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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #16  
Old 04 Aug 09, 17:40
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Once part of Russia, always part of Russia?
It would surtenly make things much easier, just think of Eurovision... It would reduce the number of contestents and reduce the time needed for that spectacle.

But anyway I canīt see that the S Ossetian will to be independent is any different from somebodys else.
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  #17  
Old 04 Aug 09, 17:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
canshame, I think you're description of events is inaccurate, false even.
Not at all.

Quote:
not quite right, sir. Georgia has been dreaming of joining NATO for some years but Tbilissi knows perfectly that NATO won't agree because of ongoing ethnic frictions.
True

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So Georgia decided to ŦŦcalmŦŦ the S.Ossetians who wanted to become independant from Georgia to increase its chances to be accepted in NATO
It sent the army, planning genocide-like attacks.
'
True, we have already discussed "Grads" havenīt we?


Quote:
Russia had to intervene because Russian citizens from S.Ossetia were the first to be attacked by the Georgian troops
True once again. Russian citizens was attaked by Georgian troops.

Quote:
Then, as expected. NATO proclaimed that ŧŧRussia invaded ŦŦ..
Ok NATO may not be acurate, western media would.
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  #18  
Old 04 Aug 09, 17:45
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
It would surtenly make things much easier, just think of Eurovision... It would reduce the number of contestents and reduce the time needed for that spectacle.
I don't care much for Eurovision, but its good to know you would like it. So if it were to happen there would at least be a silver lining to the misery.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
But anyway I canīt see that the S Ossetian will to be independent is any different from somebodys else.
I've no idea what the S Ossetian will is and I seriously doubt Ossetia is any closer to independence. I know that Russia has de facto annexed SO years ago and the current population of the territory is a result of ethnic cleansing. I'm not a fan of ethnic cleansing.

If Ossetians want to be independent I'll support them all the way.
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  #19  
Old 04 Aug 09, 17:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
I don't care much for Eurovision, but its good to know you would like it. So if it were to happen there would at least be a silver lining to the misery.
Like and like... I said it would make things easier, eurovision was just an example.


Quote:
I've no idea what the S Ossetian will is and I seriously doubt Ossetia is any closer to independence. I know that Russia has de facto annexed SO years ago and the current population of the territory is a result of ethnic cleansing. I'm not a fan of ethnic cleansing.
Well point me to somebody here who is?

Quote:
If Ossetians want to be independent I'll support them all the way.
A war for independence isnīt enough?
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  #20  
Old 04 Aug 09, 18:04
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
A war for independence isnīt enough?
What war for independence? Where?
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  #21  
Old 04 Aug 09, 18:08
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
What war for independence? Where?
Hmm well I am not good at numbers but, I guess at ... wait! Can I use a lifeline? Oh I have no more.... Ok ok I take A:1991
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  #22  
Old 04 Aug 09, 18:43
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There was a war for independence going on in 1991? You mean in Eritrea?

Honestly I don't know what to call the hodgepodge of disconcerted action in South Ossetia in 1991. As I recall Ossetians were scared that their position might weaken if Georgia got independent and were vehemently opposed to that proposition. Then there was schism over whether SO should be autonomous oblast or autonomous republic within Georgia and then within Russia. The last part get's interesting as Russia was by that stage already actively involved in the conflict.

I would say that a war for independence would usually require that the goal is independence and that there is some sort of coherent effort to that goal. In this case SO has made it perfectly clear it doesn't want independence but to be annexed with Russia. As it happens, SO is run by Russian officials and exists solely by virtue of Russian subsidies (and crime relying on good connections with Russia). A happy coincidence, isn't it? Too bad at the same time some third of the population has been forced from their homes.

As I've mentioned before. I've nothing against SO independence. If they then choose to join Russia, I wouldn't mind that either. What I do mind is an international war to conquer territory. The process in SO could've followed the Kosovo model, but that would have required disinterested parties as real peacekeepers (say India, Pakistan, maybe some African countries), a meaningful possibility for the displaced population to return, a cooling off period and an actual referendum.
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  #23  
Old 04 Aug 09, 18:52
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Real peacekeepers? The typical junk, repeated again and again and again. They was as real as any peacekeeper, placed there by the UN.

There is one bif flaw in this, South Ossetia is not worth the effort, no natural reasources. Itīs a tiny country and Russia has not much to gain there. And the damned pipleline? What keept the Russians from marching straight to it during 888? What goals was not meet? And for I donīt know how many times I asked this: where is the damned Russian T-80:s?

And btw, the top Russian maffia is run by Chechens... ironic isnīt it?
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  #24  
Old 04 Aug 09, 19:17
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Erkki, the t80's are there. You're just not looking hard enough.

What kept Russia from marching up there last year? If I might guess its a combination of the following:

1. Cash escaping Russia
2. Immense diplomatic pressure on Russia
3. The inability to attain air supremacy
4. The inability to trap and destroy any significant Georgian units.

I don't see Russia getting anything in the last year's war it already didn't have. It actually lost a lot of its diplomatic clout as it forced an obvious and wide rift between Kreml and what was previously perceived as their loyal allies. Nicaragua and Hamas, come on! I think Norway could invade and annex Iceland and their diplomats could probably shore up more support for that.

While, unlike you I'm not privy to Putin's actual goals, I do assume the absolute minimum goal for such an extensive, expensive but high risk operation must have been to topple Saakashvili and to establish a compliant government in Tbilisi. His failure to accomplish this in a very small nation with very limited international support must've been embarassing and it might have cost him dearly in the inevitable future (or maybe its already ongoing) power struggle in Kreml.
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Old 04 Aug 09, 19:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Erkki, the t80's are there. You're just not looking hard enough.
Sure? You know, I went through 3 books, one named armour in S Ossetia and no T-80, a couple hundred of pictures on the web, no T-80

Quote:
What kept Russia from marching up there last year? If I might guess its a combination of the following:

1. Cash escaping Russia
The damage was already done

Quote:
2. Immense diplomatic pressure on Russia
Quote:
3. The inability to attain air supremacy
Not necesary, the Georgian airforce was destroyed, AA sites was destroyed and the number of aircrafts was growing, total air supority is a very hard thing to get, for exampel Germans airplanes did still fly in 1945. And you mentioned a chopper?
Quote:
4. The inability to trap and destroy any significant Georgian units.
Hmm well what do you call destrying the destroying are decimate Georgian navy,airforce and armor?

Quote:
I don't see Russia getting anything in the last year's war it already didn't have.
Russia was not after anything more then protecting itīs citizens and honouring the peacekeeping mission.
`
Quote:
It actually lost a lot of its diplomatic clout as it forced an obvious and wide rift between Kreml and what was previously perceived as their loyal allies.
What loyal allies?

Quote:
While, unlike you I'm not privy to Putin's actual goals, I do assume the absolute minimum goal for such an extensive, expensive but high risk operation must have been to topple Saakashvili and to establish a compliant government in Tbilisi. His failure to accomplish this in a very small nation with very limited international support must've been embarassing and it might have cost him dearly in the inevitable future (or maybe its already ongoing) power struggle in Kreml.
Wrong, Georgia started the war. Therefore there was no other Russian operation then stoping and destroying the offensive capabilities of the Georgian army, which it did quite well. You canīt fail a objective you donīt have. Why not claim that Russias goal was to steal Georgian military equpment right away?

And what power struggle? You canīt even find me a picture of a loussy tank, how will you find evidence off that? Sorry but I have pretty decent sources, there is no power struggle to speak of.
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  #26  
Old 04 Aug 09, 20:24
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Sure? You know, I went through 3 books, one named armour in S Ossetia and no T-80, a couple hundred of pictures on the web, no T-80
keep looking

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Not necesary, the Georgian airforce was destroyed, AA sites was destroyed and the number of aircrafts was growing, total air supority is a very hard thing to get, for exampel Germans airplanes did still fly in 1945. And you mentioned a chopper?
I think air supremacy was the minimum expected in a fight between Georgia and Russia. That it wasn't achieved was a surprise to me.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Hmm well what do you call destrying the destroying are decimate Georgian navy,airforce and armor?
Less than I expected.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Russia was not after anything more then protecting itīs citizens and honouring the peacekeeping mission.
LOL`

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
What loyal allies?
That is I think the question asked in Kremlin last fall.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Wrong, Georgia started the war. Therefore there was no other Russian operation then stoping and destroying the offensive capabilities of the Georgian army, which it did quite well. You canīt fail a objective you donīt have. Why not claim that Russias goal was to steal Georgian military equpment right away?
I'm sorry but I will never ever believe that an operation like what happened could be anything but a result of extensive planning. I am sure next we'll have a heated debate over how the dastardly Finns fired those Mainila shells.

I don't claim that Russia's claim was to steal Georgian military equipment, because I don't think that was their goal. I'm sure they have enough scrap metal without the need for invading foreign countries to get it. Given how Georgia is about to attack again I suppose even the goal of ridding Georgia of its minimal offensive capabilities were unsuccessful.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
And what power struggle? You canīt even find me a picture of a loussy tank, how will you find evidence off that? Sorry but I have pretty decent sources, there is no power struggle to speak of.
Why do I need to find you a picture of a tank? I think you've taken this mission onto yourself. Do not rest until you find it. The truth is out there.
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  #27  
Old 05 Aug 09, 11:22
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I would say that a war for independence would usually require that the goal is independence and that there is some sort of coherent effort to that goal.
How about 1918-1920 when 5000 of Ossetian were killed by the Georgian Menshevik government?
How about the conflict 1991-1992 ended with a truce agreement mediated by the Russian government and approved by the OSCE and UN?

South Ossetians had had several efforts to live with Georgians but slogans like "Georgia for Georgians" and a law barring all regional parties made all the dreams of autonomy inside Georgia totally fruitless. After the shelling of 08.08.08 independence became the only means to survive for the people.
Quote:
As it happens, SO is run by Russian officials and exists solely by virtue of Russian subsidies (and crime relying on good connections with Russia). A happy coincidence, isn't it? Too bad at the same time some third of the population has been forced from their homes.
So what's the irony for? A state that isn't internationally recognized can't be integrated in the international economy for there is no any legal basis to build this superstructure on. So it can trade only with its friendly neighbour. Now since the basis has been established it can be institutionally developed by bilateral accessory agreements on which trade contract will be drawn. Let's wait!

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Old 05 Aug 09, 13:14
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South Ossetians had had several efforts to live with Georgians but slogans like "Georgia for Georgians" and a law barring all regional parties made all the dreams of autonomy inside Georgia totally fruitless. After the shelling of 08.08.08 independence became the only means to survive for the people.
I don't think this bit is very convincing considering how the Georgians were expulsed from the area. There's little question that Georgians could've handled things better, but the little spat in 1991-1992 was nothing that could've been easily mended given a chance. After all, there are nearly as many Ossetians living peacefully elsewhere in Georgia than there is living in SO. The whole incident is a showcase what a little bit of effective agitation, some money and some displaced weapons can do.

As to the crises in 1918-1920, that too was a conflict where Russia was an active participant and it would be rather far fetched to call Bolshevik Russian instigated and supported insurrection as fight for independence when its goal was not independence of Ossetia, but the loss of independence for Georgia (Bolshies used similar schemes also here, the latest notorious example being the government of Mr. Kuusinen). It was hardly a one-sided affair and its very difficult to establish which conflict was at the forefront the Bolshevik vs Menshevik or the Ossetian vs Georgian as both Bolshevik and Menshevik sides seemed to include elements of both nationalities albeit Ossetians were more on the Bolshevik side.

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Originally Posted by Elrat View Post
So what's the irony for? A state that isn't internationally recognized can't be integrated in the international economy for there is no any legal basis to build this superstructure on. So it can trade only with its friendly neighbour. Now since the basis has been established it can be institutionally developed by bilateral accessory agreements on which trade contract will be drawn. Let's wait!
We all know that SO is not going to be independent and the next step is simply Russia formally annexing the territory as it de facto already has. I'm sure this will be accompanied by an appropriate show. Talk about fighting for independence in this context is simply ridiculous.
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  #29  
Old 05 Aug 09, 13:40
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But anyway I canīt see that the S Ossetian will to be independent is any different from somebodys else.
When the Ossetians (not North and South) express their will to be independent from both Russia and Georgia I might consider that this "will" is genuine. Until then it is just a Russian construct to meddle in other countries affairs and grab some land.
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Old 05 Aug 09, 13:49
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[INDENT]How about the conflict 1991-1992 ended with a truce agreement mediated by the Russian government and approved by the OSCE and UN
That's like having the fox guarding the chickens.
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