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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #16  
Old 23 Dec 09, 20:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
You see? That's the exactly thing I wrote before:

"Right now I fully understand Russian point of view. I do not approve it, but understand and accept. Common Russians (as far as I know) do not understand our point of view (and when I say "our" I mean "eastern european") and will never accept it"
You are obviously cheating here. You do not accept it and you made it very clear. As for the understanding, sure, it's clear enough. Even a maniac's motivations can be understood if properly studied.

Quote:
You just can't accept my point of view, which is totally different, you can't accept that someone may thinkabout your sacred things wrong and this is the result - anger and withdrawal.
Even the Russians nowadays don't say that the absolute majority of the German soldiers were vile homicidal barbarians. Yes, they served an inhuman regime and were all accomplices in some of the worst atrocities ever committed in the world by the mere fact of fighting for Hitler. But just a small part of them were directly responsible for these acts. You are a prisoner of your country's russophobic propaganda if you think that MOST Russian soldiers were what you're trying to claim here.

As for the anger - what happens if someone comes to you and says: "I think you and your relatives are a****es. This is just my point of view, no personal offence. I also think your values are junk. Now let's have a normal discussion"?

Quote:
I do not hate Russians. I may disagree with your policy, view of history etc, but hatred? Hatred is not an option. You are exactly the same humans as I am.

Again - it's not hatred. Dislike - okay. But certainly not hatred, at least I do not feel it, because I don't know what you feel about it.
Oh thank you very much, I'm so relieved. But we can start with the dictionary definition. You declare yourself Russophobic.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/russophobia

Rus⋅so⋅phobe/ˈrʌsəˌfoʊb/
–noun
a person who hates or fears Russia or the Russians.


Quote:
Again - this is your point of view which don't have to be 100% true. Just as mine. But when you put away your subjective point of view - it became clear that Russia for eastern europe and later whole free world was a "bad guy". And this were your kids, but when you started to "kicking butts of other nations" (a bit naive statement) they were already safe because I don't think there were "your kids" in Poland or Lithuania etc.).
That's nice, you were the one to compare Poland with an old lady who was killed. I extended your antropomorphic metaphor and changed to "kicked the butt". Niow you're accusing me of "naivete"

Quote:
And to be correct - in our case certainly not "kicked her in the butt really hard so that she was knocked out". Rather "tried to force her to wear red rags but ultimately failed miserably to do so and totally collapsed soon after while she's in very good condition and still improving"
I'm glad you don't recognise the AK which was most definitely knocked out and ceased to exist as a serious force very soon. Even the Polish government in exile became a shadow of the shadow it had been before. I'm glad things are improving in Poland. Maybe sometime the quality of life there becomes so good they will get rid of their numerous phobias, including Russophobia.

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Sorry friend, but if Poland had so many people and so many soldiers as you had we would won this war in 2 weeks
This is not the issue of soldiers or fighing. The thing is that war lasted for 3 years on the Russian territory, while in Poland it lasted for one month in 1939 and a 3-4 months in 1944. Therefore Russia suffered much more destruction and losses.

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And there is a major error in your statement - 16% Poles died during this war - 5 500 000 and you say that"we were left for a dessert"? It's not 23 000 000, but we also didn't have 168 000 000 citizens before war but only 35 000 000.
I was speaking about ethnic Poles - and only a half of them can be included in this number.

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We fought in this war much longer than you - at least 17 days longer (not counting your alliance with Nazis 1939-1941)
Nope, the Poland as a state ceased to exist in September 1939 de-facto.
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  #17  
Old 23 Dec 09, 20:50
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P.S.

I wonder if you tried something like this here:

"Don't accuse me of being anti-Semitic. It's not anti-Semitism, it's only 500 years of experience with this neighbour"

or

"Don't accuse me of being anti-American. It's not a anti-Americanism, it's only 500 years of experience with this neighbour"

Luckily for you, in the world of triumphant political correctness, there is quite a lot of breathing space for ethnic and national bigotry. It only matters who it's aimed at.
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  #18  
Old 23 Dec 09, 22:35
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Quote:
You are obviously cheating here. You do not accept it and you made it very clear. As for the understanding, sure, it's clear enough. Even a maniac's motivations can be understood if properly studied.
I accept that someone may disagree with me and believe in things that are totally wrong in my opinion. The fact that you consider Red Army soldiers as heroes do not make me angry or sad or happy. I just don't agree with you and that's all even when I consider your words as a completely false point of view. You are feeling offended when I present my point of view and I assure you, that your words can also offend eastern europeans. I know a person who would be as offended by your words as you are by mine. His family members were killed by NKVD in 1944. They were from AK. But I do not feel offended or angry, it's really not worth it.

And that's typical - says things different than I - so he must be a maniac.

Quote:
Even the Russians nowadays don't say that the absolute majority of the German soldiers were vile homicidal barbarians.
Maybe because their presence in Russia haven't lasted for 40 years and they haven't managed to estabilish a Nazi governement there. Also there was a difference between German people and Russian. I am not a racist and I do not hate Russians (as I said before, but I'll say it again) but people from Germany (even from villages) were more civilised than people from Russian villages. Even many Poles considered Germans as a rather cultural people.

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Yes, they served an inhuman regime and were all accomplices in some of the worst atrocities ever committed in the world by the mere fact of fighting for Hitler. But just a small part of them were directly responsible for these acts. You are a prisoner of your country's russophobic propaganda if you think that MOST Russian soldiers were what you're trying to claim here.
One mistake - we do not have "russophobic propaganda". There are jokes about Russians, but you have the same jokes about us - and it's completely normal. But I haven't noticed any special "propaganda" aimed at you. We have many independent media and journalists, many people who likes Russians etc. It's only again the same thing - you just can't accept that for the half of the europe your soldiers are not a sacred thing. So if someone says opposite things than you - it is wrong, it's because of enemy propaganda etc.

There is no propaganda here, just the experience

There's also a one interesting thing. You said "Yes, they served an inhuman regime and were all accomplices in some of the worst atrocities" while we can say the same things about Soviet soldiers. They also served an inhuman regime (communism) who commited terrible atrocities (some madeby soldiers, some by politicians). The most important thing is whether you realise it or not.

Quote:
As for the anger - what happens if someone comes to you and says: "I think you and your relatives are a****es. This is just my point of view, no personal offence. I also think your values are junk. Now let's have a normal discussion"?
So you want me to be politically correct. All right, I can try. Osama bin Laden is a good guy, I can't say a bad thing about him or Hani Hanjour. He believed strongly that his cause was just and is praised in Afghanistan. I have to bow before photo of him just because I have to be politically correct.

Sorry, can't do that.

What can I say? First - we are not a 12 year old kids. I am not offended so easily. My ancestors were quelling the Ukrainian Rebellion in XVII century. I am sure they killed a lot of Ukrainians and burned a lot of villages. What if some Ukrainian says "those Poles were murderers! They were stealing, raping, burning, hanging and if I were a cossack I would cut their heads off etc.!"

I would say - you're right. They were not saints though I love this history and admire our soldiers.

What if you would say "In 1610 your soldiers killed my ancestor and burned his house!"? I would say "Yeah, you're right. They were not heroes though I consider them as heroes. Because they were heroes for us, not for entire humanity. They were doing it to achieve political profits - not to make Russians happy. I won't be angry when you say that they were agressors and that you are happy that they were driven out of Moscow. I also respect those who fought then against us because they had to be brave".

And Polish-Bolshevik war and Russian prisoners? "It was outrageous! How they were treated! Murderers! They murdered my grandpa!". I would say - "of course, it was wrong. They should treat them better, much better. I consider Pilsudski as a great hero and excellent commander and I am extremely proud of our soldiers, but they are not saints and I wouldn't behave like 12 year old kid when someone says that Pokemons are stupid when a Russian would complain about soviet captured POWs. Heroes for us - villains for you. Did great things for Poland, and really bad for Russia."

See? It's really not that difficult.

You just stubbornly can't accept and understand the fact, that they were agressors and brang us a new totalitarian regime, not "freedom". During Cold War we tasted a communist propaganda and I know that you spent almost all your life learning about "liberation of Poland". But it was certainly not a liberation

Just understand it and you'll be one step closer to understanding why I can't call Red Army soldiers "heroes". While I understand why you call them in that way, I won't call them like that myself. I really don't know how to explain it better and believe that I do whatever I can with my still not satysfying level of English

Quote:
Oh thank you very much, I'm so relieved. But we can start with the dictionary definition. You declare yourself Russophobic.
Not exactly. My all posts here clearly say "do not accuse me of being russophobic". It says that we spent many years as your neighbour and know you a bit letter than for example Americans of French. Mutual relations were not especially good and there were many trouble times between us. In one century we were winning wars, in the other - loosing. And because we spent so many years next to each other and experienced many bad things (and made you experience many bad things so it's mutual) I just have my own point of view about Russia. But this point of view do not mean that I hate Russia and that's the point where your theory fails.

In fact I'd love to go to Russia one day. I find Siberia really interesting and beautiful.

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That's nice, you were the one to compare Poland with an old lady who was killed. I extended your antropomorphic metaphor and changed to "kicked the butt". Niow you're accusing me of "naivete"
It was not really meant to be an exact comparison to the Poland, but I wrote it to present fallacy in your point of view. You also didn't answer the test - and I know why. Because such man, who saved an old lady and then robbed her just after that cannot be by any means and under any circumstances considered a hero. Maybe for other thugs, but it's not really an honor, am I right? (and again just to be clear, because you seem to be a little oversensitive about it. It's not actually a comparison of Russians to thugs right now. It is just to show you my way of thinking)

And it was a naive statement, because I can't see any reason to say that Poland was "kicked in the butt etc." Poles managed to live after that and still conditions of living were better here than in Russia even in those dark, red times.

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I'm glad you don't recognise the AK which was most definitely knocked out and ceased to exist as a serious force very soon.
Actually I bought a nice huge book about AK fighting against Russians for my father for Christmas They ceased to exist because most of them decided that war is over. Those who fought agains communism were dommed already because there was too few of them. But I believe that any "intervention" in Poland would be much harder for you than in Hungary or Czechoslovakia. We have experience in fighting in uprisings

Quote:
I'm glad things are improving in Poland. Maybe sometime the quality of life there becomes so good they will get rid of their numerous phobias, including Russophobia.
Oh, it is achievable even now. Just stop saying lies like "There are doubts that Katyn was indeed a Russian war crime or not". Yes, Yeltsin apologised and that was very nice of him, and should end this part of history, but when Poland says something Russia don't want to hear or do what Russia do not like there's always a response like this Not to mention your "historian" who says that we planned to attack Russia together with Hitler and that you signed Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty to defend themselves

You should also, as I said before, understand that you do not have a monopoly on truth (in reality you messed with historical truth very badly in the past century) and that others can have a different point of view.

Easy? Seems so. But not here, because "Red Army soldiers are sacred and we will not tolerate any other point of view!"

So the fault is not with our suppoused russophobia, but rather with Russian "truthophobia"

Quote:
This is not the issue of soldiers or fighing. The thing is that war lasted for 3 years on the Russian territory, while in Poland it lasted for one month in 1939 and a 3-4 months in 1944. Therefore Russia suffered much more destruction and losses.
Battles lasted for few months. After that civilians lost their last defence and were hopeless. Germans were killing citizens of the entire villages, sending people to concentration camps and executing as a revenge for AK's actions. We weren't sending millions of troops for certain death by ordering them to run at german machinegun nests and wait until they run out of ammo, but life in occupied Poland was not especially pleasant.

Russia indeed suffered more pain and losses, but it's not an excuse for anything.

And I dare to say that this war (in your territory and partially our - captured in 1939) is entirely your fault. You decided to ally with devil, you decided to help him and attack us so you simply deserved it. And also your army was rather incompetent in 1940-1941 so it was a clear invitation for Germans.

Quote:
I was speaking about ethnic Poles - and only a half of them can be included in this number.
I consider Jews as equal citizens of Poland but if you insist. It's still a huge number for a 38 000 000 people's country,don't you think? So as you clearly see we were not "left for a dessert".

Quote:
Nope, the Poland as a state ceased to exist in September 1939 de-facto.
Yes, that was your excuse to cowardly attack us after Hitler sent a false message that Warsaw was captured (actually they had big problems with it then) But our governement survived (until 1989! that's awesome and very inspiring), we had an underground army (one of the biggest in history and it was also keeping some German soldiers in Poland and blowing up trains thus helping you in some way. It was also a huge and very strong force and that's why you feared it so much), underground justice, underground schools and universities, underground special agents, never shamed ourselves with something like Vichy, Quisling or Русская освободительная народная армия and still figthing with an (if I am correct) army on almost all fronts (Poland, Norway, France, England, Africa, Eastern Europe, Italy, again France, Holland, Germany) and fourth in size after Russians, Americans and British. Polish state was rather well, despite the most unfortunate situation. The only reason your propaganda was against our underground and govt. in exile is that you had your own, evil plans about this part of Europe

Quote:
"Don't accuse me of being anti-American. It's not a anti-Americanism, it's only 500 years of experience with this neighbour"
I would say - stunning achievement when I think that US is a lot younger! Just don't say that you are offended by this also. The purpose of this sig is to prevent such false accusations of russophobia. As we see - it didn't work.

I said many times that I do not hate Russians so I won't say it anymore (at least not soon). You can believe me, or not. I just still say that the fact that you consider something as sacred do not mean that everyone on Earth have to share your point of view. And I can't say that I don't share it without any arguments.


Well, today is Christmas in Poland so I won't probably visit this forum for few days. I'd like to wish you all, and right now especially ShAA and other Russians here a Happy life and may you find whatever you seek - love, friendship, interesting people, happiness, adventure...

And also a will to understand others

- Mirek
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Last edited by Aquila; 23 Dec 09 at 22:49..
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  #19  
Old 24 Dec 09, 07:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I accept that someone may disagree with me and believe in things that are totally wrong in my opinion. The fact that you consider Red Army soldiers as heroes do not make me angry or sad or happy. I just don't agree with you and that's all even when I consider your words as a completely false point of view. You are feeling offended when I present my point of view and I assure you, that your words can also offend eastern europeans. I know a person who would be as offended by your words as you are by mine. His family members were killed by NKVD in 1944. They were from AK. But I do not feel offended or angry, it's really not worth it.

And that's typical - says things different than I - so he must be a maniac.
I've already mentioned that the Soviet soldiers of the WWII are not just "our soldiers who fought in one of the wars". They are more than that and they are sanctified as a symbol of deliverance from the greatest theat to the Russian people in its entire history. This is what makes their memorials sacred symbols for the Russians. Of course the Poles are free to speak and think of them whatever they want. But the very fact of destroying/dismantling a memorial goes beyond the issue of simple attitude. I hope you realise this. Discussing and expressing your opinion is one thing, but real-life destruction of a symbol which is so dear to someone is entirely different. Hope you realise it.

Quote:
Maybe because their presence in Russia haven't lasted for 40 years and they haven't managed to estabilish a Nazi governement there.
Exactly, this is the point I wanted to make. Had the "cultured civilised Germans" stayed for exactly that long there wouldn't be a single Pole left. This is the little difference you don't like to recognise.

Quote:
Also there was a difference between German people and Russian.I am not a racist and I do not hate Russians (as I said before, but I'll say it again) but people from Germany (even from villages) were more civilised than people from Russian villages. Even many Poles considered Germans as a rather cultural people.
Well, in this case I can only express my regrets that the Red Army indeed marched through Poland. Probably they should've bypassed it somehow to let the Poles enjoy their lovefest with their cultured neighbours. And these people are whinging that the Red Army didn't crash into Warshaw in 1944. You should be thankful these barbarians delayed their horrible invasion while you were had a slightly heated but of course civilised argument with the Germans

Being cultured or not is a matter of perception. Some say Gypsies are only about thieving some say they are great singers and musicians. What's important is your preconception.

Quote:
One mistake - we do not have "russophobic propaganda". There are jokes about Russians, but you have the same jokes about us - and it's completely normal. But I haven't noticed any special "propaganda" aimed at you. We have many independent media and journalists, many people who likes Russians etc. It's only again the same thing - you just can't accept that for the half of the europe your soldiers are not a sacred thing. So if someone says opposite things than you - it is wrong, it's because of enemy propaganda etc.

There is no propaganda here, just the experience
Sorry man, I've been reading articles from Polish newspapers for quite a while, and 99% of them are very strongly anti-Russian (Rzeczpospolita, Gazeta Vyborca, Tygodnik Powszechny, etc). If you may say it is "just experience", but in all fairness it simply amounts to Russophobic propaganda. Remember that propaganda isn't only when a person writes just lies - he can also believe what he writes is 100% truth that he derived from his "500 years of experience".

Quote:
There's also a one interesting thing. You said "Yes, they served an inhuman regime and were all accomplices in some of the worst atrocities" while we can say the same things about Soviet soldiers. They also served an inhuman regime (communism) who commited terrible atrocities (some madeby soldiers, some by politicians). The most important thing is whether you realise it or not.
The only problem is that you present the 2 regimes as equal and that you present these soldiers as committing atrocities en masse.

Quote:
So you want me to be politically correct. All right, I can try. Osama bin Laden is a good guy, I can't say a bad thing about him or Hani Hanjour. He believed strongly that his cause was just and is praised in Afghanistan. I have to bow before photo of him just because I have to be politically correct.

Sorry, can't do that.
Nope, I'm only asking you not to hold bigoted opinions of other nations, much less parade them openly as you do here.

Quote:
What can I say? First - we are not a 12 year old kids. I am not offended so easily. My ancestors were quelling the Ukrainian Rebellion in XVII century. I am sure they killed a lot of Ukrainians and burned a lot of villages. What if some Ukrainian says "those Poles were murderers! They were stealing, raping, burning, hanging and if I were a cossack I would cut their heads off etc.!"

I would say - you're right. They were not saints though I love this history and admire our soldiers.

What if you would say "In 1610 your soldiers killed my ancestor and burned his house!"? I would say "Yeah, you're right. They were not heroes though I consider them as heroes. Because they were heroes for us, not for entire humanity. They were doing it to achieve political profits - not to make Russians happy. I won't be angry when you say that they were agressors and that you are happy that they were driven out of Moscow. I also respect those who fought then against us because they had to be brave".

And Polish-Bolshevik war and Russian prisoners? "It was outrageous! How they were treated! Murderers! They murdered my grandpa!". I would say - "of course, it was wrong. They should treat them better, much better. I consider Pilsudski as a great hero and excellent commander and I am extremely proud of our soldiers, but they are not saints and I wouldn't behave like 12 year old kid when someone says that Pokemons are stupid when a Russian would complain about soviet captured POWs. Heroes for us - villains for you. Did great things for Poland, and really bad for Russia."

See? It's really not that difficult.
This is all clear and I never disagree with this point of view. What I was trying to say is that the memorials are material symbols and their destruction is more than mere disagreement. This is why, for example, I am sorry the Soviet authorities destroyed the cemetery of the Lvov Eaglets. The difference is like between saying "I disagree with you" and slapping one's face with a glove.

Quote:
You just stubbornly can't accept and understand the fact, that they were agressors and brang us a new totalitarian regime, not "freedom". During Cold War we tasted a communist propaganda and I know that you spent almost all your life learning about "liberation of Poland". But it was certainly not a liberation

Just understand it and you'll be one step closer to understanding why I can't call Red Army soldiers "heroes". While I understand why you call them in that way, I won't call them like that myself. I really don't know how to explain it better and believe that I do whatever I can with my still not satysfying level of English
Well, frankly the people here weren't that terribly concerned about Eastern Europe. Surely they said it was liberation, but it all actually boiled down to one thing - getting every mile closer to the Nazi lair. And it didn't and doesn't matter for the Russians if these miles were on the Polish territory of Czech or Romanian, etc. Poland was just in the way. And that it was trampled in the process - well, it's sad, but whatever happened there will never detract a single bit from the honour and glory of the Russian soldiers. For the Russians, of course.


Quote:
Not exactly. My all posts here clearly say "do not accuse me of being russophobic". It says that we spent many years as your neighbour and know you a bit letter than for example Americans of French. Mutual relations were not especially good and there were many trouble times between us. In one century we were winning wars, in the other - loosing. And because we spent so many years next to each other and experienced many bad things (and made you experience many bad things so it's mutual) I just have my own point of view about Russia. But this point of view do not mean that I hate Russia and that's the point where your theory fails.
I can't say the same in all fairness. The Russians don't have any special bad feelings for the Poles. They would probablynot notice them at all if it wasn't for the persistent Polish demands to do this and that.

Quote:
In fact I'd love to go to Russia one day. I find Siberia really interesting and beautiful.
Sure, you're welcome. But I can warn you of one thing, noticed by both tourists and tour guides quite a long time ago - if you have some preconceived notions about a place and expect something bad to happen it will most probably happen. So my advice would be to shed the fear of the past and come with an open mind. Then you would really enjoy it.

Quote:
It was not really meant to be an exact comparison to the Poland, but I wrote it to present fallacy in your point of view. You also didn't answer the test - and I know why. Because such man, who saved an old lady and then robbed her just after that cannot be by any means and under any circumstances considered a hero. Maybe for other thugs, but it's not really an honor, am I right? (and again just to be clear, because you seem to be a little oversensitive about it. It's not actually a comparison of Russians to thugs right now. It is just to show you my way of thinking)
No, I just stopped answering the whole post because I considered useless to continue this conversation.

Quote:
And it was a naive statement, because I can't see any reason to say that Poland was "kicked in the butt etc." Poles managed to live after that and still conditions of living were better here than in Russia even in those dark, red times.
I meant that Poland as a nationalistic strongly anti-Russian state ceased to exist.

Quote:
Actually I bought a nice huge book about AK fighting against Russians for my father for Christmas They ceased to exist because most of them decided that war is over. Those who fought agains communism were dommed already because there was too few of them. But I believe that any "intervention" in Poland would be much harder for you than in Hungary or Czechoslovakia. We have experience in fighting in uprisings
But this only proves that the Soviet Union, by means of sticks and carrots, managed to stabilise the situation in Poland - something the Nazi Germany couldn't because of their ideological stance.

Quote:
Oh, it is achievable even now. Just stop saying lies like "There are doubts that Katyn was indeed a Russian war crime or not". Yes, Yeltsin apologised and that was very nice of him, and should end this part of history, but when Poland says something Russia don't want to hear or do what Russia do not like there's always a response like this Not to mention your "historian" who says that we planned to attack Russia together with Hitler and that you signed Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty to defend themselves
Well, point one is that the state has officially recognised Katyn as a Soviet crime. There are 2 memorials in Katyn and Mednoe. There's even a memorial to the Poles murdered in the Stalin's Great Terror of 1936-38 just to the north of St.Petersburg in Levashovo http://visz.nlr.ru/eng/pm/levashovo/...g.php?n=poland
Point two is that these doubts weren't expressed officially and in fact you should be glad they are expressed here for it is a testament to the existence of free speech in our society. I don't lend much credence to these claims, but they have their right to say it. Just like there are some journalists who hold the same opinions of the Soviet soldiers as you and publish them in their newspapers and blogs.

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Easy? Seems so. But not here, because "Red Army soldiers are sacred and we will not tolerate any other point of view!"

Battles lasted for few months. After that civilians lost their last defence and were hopeless. Germans were killing citizens of the entire villages, sending people to concentration camps and executing as a revenge for AK's actions. We weren't sending millions of troops for certain death by ordering them to run at german machinegun nests and wait until they run out of ammo, but life in occupied Poland was not especially pleasant.
Well, we have all rights to dislike those who dislike our values. But as I've already said, direct offense on the physical embodiment of these values is something different.

You're repeating some old myths here - but they have been addressed too many times on this forum and we're going offtopic. I know that the Germans carried out punitive raids in Poland and arrested civilians but the thing is that the intensity these atrocities was much higher when the war was going on in the SU and the frontline was very close.

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And I dare to say that this war (in your territory and partially our - captured in 1939) is entirely your fault. You decided to ally with devil, you decided to help him and attack us so you simply deserved it. And also your army was rather incompetent in 1940-1941 so it was a clear invitation for Germans.
The SU was pushed (and most probably deliberately pushed) into this alliance by France and Great Britain which didn't want to conclude any kind of reasonable pact with Stalin. He simply had no option but to follow the old rule of "if you can't beat him, join him". This is all sad, but no more sad than the Munich agreement. Poland also used Hitler's generosity back then and picked a crumb from his table.

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Yes, that was your excuse to cowardly attack us after Hitler sent a false message that Warsaw was captured (actually they had big problems with it then) But our governement survived (until 1989! that's awesome and very inspiring), we had an underground army (one of the biggest in history and it was also keeping some German soldiers in Poland and blowing up trains thus helping you in some way. It was also a huge and very strong force and that's why you feared it so much), underground justice, underground schools and universities, underground special agents, never shamed ourselves with something like Vichy, Quisling or Русская освободительная народная армия and still figthing with an (if I am correct) army on almost all fronts (Poland, Norway, France, England, Africa, Eastern Europe, Italy, again France, Holland, Germany) and fourth in size after Russians, Americans and British. Polish state was rather well, despite the most unfortunate situation. The only reason your propaganda was against our underground and govt. in exile is that you had your own, evil plans about this part of Europe
Believe me, the Soviet Union was quite able to take on Poland on its own. The only reason it attacked on September 17 was that the Polish government ran away - in this case it was able to invade it without causing an international incident. If you remember, the SU was expelled from the League of Nations only when it invaded Finland 2 months later, so the Polish campaign looked okay in the eyes of the international community.

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I would say - stunning achievement when I think that US is a lot younger! Just don't say that you are offended by this also. The purpose of this sig is to prevent such false accusations of russophobia. As we see - it didn't work.
It's just a comparison. It's interesting you left the Jewish part out. The Poles also have a troubled history of relationship with them, n'est ce pas?

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Well, today is Christmas in Poland so I won't probably visit this forum for few days. I'd like to wish you all, and right now especially ShAA and other Russians here a Happy life and may you find whatever you seek - love, friendship, interesting people, happiness, adventure...

And also a will to understand others

- Mirek
I can only join you in this wish

- Sasha


P.S. By the way, here's a related article

http://blog.rp.pl/haszczynski/2009/1...l-saakaszwili/
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