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  #1  
Old 22 Sep 09, 09:28
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Question The Immigration Problem in Europe

How big is it?
How bad is it?
Which countries are dealing with it effectively?
What is the EU doing about it?

I ran accross this during my morning reading;

French police bulldoze immigrant camp near Calais

By NICOLAS GARRIGA, Associated Press Writer Nicolas Garriga, Associated Press Writer – 30 mins ago
Quote:
CALAIS, France – French police cleared out, then bulldozed, a squalid forest camp near the northern city of Calais on Tuesday, detaining hundreds of illegal immigrants who had hoped to slip across the English Channel into Britain.

French Immigration Minister Eric Besson called the site — known as "the Jungle" — a "base camp for human traffickers" who promise the migrants passage for enormous fees or dump them there after bringing them across Europe.
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  #2  
Old 22 Sep 09, 09:39
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Between 4.5 and 8 million illegal immigrants work in the construction, farming, hotel and other sectors in the EU.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...96&language=RO
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  #3  
Old 22 Sep 09, 13:58
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Immigration is not a bad thing. Hell I love some of the workers we used to get in (Poles case in point) Always on time, actually they wheren ormally early for work. and always where polite and did their job.
The Problem seems to be they're all making a beeline for the UK. That camp is case in point. Rules are quite clear, you must seek asylum in the first safe country you arrive at. not travel through umpteen countries to try and get into the UK.

Our problem seems to be an over adherence to the human rights lawyers and seeming inability to enforce our Immigration laws. So we're seen as a soft touch. I'm glad to see that France is finally pulling its finger out instead of fast tracking them to Calais so they can hop on over here.
Another part of the problem seems to be out benefits culture (Note: I'll quite happily rant about the work-shy scum who where born here and sit outside the DSS drinking white lightning).

So I'd say the UK isn't dealing with it very well. the recent trend of voting for the BNP shows that its seen as a major issue. With all the main parties sticking their heads in the sand. As soon as they raise the subject, the other parties (and carious groups) will start screaming about racism, and the party looks bad. Its gotten to the point where any discussion is met with cries of Racists. And yet the UK population need and want a discussion on the subject, No one will oblige, so more people vote for the BNP.
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  #4  
Old 22 Sep 09, 17:10
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What do you mean with imigration problem? The number of illegal imigrants? The treatment of illegal imigrants? The integration into the host country of legal imigrants?
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Old 22 Sep 09, 17:14
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According to what I have read Muslims are 10% of the French population. That's not the problem: the problem is that Muslim account for *30%* of all French children. Demographics is destiny, and that destiny is civil war followed by ethnic cleasing.

Immigrants are always dangerous unless they (and their chidren) are assimilating. The Europeans don't understand this: there is no room for French Arabs, only Frenchmen of Arab stock. Regardless, the Immigrants see the West as decadent and dying, so why should they assimilate? Unless the Frenchmen want Sharia in Paris or a French Granada based in Marsailles, ethnic cleansing is the only way to go that will allow the French to retain their state and thus control of their destinies.
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Old 22 Sep 09, 18:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
According to what I have read Muslims are 10% of the French population. That's not the problem: the problem is that Muslim account for *30%* of all French children. Demographics is destiny, and that destiny is civil war followed by ethnic cleasing.

Immigrants are always dangerous unless they (and their chidren) are assimilating. The Europeans don't understand this: there is no room for French Arabs, only Frenchmen of Arab stock. Regardless, the Immigrants see the West as decadent and dying, so why should they assimilate? Unless the Frenchmen want Sharia in Paris or a French Granada based in Marsailles, ethnic cleansing is the only way to go that will allow the French to retain their state and thus control of their destinies.
Of course the US doesn't have such a problem.

Make sure your own door step is clean before pointing out the dust in front of the neighbors
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Old 22 Sep 09, 18:37
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Originally Posted by Half Pint View Post
Make sure your own door step is clean before pointing out the dust in front of the neighbors
Or stop worrying over make believe problems?
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Old 22 Sep 09, 18:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
According to what I have read Muslims are 10% of the French population. That's not the problem: the problem is that Muslim account for *30%* of all French children. Demographics is destiny, and that destiny is civil war followed by ethnic cleasing.

Immigrants are always dangerous unless they (and their chidren) are assimilating. The Europeans don't understand this: there is no room for French Arabs, only Frenchmen of Arab stock. Regardless, the Immigrants see the West as decadent and dying, so why should they assimilate? Unless the Frenchmen want Sharia in Paris or a French Granada based in Marsailles, ethnic cleansing is the only way to go that will allow the French to retain their state and thus control of their destinies.

I think your tin-foil hat may be bent out of shape. Really, you make me laugh with such posting. Thanks for the comic relief anyway.
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Old 22 Sep 09, 19:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
According to what I have read Muslims are 10% of the French population. That's not the problem: the problem is that Muslim account for *30%* of all French children. Demographics is destiny, and that destiny is civil war followed by ethnic cleasing.

Immigrants are always dangerous unless they (and their chidren) are assimilating. The Europeans don't understand this: there is no room for French Arabs, only Frenchmen of Arab stock. Regardless, the Immigrants see the West as decadent and dying, so why should they assimilate? Unless the Frenchmen want Sharia in Paris or a French Granada based in Marsailles, ethnic cleansing is the only way to go that will allow the French to retain their state and thus control of their destinies.
30% of the French Children are Muslim? That's one hell of an interesting stat.

And demographics is fun...

Now, France has a population of 64+ million. Approx. 5-7% of it is Muslim. There's that margin of error since the secular French republic doesn't actually keep too close tabs on what its citizens gets up to.

Anyhow that makes for between 3.2 and 4.5 million French Muslims.

Now the crude number of births in France in 2008 was 855.000. France clocks in at a reasonably respectable birth rate of 1.98 children per woman.

If 30% of those births are Muslim, that's 255.000 Muslim children born in France in 2008.
(I keep harping on 2008 since that's the latest stat at the Eurostat homepage:
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/por...ta/main_tables)

This gives a birth rate for the French Muslim population somewhere between 8 and 12 children/woman. That's no mean feat considering the worlds highest current national birth rate is Niger's, which is just over 7.

It's even more amazing considering the bulk of the French Muslims hail from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, which have birthrates of 2.34, 2.33 and 1.89 respectively (yes, the Tunisian birthrate is lower than the French).
http://www.gapminder.org/

I.e. out of the old country the French Muslims jack up their birthrate between 3,5 and 6+ times, easily becoming the world's currently most fertile population segment.

That is, unless those 30% wasn't just a figure someone pulled out of his ass, since it looked all alarming and cool.
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Old 22 Sep 09, 19:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
30% of the French Children are Muslim? That's one hell of an interesting stat.

And demographics is fun...
Outstanding!
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Old 22 Sep 09, 21:51
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Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
What do you mean with imigration problem? The number of illegal imigrants? The treatment of illegal imigrants? The integration into the host country of legal imigrants?
I found the linked story interesting and immigration by illegal means is a big topic here. You've already touched on three different ways to look at the question. Are any of them considered important political issues in Germany right now?
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Old 22 Sep 09, 22:12
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Cant really say.... since we cant in France create stats based on race or religions...

But 6 or 7% seems a good estimation.
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Old 22 Sep 09, 22:23
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@Johan Baner

When the standard of living increase, birthrate usually decrease. Something should happen with Muslim families. By the the same they quit poor cities and move to richer neighbourhood...

This is an optimistic evaluation. A more pessimistic one is that too much Muslims families keep themselves together, in conservatives ideology.
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Old 23 Sep 09, 02:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
@Johan Baner

When the standard of living increase, birthrate usually decrease. Something should happen with Muslim families. By the the same they quit poor cities and move to richer neighbourhood...

This is an optimistic evaluation. A more pessimistic one is that too much Muslims families keep themselves together, in conservatives ideology.
Then we're talking integration.

That's actually a bit tricky to assess in France, since the Republic doesn't really care for registering census data along ethnic lines, as not to make distinctions between citizens and citizens.

Still, the Pew Research Organisation tracks things like integration of various religious groups across the world. They put out a report in 2006 where they had been polling Muslims all over Europe. One of the things asked was whether Muslims in different countries wanted to remain a distinct group, or if the wanted to "adopt national customs" of their new country. A self-professed 78% of the French Muslims put down wanting to adopt French national customs, i.e. laicité and whatnot. Only 22% wanted to remain a distinct Muslim community.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=254

Since we agree the French Muslim community amounts to up to 7%, that's 4,5 million people. Of these only 22% self-professed want to remain distinct, and would be the group actually keeping to themselves in a conservative religious tradition, possibly including large broods of children. That's a group of about 1 million people.

Don't get me wrong. There's not really much call for complacency, and a cool million people is rather a lot. Only in relation to the total French population of 64 million, it amounts to 1,5%.

I.e., there aren't really hordes of conservative Muslims breeding like rabbits to take over France. (Not that you yourself have made such a claim, but it seems the gist of previous posters.) The vast majority of French Muslims are quite reasonable. They are for one the only Muslim community in the world where the vast majority (71%) actually view Jews positively.

And I can recommend reading the Pew Reports on these issues in response to the OP in general.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/
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Old 23 Sep 09, 03:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Anyhow that makes for between 3.2 and 4.5 million French Muslims.

Now the crude number of births in France in 2008 was 855.000. France clocks in at a reasonably respectable birth rate of 1.98 children per woman.

If 30% of those births are Muslim, that's 255.000 Muslim children born in France in 2008.

This gives a birth rate for the French Muslim population somewhere between 8 and 12 children/woman. That's no mean feat considering the worlds highest current national birth rate is Niger's, which is just over 7.
If there are 4 million Muslims and we consider half of them to be women and half of those women to be at reproductive age, we get 1 million women. I don't see how 255,000 children born from a population of 1 million birth-givers gives a birth rate of 8-12/Muslim woman.
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