HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War > Naval Warfare

Notices and Announcements

Naval Warfare A place to discuss all things Naval!

View Poll Results: Which Navy is more capable?
Chinese Navy 7 30.43%
Indian Navy 16 69.57%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03 Dec 09, 16:37
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,423
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
Indian Navy vs Chinese Navy

Which Navy is more capable?
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 03 Dec 09, 16:48
Thunder Dome's Avatar
Thunder Dome Thunder Dome is offline
Banned
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kingman
Posts: 2,441
Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100]
From what perspective?

Firepower?

Aviation?

Logistics tail?

Submarines?

Mines and anti Mining capabilities?


Tech and electronic hardware and capabilities; radars jammers etc.?

Potential sales and acquistion of RDA from friendlies?

Allied or quasi-allied status with the USA?


Many caveats there to consider. But in a quick summation i'll go with the Indians.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03 Dec 09, 16:55
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,423
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Dome View Post
From what perspective?
In every perspective that is vital to the government it serves.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03 Dec 09, 17:02
Thunder Dome's Avatar
Thunder Dome Thunder Dome is offline
Banned
United_States
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Kingman
Posts: 2,441
Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100] Thunder Dome has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Well then based on my appreciation of those sub-categories i cited above; which certainly would fit your last-I stand with my former post.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09 Dec 09, 02:27
The Exorcist's Avatar
The Exorcist The Exorcist is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon CWiE 1939-45 Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oregon
Posts: 19,712
The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Exorcist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
At the rate China is modernizing and expanding, the lead is looking shaky, but India get my vote.

For now.
__________________
Q.E.D.

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09 Dec 09, 07:54
Slim's Avatar
Slim Slim is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,122
Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100]
India squandered some very good opportunities when it almost stopped ordering warships in the 90s and it shipyards are very disorganized and ineffecient and to top it off Indian leadership have very little interest or understanding of military matters. On the other hand China has some of the largest Ship building capacity, they have worked tirelessly and with a determination that is hard to beat which is now bearing fruits.

I still feel India has a smaller but technologically superior and more effecient Navy. China on the other hand is saddled with a far larger percentage of obsolete vessels.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09 Dec 09, 10:07
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,423
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
For those who claimed the Indian navy having technological superiority to the Chinese Navy: In what ways is it? My argument is contrary. I happen to believe that the Chinese Navy has greater technological superiority than the Indian Navy.

Consider the following:

Both navies fairly rely on Russian technology to outfit their warships. However, the India has a greater portion of its fleet built in Russian shipyards, while most of China's fleet are built in domestic shipyards, except the 4 Sovremenny's.

While China does have a large number of obsolescent warships, the Luda Classes, they are on their way out and are being replaced by Type 054 Frigates, which are in the process of being mass produced.

China also has superior anti-aircraft suite on their surface fleet, with the 052C being equiped with Chinese copies of the S-300 SAMs, the 051C equipped with Russian S-300 SAMS, 052B with SA-N-12 Gadfly Sams.

The Indian Navy's most modern frigates, the Russian built Talwar Class, are similarly equipped as the PLAN's 052B with the SA-N-12 SAMS.

Then there is the issue of China being on its second generation of SSNs, while India is still on the prototype.

I could write more but it is better to show you.

Chinese Order of Battle
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/vessel.asp

Indian Order of Battle
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Submarines.html

Last edited by IDonT4; 09 Dec 09 at 10:11..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09 Dec 09, 10:18
Cicero's Avatar
Cicero Cicero is offline
General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
 
Real Name: Daniel
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Great State of Texas
Posts: 4,046
Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300] Cicero is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
At the rate China is modernizing and expanding, the lead is looking shaky, but India get my vote.

For now.
China is good in Chinese waters next to a huge land-based air-force. But if I had to pick a fleet to send to the Falklands (or some other naval expedition away from my own already controlled beaches), I would want the Indian Navy.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09 Dec 09, 11:09
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,423
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
China is good in Chinese waters next to a huge land-based air-force. But if I had to pick a fleet to send to the Falklands (or some other naval expedition away from my own already controlled beaches), I would want the Indian Navy.
I think attrition levels of the Indian Shar have let their numbers dangerously low.

You are right that the lack of an aircraft carrier is a detriment to the Chinese Navy. Currently, they are in the process of getting one.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09 Dec 09, 19:07
Slim's Avatar
Slim Slim is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,122
Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100]
[QUOTE=IDonT4;1375175]For those who claimed the Indian navy having technological superiority to the Chinese Navy: In what ways is it? My argument is contrary. I happen to believe that the Chinese Navy has greater technological superiority than the Indian Navy.

Consider the following:

Both navies fairly rely on Russian technology to outfit their warships. However, the India has a greater portion of its fleet built in Russian shipyards, while most of China's fleet are built in domestic shipyards, except the 4 Sovremenny's.

While China does have a large number of obsolescent warships, the Luda Classes, they are on their way out and are being replaced by Type 054 Frigates, which are in the process of being mass produced.

China also has superior anti-aircraft suite on their surface fleet, with the 052C being equiped with Chinese copies of the S-300 SAMs, the 051C equipped with Russian S-300 SAMS, 052B with SA-N-12 Gadfly Sams.

The Indian Navy's most modern frigates, the Russian built Talwar Class, are similarly equipped as the PLAN's 052B with the SA-N-12 SAMS.

Then there is the issue of China being on its second generation of SSNs, while India is still on the prototype.

I could write more but it is better to show you.

Chinese Order of Battle
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/vessel.asp

Indian Order of Battle
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Submarines.html[/QUOTE]


You cannot judge a warship just on its weapons suite. There are the Radars, the ECMS, the sonars, the electronics and so on. India has made substantial progress in all these fields to the point that many of its current warships have indegenous components which are superior to russian counterparts. To top it off India has access to many state of the art western and israeli systems. Indian warships have trended to have russian weapon systems upto this point but it also has a liberal dousing of french italian, israeli indegenous and german systems. Even with regard to weapon systems this trend of russsian weaponary is fast disappearing for eg Its P-15A destroyers which will start entering service in 2010 have minimal russian weapon system. All the SAMS are either Israeli or -Indo israeli joint products. Its torpedoes are Indian. Its Helos will be western. The ssm is a joint Indo Russian product. Its New AC will have substantial features from italian and french sources. Its Neww SSKs are french. It will induct 8(with an option for afurther 8 )Boeing P-8 poseiden LRMP ac.
Indian Sea Harrier fleet has indeed declined considerably from a high of 30 to the present 11-12 and that may pose problems. Because the next ACs capable of operating Mig-29Ks will not be commissioned till atleast 2012.

Last edited by Slim; 09 Dec 09 at 19:30..
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 09 Dec 09, 19:16
Slim's Avatar
Slim Slim is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,122
Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IDonT4 View Post
I think attrition levels of the Indian Shar have let their numbers dangerously low.

You are right that the lack of an aircraft carrier is a detriment to the Chinese Navy. Currently, they are in the process of getting one.


You are very correct. However the Indian Chief of Naval Staff has just hinted that India's second AC will be much larger(50,000tons +) than the first(40,000 tons) and may have steam catapults.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/St...avy+chief.html

Also IN Navy is set to double its naval land based aviation assets in the next few years. It is also projected to increase its surface fleet strength from the curren 120 to 160 major vessels within the next 8 years.

I seriously doubt the Chinese Navy's ability to procure anything close to a steam catapult, Boeing p-8 poseidein, Scorpene ssk, GM-lM-2500 turbines or the Barak-2 SAM to name just a few.

Last edited by Slim; 09 Dec 09 at 19:26..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09 Dec 09, 22:37
Ogukuo72's Avatar
Ogukuo72 Ogukuo72 is offline
General of the Forums
Singapore
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 5,924
Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600]
Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600]
Yep. The problem is that no one really wants to sell to the Chinese because, before you know it, cheap knock-offs of your systems are being marketed around the world.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09 Dec 09, 22:44
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,423
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
Lets discuss radars then.

Both fleets most modern surface combatant of both navies.

Radar:
Delhi: MR-775 Fregat MAE (NATO: Half Plate)
051C: Fregat-MAE-5 (NATO reporting name: Top Plate)
Talwar: Fregat M2EM (NATO: Top Plate)
052C: Four multifunction phased array radar antenna
052B: Fregat-MAE-5 (NATO reporting name: Top Plate)

Advantage: China

India may have access to western systems but they are not choosing it yet. The task of welding together Western, Israeli, and Russian systems have wreck havoc on their logisitics and maintainance.

The Indian naval build up is partly composed of ship purchases from Russia supplemented by local shipyards. In that regards, they are still dependant on third party support for all of their weapon systems and electronics.

PLAN naval build up concentrates on acquiring the technology and capability to build up their ships. They can build the ship from hull to weapons system without thrid party help. You can see this on the ships they have comissioned in the last 15 years, starting with the Luhu class.

Speaking of shipyards, the Indian shipbuilding capability is poor compared to the Chinese. It took the Indian shipyards 9 years to build the Delhi class. The follow on Kolkata class is scheduled to be comissioned in 2012, a full 9 years since it was laid down in 2003. Furthermore, they have a problem on handling building large vessels. Other construction includes the Shivalik class frigates, with 2 currently building.

The Chinese shipyards since 2000 have constructed 6 Destroyers in 3 different class, 10 Frigates in 2 classes, 40 fast attack craft, one LPD, 9 LSTs, and 2 ocean going fleet logistics ships,
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09 Dec 09, 22:47
IDonT4's Avatar
IDonT4 IDonT4 is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Coast
Posts: 2,423
IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200] IDonT4 is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
Yep. The problem is that no one really wants to sell to the Chinese because, before you know it, cheap knock-offs of your systems are being marketed around the world.
Western countries will not sell to China because it is still under arms embargo that dated from the Tiananmen Square massacre.

Russia has no choice because with out CHina, their arms sales revenues fall by 50 percent. But yes, China has taken liberties of stealing Russian design and calling it their own. On some occasions, it is better than the origina.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10 Dec 09, 00:03
Slim's Avatar
Slim Slim is offline
Brigadier General
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,122
Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100] Slim has demonstrated strength of character [100]
[QUOTE=IDonT4;1375669

The Indian naval build up is partly composed of ship purchases from Russia supplemented by local shipyards. In that regards, they are still dependant on third party support for all of their weapon systems and electronics.

PLAN naval build up concentrates on acquiring the technology and capability to build up their ships. They can build the ship from hull to weapons system without thrid party help. You can see this on the ships they have comissioned in the last 15 years, starting with the Luhu class.

Speaking of shipyards, the Indian shipbuilding capability is poor compared to the Chinese. It took the Indian shipyards 9 years to build the Delhi class. The follow on Kolkata class is scheduled to be comissioned in 2012, a full 9 years since it was laid down in 2003. Furthermore, they have a problem on handling building large vessels. Other construction includes the Shivalik class frigates, with 2 currently building.

The Chinese shipyards since 2000 have constructed 6 Destroyers in 3 different class, 10 Frigates in 2 classes, 40 fast attack craft, one LPD, 9 LSTs, and 2 ocean going fleet logistics ships,[/QUOTE]



Indian Naval shipyards are notoriously slow and ineffecient, however upto this point there were two few of them. Currently 4 major shipyards have been converted or are in the process of being converted from commercial to military construction.This is in addition to the already existing military shipyards of MDL. GRSE, and Goa
- Hindustan Shipyard---------Ssn/ssbn construction.
-Larsen and Turbo at Hazira
-Cochin---Aircraft Carrier
--New unnamed in the state of Tamil nadu.

In addition Both Mdl and Grse are being extensively modernised and updated including Modular shipbuilding and Pontoon assisted launch.Much of the future shipbuilding will be undertaken by private shipyards like larson and Turbo
You are right about the delays however the delays are not entirely the shipyards fault. However I will have to correct some common misconceptions
--The delhis were delayed due to delay in supply of russian weaponary the soviet union had just fallen apart after the delhis started.
---The Shivaliks were delayed due to a major redesign halfway through the construction process and delay caused in the LM-2500 engines due to beurocratic hassles since the Bush admin had just been replaced by the obama admin and there were additional reviews and scrutinies by the obama administration.Two of the Shivaliks are undergoing the last legs of their sea trials.
--The first Kolkota is expected to be commisioned in 2010 and the last in 2012.

Last edited by Slim; 10 Dec 09 at 00:29..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 23:21.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.