Shek officially declares war on The Soviet Union and orders that the Army be fully mobilised and sent north.
Portions of the US 24th Division land in Shang hi on this day. An Australian division is enroute to Hong Kong. General "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell arrives back in China to command the 1st Chinese Army still equipped with US material that he trained and led in WW 2....

Reconnissance elements of the 24th Division land at Seoul Korea in advance of US forces reinforcing that nation....
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