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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #31  
Old 05 Aug 09, 14:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Russia is accusing US of arming Georgia. I hope it is true as there is nothing wrong with two sovereign countries supplying military equipment, especially as one a victim of continuous intimidation, and having parts of its territory occupied by an larger state with imperial delusions of grandeur.
There's nothing wrong in anything at all. There's just rethoric and the way you twist it. I believe there's nothing wrong in charging some courtries for gas and oil a bit more, for example. Don't forget that while Shere Khan is out of reach, its Tabaquis usually suffer first.
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  #32  
Old 07 Aug 09, 17:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Russia is accusing US of arming Georgia. I hope it is true as there is nothing wrong with two sovereign countries supplying military equipment, especially as one a victim of continuous intimidation, and having parts of its territory occupied by an larger state with imperial delusions of grandeur.
Depends who gets to judge what's right and wrong. The two sides will differ on that because it's a clash of interests and rhetoric will never solve it.

See how Israel and the US are reacting to the mere news of Russian arms sales to Iran and Syria.
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  #33  
Old 10 Aug 09, 06:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Russia is accusing US of arming Georgia. I hope it is true as there is nothing wrong with two sovereign countries supplying military equipment, especially as one a victim of continuous intimidation, and having parts of its territory occupied by an larger state with imperial delusions of grandeur.

The US set the precedent for what happened by insisting on recognizing Kosova. This is what encouraged the Abkhazians and Ossetians in their struggle for independence. Why do you only condemn one states' imperial delusions, while denying the right of self-determination to populations within another?

I might also add that the US did not merely sell arms to Georgia- it was engaged in a long-term training and arming program with the US military, particularly the US Marines. Thus the accusation is that this relationship encouraged Georgia to act aggressively toward the Ossetians. It is also worth noting that Georgia supplied troops to help the US and UK's delusional imperial colonial mission in Iraq, so they are hardly innocent by any stretch of the imagination.

All this being said however, I find Medvedev's claims about "protecting Russian citizens abroad" to be a sick joke. There are still thousands of victims of women trafficking all over the world that have Russian passports and are completely ignored by his government.
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  #34  
Old 10 Aug 09, 13:09
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Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
The US set the precedent for what happened by insisting on recognizing Kosova. This is what encouraged the Abkhazians and Ossetians in their struggle for independence. Why do you only condemn one states' imperial delusions, while denying the right of self-determination to populations within another?

I might also add that the US did not merely sell arms to Georgia- it was engaged in a long-term training and arming program with the US military, particularly the US Marines. Thus the accusation is that this relationship encouraged Georgia to act aggressively toward the Ossetians. It is also worth noting that Georgia supplied troops to help the US and UK's delusional imperial colonial mission in Iraq, so they are hardly innocent by any stretch of the imagination.

All this being said however, I find Medvedev's claims about "protecting Russian citizens abroad" to be a sick joke. There are still thousands of victims of women trafficking all over the world that have Russian passports and are completely ignored by his government.
Kosovo is a different situation. I don't happen to support it's independence, but that's not relevant here. As to the Ossetian independence ambitions, I would only consider them genuine if they were also including North Ossetia being independent from Russia. And shall we talk about Chechnya's independence ambitions.
US and UK were not trying to incorporate Iraq into any of their nonexistent empires as Russia is trying to do with Ossetia (new "prime minister" is a Russian) and Abhazia.

And Medvedev should start with protecting Russian people within borders of Russia before he can even talking about going abroad with his "protection" plans. Women like Politkovskaya need protection.
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  #35  
Old 10 Aug 09, 16:07
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Kosova is not a different situation. If one postage stamp sized country can declare independence and engage in military insurgency against another, so can South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Moreover, whether Russia incorporates South Ossetia into its territory is irrelevant, it would rule economically anyway.
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  #36  
Old 11 Aug 09, 08:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
Kosova is not a different situation. If one postage stamp sized country can declare independence and engage in military insurgency against another, so can South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Moreover, whether Russia incorporates South Ossetia into its territory is irrelevant, it would rule economically anyway.
Thanks for agreeing that the whole Abhazia and Ossetia affair is soly for the purpose of advancing Russian imperial ambitions. It'll end in tears.
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  #37  
Old 11 Aug 09, 09:38
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Russians have recently made considerable progress in geological weapon. The recent earthquake in Japan is just a demonstrative test. The next step is to shift the earth poles followed by a large-scale military offensive against the "free world" but for some reason Russians will begin from Polynesia.
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  #38  
Old 11 Aug 09, 16:54
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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Thanks for agreeing that the whole Abhazia and Ossetia affair is soly for the purpose of advancing Russian imperial ambitions. It'll end in tears.
Still waiting for you to acknowledge that the UK assisted an imperialist aggressive war against Iraq. Oh forgot to mention the protection of a government of warlord criminals in Afghanistan who see it proper to legalize marital rape.

Being anti-imperialist means always anti-imperialist, not choosing sides.
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  #39  
Old 12 Aug 09, 04:38
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Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
Thanks for agreeing that the whole Abhazia and Ossetia affair is soly for the purpose of advancing Russian imperial ambitions. It'll end in tears.
Most certainly. Same with Stalingrad 1942-1943, the same with defeat of the German army elsewhere. Russians are imperialists by nature even their kids. I sometimes get up at night woken by a sudden fit of pride for my Vaterland and the pleasant feeling that I am an imperialist.
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  #40  
Old 12 Aug 09, 08:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
Kosova is not a different situation. If one postage stamp sized country can declare independence and engage in military insurgency against another, so can South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Moreover, whether Russia incorporates South Ossetia into its territory is irrelevant, it would rule economically anyway.
Actually the whole fuss about the "find ten differences in the two situations" issue seems to be somewhat not mature enough. All objects unless they are identical (i.e. the same one thing) have differences and they depend on the fundamentum divisionis which in turn depends on the purpose of classification. So if we find differences will they have any legal implications? So in order to solve the problem correctly we should first agree on what attributes should be given legal significance and then approach the issue from this POV.
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  #41  
Old 12 Aug 09, 12:51
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Still waiting for you to acknowledge that the UK assisted an imperialist aggressive war against Iraq. Oh forgot to mention the protection of a government of warlord criminals in Afghanistan who see it proper to legalize marital rape.
You going to wait a long time. US, UK, Poland and Australia participated in liberation of Iraq, not an imperialist aggression. Calling US/UK imperialist is a hangover from old days of Soviet propaganda still regurgitated by the Left and their Islamofascist allies.

And Afghanistan is the result of Soviet aggression.
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  #42  
Old 12 Aug 09, 16:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
You going to wait a long time. US, UK, Poland and Australia participated in liberation of Iraq, not an imperialist aggression. Calling US/UK imperialist is a hangover from old days of Soviet propaganda still regurgitated by the Left and their Islamofascist allies.

And Afghanistan is the result of Soviet aggression.
Liberation of Iraq? That's hilarious! Sounds like old "Pravda" - but in the "west" this time. "And to return the land of Grenada back to the peasants..." as the old soviet song goes. (did the peasants ask us to?)
We switched places? What do the Iraqis think of this "liberation", did they ask you for it? You seem to know better their needs. Very proud of you!

Here is a nice article. To spare your efforts in searching for it there we go:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...feed=worldnews

The American way or the highwayGet ready, world. Managed mass democracy and market capitalism are coming. It'll be good for you. We promise.
Michael Dougherty guardian.co.uk
Don't you dream of the day when Iraqis, South Ossetians or whoever - Africans? - can have the plenitude of blessings that democracy brings? I know I do. I have a dream that one day international media conglomerates will poll Iraqis in Anbar province on the latest "gaffe" of Nouri al-Maliki. Won't that be liberating? I dream of a Fox News affiliate in the Caucuses that informs the South Ossetians on what South Ossetians think of Mikhail Sakashvilli's neckwear choices. I wake up thinking: If these poor and variously swarthy mouth-breathers could get just a taste of Sarah Palin's Lipstickgate, they would understand the inferiority of totalitarianism.

That's why I'm so happy about the astounding and inspiring unity of purpose in foreign policy among America's two ruling parties. On the question of Georgia, both of America's ideological factions bravely committed themselves to democracy over the truth. In the centre-left New Republic, David Greenberg lamented: "Many liberals took pains to find fault on both sides, rather than focusing on Russian aggression." The centre-right pundit Robert Kagan said it better: "The details of who did what to precipitate Russia's war against Georgia are not very important. Do you recall the precise details of the Sudeten Crisis that led to Nazi Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia? Of course not." That's right. Don't let the facts confuse you, just remember Hitler. Now, let's roll!

This unity reaches up to presidential politics and extends to the Middle East. Bush, after declaring near-victory in Iraq, announced a 5% reduction of American forces there. "USA! USA!" He then proposed a "quiet surge" in Afghanistan. So Barack Obama called for a much louder one. "It is not enough troops, and not enough resources, with not enough urgency," the "anti-war" Obama says. Right on, Barack! What's a surge without a sense of urgency?

You might ask, has the surge worked? And you might be a traitor who wants dictators to gas little children and puppies. But I'll humour you. In this matter, I defer to the wisdom of Donald Rumsfeld: There are unknowns and knowns, you know. Does the Iraqi government have legitimacy? Unknown. Will the Sunni Awakening hold together? Unknown. Do both major party candidates agree that the surge has worked? Known. One of the requirements of the surge was to ensure domestic support for the war. On that score the surge, like, totally worked.

So get ready, world. Managed mass democracy and market capitalism are coming your way. Just wait until commercial homebuilders bulldoze the horrifyingly particular - and therefore strange - features of your landscape and put cable television outlets in every room for you. Surely in gratitude you'll abandon any weird and ancient religious scruples. We prefer religion that comes from television. Or religion that is television. Here's a bonus: once you get hooked up, your elite class can quote Marshall McLuhan, while ignoring everything he says.

And let's get something straight: You'll have free trade. It won't really be free trade. What we mean by this is an exchange. We'll right up a several-thousand-page agreement that gives incumbency to preferred businesses in both countries. Then you will sell your natural resources, and we'll sell your new class of speculators our debt. If you can produce children with nimble fingers, well, they can sew our boots. You'll get a McDonald's, which means we will never attack you. Unless you are Russia.

Sometimes the "hidden hand" of the free economy feels a little … violating, I know. But that's just its adolescent fumbling. Your inhibitions - or local economy - need to be dropped. Take a deep breath. If it hurts, just lie back and think of England. Or take this pill. We're going to do a little role-playing here. It'll be kinky. I'll be America, and I'll start: "Now, open your markets, bitch! I'm going to liberate you so hard."
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  #43  
Old 12 Aug 09, 16:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
You going to wait a long time. US, UK, Poland and Australia participated in liberation of Iraq, not an imperialist aggression. Calling US/UK imperialist is a hangover from old days of Soviet propaganda still regurgitated by the Left and their Islamofascist allies.

And Afghanistan is the result of Soviet aggression.
Hilarious.


Did the Iraqi people ASK to be liberated? Nope. Was Iraq under occupation from some other foreign country at the time? Nope. Was the Baathist party helped into power years earlier by the CIA? HELL YES.

Let me help you get it straight: The USSR liberated Poland. The UK, Australia, the US, and their eager lap dog Poland(price: F16 fighters and looser visa restrictions) invaded and conquered Iraq.

And don't give me this Afghanistan nonsense either. Depite being against the USSR's invasion, the rebellion was carried out by criminal, feudal tribesmen against the Afghan government. Had they not rebelled, the government wouldn't have asked for Soviet aid. CIA assistance to the Mujahadeen was also deliberately started prior to the main Soviet invasion.
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  #44  
Old 12 Aug 09, 16:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmde.Slavyanski View Post
Kosova is not a different situation. If one postage stamp sized country can declare independence and engage in military insurgency against another, so can South Ossetia or Abkhazia. Moreover, whether Russia incorporates South Ossetia into its territory is irrelevant, it would rule economically anyway.
Kosovo's population is bigger than my country's. Its approximately the same size as Slovenia, FYROM or Latvia.

Abkhazia is actually the same size as Luxembourg and SO is comparable to Andorra or Liechtenstein.

I've absolutely nothing against Abkhaz or Ossetian independence. However this is not what is happening. These territories are being annexed 19th century style. Its nothing like Kosovo.
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Old 13 Aug 09, 04:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawelj View Post
You going to wait a long time. US, UK, Poland and Australia participated in liberation of Iraq, not an imperialist aggression. Calling US/UK imperialist is a hangover from old days of Soviet propaganda still regurgitated by the Left and their Islamofascist allies.
And Afghanistan is the result of Soviet aggression.
I am still at a loss... Ok, Russians are imperialists and BAD guys in general. But what is this supposed to do with justification of the recent US military actions in Iraq and the ones Comrade Slavyanskiy refer to? If you were consistent and honest you could equally condemn all the unjust wars. And I wonder why in order to dissociate oneself from the SU heritage one should side with the worst specimens of American species like Bush jr.
There are really worthy and noble people in America like Mailer, Vidal, John le Carré, Kurt Vonnegut, Jimmy Breslin, Michael Moore why don't you listen to them without a risk of justification of what those hateful Russians do.
Take a look at this: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040607/sherman/single
and this: http://www.truthout.org/article/kurt...nd-state-union
In this connection I would like to cite Graham Greene from "The Quiet American" who uses this metaphor in reference to the American presence in Vietnam and now can be equally attributed to the current American policy:
"Innocence is like a dumb leper wandering around the world meaning no harm"
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