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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean > Haiti

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Haiti Jan 2010 Earthquake in Haiti. .

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  #31  
Old 15 Feb 10, 12:58
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...after all that's happened, at this point I don't give a rat's patoot for this Silsby woman or any of her syncophants. Let them all rot in jail. It's disasters Haitian earthquake, the Maylasian tsunami, hurricanes and cyclones that bring out these child traffickers. Under a guise of a church, a fictitious charity, or as good samaritans they prey on the defenseless to enrich themselves. I hope they are all found out for what they really are...
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  #32  
Old 15 Feb 10, 15:05
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Originally Posted by Gixxer86g View Post
The plot sickens yet again!I don't know about a pattern though.I still feel that the nine missionaries are basically innocent.But this Silsby woman may be involved in much deeper shenanigans.However,the relationship of this "legal advisor" to the missionaries may not be what it seems.Maybe he just decided to "champion" their cause and the missionaries didn't know who he was or what he's accused of.Did these people ask for his help,or did he come to them offering his help?
Yeah, well... but maybe the Hatitian law enforcement officers were correct. Even if only one of them is a child trafficer its highly unlikely that that person would not have some kind of plan to screw the do-gooders and then screw the children. So I would say that the response was reasonable and well measured, I dont see the US citizens being executed, tortured or in any way mistreated. What would you have the hatian police do? Let every person that wants to exit the country with 33 kids in tow go if they are american citizens because criminals can never be americans? They only hold them to face criminal investigation, thats hardly unfair.

I dont think your reflex to defend your fellow americans is bad but the way you made your case certainly was. Calling Haiti a toilet etc.

As for the children... In those parts of the world children are not a luxury item, they are a necessity. They will later support you when you're old, they are your retirement plan. So they are needed even if raising them cuts to your financial substance, and as shown by the earthquake having just one or two is not an option, they can always die before their time leaving you with no one to take care of you in old age. So, no taking those children aways from their parents "for their own good" must not necessarily be good, it can also be devistating. And being raised in the states or europe does not automatically means being better off. There are meth addicts and alcoholics over here too.

For us... children are a luxury that cost a lot of money and time. Thus we have far less children than they have although we could afford vastly more. Obviously I didnt consider love for children but I dont think they love their kids less than we do or vice versa.
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  #33  
Old 15 Feb 10, 17:36
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Haiti is a backwards toilet of a country.Sorry if that offends anyone.But it's the truth.

I don't know too many people who consider children to be a luxury item.But these people spit out kids like there's no tomorrow.They can't support them.A couple of kids are fine,but six,seven even thirteen when you can't even feed yourself?That's just plain irresponsible,and quite frankly ignorant.And this concept of having a huge family you can't feed just incase a natural disaster occurs and some of your kids die is just silly.

Many of the people in Haiti that have these large and hungry families gave their own kids up in hope that at least of their children may have a better chance at a decent life.

There's obviously much more to this story than meets the eye.The judge was about to release these people until this "advisor's" legal problems came to light.I would like to know how he came to be their advisor.A lot depends on that.If this Silsby woman,or any of the others sought him for help,it will look very bad.If he came to them offering assistance,and they didn't know about the accusations of child molestation,trafficking,etc you really can't blame them.
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  #34  
Old 15 Feb 10, 18:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer86g View Post
Haiti is a backwards toilet of a country.Sorry if that offends anyone.But it's the truth.

I don't know too many people who consider children to be a luxury item.But these people spit out kids like there's no tomorrow.They can't support them.A couple of kids are fine,but six,seven even thirteen when you can't even feed yourself?That's just plain irresponsible,and quite frankly ignorant.And this concept of having a huge family you can't feed just incase a natural disaster occurs and some of your kids die is just silly.

Many of the people in Haiti that have these large and hungry families gave their own kids up in hope that at least of their children may have a better chance at a decent life.

There's obviously much more to this story than meets the eye.The judge was about to release these people until this "advisor's" legal problems came to light.I would like to know how he came to be their advisor.A lot depends on that.If this Silsby woman,or any of the others sought him for help,it will look very bad.If he came to them offering assistance,and they didn't know about the accusations of child molestation,trafficking,etc you really can't blame them.
Really. So then pray tell, who decided that Haiti is a toilet and who gave that person the right to descide that universal truth? Who is using Haiti then? Or is Haiti a toilet that nobody uses?

A luxury item is something that you dont need but have anyway. I know many people whose kids are not needed for the survival or well being of their parents but they have them. They love their kids and adore them but their rationale for having kids is radically different from the rationale that a poor haitian farmer has.

If the judge was about to release the americans then where was the problem? Surely american citizens are not above the law. It all seems rather business-as-usual like and not like any "white devil" catching campaign.
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  #35  
Old 15 Feb 10, 18:27
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Originally Posted by jose50 View Post
...after all that's happened, at this point I don't give a rat's patoot for this Silsby woman or any of her syncophants. Let them all rot in jail.
That's right, who cares if they're innocent, let them all rot! Come on Jose, I think we can agree that it is better to determine guilt or innocence before pronouncing a sentence of punishment. Furthermore, right or wrong they are American citizens. Letting them rot is hardly a proper solution.

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Originally Posted by jose50 View Post
It's disasters Haitian earthquake, the Maylasian tsunami, hurricanes and cyclones that bring out these child traffickers.
Agreed but that's no excuse for engaging in some half cocked form of rendition on an innocent party. If they are innocent they should go free. Focusing your efforts on the innocent only draws resources away from punishing those who are actually guilty. The more time Haiti spends prosecuting their little show trial, the less time they spend engaging predators that are actually hurting children. Frankly I find that outrageous. Ignoring actual crimes so you can look tough for the cameras - despicable. Using unarmed missionaries to look tough because you don't have the cajones to face guys with real weapons - cowardly. Haiti has pretty much squandered my goodwill with this little affair.

Now regarding the matter of their legal council: The fact that their Jorge Puello has a shady history is no indication that the church members are in a shady business. There is no evidence yet that the church members are involved in any nefarious activity. They remain fools but fools innocent of child trafficking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/wo...s/14haiti.html

This NYT article points out that the church had no affiliation with this guy until AFTER they were arrested. He wasn't an employee of the church so it cannot be argued that he was a part of their operation. Bad luck on the part of the church - and bad judgement for taking his free help over the embassy lawyers, but again no evidece of wrongdoing.
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  #36  
Old 16 Feb 10, 17:31
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...sorry Tyler...it's just my opinion. You don't have to agree but that's the way it is. Whether or not these people had altruistic motives, it was INCUMBENT upon them to guarantee the status of each and EVERY child that they took into their care. At the very least they were incompetant; and at the worst? What then? Either case there is no way that I could call them 'innocent'.
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Old 17 Feb 10, 11:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jose50 View Post
...sorry Tyler...it's just my opinion. You don't have to agree but that's the way it is. Whether or not these people had altruistic motives, it was INCUMBENT upon them to guarantee the status of each and EVERY child that they took into their care.
I agree completely.

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Originally Posted by jose50 View Post
At the very least they were incompetant; and at the worst? What then? Either case there is no way that I could call them 'innocent'.
Incompetance isn't a felony. I agree it has consequences but not ones requiring a prison sentence. If it was my call I'd bring 'em back to the states and revoke their visas. These people clearly have no business being in another country. That's the consequence. I wouldn't even let them go to Canada. Now if they were engaging in child trafficking, which is so unlikely it borders on absurdity but just for the sake of argument, I would still bring them back to the states for two reasons. One, they are our crooks and our responsibility. Two, the Haitian prisons may look tough but with the country as corrupt as it is, there's no telling that some crooked official may spring them and utilize their services. Back here they would be labeled as sex offenders and watched so closely that if they so much as live near a school every citizen in the county will be made aware of it. Well, unless they live in Vermont. But in Haiti anything goes.

Sorry if my first post was a bit snappy. It just seemed to me you were jumping the gun.
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Old 17 Feb 10, 16:43
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Originally Posted by pirateship1982 View Post
If it was my call I'd bring 'em back to the states and revoke their visas. These people clearly have no business being in another country. That's the consequence. I wouldn't even let them go to Canada. Now if they were engaging in child trafficking, which is so unlikely it borders on absurdity but just for the sake of argument, I would still bring them back to the states for two reasons. One, they are our crooks and our responsibility. Two, the Haitian prisons may look tough but with the country as corrupt as it is, there's no telling that some crooked official may spring them and utilize their services. Back here they would be labeled as sex offenders and watched so closely that if they so much as live near a school every citizen in the county will be made aware of it. Well, unless they live in Vermont. But in Haiti anything goes.
They are not our criminals. We have prisons filled with people who consider themselves Christians. They broke the law in Haiti, not the US. You'd have to revoke their passports, not visas.
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Old 18 Feb 10, 13:44
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They are not our criminals. We have prisons filled with people who consider themselves Christians.
That they consider themselves Christians is not the issue. That they are American citizens is.

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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
They broke the law in Haiti, not the US.
They are still American citizens and the Haitian legal system is a joke. And I'm sure not going to stand for them being railroaded when they're innocent.

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You'd have to revoke their passports, not visas.
Semantics. A passport says you can travel, a visa says where and for what.
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Old 18 Feb 10, 23:20
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Originally Posted by pirateship1982 View Post
That they consider themselves Christians is not the issue. That they are American citizens is.
They are still American citizens and the Haitian legal system is a joke. And I'm sure not going to stand for them being railroaded when they're innocent.
1. You must have been asleep in your high school Civics/Government class since you obviously don't know legal systems or how governments work.
2. Please never travel outside the US since you seem to be a posterboy for Ugly Americans.
When you travel to foreign countries, you are bound by their laws and their legal system. Being an American doesn't count for squat! How do you know that they're innocent? At the very least they are guilty of stupidity, naivete and being ugly Americans. When you are in another country, you're a guest---act like it!

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Old 19 Feb 10, 14:13
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Please never travel outside the US since you seem to be a posterboy for Ugly Americans.
Well that personal attack pretty much destroys your intellectual credibility.

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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
When you travel to foreign countries, you are bound by their laws and their legal system.
And you're reading comprehension skills are now brought into question seeing as I never said they weren't.

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How do you know that they're innocent?
Well so far no evidence has been provided to prove their guilt. I don't know what the rules are in your little alternate universe but where I come from when there is no evidence of guilt that generally indicates innocence.

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At the very least they are guilty of stupidity, naivete and being ugly Americans.
Stupidity and naivete? Yes. But your repeated use of the ugly American remark makes your allegiance known. You know if you really hate America that much, LEAVE! Go to Korea or China where your America bashing might actually impress someone.

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Old 19 Feb 10, 15:00
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Well that personal attack pretty much destroys your intellectual credibility.
And you're reading comprehension skills are now brought into question seeing as I never said they weren't.
Well so far no evidence has been provided to prove their guilt. I don't know what the rules are in your little alternate universe but where I come from when there is no evidence of guilt that generally indicates innocence.
Stupidity and naivete? Yes. But your repeated use of the ugly American remark makes your allegiance known. You know if you really hate America that much, LEAVE! Go to Korea or China where your America bashing might actually impress someone.
That wasn't an "attack". It was an observation of the way you act.
You're the one with poor reading comprehension. You said that they should be brought back to the States for trial since they are Americans. I was merely saying that you are tried where you committed the crime, according to their laws.
Why should there be evidence of guilt provided yet? The trial hasn't started yet. Some societies believe in trying the case in the courts, not the media.
I don't "hate America", I just dislike US citizens who believe that they are special and the rules don't apply to them.
BTW- The term "Americans" applies to everyone who lives in the Americas, both North and South. I guess that would mean Haitians are Americans, huh? Using "Americans" to apply to just US citizens shows your skewed view of the world. Here's a hint- the earth revolves around the sun, not the United States.
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Old 20 Feb 10, 03:46
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Seems a lot of posters are jumping on these people, describing them as Ugly Americans, naive, and child abductors. The VAST majority of non-Haitians arriving into that country are there for benevolent purposes. A few bad seeds such as the alleged sex offender/child trafficker can ruin the perception of the Americans and other nationals who are stopping their lives of relative comfort to go somewhere else, live in terrible conditions just for the chance to save a life or make someone else's life better.

I would venture that if any one of us on this thread were actually present after the disaster and saw the crushing needs of the locals and you had the desire to affect positive change, I doubt that "Haitian" would mean more to you than "human". You might think that an "International border" would look more like an imaginary line in the dirt made by politicians, across which is a safe haven. I have never been to Haiti, but I have traveled to places that could be described as toilets. I have also seen firsthand major natural disasters. I would hate to be in a situation where both were combined. Yet these people got off their couches, put down their laptops, left their climate controlled dwellings, rolled up their sleeves and tried to do something good using their own money. Try it when you get done being a Monday morning quarterback and see how your perception changes.
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Old 20 Feb 10, 10:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
That wasn't an "attack". It was an observation of the way you act.
"Ugly American"? Bull. That was a personal attack plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
You're the one with poor reading comprehension. You said that they should be brought back to the States for trial since they are Americans. I was merely saying that you are tried where you committed the crime, according to their laws.
And if this was a country that had a working legal system like Canada or even China for that matter I would agree. But I won't stand for people getting railroaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Why should there be evidence of guilt provided yet? The trial hasn't started yet. Some societies believe in trying the case in the courts, not the media.
Some societies actually believe you should have a case before making charges. No witnesses say they engaged in trafficking, no paper trail suggests they engage in trafficking. All we have is wild speculation which you have swallowed hook line and sinker. You may believe in guilty until proven innocent, but that isn't exactly the mantra of modern law.

You go looking for evidence BEFORE the indictment, not after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
I don't "hate America", I just dislike US citizens who believe that they are special and the rules don't apply to them.
Or Americans that want a fair trial it would seem. You act as though these people are guilty, I act as though they were innocent. The difference in our views is that some actual evidence would convince me these people were guilty whereas you believe their guilt before any evidence has been presented. If I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and you don't, who is truly the "ugly American"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
BTW- The term "Americans" applies to everyone who lives in the Americas, both North and South. I guess that would mean Haitians are Americans, huh? Using "Americans" to apply to just US citizens shows your skewed view of the world. Here's a hint- the earth revolves around the sun, not the United States.
Talk about a lame semantics argument. We refer to ourselves as Americans because it takes less breath than referring to ourselves as Americans of the United States. That's not some willful display of arrogance, it's a contraction.

You're really getting silly in your search for justifications to dislike me.
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Old 20 Feb 10, 10:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afghanisdan View Post
Seems a lot of posters are jumping on these people, describing them as Ugly Americans, naive, and child abductors. The VAST majority of non-Haitians arriving into that country are there for benevolent purposes. A few bad seeds such as the alleged sex offender/child trafficker can ruin the perception of the Americans and other nationals who are stopping their lives of relative comfort to go somewhere else, live in terrible conditions just for the chance to save a life or make someone else's life better.

I would venture that if any one of us on this thread were actually present after the disaster and saw the crushing needs of the locals and you had the desire to affect positive change, I doubt that "Haitian" would mean more to you than "human". You might think that an "International border" would look more like an imaginary line in the dirt made by politicians, across which is a safe haven. I have never been to Haiti, but I have traveled to places that could be described as toilets. I have also seen firsthand major natural disasters. I would hate to be in a situation where both were combined. Yet these people got off their couches, put down their laptops, left their climate controlled dwellings, rolled up their sleeves and tried to do something good using their own money. Try it when you get done being a Monday morning quarterback and see how your perception changes.
I've been in the third world on my dime and everything you say is dead on. I will state however that these guys made a foolish move, but I can back that with my own experiences and knowledge about this field. When you go into a foreign country you dot every i and cross every t, not just because it's polite and respectful but because in these rougher neighborhoods you don't want john law to have any reason to dislike you - percisely because this is what happens. Building houses and treating the injured is simple enough but you don't bring ANYONE across the border without all of your papers in order. It may be altruistic but there is nothing closer to God than border police and it is wise not to offend them.

But as for the motives of these missionaries, I have no doubt they were honorable. And I don't buy for one second that they were traffickers. So while I do ladel a bit of criticism for their actions, I harbor no animosity toward them. Because you're absolutely right, at least these people tried to do something.
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