HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

Notices and Announcements

South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 13 May 09, 12:41
Erkki's Avatar
Erkki Erkki is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Sami
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Real Name: Erik
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 13,962
Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700]
When Georgia lunched a military offensive with the purpose of retakaking the regions by force.

Quote:
I do know howevever that the war could have been easily averted by Russia, there could not have been any SO shelling and/or sniper fire without Russian support.
How?

Quote:
know also that Russian invasion or intervention no matter how you want to call it was inexcusable act of aggression and different in several important ways from the Kosovo, Iraq or Afganistan situations.
No an response to a aggresssion havenīt, isnīt or will ever be an act of aggression in itself. You can twist it how much you like.


Quote:
I also know that Putin did not do it because he cares about Ossetians, but because he wants to punish Georgia and to stop the democratic reforms in Georgia. Since the economic sanctions didn't work he upped the ante.
And he would like to do that beacause? Letīs hear, I am waiting.
__________________
“For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

Max Sterner
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 13 May 09, 12:46
ShAA's Avatar
ShAA ShAA is online now
General of the Forums
Russia
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Petersburg
Posts: 12,046
ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
there could not have been any SO shelling and/or sniper fire without Russian support.
Wow, what a ridiculous claim. There is plenty of artillery and especially sniper fire in the Caucasus made without any Russian support - different clans exacting blood feud upon each other and extremists of all kinds killing people. There have been numerous reports of crimes against Kosovan Serbs by Albanian nationlists - were they done with the support of NATO forces that are supposed to "keep peace" there? According to your logic, nothing can happen without their consent? You simply hate and distrust Russia and everything Russian - and this is fine to have this opinion, but if you want to have an argument, present facts and sound logic only and keep your bias to yourself.

Quote:
I know also that Russian invasion or intervention no matter how you want to call it was inexcusable act of aggression and different in several important ways from the Kosovo, Iraq or Afganistan situations.
And the difference is?

Quote:
I also know that Putin did not do it because he cares about Ossetians, but because he wants to punish Georgia and to stop the democratic reforms in Georgia. Since the economic sanctions didn't work he upped the ante.
Gotta love this logic of kindergarten good vs evil stories. Yeah, he's just a baddie that doesn't like people being free and happy
__________________
www.histours.ru

Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 13 May 09, 12:57
pp(est)'s Avatar
pp(est) pp(est) is offline
Major General
Estonia
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Estland/Fennia
Posts: 2,744
pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
When Georgia lunched a military offensive with the purpose of retakaking the regions by force.
Did Georgia do that or did it move to stop Russia from gaining an important foothold beyond Roki tunnel for an assault on Georgia?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
No an response to a aggresssion havenīt, isnīt or will ever be an act of aggression in itself. You can twist it how much you like.
We obviously disagree on what was the aggression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
And he would like to do that beacause? Letīs hear, I am waiting.
Putin is obsessed with colour revolutions. He knows he has no external threats, but is afraid of a home-brew resistance. He is smart enough to realize that popularity is a fickle thing - just look how Bush went from fairly popular to almost universally despised. To counter possible colour revolutions he jumps on any demonstration against him by anybody who could become credible, he has created his own street goon squads and he does his best to make sure the countries where the revolutions have happened would fail. In Georgia he started out with economic sanctions, but these ended up diversifying Georgian economy (which has been the case everywhere Russia has tried it). You get the point.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 13 May 09, 12:58
pp(est)'s Avatar
pp(est) pp(est) is offline
Major General
Estonia
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Estland/Fennia
Posts: 2,744
pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
Gotta love this logic of kindergarten good vs evil stories. Yeah, he's just a baddie that doesn't like people being free and happy
No he loves being all mighty and powerful. Quite natural really. Lots of guys in his place would've done the same.
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 13 May 09, 13:08
Erkki's Avatar
Erkki Erkki is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Sami
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Real Name: Erik
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 13,962
Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Did Georgia do that or did it move to stop Russia from gaining an important foothold beyond Roki tunnel for an assault on Georgia?
They did just that. Interesting caim you have there. But why would Russia need to assult Georgia?


Quote:
We obviously disagree on what was the aggression.
Naturaly


Quote:
Putin is obsessed with colour revolutions.
Perhaps he is afraid of them? They worked really well in Ukraine and Georgia

Quote:
He knows he has no external threats,
And what would NATO be?

Quote:
but is afraid of a home-brew resistance.
Actually, some Russian opposition parties scare me aswell.


Quote:
- just look how Bush went from fairly popular to almost universally despised.
fairly good reasons for that I think

Quote:
To counter possible colour revolutions he jumps on any demonstration against him by anybody who could become credible,he has created his own street goon squads and he does his best to make sure the countries where the revolutions have happened would fail.
They do that pretty well by themseves...
__________________
“For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

Max Sterner
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 13 May 09, 13:15
pp(est)'s Avatar
pp(est) pp(est) is offline
Major General
Estonia
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Estland/Fennia
Posts: 2,744
pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Perhaps he is afraid of them? They worked really well in Ukraine and Georgia
In fact in Georgia it did work very well. Before the war Georgia had made tremendous progress in modernising its legislation and opening up its economy. They had cracked down on corruption and changed the country into something resembling a country ruled by law.

I think a lot of those gains are maintained and Georgia could its progress without too much damage.

Of course it is still a country in transition and no Sweden. But if they can pull through the difficult bit I have high hopes for them.

Ukraine is more difficult. The orange revolution was wasted. While the political system is marginally cleaner than it was before, it is not by much. They've also not moved much on opening their economy nor have they improved their corruption level. A disappointment for sure.

Hopefully though, some new politicians spring up there and they can get past this phase under some new leadership. This requires though that the some basic elements of democracy won in the orange revolution can be maintained.
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 13 May 09, 13:18
pp(est)'s Avatar
pp(est) pp(est) is offline
Major General
Estonia
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Estland/Fennia
Posts: 2,744
pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200] pp(est) is walking in the light [200]
BTW Lukashenko is copying a lot of things from Georgia these days. He is of course hoping he can do the China thing with parts of market economy, plentiful foreign investments and all without political reform. I think it is only a matter of time before he is taken out by some colour revolution, because unlike China he doesn't have hundreds of millions of virtual slave labour in his sleeve.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 13 May 09, 13:19
ShAA's Avatar
ShAA ShAA is online now
General of the Forums
Russia
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St. Petersburg
Posts: 12,046
ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+] ShAA has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
No he loves being all mighty and powerful. Quite natural really. Lots of guys in his place would've done the same.
So is this the only argument you could bring up? I really pity Estonian justice - it must be even worse than it's described by the 1st channel
__________________
www.histours.ru

Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 01 Nov 09, 11:55
Poor Old Spike's Avatar
Poor Old Spike Poor Old Spike is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
UK
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: England
Posts: 1,288
Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100]
S.Ossetia President Eduard Kokoity (left) has powerful friends, Russian tanks..



More pretty pictures here- http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/FGMForu...ead.php?t=1636
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 01 Nov 09, 13:14
Erkki's Avatar
Erkki Erkki is offline
ACG Forums - Field Marshal
Sami
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
 
Real Name: Erik
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 13,962
Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700] Erkki is a glorious beacon of light [700]
More pictures here:

http://www.army.lv/eng/?s=2556
__________________
“For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

Max Sterner
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:32.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.