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  #31  
Old 05 Jun 09, 13:47
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true enough and thata's caused a lot of contention amongs the varying schools....i dont discount entirely interaction among earlier meso cultures to the south...but also see the difference that are not obviously meso as well.

and that's the rub for many.
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  #32  
Old 05 Jun 09, 13:59
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...well, it LOOKS like there could be a relationship..
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  #33  
Old 05 Jun 09, 14:01
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amen.
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  #34  
Old 05 Jun 09, 15:01
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Incas Aztecs Mounds and Looting

Interaction is the key word. That the mound builders had Meso American contact and influence is undeniable. My belief is that it ends there. The people building ceremonial complexes in North America were not large populations of Inca or Aztec. Individuals from Central and South America may have relocated to N America. Trade is evidenced by artifacts such as Mayan clay/pottery items excavated in Florida and Georgia. Shell tools from Florida are found in Michigan, Oklahoma and other states. Copper and galena from the Northern US are found in Texas and Florida. Safe to say contact existed and that the Mound Building cultures in the US were influenced by their Southern counterparts.

While looting is a major problem at aboriginal and historical sites most(not all) took place 1850-1960. Up until the 1920's much excavation took place by "professionals" who were more adventurers than scientist. Yale's Peabody Museum sponsored many of the expeditions into the Southern US. If memory serves I believe CB Moore led several of the Yale quests. Although the recovery techniques and record keeping of that time were crude at least records were kept and most artifacts made it to various museums.

During the 1960's the professional community began an attempt to limit field work by non professionals. During the process many amateurs became alienated. Thankfully in the last 10 years professionals have begun to organize interested amateurs for surveying areas to locate unknown sites and report the current condition of known sites. Interaction is again the key.

The professional community has underestimated and under utilzed the value of amateur avocationists. For example I read a recent article regarding the archeology of Broward County Fl. The author states in the 60's-70's the a local group of amateurs known as the Broward County Archeological Society did more harm than good due to the wholesale excavation of sites. The statement appears valid unless one performs a bit more "digging". The facts are this group located several hundred sites excavating many. Over 75% of those sites were destroyed by the rapid construction taking place in the area. Without the volunteer work of these "amateurs" no record or artifact collection would exist today. Most survey and fieldwork is on a contract basis. The funding for full time fieldwork simply does not exist. Amateur groups and individuals can help fill the void.

Prosecution of looters on public land has improved over the past 20 years and that is a good thing. Officials can do little with unsupervised excavation and construction on private property. Perhaps the greater crime is when governments allow corporate interests to outweigh historical preservation. The destruction of Civil War battle sites continues unabated. No valid reason exists for not incorporating sites of importance into projects allowing progress to continue and history preserved.
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  #35  
Old 05 Jun 09, 15:11
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good input. thanks.
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  #36  
Old 05 Jun 09, 15:49
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WE should then take a look at those mysterious traces of tobacco and cocaine found in Egyptian mummies and wonder what the physical connection with the South American cultures was.
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  #37  
Old 05 Jun 09, 15:58
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ok. lead off.
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  #38  
Old 06 Jun 09, 10:54
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well we will get back to that no doubt....
here's a tidbit and a good un. A great magazine and a great group.

Via Aurelia: The Roman Empire's Lost Highway

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...d-Warrior.html
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  #39  
Old 06 Jun 09, 11:25
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Looting and Ebay

This came out a little while back. On earchaeologist finds Ebay has actually had a positive effect as far as looting goes, at least in Peru. I've always thought archaeologists should actively train forgers.

EBay Has Unexpected, Chilling Effect On Looting Of Antiquities, Archaelogist Finds
Quote:
"People who used to make a few dollars selling a looted artifact to a middleman in their village can now produce their own 'almost-as-good-as-old' objects and go directly to a person in a nearby town who has an eBay account," he said. "They will receive the same amount or even more than they could have received for actual antiquities."
As a result of the rise of a ready market, many of the primary purveyors have shifted from looting sites to faking antiquities.
In addition to linking craftsmen with a market for cheap fakes, eBay has tended to have a depressing effect on prices for real looted artifacts, further discouraging locals from pillaging precious sites.

"The value of ... illicit digging decreases every time someone buys a 'genuine' Moche pot for $35, plus shipping and handling," he writes. (An authentic antiquity would sell for upwards of $15,000.)
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  #40  
Old 06 Jun 09, 11:30
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well capitalism and in this case preservation wins out.

thanks Zem.
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Old 06 Jun 09, 11:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centrix Vigilis View Post
ok. lead off.
Well...I thought I just did. One of the constant puzzles facing archaeologists is the presence of traces of cocaine and tobacco frequently found on Egyptian mummies - those of rak and stature. Given that these plants are indigenous to the Americas, the only viable conclusion is that there was a trade route to South America. By whom and when remains the biggest part of the mystery, but no explanation for this has come forth.
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  #42  
Old 06 Jun 09, 12:27
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indeed and i have been made aware of this prior....i think that the actual probability of such pre and post, 1st ce. cross Atlantic explorations, and discourse can not only not be denied but is more then probable....

many of those in the science of today, discount it for varied reasons, without taking into consideration the indomitable human spirit or will for just such activities and would have us rely on provable data. Strabo and others reported it as viable when dealing with the Phoenicians and others.

And while i support that ( provable data) in the context of assisting in the veracity of claims vs. fraud or pure speculation...it is not nor should not be all inclusive....

myth and legends have time after time been proven to have a basis in fact that was only discovered centuries later....after the organization and structure of the sciences and arts were created, and technologically became possible to verify them.

case in point in addition to the current line of thought is the sea explorations of polynesians and or the case studies of the earliest inhabitants of n. America via the ancient land bridge....etc. 100 years ago these propositions were scoffed at.

hence while the existence of the tobacco plant in varying forms in the old world might have been and is possible at some point ( ie. nicotiana in sw africa); coca did not. and while I'm apt to be amenable to most any reasonable theory...I'm not real impressed with the idea that mummies and artifacts in Egypt were contaminated by handlers and scientists, in the hey day of their discovery as or who were users of such..

as to my understanding trace analysis of such subjects and the presence of the substances predates....conventional interest and study/exploration and subsequent initial interest and development of the field.

ntl one should also remember that the aforementioned nicotiana was used primarily as an entheogen in the western hemisphere originally and the possibility of its ancient use as such in the eastern is plausible. ie. the nexus might be understood from that perspective. the conudrum remains.

b

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Old 06 Jun 09, 12:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Well...I thought I just did. One of the constant puzzles facing archaeologists is the presence of traces of cocaine and tobacco frequently found on Egyptian mummies - those of rak and stature. Given that these plants are indigenous to the Americas, the only viable conclusion is that there was a trade route to South America. By whom and when remains the biggest part of the mystery, but no explanation for this has come forth.
Strictly speaking it wasn't tobacco that was found, it was nicotine. Nicotine is common in a number of plants, including celery, which was part of the Egyptian diet.

The "cocaine mummies" thing has some problems--reproducible results. Some German researchers found it in back in the 90s. Similar tests on mummies in other collections failed to reproduce the results. Most mummies have been in museums and private collections for decades at least, more often since the 19th century and later contamination is a definite problem.
If something else shows up indicating trans-Atlantic contact, then the German mummies will probably come up for reconsideration in that light. But at this stage there isn't much that can be said.
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  #44  
Old 06 Jun 09, 12:35
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post note.

Zem and i are on line here and I'm glad he brought up the reproducibility issue...as to such contaminents that were found and possibly subject to later testing; it is more plausible to believe they were introduced, however..... post early exploratory period then pre.

b

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Old 06 Jun 09, 21:44
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Damn. two minutes too slow
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