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  #1  
Old 24 Mar 10, 15:39
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What IS the mind?

I'm not actually specifically indicating the 'soul' but I am not writing it out of the discussion either.

I am not specifically looking for explanations of electro-biochemical activity although feel free to mention them.

But that part of us, that allows us to say 'I think, therefore I am', what IS that part of us?

My current field of interest, is does our mind truly possess gender?

I ask, because while a male body is clearly male, and a female can't escape her female qualities much, we clearly have a lot of men that don't feel like being men, and ladies that for some reason think they are men trapped in their female bodies.

Given that some of us think there is something beyond our easily observable organic existence, what is there to state this 'something' has to be limited by our need to be either male or female? Because this 'something' is clearly not expected to be limited to a merely corporeal bodily existence.

I was born male, but I am plenty sure there is plenty of my mind that is not entirely cliche. I don't think a person can use a knife though, and change who they are. Well the thing is, I think who we are is not based on what's between our legs.

Lately I have been going just a bit mental trying to understand just who the heck I actually am
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Old 24 Mar 10, 16:08
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That is the question throughout psychology and no one has the real answer.
Freud originally thought it to be a chemical process but late in his life he discovered that he had been wrong and that our personality is developed by the taking in of good and bad objects into our subconscious.

According to Freud, it all comes down to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex

This is from my last psychology paper:

As the child becomes aware of their sexuality, they begin their oedipal development. In boys, this begins with a change in the perception of the mother as a sexual interest rather than a caregiver. This leads to the realization that his father stands in the way of his desire and later develops into envy of the father as a rival. He still loves his father but fears him as a castrating threat. He accepts that he cannot be with the mother and thus experiences loss. This is described as a positive Oedipus complex: mother is the object choice while the father is the rival, and results in a successful resolution of the Oedipus complex. The alternative to this is that the boy rationalizes that if he could be loved sexually by the father, he need not fear castration at his hand, and thus avoids loss. This is a negative Oedipus complex: father is object choice while the mother is feared, and often results in homosexuality. As girls become aware of their sexuality, they also enter into the Oedipus stage but their resolution is more convoluted than boys. At first, the girl acts much like a boy and takes the mother as a love interest but as she grows older she switches her interest to the father. Even though she holds her father as a love interest and her mother as a rival, she still identifies with her mother. Girls experience loss at the realization that they do not have, nor will they have, a penis.

Our development hinges on the successful resolution of the Complex and our ability to deal with the loss of the mother. Failure to deal with this loss results in separation anxiety and personality disorders later in life.

From another of my papers:

Freud begins his description of personality development explaining the three levels of consciousness: Conscious, pre-conscious, and unconscious. Conscious thoughts are our inner dialogue and actual thoughts. The pre-conscious contains distant memories that can be exposed through concentration. Our unconscious contains desires, fantasies, emotions, and repressed memories. Freud described his model of the mind as the Id, Ego, and Super-ego. The Id is unconscious and controls our instinctual desires of sex and aggression. It is centered upon what will give us the most immediate pleasure while avoiding pain. It lacks structure, organization, and is based entirely upon impulses with no regard to logic or reason.
The Super-ego is the result of a successful resolution of the Oedipus complex and is made up of the values and ideals of the parents. It exists in the conscious, unconscious, and preconscious. It acts directly opposed to the Id in that it strives to work within societies rules, gives us a sense of right and wrong, and creates guilt accordingly.
The Ego acts as the moderator between the Id and Super-ego. It seeks to bring reality and reason into the picture while allowing some of the impulses of the Id, when appropriate. Its primary purpose is to find a balance between the irrational impulses of the Id and the rules and regulations of the Super-ego. Defensive mechanisms such as denial, undoing, and projection reside in the Ego and present themselves when guilt is applied by the Super-ego. When the Ego is unable to control the Id, a neurotic conflict results and creates anxiety.
The anxiety from the Id/Ego/Super-ego conflict triggers defensive mechanisms as a way of avoiding a bad situation and satisfying the Id and Super-ego through a false sense of satisfaction. Repression, denial, and rationalization are examples of defensive mechanisms that serve to distort reality in order to placate the Id or Super-Ego. Freud believed that repression was the primary defensive mechanism used by the Ego.
Freud also believed that there were five stages of psychosexual development. The first is the oral stage in which infants are weaned from the bottle or breast. The second is the anal stage where toilet training is learned. Thirdly, the phallic stage which entails the successful resolution of the Oedipus complex. The fourth is the latency stage which is a period where sexual development is dormant. The final and fifth stage is the genital stage, which leads us to have meaningful relationships with the opposite sex. If a person has difficulty with one of these stages, they may become fixated and unable to progress to the subsequent stage. During times of stress, stages that presented difficulties to individuals may be regressed back to.
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Old 24 Mar 10, 16:20
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I never much liked Freud
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Old 24 Mar 10, 21:52
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If you want the short answer: everything we do is driven by of sex and aggression. Aggresion is the natural tenancy of humans and our sexuality defines who we are but is intertwined with our relations with others.
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Old 24 Mar 10, 23:57
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I'd rather you were wrong. Not saying you are, just wish you were.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 10:00
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Was hoping for some more replies

No offense Freightshaker, but what I have to say about a large swath of 'professional psychiatry' would likely get me a 3 day ban somehow

I think Freud is the only one that had a problem with his mother.

I've never felt interested in either my mother or my father. My sister was no help to me, but hey no teen boy is going to be able to have entirely pure thoughts when his drop dead gorgeous little sister walks by in a partially closed button up shirt and panties (she's 2 years younger than me). I've watched guys drool looking at her when we were in high school. She's single by choice.

I personally think a lot of what Freud had to say, was as useful as what a lot of Creationists have too say. Too focused on what they want to hear.

It's morning here, and guess what, I can't hear the feminine side at all. IT wants my wife's bare ass. There's no feminine side in the morning.
My feminine side (oddly enough like most actual women) prefers the evening.

I've read all the conscious unconscious Id ego super ego writings I can stomache mostly. I think too much of that crud originates from the 19th century before our science had reached a point where it was useful.

I still marvel at how I am older than some forms of scientific knowledge (makes me feel a bit old though). I predate proper understanding of Plate Tectonics. It was fun reading about that as that science was revealed.

Back to discussing the mind.

I am not a full on proponent of reincarnation, but, it's a jumping off point.
How precisely do we explain a kid, that remembers being a WW2 pilot, who knows people he can't have known, who remembers things he can't have experienced?
How is it possible?

How does the religious camp explain it?
Appears someone has died, and managed to get out of wherever it is we go according to them. I thought according to them it was a one way trip.

And it's not like I require oodles of examples of past life that are at least not as phoney as the day is long. Just one will do. Granted the science community won't be happy with a once only unrepeatable example. But I have never made it a priority to stake everything on science either. They ARE wrong occasionally.

Why the focus on all this 'mind stuff from the reincarnation angle? Simple.
It makes it appear, that our 'mind' is not entirely limited to the realm of simple biology. And if that IS the case, then purely biological explanations are not good enough.

At which point Freud can shut up about his mother

I AM a guy, 100% of the day. Unavoidable. Well at the biological level.
I reserve the right though to ponder 'is the mind limited by gender?'.
Remember, gender is a strictly biological limitation.

I don't feel male, nor female, nor homosexual, nor bisexual, nor non sexual at the mental level.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 10:21
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Psychology is definitely not a science. There are at least 7 different schools of thought on how the mind works. Freud worked for decades to prove that emotion was just a chemical process. He failed.

Freud's use of Oedipus isn't meant to be taken literally but it is the easiest way to convey the concept.

A child's relationship with it's mother is much the same as an adult sexual relationship. The child and mother convey feeling to each other in a physical way.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 19:39
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You duck one discussion, only to begin one even more controversial?

You must have a lot of time on your hands, Les.

The mind is a couple of pounds of jello that uses a small electrical charge to get you to do something. Beyond that, nobody knows anything about the deeper issues, like why your are you and I am me.

Maybe it's best that we don;t know, or surely some "researcher" would be tampering with that, too.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 19:55
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What can I say Mountain Man

The freaks think I have a 'dangerous' obsession with school girls, when in reality, I merely think it would be nice to be one in my next life

But when you consider that EVERY single person that has ever angered me (especially online), has been an old man, it's easy to see why I am not overly fond of being one of them.

The complex problem is that I do NOT like guys 'in that way'. Don't much like being one (not that I have a choice). I have often joked, am I really just a lesbian trapped in a man?

I wonder what Freud would do with that?
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Old 25 Mar 10, 22:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les Brains View Post
What can I say Mountain Man

The freaks think I have a 'dangerous' obsession with school girls, when in reality, I merely think it would be nice to be one in my next life

But when you consider that EVERY single person that has ever angered me (especially online), has been an old man, it's easy to see why I am not overly fond of being one of them.

The complex problem is that I do NOT like guys 'in that way'. Don't much like being one (not that I have a choice). I have often joked, am I really just a lesbian trapped in a man?

I wonder what Freud would do with that?
Freud would say that the school girl obsession is a perversion caused by poor object relations but gender identity issues are a full blown mental disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perversion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
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Old 25 Mar 10, 22:44
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Well coming from a pervert that had mommy issues (Freud) I think we can just ditch his thoughts in the round file where they belong.

"poor object relations" sounds like a person trying to have sex with 'things' and not having any luck

Tried reading that first Wiki but god what utter crap. I was almost going to copy paste some, but felt my post didn't deserve to have garbage strewn all over it.

I'm amazed any of these people actually get paid. At least lawyers as annoying as they are, can demonstrate real worth. Just more reasons why so much of society is messed up. Too long listening to the drivel of psychiatry.

No where in all that non science was there any real information worth knowing, aside from knowing it is required to get work as a psychiatrist.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 22:54
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I like what I like for the beauty of the thing.

Schoolgirls are the same as a gorgeous sunrise, or a snow covered mountain vista.

And most men have an ugliness to them that has too much in common with cancerous growths and fetid swamps

It's not perversion to like the beautiful in life.

I guess there's just too many men that can't deal with the truth that I find nothing appealing about them.

Regarding disorder, no I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with me, I just have too much knowledge from such a wealth of studies, that makes it easy to resent my gender.
It's like good news and bad news I suppose. Easy to find bad examples, takes a lot of effort to find good ones.

My father has always been my idea of a man's man. 43 years of work, only missed three days.
The list of bad examples would take all night just to get a start.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 23:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les Brains View Post
I was born male, but I am plenty sure there is plenty of my mind that is not entirely cliche. I don't think a person can use a knife though, and change who they are. Well the thing is, I think who we are is not based on what's between our legs.

Lately I have been going just a bit mental trying to understand just who the heck I actually am
I'm not a psychologist and have no real experience in the field, but here's my two cents:

You are what you are. There is no mystical "you" or ideal "you" which needs to be found, discovered, balanced, etc. You are the sum of your physical condition and your previous experiences.

I think we ARE what's between our legs. If you have XY chromosomes, you are a man. You might be an extremely emotional, manicure-enjoying, romance-novel-loving example of a man, but you're still a man. You may feel some disconnect from your gender, but let's be honest, if you've never been the other gender, how do you know you're supposed to be the other gender? My guess is that you look at how the other gender acts and at what they enjoy and you realize you act and enjoy the same things, and so you assume you were supposed to be one of them. However the reality is that all men have some "feminine" preferences and vice versa, but I still consider them 100% men. People are not 60/40% of a certain gender based on mental preferences. It's ridiculous to divide activities or emotions into male/female categories. If a person likes to hunt, does that make them more masculine or feminine? Bah, it's just a load of cultural baggage, it doesn't determine your sexuality/gender. I disagree with the idea that there is a "mental" side to gender.

If you disagree, feel free. This isn't an "issue" as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 25 Mar 10, 23:37
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No it's not wrong to have that opinion.

Many of the assertions of psychiatry are in my view bullshit wrapped up in a lot of clever sounding wordy babble. They enjoy the same advantage lawyers do, in that most people just can't see what they are saying thanks to all the text book grade jargon.

Most of psychiatry is just sophisticated linguistics. I chose 'sophisticated' on purpose here.

But I am still having trouble identifying 'what' the mind is.

How much of what I am organically is in control of what I am mentally is the challenge.

I've come to a personal belief, that a perfect person is a great blend of both genders to some extent. A man that can't do much of anything cliche feminine is really not my equal. I am more than the sum of the average guy.
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Old 26 Mar 10, 00:04
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But I am still having trouble identifying 'what' the mind is.

How much of what I am organically is in control of what I am mentally is the challenge.

I've come to a personal belief, that a perfect person is a great blend of both genders to some extent. A man that can't do much of anything cliche feminine is really not my equal. I am more than the sum of the average guy.
Well, if you cut out parts of a persons brain, they lose certain capabilities. So it would seem clear that the mental relies on the organic. At the same time I believe people have far more mental control they give themselves credit for. We can force our body to do things it doesn't want to (such as ignoring pain).

I don't believe in perfect persons, but I do believe that most well-balanced individuals rarely exemplify typical male/female arch-types. To state that any activities outside of the biological indicate gender, is to me, mistaken.
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