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Europe Issues of modern Europe. .

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  #16  
Old 06 Aug 04, 03:19
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Alcohol doesn't kill people people kill people! Same argument, ive drank alcohol since i was 14, ive never killed anyone or put myself in a position where the affects of alcohol would be a danger to anyone else. To blame alcohol for driving a car dangerously is crap, the driver should have never made the decision to drive. Ive been extremely pissed more times than i can remember but my brain is still able to function and knows that i should not be driving. Alcohol doesnt make people do anything, an asshole who drives drunk is an asshole.

Anyone who blames a drug on their actions is just trying to evade responsibility, the same way some will claim their actions are caused by upbringing or experiences, in the end it is the person that is to blame for their actions no matter what.
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  #17  
Old 06 Aug 04, 06:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah772
Alcohol is one of VERY few exceptions. I think it serves no good purpose other than getting one drunk and intoxicated to do something incredibly stupid that may cost one's and another's lives.

I don't buy crap about medical properties of alcohol. I don't believe in that, it's something that is horrible and deadly.

...........

So, please, don't use these silly arguments on me, I've heard these before, it's getting a bit old to me. I don't buy any of it. Alcohol is out for me and it should be out for you as well.

Dan
I understand that stating my views will not make it past the roadblock of a hardened right-wing conservative head, but here it goes...

The difference between alcohol consumption in Europe and here in the states is that children in Europe are taught from an early age to consume alcohol in moderation. As such, for a European teenager, drinking beer or wine is just "another part of life" and no big deal. With a drinking age of 21 here in the states, an American teenager sees drinking alcohol as a taboo - a forbidden action that is used to rebel against parents and authority figures. As such, American teenagers don't learn to drink in moderation and that's where problems arise.

Unfortunately for America, alcohol consumption will continue to be a problem whether the drinking age is lowered or done away with altogether. As a society, Americans aren't equiped with the same view of alcohol as Europeans and it would be a few generations before moderate alcohol consumption became a way of life. Banning alcohol completely is certainly not an option for America, look at our own history - the Prohibition. It didn't work back then and it won't work now.

As to the medical properties of alcohol, well, I was able to spend ten extra years with my grandfather who was proscribed a can of beer a day for his heart. He stopped taking heart medications and switched to the beer and his heart condition actually improved! But, like all medical treatments, what works for one person may not work for another, so I'm not condoning that all people with heart conditions should drink beer - just that it owrked for my grandfather.

Ok, got that off my chest. Whew!
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  #18  
Old 06 Aug 04, 08:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblin
What makes no sense to me is that they will hand a machinegun or grenade launcher to someone that they will not trust with a beer. The drinking age should be lowered.


Goblin
Well, good point that is... (though, If I got my AK few people would object to me buying a beer, I guess)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah772
Hello,

Good riddance to those who drink alcohol.

I wish alcohol can be banned from this world forever. I've seen what it can do to bodies. I know a couple of students who were killed in car accidents, because of alcohol involved.

Before you rush out that I am far too puritanical, let me say this, I believe alcohol should be banned WAY BEFORE I became a born-again Christian. As mentioned above, the one of car accidents took place when I was in seventh grade. Another occurred during my high school.

It was a tragic day, and what's even worse is that the drunk driver was alive, not something he deserved anyway.

So people who are in favor of alcohol seriously should examine their heads more closely.

Dan
Well, Dan that is not generally a problem of Alcohol but people who not think about what they do.
If I am drinking I generally don't drive, but I definately would not take some buddies with me, and they may scream about it as much as they want.

So in coherance with your answers to Martin Schenkel's post alcohol does not kill people! The only way of getting killed by alcohol is drinking too much of it, so someone who does not drink can't be killed by it.

On the other hand people motivated by "religous" motives do indeed kill people who are not religous at all...
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  #19  
Old 06 Aug 04, 11:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah772

I wish alcohol can be banned from this world forever. I've seen what it can do to bodies. I know a couple of students who were killed in car accidents, because of alcohol involved.
I know about people who died in car accidents due to high speed with no alcohol mixed in the accident. Maybe we should ban cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah772

Before you rush out that I am far too puritanical, let me say this, I believe alcohol should be banned WAY BEFORE I became a born-again Christian.
Being a Christian can make you think again about the good of alcohol: Jesus turned water into wine but never did the opposite. (Jn 2,1)

IMO alcohol, as everything, must be used properly. I enjoy a good meal with a glass of wine and I like having a drink (rhum or whisky for example) when meeting my friends but I never have been drunk. It is just a matter of not drinking too much. In Spain we say sometimes "don't drink if you don't know how to piss"
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  #20  
Old 06 Aug 04, 11:01
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i'm sure it's not worse than drinking coca-cola
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  #21  
Old 06 Aug 04, 14:47
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From a country western song currently popular in the U.S. ...

- - - - - - -
We watched him drink his pain away a little at a time,
but he never could get drunk enough to get her off his mind.
Until the night he put that bottle to his head and pulled the trigger,
and finally drank away her memory.
...
And when we buried him beneath the willow,
the angels sang a whisky lullaby.
- - - - - - -

"he put that bottle to his head and pulled the trigger" - now that is a great country western lyric.
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  #22  
Old 06 Aug 04, 16:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah772
Alcohol is one of VERY few exceptions. I think it serves no good purpose other than getting one drunk and intoxicated to do something incredibly stupid that may cost one's and another's lives.
That's only if you drink too much, Dan. As with most things in life, too much of anything isn't good. I believe in moderation, and a single small glass of wine with your dinner dosen't hurt anybody or anything. In fact in can greatly enhance the experience, such as a properly cooked authentic Italian dinner 'requires' an authentic Italian wine, etc. If I drink alcohol reponsibly and don't hurt anyone in the process, you have no right to limit my enjoyment and impose your morals. The majority of people who consume alcohol aren't idiots who drink and drive, or get pissed drunk and go on murderous rampages. The key is responsability, and for people to think intelligently and rationally.
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  #23  
Old 09 Aug 04, 03:20
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Just a few interesting facts.

Denmark has got the european record of teen drinking.
Half of the 12 year olds has tried alcohol.

40% of 15 year olds has been drunk within the last month.

Each dane from 14 years upwards do on average consume 11,5 liters of pure alcohol every year (8,3 liters in the US).

20% of the danes consume 75% of the total consumption.

Every second admission to a surgical departement is alcohol-related.

Alcohol-related diseases is the third most common cause of death after smoke-related and obesity-related diseases.

1-2 units of alcohol on a daily basis lowers the risk of death from cardiac disease 20-30%.



I have friends that as youngsters got pissed all the time, and now need normal lives. But I also have friends who are unable to keep a job and feel unfullfilled in their lives, unless they get pissed three times a week.

The dilemma remains. How do we as society promote the idea of modest consumption, while restricting alcohol abuse?
Daily rations?
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  #24  
Old 09 Aug 04, 05:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasmus
How do we as society promote the idea of modest consumption, while restricting alcohol abuse?
Daily rations?
How do you prevent people from driving faster than allowed ?

How do you prevent people from using legally bought firearms to commit a crime?

How do you prevent people from smoking to much?

How do you prevent people from spending more money than they earn?

How do you prevent parents from neglecting their children ?

How dou you prevent people from hating others just because of their skin color?

How do you prevent peaople from taking what's not theirs?

As soon as you have answered all these questions in a convenient and convincing way I'll anwser your question ASAP
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  #25  
Old 09 Aug 04, 08:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraut
How do you prevent people from driving faster than allowed ?

How do you prevent people from using legally bought firearms to commit a crime?

How do you prevent people from smoking to much?

How do you prevent people from spending more money than they earn?

How do you prevent parents from neglecting their children ?

How dou you prevent people from hating others just because of their skin color?

How do you prevent peaople from taking what's not theirs?

As soon as you have answered all these questions in a convenient and convincing way I'll anwser your question ASAP


You educate them.
Not mathematics and physics and computer science... Philosophy and history etc.
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  #26  
Old 09 Aug 04, 09:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autir
You educate them.
Well, did it work?
Do we now live in a world without crime, without heavily indebtet families, without street-rambos, with only perfect parents, ...
just because people know what's right and what's wrong ?
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  #27  
Old 09 Aug 04, 09:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraut
Well, did it work?
Do we now live in a world without crime, without heavily indebtet families, without street-rambos, with only perfect parents, ...
just because people know what's right and what's wrong ?
We know sh**.
We can construct intergrated electronic circuits and we send shuttles to other planets and we develop weapons able to destroy our planet and we mess with our genetic material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by autir
Not mathematics and physics and computer science... Philosophy and history etc.


Big deal.
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  #28  
Old 12 Aug 04, 14:09
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These are all good questions and I

will try to answer them below. But the real question should be:
How do you make people accept the measures that are necessary if we wish to prevent all these things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraut
How do you prevent people from driving faster than allowed ?

Electronic speed controls in cars hooked up to GPS satelites.

How do you prevent people from using legally bought firearms to commit a crime?

Ban firearms. In this way no LEGALLY bought firearms will be used .

How do you prevent people from smoking to much?

Ban smoking and establish patrols armed with foam fire extinguishers.

How do you prevent people from spending more money than they earn?
You take from the rich and give to the poor. A man can only spend so much every day.

How do you prevent parents from neglecting their children ?
Forced parenting licenses, which can be revoked.

How dou you prevent people from hating others just because of their skin color?
Just make it a law that the above mentioned licenses can only be given to someone breeding with a person with a different skin colour. Give it a few generations and VOILA.


How do you prevent peaople from taking what's not theirs?
Ban private property.

As soon as you have answered all these questions in a convenient and convincing way I'll anwser your question ASAP
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  #29  
Old 13 Aug 04, 10:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasmus
These are all good questions and I

will try to answer them below. But the real question should be:
How do you make people accept the measures that are necessary if we wish to prevent all these things.

Well, nice answers Rasmus...

especially like the stop smoking idea...
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  #30  
Old 17 Aug 04, 19:15
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Rasmus, I would die to know your Political Compass rating...
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