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Warfare Through the Ages Roman, Greek, Japanese, etc. Topics cover all manner of pre-modern warfare and empire-building and crushing.

View Poll Results: Who is the better general and military leader?
Alexander the Great 11 37.93%
Genghis Kahn 18 62.07%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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  #76  
Old 04 Aug 10, 04:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Alexander did not just add sections to his army but did proactively and continually enhance elements of his army. He was in the process of adding Persian missilemen to the Phallanx and had already inducted the Prodromi/Sarrisophoroi into the Companions. He did add auxillaries as and when required, but that is a sign of a good general .
Yes, that would have made the phalanx a formidable opponent to any missile armed troops.


Quote:
Most of this territory (at the time of his death) was not worth fighting over. However, much of it was.
And Alexanders conquests:



For my money, Alexander would win if Ghengis had anything critical to defend.

Last edited by Gooner; 04 Aug 10 at 04:48..
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  #77  
Old 04 Aug 10, 09:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

Alexander did not just add sections to his army but did proactively and continually enhance elements of his army. He was in the process of adding Persian missilemen to the Phallanx and had already inducted the Prodromi/Sarrisophoroi into the Companions. He did add auxillaries as and when required, but that is a sign of a good general .
I understand your argument. However, Alexander already had an intact army that he added elements to make it better. Genghis Khan also did the same thing with Chinese infantry, engineers, medical corps, bridge builders, etc.

What separates the two is that Genghis had to build his initial army from scratch. In addition, Genghis had to find and train his generals from scratch as well. Alexander already had an intact army and experience generals (Parmenio) with when he ascended the Macedonian throne.

Quote:
Most of this territory (at the time of his death) was not worth fighting over. However, much of it was.
The territory he captured is right smack in the middle of the Silk Road, the most valuable trade route before the Age of Sail. How is that not worth fighting over?

Quote:
And its 0.5% not 5% of the worlds population that may be directly descended from him.
The 0.5 percent include only males with direct Y-Chromosone ancestry (unbroken father to son lineage). These males clearly have sisters and brothers who did not have a son and still pass his genes. So 5 percent is a conservative estimate.

Quote:
However, that may make Ghengis better with the ladies .
He clearly knew what was the best in life.
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  #78  
Old 04 Aug 10, 10:03
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
He clearly knew what was the best in life.
This I can agree on , so I'll leave it there, even though you're wrong on who is better leader or general .
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  #79  
Old 04 Aug 10, 16:43
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Here is an excellent essay by the US Army's War College about Genghis Khan and the employment of maneuver warfare.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...c=GetTRDoc.pdf
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  #80  
Old 04 Aug 10, 23:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
The 0.5 percent include only males with direct Y-Chromosone ancestry (unbroken father to son lineage). These males clearly have sisters and brothers who did not have a son and still pass his genes. So 5 percent is a conservative estimate.
He clearly knew what was the best in life.
I seriously doubt it could be "directly" descended from him. I always thought the 5% figure, if credible, referred to descended from the entire Mongolian line.

I'm going to throw a wild one out there and say Subotai was a better tactician than Genghis Khan.
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  #81  
Old 05 Aug 10, 00:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
I seriously doubt it could be "directly" descended from him. I always thought the 5% figure, if credible, referred to descended from the entire Mongolian line.
If it is Y chromosome, its a direct paternal line (passed from father to sons).

He didn't do all by himself. He had 4 sons that we know of and each of them had there own harems.

Quote:
I'm going to throw a wild one out there and say Subotai was a better tactician than Genghis Khan.
I agree. Subutai was his best general. His campaign against Russia and Eastern Europe rivaled that of Genghis Khan's campaign in Persia and Jin.

Last edited by IDonT4; 05 Aug 10 at 00:04..
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  #82  
Old 05 Aug 10, 19:20
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I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Alexander found it a lot harder to conquer India than he'd previously thought. The Indian forces fought in a way that's quite alien to Alexander and his men, and so, together with other practical factors, he turned back his army....

What exactly happened in India??
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  #83  
Old 05 Aug 10, 23:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
If it is Y chromosome, its a direct paternal line (passed from father to sons).

He didn't do all by himself. He had 4 sons that we know of and each of them had there own harems.
Although whether or not Jochi was really the son of Genghis has always been questioned by the tribes and historians.
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  #84  
Old 06 Aug 10, 00:33
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Originally Posted by Marcarl View Post
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Alexander found it a lot harder to conquer India than he'd previously thought. The Indian forces fought in a way that's quite alien to Alexander and his men, and so, together with other practical factors, he turned back his army....

What exactly happened in India??
Alexander never conquered India. He defeated Porus, a minor Indian king of a small kingdom in what is now modern day Pakistan. His men were greatly disheartened and were on the verge of mutiny when they heard the "larger" Indian kingdoms had thousands of war elephants.
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  #85  
Old 06 Aug 10, 08:43
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Remember Alexander died well before his time at a young age. His time on the world stage of conquerors was very short. How much larger a territory could he have conquered if he had lived longer? Would it have been comparable in land area to the mongols? I think too if Alexander was defeated in a battle by the Mongols it wouldnt be the end. Being a Greek and fighting in the western way of making war often meant more determination to win the war whatever the cost even after countless defeats. Ability to change tactics and evolve to counter you enemies strengths was often employed by western armies.
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  #86  
Old 06 Aug 10, 09:01
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Remember Alexander died well before his time at a young age. His time on the world stage of conquerors was very short. How much larger a territory could he have conquered if he had lived longer? Would it have been comparable in land area to the mongols? I think too if Alexander was defeated in a battle by the Mongols it wouldnt be the end. Being a Greek and fighting in the western way of making war often meant more determination to win the war whatever the cost even after countless defeats. Ability to change tactics and evolve to counter you enemies strengths was often employed by western armies.
The western way of war and the eastern way of war is a myth. Each society ultimately comes up with similar developments to warfare (see pike and shot tactics in both Europe and Japan). The difference is when these development occurs, which is a function of outside stimuli. Those that are forced to continually adapt are more likely to come up with new methods of warfare thus creating a revolution in military affairs (RMA).

If Alexander is defeated in a major decisive battle. He will never get a second chance. Genghis Khan will send his best generals to hunt him down to stop him from rallying another army. Stepped pursuit tactics, in addition to being very fast, are very methodical and unrelenting.
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  #87  
Old 06 Aug 10, 09:04
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Although whether or not Jochi was really the son of Genghis has always been questioned by the tribes and historians.
Jochi's paternity was always in question because Borte was kidnapped by rival tribes and raped. He was never in contention to succeed Genghis Khan. Also, only the children of Borte (Genghis first wife) were considered Mongolian nobility with its hereditary rights. His other sons from his many concubines were considered commoners.
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  #88  
Old 07 Aug 10, 01:05
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Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
Jochi's paternity was always in question because Borte was kidnapped by rival tribes and raped. He was never in contention to succeed Genghis Khan. Also, only the children of Borte (Genghis first wife) were considered Mongolian nobility with its hereditary rights. His other sons from his many concubines were considered commoners.
Genghis himself assured the tribes that Jochi was his. While Jochi lived, no one but Chagatai dared to openly challenge his birth status. Jochi's lack of contention was not due his birth, but rather because he did not match the military prowess of Chagatai and Ogadai(Ogedei). Jochi first born and Chagatai second born were always at odd. Genghis may have chosen Ogadai third born simply for no less reason than to a civil war. Ogadai was Borte's favorite, the first son born when Genghis was supreme.
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  #89  
Old 07 Aug 10, 05:38
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OK, let's look at it this way:

Both connected the east and west in ways that no one else had before.

Both led the most advanced and disciplined armies of their time.

Both relied on harsh regimen, strong charisma and sheer will to accomplish what they wanted.

Both were responsible for horrible wartime atrocities and massacres (don't deny it, Alexander fans).

Both learned and accumulated knowledge and/or technology from the civilizations they conquered.

Both lead their armies farther than any before them (though only Alexander's began to mutiny after they had been pushed to far)

Alexander inherited the legacy of his father, who had entwined the Macedonian and Greek identity and made revolutionary strides in the use of the phalanx and companion cavalry. Alexander, however, proved himself to be a more than capable leader many times over, and sought to rule a world not divided by east and west, but united through shared cultures.

Chingiss Khan was once an outcast and slave who not only united the Mongol tribes and created the disiplined toumen military system, but also instituted the Great Yasa (the universal Mongol Code of Laws) and the first Mongol written language.

The empire of Alexander fell apart the minute he died, with his generals immediately fighting each other for dominance in wars that lasted for decades.

After Chingiss died, his sons and grandsons continued to expand the empire, so that by 1297 it extended from the Ukraine to Vietnam. Even after the empire began to fracture after 1260, the different regions remained in power until the early 1300's, and certain regions (i.e. the Golden Horde) continued to survive until the 15th and 16th Centuries. The Mongols even enjoyed a brief resurgence of power under Tamerlane, and both he and Chingiss' descendents went on to found the Mughal dynasty in India.

So legacy wise, Alexander gets good PR, but it's Chingiss who delivers the goods, even if he and his descendants didn't endear themselves to everyone they conquered.
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Old 07 Aug 10, 12:07
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Just when you think you can walk away from a thread you are drawn back in .

Alexander defeated enemies by tactical genius and then made them his friends. That is a mark of a great leader.

Like many before and after Genghis created a unified set of laws and practises to make it easier to govern. That does not make him great, but it does make him smart.

Alexanders army mutinied for several reasons, but only because they most wanted to go home. The summer campaign was the norm for Greeks and similar cultures. Nomads don't have that problem. The clue is in the name.

Alexander left no family legacy as such as he died young. However, his legacy was such that centuries later city states in the middle east were still upholding those same meged Persian/Hellenistic traditions. This was why Mithradates was able to continually create new armies in C1st.

Hopefully my last word. You simply cannot compare warcrimes by Alexander with that of Genghis. It's like comparing Napoleon with Stalin. I'll let you guess which refers to which.
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