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RKKA (The Russian Army) in World War II Discuss the Russian armed forces in World War II. Hosted by our resident Russian expert, AMVAS. Please visit his RKKA in WW2 Website.

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  #1  
Old 31 May 09, 13:57
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Soviet and german tank losses

Greetings to everyone,

I was reading some statistics regarding Eastern front during GPW.
I have some questions regarding, I thought some of you could help:

- In Krivosheev study I found following data:
Total losses for tanks and SP were
Soviet 96,5
German 32,0
Axis 0,5
In continuation of text of number of 42,7 german tanks and SP is mentioned, I think as a total number of german tanks. (Если говорить о безвозвратных потерях боевой техники и вооружения фашистской Германии и ее союзников за вторую мировую войну в целом, то все вооружение, произведенное ими до начала войны и в ходе ее, было потеряно. Вот лишь некоторые цифры этих потерь: танков и штурмовых орудий (САУ) - 42,7 тыс.)

In chart with detailed tank losses in strategic operations, total soviet losses of tanks and SP were listed as 63229. What happened with the difference of more than 33 thousands, more than a third of all losses? Were they all lost in some smaller operations (very unlikely), or they were decomissioned due to wear-down?

For German losses,
I found their production was about 50.000 tanks and SP, plus they used few thousand captured tanks. If we compare with Krivosheev list, and with losses on other fronts, it seems there is more 10.000 tanks and SP missing somewhere?

On this chart I found data for german tank strength during war
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/divis.htm#ger
I find rather strange that they had 13362 tanks in january 1945. (100 pz divisions). Does anybody knows german tank strength in this period, or earlier? Do you have list of german losses by year?
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  #2  
Old 01 Jun 09, 03:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vathra View Post
Greetings to everyone,

I was reading some statistics regarding Eastern front during GPW.
I have some questions regarding, I thought some of you could help:

- In Krivosheev study I found following data:
Total losses for tanks and SP were
Soviet 96,5
German 32,0
Axis 0,5
In continuation of text of number of 42,7 german tanks and SP is mentioned, I think as a total number of german tanks. (Если говорить о безвозвратных потерях боевой техники и вооружения фашистской Германии и ее союзников за вторую мировую войну в целом, то все вооружение, произведенное ими до начала войны и в ходе ее, было потеряно. Вот лишь некоторые цифры этих потерь: танков и штурмовых орудий (САУ) - 42,7 тыс.)

In chart with detailed tank losses in strategic operations, total soviet losses of tanks and SP were listed as 63229. What happened with the difference of more than 33 thousands, more than a third of all losses? Were they all lost in some smaller operations (very unlikely), or they were decomissioned due to wear-down?

For German losses,
I found their production was about 50.000 tanks and SP, plus they used few thousand captured tanks. If we compare with Krivosheev list, and with losses on other fronts, it seems there is more 10.000 tanks and SP missing somewhere?

On this chart I found data for german tank strength during war
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/divis.htm#ger
I find rather strange that they had 13362 tanks in january 1945. (100 pz divisions). Does anybody knows german tank strength in this period, or earlier? Do you have list of german losses by year?
it is necessaru to read with attention what Krivoshhev means.

42,700 lost German and its satellites' tanks and SP guns - he wrote that Germany and its satellites lost all its produced weapon, 42,700 isthe total number of produced tanks and SP guns.
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  #3  
Old 01 Jun 09, 05:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
42,700 lost German and its satellites' tanks and SP guns - he wrote that Germany and its satellites lost all its produced weapon, 42,700 isthe total number of produced tanks and SP guns.
Zdravstvui Andrey!

Thank you for translation, I wasnt sure about it, my russian is not so good.

However, in other sources they mention bigger german production
Here is nicely listed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...g_World_War_II
It seems that figure of 42,700 is the figure of war production only, so obviously german losses should be higher than Krivosheev claims.

Also, do you know more about Krivosheev list of tank losses?
In operations list total is 63229, what happened to other 33.000? It is major difference, is it possible they were mostly non-combat losses?
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  #4  
Old 01 Jun 09, 05:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vathra View Post
Zdravstvui Andrey!

Thank you for translation, I wasnt sure about it, my russian is not so good.

However, in other sources they mention bigger german production
Here is nicely listed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...g_World_War_II
It seems that figure of 42,700 is the figure of war production only, so obviously german losses should be higher than Krivosheev claims.

Also, do you know more about Krivosheev list of tank losses?
In operations list total is 63229, what happened to other 33.000? It is major difference, is it possible they were mostly non-combat losses?
1. I don't trust to Wikipedia

2. It is necessary to read Krivosheev with very large attention.

http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...er5_13_09.html

here is about military equipment
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Old 01 Jun 09, 05:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
1. I don't trust to Wikipedia

2. It is necessary to read Krivosheev with very large attention.

http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...er5_13_09.html

here is about military equipment
1. Neither do I, but it is good starting point. On Achtung Panzer site data are pretty confusing. Do you know some other site or source?

2. Yes, I have that link, this where I found those data.
However, german tank production is not given here in details.
Regarding strategic operations, here is one qoute
Quote:
В стратегических операциях войска потеряли 62,2 % стрелкового оружия, 65,6 % танков и САУ, 56,8 % орудий и минометов и 60 % боевых самолетов от всех потерь, понесенных за войну
Isn't it strange that during fiercest fighting, when frontlines were moved rapidly, soviets lost slightly more than half of equipment, in total losses? It would mean that on other fronts fighting was also very heavy, or I am missing something?
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Old 01 Jun 09, 05:46
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Soviet casualties

63,229 - losses in the mentioned strategic operations only. The others were lost in other (smaller) combats or due mechanical breakdowns.

It is written over the table 189 that Soviet troops lost 65.6 % of all tank losses for the whole war.

German casualties

32,500 - irreversible casualties in the Soviet-German Front.

Later the number of 42,700 is used as whole casulaties in WWII (produced before and during WWII). But then it is written in brackets that this number doesn't include casualties from September, 1st 1939 till June 22nd of 1941. I don't understand what does it mean as both the sentences contradict to each other.. Maybe it is due mistakes of scanning....
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Old 01 Jun 09, 05:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vathra View Post
1. Neither do I, but it is good starting point. On Achtung Panzer site data are pretty confusing. Do you know some other site or source?
I am not an expert in this question. maybe amvas...

Quote:
Isn't it strange that during fiercest fighting, when frontlines were moved rapidly, soviets lost slightly more than half of equipment, in total losses? It would mean that on other fronts fighting was also very heavy, or I am missing something?
I don't see anything strange.

many fights were done beyond of strategic operations
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Old 01 Jun 09, 06:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
I don't see anything strange.
many fights were done beyond of strategic operations
Here is explanation, taken from human losses
Quote:
При анализе общего числа людских потерь действующих армии и флота на советско-германском фронте (таблицы 140, 141, 143) обращает на себя внимание тот факт, что 74,5 % из них приходится на стратегические и самостоятельные фронтовые операции. Если в стратегических операциях безвозвратные потери составили 6 270,2 тыс. чел. (55,6 % от всех безвозвратных потерь за войну), то в самостоятельных фронтовых операциях, проводившихся вне рамок стратегических, они составили 2124,5 тыс. чел. (18,8 % от всех безвозвратных потерь). Следовательно, в ходе указанных операций советские войска и силы флота безвозвратно потеряли 8 394,7 тыс. чел., а оставшееся число 2878,4 тыс. из 11 273 тыс. человек (25,5 %) падает на периоды, когда активных боевых действий на советско-германском фронте не велось.
It is very interesting to see that 1/4 of soviet casualties were during non-active phase on front-line, and that 5/9 were during strategic operations, and 1/5 during local operations. Losses in equipment follow similar pattern.
I think it tells a lot about nature of soviet-germant front!
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Old 01 Jun 09, 06:57
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I have a couple questions, firstly what was the difference between German and Russian tanks, secondly did it make any difference. If Russia could produce huge amounts of artillery does the quality matter, Russian tanks were only fighting on one front where as Germany had to contend with a few. Sorry if that didn't make any sense.
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Old 01 Jun 09, 09:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vathra View Post
It is very interesting to see that 1/4 of soviet casualties were during non-active phase on front-line, and that 5/9 were during strategic operations, and 1/5 during local operations. Losses in equipment follow similar pattern.
I think it tells a lot about nature of soviet-germant front!
It was a huge attrition war.

German losses also were very high.

It was a huge slaughterhouse for both sides...

Last edited by Andrey; 01 Jun 09 at 09:43..
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Old 01 Jun 09, 09:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecilia View Post
I have a couple questions, firstly what was the difference between German and Russian tanks, secondly did it make any difference. If Russia could produce huge amounts of artillery does the quality matter, Russian tanks were only fighting on one front where as Germany had to contend with a few. Sorry if that didn't make any sense.
Soviet T-34 were best

if to speak aboutthe amount...

look how many military equipment western allies had in western europe in 1944-45. their supremacy in equipment was absolute.
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Old 01 Jun 09, 10:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecilia View Post
I have a couple questions, firstly what was the difference between German and Russian tanks, secondly did it make any difference. If Russia could produce huge amounts of artillery does the quality matter, Russian tanks were only fighting on one front where as Germany had to contend with a few. Sorry if that didn't make any sense.
I started to write you big answer, but my computer crashed (for the first time in several months)

In short list, at the beginning of war soviets had lot of tanks, but most were obsolete and in need of repair.
They also had new tanks, T-34 medium and KV havy tanks. They were very good design, and with improvements were produced throughout the war.

Germans had more experience in combat. They had 3-man turret in tanks, so commander and gunner had more time to look around and plan. They also had radio, so they could effectively cooperate with other tanks and units.

Most important, german tanks were in armoured divisions, which were used to break through enemy position. By comparison, soviets had just started to make armoured divisions/corps, and most of their tanks were spread around infantry units.

---

Soviet artillery was very good, and germans gladly used captured pieces. Mass production can cut costs and price dramatically - for instance T-34 at the end of war costed two times less then at the beginning, although it was heavier and better armed!

---

Soviets also kept large force against Japan.
Before Normandy landings in 1944, germans had most of forces on eastern front.
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Old 01 Jun 09, 10:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
It was a huge attrition war.

German losses also were very high.

It was a huge slaughterhouse for both sides...
Modern western media in last 2 decades tells very biased picture about GPW.
That is why I am interested to find more about it.

I think opening of soviet archive and Krivosheev study helped a lot to see true picture about it. But it is also important to get correct data from other side. (still missing)
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Old 01 Jun 09, 12:10
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Thanks Vathra
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Old 01 Jun 09, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vathra View Post
Modern western media in last 2 decades tells very biased picture about GPW.
In the last two decades, modern western media has gone from presenting 1960's point of view to 1980's мировозрение. They are still a decade behind in updating their information using Russian sources.

Quote:
I think opening of Soviet archive and Krivosheev study helped a lot to see true picture about it. But it is also important to get correct data from other side. (still missing)
You may not be asking in the right places. There is a corpus of people who are very interested in the German military, and no doubt this information was recovered after the war, and any missing records have been reconstructed by close estimates. For German tanks, cetainly, practically every serial number is documented.

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