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  #16  
Old 12 Sep 09, 09:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vita View Post
Hi, can anyone explain to me why? Like, why did they do 9/11? What made them do 9/11?

Thanks!
It's cultural, it's political, it's social and it's religious. (Different levenings of each for each ME Country, Tribe and Region in the area. Arena?)

I think the original "turning point" was the UN Mandate to create the State of Israel after WWII. With typical UN avoidance of responsibility, they left Israel to fend for themselves as virtually every border Nation with Israel tried to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

With some help from the US, a whole lot of Arab Nations were somewhat embarrassed over getting their collective butts beat in that war and subsequent efforts over the years since. The perception is, of course, that the US was responsible for all these defeats, logistically, if no other reason.

That is true to a point, but it has been the Israelis who have done the fighting, outfought and out Generaled many an Arab Army. It is almost prerequisite in a Nation that gets "beaten" on the field of battle repeatedly, that it CANNOT be just the little start up Nation of Israel that is whipping them, therefore the US gets the rap (primarily) and other "decadent" Western Nations get second place in the "group hate". As in.... OUR interference caused the mighty Arab Armies to get beaten.

If it weren't for that and the Western interest in "protecting" the oil supplies, I suspect the Western Nations would give about as much attention to the ME as it gives Sub Saraha Africa. (Lip service but little else.)

But trying to fathom ALL the ins and outs of the ME in a forum like this..... Wow! Just too much "history" in the area to summarize it easily. Ya REALLY have to do some reading to even begin to get the drift of things over there.

The above is just my "take" on it..... I was Military for 20 years, so natch, I take a primarily military point of view of the area. I'm sure you can find a myriad of books that take primarily other points of view just as easily. (... and "spun" both ways, Israel victim, Arabs victim..... depends on writer and "motive")

Good luck, many a "wise Statesman" for over two generations have been trying to "sort out" the problem, they have made only marginal success.

..... and the US gets the "rap" for nothing more than a continued effort to bring peace to the region. Oh well, the best intentions are often negated and limited by unintended consequences. (Our Congress is EXPERT in that aspect of Legislative efforts.)

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  #17  
Old 12 Sep 09, 10:01
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Equal opportunity hatred.

Why do Muslims hate the US?

Perhaps that is the wrong question - rather, why do they seem so keen on hating everyone, including other branches of Islam?

This whole 'Islam is a united brotherhood' thing is just a load of BS. At the moment those who espouse the use of violence within the ranks of militant Islam and associated groups are as happy AND willing to butcher believer and non believer alike. How many times do we hear of cases of suicide bombers targeting markets and other soft targets in Iraq and Afghanistan, knowing full well that other Muslims would be the victims? Faction attacks faction, Sunni's target Shia's and vice versa. There is no Muslim 'Brotherhood' any more than there is a Christian/Jewish/Sikh or any other religious group brotherhood - one size does not fit all. Muslims are as fallible and as guilty of hypocrisy as any other group.

The earlier post by Double Deuce may contain part of the answer to the current thinking (if there IS any thinking being done) - everything is cyclical, and this current bout of violence may well be a spasm, the struggle between the Zealots and the ordinary believers. This is not the first time in history that a branch of the Muslim faith has resorted to the use of people who are willing to die for the cause (see links below).

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/assassins.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin

The fact is that these people have latched on to the current US/Allied intervention in the Middle East (whatever its rights or wrongs) as an excuse to do what they do best - kill and maim and all for a 'cause' they can justify. The fact that there IS NO CAUSE is neither here or there - they have nothing else to offer but destruction and if they didnt have the Iraq/Afghanistan/Palestinian situations to fight for then they would find another. They do what they do because they can think of nothing else, they have nothing else.

Until the people/populations these morons purport to represent say 'enough is enough, not in our name' (and Hell will probably freeze over before that happens), then the 'Faithful' will carry on killing.
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  #18  
Old 12 Sep 09, 10:07
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Originally Posted by Dogsbody67 View Post
Why do Muslims hate the US?

Perhaps that is the wrong question - rather, why do they seem so keen on hating everyone, including other branches of Islam?

This whole 'Islam is a united brotherhood' thing is just a load of BS.
AQ was in Afghanistan because they'd been chased out of everywhere else.
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  #19  
Old 12 Sep 09, 11:07
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Muslims? Nah. Leftists? Yes. Look at the resumes of the 9/11 terrorists. Look at the resumes of their bosses and handlers.

The vast majority come from privilaged upper middle class backgrounds. Many have been to Western Liberal Arts universities. They weren't poor. They weren't stupid. They weren't third world.

Instead, they were typical Leftists in the traditional Western mold. The only thing they did was take their radical Marxist, Leftist, nonsencial university stupidity and viciously apply it to the real world.

These guys were the product of people like Saul Alinsky, William Ayers, Peter McLaren, Noam Chomsky, and a thousand other equally idiotic Leftist academics devoid of any connection to reality. We, the West created the monsters that perpertrated 9/11 in our universities and institutions.
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  #20  
Old 12 Sep 09, 11:31
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Muslims don't hate America, its the extremist that do. They believe that there way is the best (the old way), and we are trying to bring civilization and such to the middle east and that doesn't make them happy.
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Old 12 Sep 09, 11:34
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Also, don't discount the influence of the Wahabist movement of the Muslim faith. They are the most rock hard of zealots, who wish to bring all Muslims and the world at large back to a tenth century sort of puritanical Muslim existance. You don't hear much about them in the media because they largely exist in Saudi Arabia and are charged with education of that nation's children, plus the setting and maintanence of sociatal morals and standards there.
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Old 12 Sep 09, 12:14
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Nothing is as much fun as unrestricted murder "in the name of God." Why do they do it? Because they want to, and this is the excuse they have come up with.
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Old 12 Sep 09, 12:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Muslims? Nah. Leftists? Yes. Look at the resumes of the 9/11 terrorists. Look at the resumes of their bosses and handlers.

The vast majority come from privilaged upper middle class backgrounds. Many have been to Western Liberal Arts universities. They weren't poor. They weren't stupid. They weren't third world.

Instead, they were typical Leftists in the traditional Western mold. The only thing they did was take their radical Marxist, Leftist, nonsencial university stupidity and viciously apply it to the real world.

These guys were the product of people like Saul Alinsky, William Ayers, Peter McLaren, Noam Chomsky, and a thousand other equally idiotic Leftist academics devoid of any connection to reality. We, the West created the monsters that perpertrated 9/11 in our universities and institutions.
Are you serious?

The mujahedeen fought Marxists in Afghanistan. Remember Operation Cyclone?

It's funny that a terrorist organization that is calling for the islamic world to return to Sharia Law can be viewed as Leftist.



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  #24  
Old 12 Sep 09, 12:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Nothing is as much fun as unrestricted murder "in the name of God." Why do they do it? Because they want to, and this is the excuse they have come up with.
I have to agree with MM here. Islam has many faults, but it's chief one is that it simply does not work as a moral framework outside (and more than a bit inside) the Umma (the collective whole of Islam). Human beings are born to slaughter, rape and enslave, that's just what we do in nature. Islam and it's kissing cousin Nazism, simply give people a pass to act on their own wretched natures. I fundementally beleive this was the great strength of Nazism, and also it's downfall, cause when you act like animals you will eventually be hunted down like animals.

I'm just afraid of what we will have to endure and become to stop this *crap.* 1400 years is enough.
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  #25  
Old 12 Sep 09, 12:48
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Read the doctrine. The doctrine is that all unbelievers must be killed. Plain and simple. We are unbelievers. Therefore, we must be killed. bin Laden and his followers are simply taking a literal interpretation of Islamic doctrine and doing what they are taught to do. Read it, understand it.
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Old 12 Sep 09, 14:57
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Originally Posted by Eric Wittenberg View Post
Read the doctrine. The doctrine is that all unbelievers must be killed. Plain and simple. We are unbelievers. Therefore, we must be killed. bin Laden and his followers are simply taking a literal interpretation of Islamic doctrine and doing what they are taught to do. Read it, understand it.
Yes, but it isn't that simple is it, unless it is ok to kill fellow Muslims because they are the 'wrong' kind of Muslims? These arses will kill anyone as long as it furthers their cause and then they will change their cause, because there isnt really a cause, just a never ending battle. Without the battle they are nothing, what they don't realise is that they ARE nothing.

Last edited by Dogsbody67; 12 Sep 09 at 15:01..
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Old 12 Sep 09, 15:33
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Good conversation all I enjoyed reading all your comments. The discussion about them fighting among themselves become apparent if you just look at how the US took down Afghanistan. Ie we just helped the guys who were not the Taliban. (and had been fighting for ten years already?)

Or who usually is killed by there ied and suicide bombers.
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Old 12 Sep 09, 16:11
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Originally Posted by AThousandYoung View Post
SOME Muslims hate the USA because we meddle in the Middle East and they resent that.

Osama bin Laden is specifically upset with the USA because the King of Saudi Arabia decided to rely on American troops and those of American allies to defend Saudi Arabia when Saddam Hussein was invading Kuwait instead of the Mujahadeen who drove the Soviets out of Afghanistan (with American weapons). OBL felt it was blasphemous to have infidel boots on, much less defending, the sacred soil of the Land of the Two Mosques (these being Mecca and Medina).

This gentleman here is largely spot on. While some of them are into the old world caliphate nonsense, the notion of killing of all non believers is not the crux of this issue. Whilst September 11 is the main event of Islamic terrorism it is not the beginning (or Pearl Harbour moment) of anti western Islamist terrorism like some mistakenly believe it to be. This goes back a long way and because it has been limited to far away places and car bombs, it has been overlooked. It largely goes back to what is percieved by Islamists as Western Christian western interference in the Middle East. Iran for example. All the grief we've had with them in the 70's and so forth. What people think that happened in a vacum just because some nutter came to power in 79. They've been seriously pissed off about British and American intelligence involvement in a coup in the 50's to get rid of the government and install a friendly one (The Shah) for oil purposes. The Shah was viewed by the radicals as a puppet of the "Imperialist" West. The revololution and the subsequent hostage taking, blowing up Marine barracks in Beirut are continuations of this belief.
Then we come to the Saudis and the Wahabists. Now these guys had been getting involved in Jihadist activities in the 80's over Afghanistan. Well connected overly educated and very wealthy people like OBL were as we all know highly drawn to helping fight infidels who had come to fight their Muslim brothers in Afghanistan. Now these guys by 89 were seriously radicalised and emboldened by what they believed they had done. So when the Gulf War came around pretty much straight after you combine these beliefs with the utter disgust at the invitation and arrival of Western Christian troops on the soil of the most holy place in their view in the whole of Islam. That combiantion was very volatile and very dangerous. Their was no intention by the West to cause offence , it was part of a strategic view with their Middle eastern partners to protect the oil supplies from Saddam Hussein. But as with so many unintended consequences the consequences or "blowback" are not often forseen or noticed. Now these troop have not left Saudi soil, so the outrage continued. I mean how connected was OBL. Extremely so from one of the most powerful families in the Saudi kingdom yet his outrage and behaviour over this issue was so bad that he was asked to leave Saudi Arabia, even a person as connected as him. From this we can see how bad the situation was and how much rage over this was engendered. And of course he had plenty of people willing to go along with him. As the 1990's continued, overt western involvement in the Middle East did grow. Large amounts of military hardware mostly for the Iraqi no fly zones and sanctions turned the screw in these peoples minds. Of course issues like Palestine, Beirut and so forth do add to the mix but as for the culmination in 2001 the above is pretty much the geo political background to what has become.
What we have endured is a form of "blowback" to some of the western involvment in the Middle East. Involvement that had no intentions of upsetting certain sections of radicalised Islam but have done so nonetheless. In creating a strategy, if we ignore this reality and focus that they hate us because we are democracies or simply infidels, we do so at our peril.
Personally I think Middle eastern politics is the biggest pain in the arse going. Its irrational, unpredictable and to be honest over the heads of the our current crop of political leaders. I think we should find a why to extracate ourselves in an overt sense from the region, find a decent alternative to oil using our technoloigal abilities (Manhattan style project for energy), have decent border controls in terms of potential terrorist insurgents and leave them to it as realistically as we can. They'll still hate us, soem will even say, yey they've left we've won. Frankly I dont give a what they think. We need to do what in the long run is good for us. I personally dont think that includes fighting near permenant insurgency wars for decades and decades to come. We'll become like Hamas and the Israelis. Surely we dont need or want that.

Last edited by copenhagen; 12 Sep 09 at 16:24..
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Old 12 Sep 09, 16:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Wittenberg View Post
Read the doctrine. The doctrine is that all unbelievers must be killed. Plain and simple. We are unbelievers. Therefore, we must be killed. bin Laden and his followers are simply taking a literal interpretation of Islamic doctrine and doing what they are taught to do. Read it, understand it.
But Eric for many centuries the Muslims and Jews and Christians lived side by side in peace with the Jews and Christians paying a special tax to be permitted to live among the Muslims. I can think of Christians that were living in Baghdad in peace until our War on Iraq and Christians in Lebanon also.

Right off of the top of my head I can think of Jews and Muslims living side by side in old Spain. When Ferdinand and Isabella drove out the Muslims they told the Jews that they had to convert or leave. I suspect that many went on into North Africa with the Muslims.

I also seem to remember from some of my Crusader history that the Crusaders killed Jews and Muslims indiscrimately in the Holy Land. I believe that they were living together at that time in peace until the Westerners came in.

The Zionists who went into Palestine before WWI also got along with the Muslims, did they not?

Last edited by Jannie; 12 Sep 09 at 17:10..
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Old 12 Sep 09, 17:20
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Originally Posted by Jannie View Post
But Eric for many centuries the Muslims and Jews and Christians lived side by side in peace with the Jews and Christians paying a special tax to be permitted to live among the Muslims. I can think of Christians that were living in Baghdad in peace until our War on Iraq and Christians in Lebanon also.

Right off of the top of my head I can think of Jews and Muslims living side by side in old Spain. When Ferdinand and Isabella drove out the Muslims they told the Jews that they had to convert or leave. I suspect that many went on into North Africa with the Muslims.

I also seem to remember from some of my Crusader history that the Crusaders killed Jews and Muslims indiscrimately in the Holy Land. I believe that they were living together at that time in peace until the Westerners came in.

The Zionists who went into Palestine before WWI also got along with the Muslims, did they not?
You are correct. As you imply; not so simple is it?
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