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  #1  
Old 03 Mar 10, 16:44
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Best Counter-Insurgency Training in the World?

Let me kick off this thread by saying it is the Kaibil school in Guatemala.

Others? Cite your reasons and or experience. I will post mine later after we kick off this thread.

Saludos,

Alatriste
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  #2  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:05
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Not sure on now, but aguably the best COIN operations in history were conducted by the Rhodesian Light Infantry and the rest of the Rhodesian Forces.

http://www.jrtwood.com/article_fireforce.asp





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  #3  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
Not sure on now, but aguably the best COIN operations in history were conducted by the Rhodesian Light Infantry and the rest of the Rhodesian Forces...
How can you say that? They lost, i.e., the place is now called Zimbabwe.
  #4  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:17
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Originally Posted by Alatriste View Post
How can you say that? They lost, i.e., the place is now called Zimbabwe.
No, they didn't lose any of the battles, the tactics were completely successful. Politics stepped in. I suggest you read up on the Rhodesian Bush War before making statements about it.
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  #5  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:17
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Selous Scouts were very, very high quality operators. Just because the situation didn't work out for their side doesn't mean they were to blame. I'm not sure it they're at the pinnacle but they've got to be in the top 10.
  #6  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
No, they didn't lose any of the battles, the tactics were completely successful. Politics stepped in. I suggest you read up on the Rhodesian Bush War before making statements about it.
Well, actually I have. Why would you assume I haven't? How about posting some facts instead of cartoons.

Last edited by Alatriste; 03 Mar 10 at 19:22..
  #7  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:24
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Originally Posted by Alatriste View Post
Well, actually I have. Why would you assume I haven't?
Because you said the soldiers lost. They didn't. Every engagement ended in high casualties for the terrs. The insurgency didn't cause operations to end, external pressure caused by colonial guilt did.

edit: Cartoons? You mean illustrations explaining Fireforce operations and a link to an article about them?
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  #8  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:29
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Originally Posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
Because you said the soldiers lost. They didn't. Every engagement ended in high casualties for the terrs. The insurgency didn't cause operations to end, external pressure caused by colonial guilt did.
Counter-insurgency can't be successful if it is just measured in terms of individual successful vignettes of battle. The counter-insurgent force has to get to the root of the logistical support, which in almost all cases means the local population that supports the insurgency. It can not be measured solely in terms of warriorship on a combatant-to-combatant vignette.
  #9  
Old 03 Mar 10, 19:32
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I think you guys are speaking past each other. On the one hand, the army fought a campaign that was successful in achieving its military objectives. On the other hand, the army, together with the state, was unsuccessful in preserving the regime. Politics trumped military success in this case, as in many other insurgency situations.

Just my two cents.
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Old 03 Mar 10, 19:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatriste View Post
Counter-insurgency can't be successful if it is just measured in terms of individual successful vignettes of battle. The counter-insurgent force has to get to the root of the logistical support, which in almost all cases means the local population that supports the insurgency. It can not be measured solely in terms of warriorship on a combatant-to-combatant vignette.
Dude once you said "post facts instead of cartoons" I decided you aren't worth talking to. But I will leave you with this.

You started out making a thread about COIN schools, that teach tactics. I mentioned some people that developed very successful tactics. You made ridiculous statement about the Forces that fought, now you are trying to change the rules to make yourself seem "right"

So anyways. I'm done with this conversation.
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Old 03 Mar 10, 19:36
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Originally Posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
edit: Cartoons? You mean illustrations explaining Fireforce operations and a link to an article about them?
The cartoon is not realistic. Not when it shows paratroopers jumping into a zone where aircraft are BELOW them. No visual for the pilots above if they are concentrating on ground targets, and last time I jumped my MC1-1 wasn't very fast at avoiding aircraft underneath me.

But look, let's be collegial about this. My only quip is that the counter-insurgency was a failure. The insurgency prevailed. Same in Angola, Mozambique, etc.
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Old 03 Mar 10, 21:27
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Originally Posted by The Ibis View Post
I think you guys are speaking past each other. On the one hand, the army fought a campaign that was successful in achieving its military objectives. On the other hand, the army, together with the state, was unsuccessful in preserving the regime. Politics trumped military success in this case, as in many other insurgency situations.

Just my two cents.
Actually I think the dissent here is some bleed-over from the impressions of Russia thread wrt the Russsian bride sidebar.

Yes, the higher brass in the military, and the government will often sabotage the success of their own counter-insurgents and the counter-insurgency. It would be interesting to hear what the recently departed Ian Smith's comments would be. I am amused, however, how the Liberal Left loved Mugabe. Now look at what he has done to the country. I am amused again at how the Liberal Left loved Ayatollah Khomeini, now look at the legacy left in Iran. Do we see a pattern here?
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Old 03 Mar 10, 21:47
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Originally Posted by Alatriste View Post
Let me kick off this thread by saying it is the Kaibil school in Guatemala.

Others? Cite your reasons and or experience. I will post mine later after we kick off this thread.

Saludos,

Alatriste
Seems that everyone else's opinion will be wrong anyway, so cut to the chase and explain your reasons and experience. That way others can agree or disagree.

Maybe your choice of explanatory media will be received better by everyone than what you gave Stryker's.
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Old 03 Mar 10, 22:08
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Seems that everyone else's opinion will be wrong anyway...
You won't know that unless you post an opinion. I have only heard one thus far. 19K30 never said why he thought they were the best in his initial post. All I did was question him since he gave no justification for his reason, which is what was asked for in the opening post. He answered with a rant similar to...I suggest you read blah-blah-blah before posting...

Do you have a contribution you would like to make to the thread? Or are you here to spoil it?
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Old 03 Mar 10, 22:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatriste View Post
You won't know that unless you post an opinion. I have only heard one thus far. 19K30 never said why he thought they were the best in his initial post. All I did was question him since he gave no justification for his reason, which is what was asked for in the opening post. He answered with a rant similar to...I suggest you read blah-blah-blah before posting...

Do you have a contribution you would like to make to the thread? Or are you here to spoil it?
Stryker implied his justification was tactical in nature, that is why he linked a site and "cartoons" that tried to explain the tactics used. You countered with an astute point that the tactics did not change the outcome, but it had some attitude in it. Ibis tried to mediate with his comment, but the attitude seemed to continue. It seems to be an interesting topic and that is why I was reading it. I just want it to remain mature and informative. If I have anything that I think would be beneficial to the topic, then I will post it whether it be informative or humorous. I have no intention of spoiling it.

If you have justification and experience to back up your choice, then post it. Don't wait for me. I just don't want to see you jumping on someone else's choice when it is opinion based anyway.

So let's just get back to the topic.

Sorry for the sideshow everyone.
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