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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #61  
Old 03 May 09, 09:04
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Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
Saakhashwili would not dared to make something substantial without US orders, for he is unpopular in Georgia.
He had to do something as Georgia was attacked by the RF.

Quote:
As if it has sense for Georgia to be separate, when about 30% Georgians moved to Russia after separation; Georgia is 100% dependent from Russia economically.
You are mistaken. Since Saakashvillli coming to power the relations with Russia has grown weaker. After the last war, the economic ties are mainly broken so "100% dependent from Russia" is your fantasy.

Quote:
May be there would be more of them, but people and authorities in Russia are not very happy with millions immigrants and gastarbeiters from former USSR states, who often do not comply with local ways and habits as it is the case in Europe with immigrants from Moslem states.
Georgians can hardly be described as gastarbeiters in Russia. Most of them are not gastarbeiters.
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  #62  
Old 03 May 09, 16:05
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Okay, if no one else will ask, I will! What the heck is a gastarbeiter?
It does not sound complimentary!

Pruitt
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  #63  
Old 03 May 09, 16:19
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Guest worker? I think it´s German
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  #64  
Old 03 May 09, 16:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
Stone break a track of the tank? Invent something more realistic.
It´s realstic I have seen it happen. Check youtube.

Quote:
Piece of a sidewalk?
Yep, broke the track and made the tank inmobile

Quote:
Only some large concrete blocks that can be moved only by cranes will be helpful. Georgia is much smaller than Iraq so time for constructing some obstacles are absent. Besides In case Iraq the was the preparation period for the war. It is clear that the Georgians had no preparations for war.
Since they attaked? I can´t recall that Germany had any great amount of defensive preperations when they attaked Poland.

Why do you drag Iraq into this?

Quote:
Russians as individuals can be easily manipulated and subjugated to anyone.
care to explain?
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  #65  
Old 03 May 09, 16:50
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
Russians as individuals can be easily manipulated and subjugated to anyone.
Your racism has always been clear to anyone able to read between the lines, but now it's shone in its most clear and unmitigated form. Let's see what the moderators will say.
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  #66  
Old 03 May 09, 17:25
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What does being Russian have to do with race? Americans are composed of just about every "race" possible. I always thought Russians were as mixed as most other Eurasian ethnic groups. Perhaps there is something lost in translation from Russian to English?

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  #67  
Old 03 May 09, 17:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
What does being Russian have to do with race? Americans are composed of just about every "race" possible. I always thought Russians were as mixed as most other Eurasian ethnic groups. Perhaps there is something lost in translation from Russian to English?

Pruitt
So hating blacks and Jews is racist, but hating Russians isn't? In the modern English language the word "racist" is broadly applied to all kinds of ethnic hatred and bias.

Merriam-Webster dictionary definition:

Main Entry:
3race
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date:
1580

1: a breeding stock of animals2 a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics3 a: an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species ; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b: breed c: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits4obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition5: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength
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  #68  
Old 03 May 09, 17:37
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Shaa,

In English being Russian refers to coming from the country of Russia. From what I have read, Russia has a number of the various ethnic groups inside the county's boundaries. Blacks and Jews are ethnic groups as are, say Kalmucks, Chechyns and Bulgars. As you go from West to East, are not the "Great Russians" a bit mixed with the locals?

I have no problem with Russians as a group. Every one I have met have been fine people. It is possible the not so nice ones are not in my area! Groups of people are usually good, it is those individuals you have to watch out for! Same as over here!

Pruitt
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  #69  
Old 03 May 09, 17:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Shaa,

In English being Russian refers to coming from the country of Russia. From what I have read, Russia has a number of the various ethnic groups inside the county's boundaries. Blacks and Jews are ethnic groups as are, say Kalmucks, Chechyns and Bulgars. As you go from West to East, are not the "Great Russians" a bit mixed with the locals?

I have no problem with Russians as a group. Every one I have met have been fine people. It is possible the not so nice ones are not in my area! Groups of people are usually good, it is those individuals you have to watch out for! Same as over here!

Pruitt
From the context in which Shamil used this phrase it is perfectly clear he meant ethnic Russians. And no one in the Ukraine (and Russia for that matter) operates the notion you've brought up.

There are, by the way, two words to denote an ethnic Russian and a Russian national - russkiy and rossiyanin. An ethnic Kalmyk or a Tartar would correct you if you called him Russian - although it wouldn't be a general rule and is determined by multiple factors like his political affiliations or the context.

And after all, do you think Shamil's phrase is not offensive when applied to all ethnicities inhabiting Russia as a whole?
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  #70  
Old 03 May 09, 18:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
Saakhashwili would not dared to make something substantial without US orders, for he is unpopular in Georgia.


As if it has sense for Georgia to be separate, when about 30% Georgians moved to Russia after separation; Georgia is 100% dependent from Russia economically. May be there would be more of them, but people and authorities in Russia are not very happy with millions immigrants and gastarbeiters from former USSR states, who often do not comply with local ways and habits as it is the case in Europe with immigrants from Moslem states.
Ok I done with this one since obviously you think the US is a master manipulator and is behind everything that is bad in Russia.

You might have a point on the second but I am gonna guess that Russia likes having that kind of depence since it allows them to possibly control them. Russia should not forcfully retain Chechnya and then condem Georgia for doing the same.
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Old 03 May 09, 19:18
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post

care to explain?
In the Russian empire the status of the majority of Russians always was the lowest and tantamount to the status of an African in the US of that period. The upper class in the Russian empire was extremely multinational and French-spoken. In the USSR the status of Russians comparing to other nationalities wasn’t raised either. The bulk of Soviet leadership was of non-Russian origin. However, the Russians were the most obedient executives of the will of Soviet regime in comparison to other nationalities.

On the whole Russians have preferred total dictatorship throughout their history. The true nature and priorities of dictatorship have not been particularly important for them.

Both history and present time clearly show that Russian political mentality is Muscovite feudal one. They want their leaders to be tsars and boyars and not some presidents and officials in Western understanding of this word.

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  #72  
Old 04 May 09, 03:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
In the Russian empire the status of the majority of Russians always was the lowest and tantamount to the status of an African in the US of that period. The upper class in the Russian empire was extremely multinational and French-spoken. In the USSR the status of Russians comparing to other nationalities wasn’t raised either. The bulk of Soviet leadership was of non-Russian origin. However, the Russians were the most obedient executives of the will of Soviet regime in comparison to other nationalities.

On the whole Russians have preferred total dictatorship throughout their history. The true nature and priorities of dictatorship have not been particularly important for them.

Both history and present time clearly show that Russian political mentality is Muscovite feudal one. They want their leaders to be tsars and boyars and not some presidents and officials in Western understanding of this word.
Seeing Ukrainian circus orange democracy, I certainly do prefer tsars and boyars. When Russia was more democratic, it was defeated by Chinghis Khan, under tsars it became big country, managed to defend its territory, and existed for centuries. After overthrowing last tsar Russia was robbed by all neighbors, lost many millions of populace. Under Stalin's leadership it became industrial country and endured WWII, after democratic reforms it was desintegrated, army, industry, education system, science, culture destroyed. During Khruschev-Brezhnev’s times such level of criminality and corruption as nowadays was unthinkable, nobody even dared to think about terrorism. Well, leaders of Russia were of other ethnicity, but what difference makes cat’s color, if it catches mouse? Russia was/is union of many nationalities, this never was secret.
During stormy weather there is no place for democracy on the board of ship, and Russia always was in such state. Even in US not all is smooth with democracy.

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Old 04 May 09, 04:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craven View Post
Ok I done with this one since obviously you think the US is a master manipulator and is behind everything that is bad in Russia.
So you think it is not? Sorry, but there are many facts about US behind Russia’s woes. Bolsheviks for example, and privatization during Yeltsyn's gang rule.
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Originally Posted by craven View Post
You might have a point on the second but I am gonna guess that Russia likes having that kind of depence since it allows them to possibly control them. Russia should not forcfully retain Chechnya and then condem Georgia for doing the same.
Wrong case. Chechens under Dudaev were having widest autonomy, they used it to stop and rob passenger trains, peasants in neighboring regions, tortured, killed and enslaved people. They wanted such sort of independency, when they were allowed freely come to Russia to terrorize population, while nobody can sent them to prison for crimes because of they were independent. Ossetians were not in slave trade and terrorism buiseness. Georgians have killed Russian soldiers and Ossetian civilians who were under protection of Russia. What would be reaction of US in such situation? They invaded Afghanistan under dubious pretext while it is not even their neighbor. Why Russia must be more PC?

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Old 04 May 09, 08:26
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Originally Posted by Fareasterner View Post
So you think it is not? Sorry, but there are many facts about US behind Russia’s woes. Bolsheviks for example, and privatization during Yeltsyn's gang rule.
And how many Americans were there among Russian oligarchs under Yeltsin gang rule?

Quote:
Wrong case. Chechens under Dudaev were having widest autonomy, they used it to stop and rob passenger trains, peasants in neighboring regions, tortured, killed and enslaved people. They wanted such sort of independency, when they were allowed freely come to Russia to terrorize population, while nobody can sent them to prison for crimes because of they were independent.
Chechen criminals has got such independence under Putin. Kadyrov's clan used to be the main trader and owner of Russian slaves and Putin decorated the main slave traders with the orders of heroes of Russia. Now Chechnya receives contributons from Moscow and Russians work for Kadyrov regime. Chechen criminals have the status of Russian police and security services and can freely come to Russia to terrorize population though you won't be told about it in the news.


Quote:
Ossetians were not in slave trade and terrorism buiseness. Georgians have killed Russian soldiers and Ossetian civilians who were under protection of Russia. What would be reaction of US in such situation? They invaded Afghanistan under dubious pretext while it is not even their neighbor. Why Russia must be more PC?
Since the early 1990s both Ossetias have been known for producing the significant part of dangerously low-quality counterfeit spirits that kill about 40000 Russians annually.
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Old 04 May 09, 09:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
. . .

On the whole Russians have preferred total dictatorship throughout their history. The true nature and priorities of dictatorship have not been particularly important for them.

Both history and present time clearly show that Russian political mentality is Muscovite feudal one. They want their leaders to be tsars and boyars and not some presidents and officials in Western understanding of this word.
By that logic, Europeans "preferred" monarchy right up until the 18th century but suddenly just changed their minds? History is not destiny.

Before citizens can become responsible voters, able to run a democracy, they first must become economically responsible, able to run an economy, i.e. able to understand the economic impact of their own decisions and assume responsibility for the consequences. Those skills translate to understanding the consequences of political decisions (very often economic themselves) made by the electorate and accepting responsibility for those as well. Being dependent on boyars, oligarchs, or commissars is equally bad in the transition from serfdom to freedom.

The transition to a functioning free society and democratic government took about five centuries in Europe and spread from there to the Western hemisphere. Russia got a late start. It's first experience with open government was probably too much too soon but it was a start and we have no reason to believe that Russians will not demand progressively greater political accountability from their leaders with each generation.

The Russian experience is not that unique. Revolutions are far more likely to turn out like 19th century France than like 20th century Czechoslovakia. So far Russia has managed to split the difference so there is still good reason to hope for a better future.
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