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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

View Poll Results: Which is superior?
M1A2 12 40.00%
Challenger II 18 60.00%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04 Oct 10, 16:34
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M1A2 vs Challenger II

I'm sure there have been threads with the exact same title before, but I want to see 1st hand, what people's opinions are regarding which one is the superior MBT, and perhaps the best in the world. Although the Leopard II might have say something about that. But I just want to know which is superior.

I'd rather our Anglo-American members not vote, as they would be biased. But hey, my grandfather was a lead engineer on the development project for the A1. So I would be too.

So, which is superior, I'm talking purely the tech. I know American tankers might have more experience and they certainly have the numerical edge. USA's tank fleet would crush Britain's without a doubt, but which one is strictly better technologically?
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  #2  
Old 04 Oct 10, 16:48
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You are a complete bast*** for posting this thread!

How can one choose between two of the finest AFVs ever to see combat?

They are equals!
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Old 04 Oct 10, 17:07
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It is really academic as the US, UK, and Germany are allies and they share technology, so these tanks are simply very close designed to stem the tide of more numerous Soviet armor, not to fight each other. The Abrams for instance uses british armor and a german gun. The Leopard uses british armor also.

The reason they don't use the same tank is mostly political, not technological, even though Brits and Germans would not agree to a turbine engine 'cause of the gas guzzling characteristics.

It is also said that the British army would have accepted the Abrams, because tended to be a tad lighter and it has a German smooth bore gun, which is more efficient than the brit rifled gun in the Challenger, but the Brit government did not agree to it 'cause would have meant laying off a lot of people in their tank industry. At the end the Brits settled for a tank that has slightly less power/weight ratiio thant the Abrams and Leopards, but kept their people working.

The diff in performance in real world was not worth losing jobs.

Last edited by Hugojose; 04 Oct 10 at 17:22..
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Old 04 Oct 10, 17:15
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Being British i am slightly biased in this case, however, it does stand that no challenger 2 was ever lost to hostile fire (our own is another matter). Although even in that case, it was the commander having an open hatch to let a HESH round down that was the major flaw.

Not to mention that we've not lost a crew member to hostile fire either, considering what combat the vehicle has endured (including being struck by a MILAN ATGM)

And i did find that the much quoted RPG-29 damage was caused by the round bouncing off the roadway into the underside of the challenger (hence the driver losing toes)

The 120mm rifled gun issue is divisive, since at the time HESH rounds were very common and a rifled gun was more well known to the British armed forces at the time. Regardless, they are upgrading some of the fleet to the rhinemetal 120mm smooth bore standard.

However, the challenger being better protected is a generally accepted term in NATO, at least from what i have heard. This is probably due to the fact that compared to the US military, the UK has less troops to call upon and each tank and crewmember lost is a major event.

Mind, it is louder, but then again, you can fill it up from a truck stop if you need to!


Oh and it can make tea, so it wins hands down
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Old 04 Oct 10, 17:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasel_burger View Post
The 120mm rifled gun issue is divisive, since at the time HESH rounds were very common and a rifled gun was more well known to the British armed forces at the time. Regardless, they are upgrading some of the fleet to the rhinemetal 120mm smooth bore standard.
Bu that same rifled 120mm gun holds the record (is it official or unofficial?) for longest range kill.
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Old 04 Oct 10, 17:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer86g View Post
Bu that same rifled 120mm gun holds the record (is it official or unofficial?) for longest range kill.
I had heard that, but I had also heard that the M1A2 was capable of shooting further with a certain type of ammo, but it had yet to be combat tested.
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Old 08 Oct 10, 13:28
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Being British I would choose the Challenger 2. But in all fairness I really don't think there is much to choose between them. I don't know what THE best tank in the world is but I know what the best THREE tanks in the world are - Most definitely the Challenger 2, Abrams and Leo 2A6.

By the way to the guy who said they are "upgrading" the challenger's gun to the smoothbore, well they are not anymore. They trialled it but it caused all sorts of problems for the challenger and they would have to design a completely new turret to incorporate it. They are going to have to think of something though because ammo stocks for the L30A1 main gun are finite and will run out at some point. Furthermore I would appreciate it if you didn't class moving to the smoothbore as an "upgrade". Both guns have advatages and disadvantages over each other. The smoothbore is slightly more powerful but the rifled gun has a longer range and is more accurate.
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Old 09 Oct 10, 03:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
I had heard that, but I had also heard that the M1A2 was capable of shooting further with a certain type of ammo, but it had yet to be combat tested.
This (new) wouldn't be a type of rocket assisted or/companation of base bleed with a guidance system for in flight correction (more like guided missile) using a data link or independent (internal system) targeting.

(an improvement over the Ukrainian AGTW?)

Last edited by Tealo; 09 Oct 10 at 03:19..
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Old 09 Oct 10, 03:29
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Originally Posted by Tealo View Post
This (new) wouldn't be a type of rocket assisted or/companation of base bleed with a guidance system for in flight correction (more like guided missile) using a data link or independent (internal system) targeting.

(an improvement over the Ukrainian AGTW?)
Probably referring to MRM projectiles.. fire-and-forget capability with rannges in excess of 10km.
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Old 09 Oct 10, 13:54
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Originally Posted by kuma View Post
Probably referring to MRM projectiles.. fire-and-forget capability with rannges in excess of 10km.
Oh the system being developed by Raytheon.
Back to the thread it has to be the Challenger 2 mostly because of the better logistics (fuel consumption) and it's survivability seem's better than the Abrams (variants) in combat.
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Old 09 Oct 10, 20:22
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The thing is, any MBT fleet is going to need a a big logistical tail whether it be M1, Challenger or whatever. When you take into account the number of vehicles making up an armored brigae, division or army corps, logistical needws will vary very little from model to model.
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Old 09 Oct 10, 21:44
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apples and oranges

The m1 series of tank are defensive by way of that niosey turbine and the fact it is faster from 0 to 20mph so it can move from cover to cover shootin and scootin fast and getout of trouble fast,[ gas guzeler you bet] but when you fight a falling back defensive action as was antisipated in germany your supply line gets shorter so gallons per mile matter not.
The challenger and the leo with the 48L deisel get around 3miles to the gallon on hard going and 2mpg off road make them an offensive weapon that can penitrate farther into enemy areas and wait for resupply after the objective is won.I will go with the challenger 2 if I was a perchaseing agent only because the leo2a6 was not on the table.


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Old 10 Oct 10, 01:06
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Since when is the turbine considered noisy?
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You'll hear the track squeek before you'll hear the turbine.One nearly ran over my M151A2 jeep at Ft Hood when they were exercising the first M1's in 1982.the Lt Col i drive for was an evaluator and we were parked in some bushes at the time
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Old 10 Oct 10, 03:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugojose View Post
It is really academic as the US, UK, and Germany are allies and they share technology, so these tanks are simply very close designed to stem the tide of more numerous Soviet armor, not to fight each other. The Abrams for instance uses british armor and a german gun. The Leopard uses british armor also.
But not in the way you think.
We sold Chobham to the US, but we kept the Good stuff. So we get better protection from a lighter amount of armour. Hence why the US had to insert some DU into the armour and the M1 weighs in about 10-15 tons heavier (depending on whom you ask), despite the M1 having the lighter engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugojose View Post
The reason they don't use the same tank is mostly political, not technological, even though Brits and Germans would not agree to a turbine engine 'cause of the gas guzzling characteristics.

It is also said that the British army would have accepted the Abrams, because tended to be a tad lighter and it has a German smooth bore gun, which is more efficient than the brit rifled gun in the Challenger, [...]
Correct on the Turbine, however not all the rest is correct. While jobs may have been an issue. At the time the L11/L30 guns where better performers in Armour penetration. Its only the 08 120mm L55 currently employed on the M1 that pips the L30 in penetration. Plus at the Time the M1 had an appalling selection of ammunition, which had no HE ability. The L30 could lob HESH rounds down range.

However the 08 120mm still can't chuck a HE round.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasel_burger View Post
[...]it does stand that no challenger 2 was ever lost to hostile fire (our own is another matter).

Not to mention that we've not lost a crew member to hostile fire either, considering what combat the vehicle has endured (including being struck by a MILAN ATGM)

And i did find that the much quoted RPG-29 damage was caused by the round bouncing off the roadway into the underside of the challenger (hence the driver losing toes)
How does a HEAT warhead bounce? It went through the front armour. and by Toes, I think you mean "legs", which I grant you includes the "toes" as well...
One was also lost one to a massive IED shaped charge, again the Driver lost his legs.
I go into more detail about the Loses suffered by Challenger 2's in this post. It includes sources of information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasel_burger View Post
they are upgrading some of the fleet to the rhinemetal 120mm smooth bore standard.

[...]
Oh and it can make tea, so it wins hands down
I'll come onto CLIP shortly.
And yes it can make tea. There's a story (I spoke to the guy involved) he is a US tanker and was on an Exchange with his British counterparts. Looking over the plans of the Turret he saw the space for the BV, and started asking questions about what that was. For the rest of his visit the tankers strung him along saying it was the most important and top secret item in the tanks, and no he wasn't allowed to see it.
Eventually on his last day they took pity on him and told him what the mysterious "BV" was.

US Tanks are now fitted with a BV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer86g View Post
Bu that same rifled 120mm gun holds the record (is it official or unofficial?) for longest range kill.
Yup, Challenger 1, 1991, moving T-55 at 5.8KM, with a HESH round. First round hit. The story goes that the Crew saw the Tank pulling away from its berm, Lazed it, and the Gunner "asked Do you reckon I can hit that?".
"no way in hell!" was the TC's reply.
The Gunner misheard and fired, the rest is history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildmorgan View Post
By the way to the guy who said they are "upgrading" the challenger's gun to the smoothbore, well they are not anymore. They trialled it but it caused all sorts of problems for the challenger and they would have to design a completely new turret to incorporate it.
Right CLIP ( Challenger lethality improvement Program). Was an upgrade program that included a RWS with a GMG in it, for local area defence, as well as a Smoothbore. The first issue was hte German Smoothbore is Bloody massive! while you might be able to fit it into a Challenger turret, getting the Crew in and giving the Gun somewhere to re-coil would be impossible. So they mated a 120mm Smoothbore barrel to the L30 gun. One of the issues they encountered was that it caused massive shock waves and it blew out all the near by windows when fired. They have since fixed that and all other issues. So its working. However The Ammunition is the problem. All our Ammo goes out the Gun barrel (apart from the .50 cartridge). The Smoothbore gun has a shell casing, which would need to be dealt with. And New ammo storage bins would need to be designed.

Now onto some other factors, ammo type.
The Big Difference is HESH vs HEAT. Well HESH makes a decent HEAT style round, and a very good HE round (as many flocks of Sheep at Lulworth cove have found out). HEAT makes a Great HEAT round but a shite HE round.
Take for instance the direct impact of the HESH round. There was an area of Iraq which had a very active and advanced IED planting campaign targeted against the British forces. It was causing a large number of Casulties, on this single road. So One night a Chalenger was parked on ah ill over looking the road. During hte night about 8 Individuals where spotted planting an IED.
The Challenger Landed a HESH round in the middle of the group without warning, and suddenly the road became several orders of magnitude safer. an M1 couldn't pull that off.

Also we have the "Funny rounds" category to consider. The US Turned their 120mm's into giant Shotguns. We had ours firing Dum-dum bullets! Allow me to explain. The Challenger 2 crews in Iraq started carrying a HESH practice round. This is a normal HESH round with the HE filler replaced by an Oil/water mix to get the same weight and flight characteristics. It rapidly became one of the more common rounds carried in Iraq. Why? Because it was found that a HESH-Practice round arriving in the same room as Terry tended to rather spoil his day, and didn't take out half the neighbour hood like a fully grown up HESH round would.

Here's a previous post on the subject.


And finally some silliness:
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