HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
British Heritage
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare Through the Ages > The Medieval Era

Notices and Announcements

The Medieval Era Discussions on Knights and Crusaders, and all things medieval!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 16 Mar 09, 23:29
Torien's Avatar
Torien Torien is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 
Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
SPQR Campaign 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Canton, Ohio
Posts: 13,752
Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Torien has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
Alina,

Arthur as he has come down to us certainly did not exist. However, an Authurian figure is another story, if only in shadow and whispers. He would not have been known as such at the time but would have simply been a Romano-Celtic chieftain or warlord from the 5th century fighting other tribes and/or the Saxons. But the myth would begin somewhere and be built upon bit by bit, enhanced by each telling of the tale until we get the story of round tables, moistened bints handing out swords, and wizards.

After all, the first recordings of the tale pre-date the medieval version by almost 800 years.
I am finding more to support the idea that Arthur was a title as some here have suggested. The poems that the Wiki suggests are all that I have read so far, but in both cases (Aneirin & Taliesin) they seem to equate the very name as a substitute for Hero, but in a generic way.

This is really fun.

I have never done a serious study about the existence of Arthur before.
So all the stuff in Monty Python's Holy Grail isn't real?
__________________
History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. Napoleon Bonaparte
_________
BoRG
__________
"I am Arthur, King of the Britons!"
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 17 Mar 09, 00:07
Alina's Avatar
Alina Alina is offline
Captain
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
 
Real Name: Alina
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madtown, Wisconsin
Posts: 856
Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100]
The Purist -

The first versions of what? A tale of a British king uniting the country? That's hardly the same thing as a "King Arthur" as we know it in the medieval context. The medieval Arthur may have drawn upon certain extant legends to some degree or another, but that no more makes Arthur a real person than Tolkien's inspiration from early Germanic (particularly Anglo-Saxon) literature makes Lord of the Rings a true story. The fact is, the Chivalric romances of Chretien de Troyes and his contemporaries and followers were stories targeted at a medieval audience, told with medieval sensibilities in mind, about medieval people. When we take the stories of King Arthur and his knights and try to then search for historical antecedents, we're not really doing history. The simple fact, and one that is distasteful for some unfathomable reason, is that King Arthur didn't exist. Whether or not there was a warlord in the British Isles who fought and engaged in kingdom-building in the 5th and 6th centuries is absolutely immaterial. The two have nothing to do with one another.

I see a lot of people saying stuff (and not just here by any stretch of the imagination) to the effect of, "There was a real Arthur, but his name was probably Ambrosius, and he was actually a Roman, and there wasn't a real Camelot exactly, but he might have had a fortress of some kind, and..." It's ridiculous. That's like saying that Santa Claus is real because there was some guy named Bob who gave toys to children one Christmas in South Philly. He didn't live at the North Pole, but rather an apartment, and instead of eight reindeer, he had a car with eighty horsepower...

Last edited by Alina; 17 Mar 09 at 00:09..
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 17 Mar 09, 00:18
The Purist's Avatar
The Purist The Purist is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
England
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Gerry Proudfoot
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In my castle by the sea.
Posts: 11,149
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+] The Purist has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alina View Post
The Purist -

The first versions of what? A tale of a British king uniting the country?... <snip>
For me there is no "King Arthur" and even the chap I put forward from the one text isn't really "the man". I think the best you can hope for (without taking it too seriously) is to point to some chieftain or another in this period who was the inspiration for the story/poem/ballad that would grow into "Arthur".

I also doubt that there was a uniting of "the country" (it didn't really exist at that point),.... maybe a local victory over the invading Saxons, hardly a large force anyway, that sent them off in a different direction for a few years.
__________________
The Purist

Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 17 Mar 09, 00:24
Alina's Avatar
Alina Alina is offline
Captain
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
 
Real Name: Alina
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madtown, Wisconsin
Posts: 856
Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Purist View Post
For me there is no "King Arthur" and even the chap I put forward from the one text isn't really "the man". I think the best you can hope for (without taking it too seriously) is to point to some chieftain or another in this period who was the inspiration for the story/poem/ballad that would grow into "Arthur".

I also doubt that there was a uniting of "the country" (it didn't really exist at that point),.... maybe a local victory over the invading Saxons, hardly a large force anyway, that sent them off in a different direction for a few years.
Right, but see my earlier point about Santa Claus. I was being facetious, but it fits. Whether or not the guy you're talking about existed is immaterial to the story of King Arthur. He wasn't named Arthur, he didn't use the same armor and weapons as the Arthur in the story, he didn't have the same ideals or values as the Arthur in the story, he didn't live in a place called Camelot, I can pretty well guarantee he didn't have a castle or manor in the fashion of the late medieval period, he didn't have 'knights of the round table' or knights of any kind, he didn't have retainers named Lancelot or Gallahad, or any of the others, he may not have even been Christian. At what point do we have to say that they're not the same person?

I realize that you get that, but I think it's important that people realize Arthur didn't exist. He just wasn't real. Whether there were legends that sprouted up from a late antique antecedent just doesn't matter.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 17 Mar 09, 04:39
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is online now
General of the Forums
Wales
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 14,492
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alina View Post
Right, but see my earlier point about Santa Claus. I was being facetious, but it fits. Whether or not the guy you're talking about existed is immaterial to the story of King Arthur. He wasn't named Arthur, he didn't use the same armor and weapons as the Arthur in the story, he didn't have the same ideals or values as the Arthur in the story, he didn't live in a place called Camelot, I can pretty well guarantee he didn't have a castle or manor in the fashion of the late medieval period, he didn't have 'knights of the round table' or knights of any kind, he didn't have retainers named Lancelot or Gallahad, or any of the others, he may not have even been Christian. At what point do we have to say that they're not the same person?

I realize that you get that, but I think it's important that people realize Arthur didn't exist. He just wasn't real. Whether there were legends that sprouted up from a late antique antecedent just doesn't matter.
In reply to the above I will use something earlier I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
While it is likely King Arthur was a composite of many characters, much like Robin Hood (another thread perhaps), the popularity of King Arthur remains. First, you have the actual saga itself, a cracking good yarn whether you believe the story or not.

Then you have three major time periods where the story served as something more, and which kept the saga frsh in the public consciousness. Apart from the initial Welsh literature, the first sagas became popular just after the Norman Conquest in 1066. The reason for this is quite simple. The Normans (who also controlled Celtic Brittany) wanted to show they were actually the same peoples as those who had fought against the Saxons centuries earlier. They were merely returning home (that was the propaganda). This carried on until as late as Edward I's time, when he and Eleanor arrived at Glastonbury to pay homage to the recently discovered bones of Arthur and Guinevere. The propaganda then was that Edward and his Queen were the reimbodiment of these two famous souls.

The second major period was during Henry VII, a Welsh born king, who wanted to link himself to the Arthurian legend. Indeed he called his first son Arthur, although the latter died before he could become king. Probably the most famous piece of literature comes from this period - La Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Mallory.

The third major period was the end of the Victorian period, when escapism was the theme. Life in Victorian Britain could be pretty vile for most. This era is has Lord Alfred Tennysons Morte D'Arthur as the most important piece of work.
The Arthur we know today has had at least three layers of imagery embellished upon his person. But to say he did not exist is extremely unlikely for a number of reasons. The single main reason is the name itself. The name Arthur did not exist until around 525AD or so. Suddenly it crops up everywhere in Wales. It's pretty standard to name children after someone famous, royalty or both. The name Arthur is also likely to be nick name or totem creature the Character was said to be like, a typical Celtic practice. Arth certainly means bear, a fitting name for a warrior. Think of a Viking Beserker - one definition of which is Bearskin and relating to their strength and frenzy.

In fact a more than suitable figure for the kernal of the myth of King Arthur has been known for almost two decades now, but a Celtic warlord living in a dying city, just does not hold the same glorious image of the High Medieval Once and Future King, with its magic swords, heroic knights, conniving witches and mystical quests.

Books on the era tend to come in two types. One tries to reveal the facts about Dark Age Britain. The second tries to find out who the king actually was, usually manipulating, exaggerating or ignoring facts to make their candidate plausible. I'm hoping to find the middle ground with this thread, and asking what was actually going on in Britain to make the legend possible.
__________________
BoRG
I will either find a way or make one.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 17 Mar 09, 12:05
Alina's Avatar
Alina Alina is offline
Captain
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
 
Real Name: Alina
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madtown, Wisconsin
Posts: 856
Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100] Alina has demonstrated strength of character [100]
I just think it's interesting that people take the most boring part of the Arthurian romances to analyze. Trying to research some historical predecessor to the Arthur stories ignores what the stories themselves have to tell us. The real value of Chretien de Troyes' stories like Eric and Enide or Cliges, or whatever is that they teach us a ton about 12th century arms, armor, warfare, tactics, and the thought process behind honor and violence at the time. For instance, in many of these stories, the knight takes his defeated enemies' armor and horses. So, he kills guys, and then strips the bodies of this very valuable equipment. Hardly what we would think of as honorable in a Victorian sense, but it displays medieval sensibilities. This armor is rare, it's expensive, it's something you wouldn't just leave lying around, so you strip the bodies. That's a neat insight into knightly behavior from the time period, and it's just one of many insights that can be drawn from these stories.

So, I don't understand the allure of trying to find some dark age guy who vaguely resembles some kind of Arthur legend. To me, it's much more interesting and much more important to analyze these stories as medieval source documents, and to discover what they tell us about life at the time, specifically life in a military context.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 17 Mar 09, 12:40
Roadkiller's Avatar
Roadkiller Roadkiller is offline
Major General
Canada
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: Art
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: HQ
Posts: 2,821
Roadkiller is simply cracking [600]
Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600] Roadkiller is simply cracking [600]
Regarding Excalibur:

The following hypothosis is proposed by the author Jack Whyte who penned the fine Eagles/Camulod series which lays out a fictional but plausible 'historical' Arthur. (Whyte was born and raised in Scotland but emigrated to Canada in 1967, more about him and his work here: http://www.camulod.com/ )

The name of the sword Excalibur comes from the root that gives us the term caliber for guns. It was a Roman forging process using sand molds (I don't know the details).

The idea is that about the 6th century the stirrup was introduced to Europe. This made is practical for a man to fight with a sword from horseback. But of course the archtypal Gladius was far to short. A prototype weapon was forged, which along with other attributes was long enough to be usable from horseback. The most advanced forging techniques were necessary because of the qualities of the weapon.

The weapon came "out of" (i.e. Ex) "the mold" (i.e. the root of caliber) and was hence called Excalibur.

It's a great story if nothing else!
__________________
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 17 Mar 09, 12:46
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is online now
General of the Forums
Wales
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 14,492
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alina View Post
I just think it's interesting that people take the most boring part of the Arthurian romances to analyze. Trying to research some historical predecessor to the Arthur stories ignores what the stories themselves have to tell us. The real value of Chretien de Troyes' stories like Eric and Enide or Cliges, or whatever is that they teach us a ton about 12th century arms, armor, warfare, tactics, and the thought process behind honor and violence at the time. For instance, in many of these stories, the knight takes his defeated enemies' armor and horses. So, he kills guys, and then strips the bodies of this very valuable equipment. Hardly what we would think of as honorable in a Victorian sense, but it displays medieval sensibilities. This armor is rare, it's expensive, it's something you wouldn't just leave lying around, so you strip the bodies. That's a neat insight into knightly behavior from the time period, and it's just one of many insights that can be drawn from these stories.

So, I don't understand the allure of trying to find some dark age guy who vaguely resembles some kind of Arthur legend. To me, it's much more interesting and much more important to analyze these stories as medieval source documents, and to discover what they tell us about life at the time, specifically life in a military context.
This is exactly the strength of the legend. Its different things to different people. I prefer Wace for the Norman period, probably because he is a countryman of mine. This is the man who added the round table and a type of chivalric order, possibly for the first time, where all knights were equal. Of course, Lancelot sitting at the right hand side of Arthur was more equal than others.

The Normans had a dynamism about them, bordering on the impetuous. Their method of warfare, take/steal land and build a fortification on it, was very sucessful. They were a form of Military Entrepeneur, poor boys made good. With Wace, suddenly they could aspire to something more as well; not just sucessful thieves, but heroes and equals amongst themselves. It would also suit a king to spread these stories to the knights, in order to help quell potential unrest with the order. Certainly Edward III created the Order of The Garter to keep his troublesome knights in line, using psychological rather then military or financial means. He even created a round table, still on show in Winchester.



http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur/winchester.html

Add what elements you want to the thread. Military, social and political, whatever you want.
__________________
BoRG
I will either find a way or make one.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 18 Mar 09, 10:52
Arthwys's Avatar
Arthwys Arthwys is offline
General
Canada
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
SPQR Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shawn
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 50 58'34.10"N 115 35'04.87"W
Posts: 4,813
Arthwys is simply cracking [600]
Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600]
Indeed the "fiction" of the Arthur of Geoffrey, and De Troyes among others who continue down the years was tailored for the time and audience.

Alina, as for why we have a facination into the historical Figure(s) that the legend came from is that he (they) contributed to What an entire people see as their salvation from obliteration on a cultural level.
You don't see a lot of instances where for generations afterward one persons name becomes the most popular name for children.
you didn't see a lot of kids being named Montgomery, or "Ike" or "Patton", but we do see whole generations who named their offspring after an Arthur Figure.
__________________
BoRG
'A Battle is the Shield Wall. It's smelling your enemy's breath while he tries to disembowel you with an axe'
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 18 Mar 09, 12:33
HappyWlad's Avatar
HappyWlad HappyWlad is offline
Sergeant Major
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 337
HappyWlad is on the path to success [1-99] HappyWlad is on the path to success [1-99] HappyWlad is on the path to success [1-99] HappyWlad is on the path to success [1-99]
So, just for arguments sake, if it wasn't Arthur, who or what stopped the highly agressive Germanic invaders for 50-70 years? And what caused them to "reinvade" after 50-70 years?

Wlad
__________________
The only thing that matters is how well you walk through the fire.
Charles Bukowski
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 18 Mar 09, 12:48
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is online now
General of the Forums
Wales
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 14,492
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyWlad View Post
So, just for arguments sake, if it wasn't Arthur, who or what stopped the highly agressive Germanic invaders for 50-70 years? And what caused them to "reinvade" after 50-70 years?

Wlad
DNA profiling has shown there was no major invasion after the Romans left. It was a cultural change. The 'English' Celts seemed to have hated the Romans, the reason why so many Roman units were on hand, while the 'Welsh' tribes seemed happier. This compares with the Vikings centuries later, and the area they controlled under Danelaw. Definite DNA differences here. Also a large number of provable battlefields when dealing with Vikings. A large battle did see 'Welsh' Celts decisively defeat 'English' Celts at Badon Hill, but the details of which are sketchy at best. Enough that hundreds of miles seperate possible locations of the battlesite.
__________________
BoRG
I will either find a way or make one.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 19 Mar 09, 10:01
Arthwys's Avatar
Arthwys Arthwys is offline
General
Canada
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
SPQR Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shawn
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 50 58'34.10"N 115 35'04.87"W
Posts: 4,813
Arthwys is simply cracking [600]
Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600] Arthwys is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
A large battle did see 'Welsh' Celts decisively defeat 'English' Celts at Badon Hill, but the details of which are sketchy at best. Enough that hundreds of miles seperate possible locations of the battlesite.
Which battle was this Nick?
I need references as I've not heard of this
btw English and Celts are not inclusive terms. The 'english' were Germanic tribes inhabiting the areas now known as the Netherlands and west Germany.
__________________
BoRG
'A Battle is the Shield Wall. It's smelling your enemy's breath while he tries to disembowel you with an axe'
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 19 Mar 09, 11:39
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is online now
General of the Forums
Wales
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 14,492
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthwys View Post
Which battle was this Nick?
I need references as I've not heard of this
btw English and Celts are not inclusive terms. The 'english' were Germanic tribes inhabiting the areas now known as the Netherlands and west Germany.
Badon Hill was theoretically a battle between Romano-Celts led by Arthur defeating an invading force of Saxons (but probably 'English' Celts). I used the term 'English' Celts to imply Celts from England, not a Anglo Saxon-Celt hybrid that was the prevalent view until recently. I believe the current English, and dna testing seems to support this, were the Britons who quickly adopted Germanic culture. The Welsh kept their roots, and this may have been due to being treated better by the Romans, due to the fact they needed the locals friendly for two reasons. One was copper and gold mining, and fortunately near to a source of tin (from Cornwall) to make bronze. The second was the Isle of Anglesey, a major bread basket for Rome. Yet, another reason why the Welsh may have found it easier to keep to their roots was that Anglesey was the spiritual home of the druids, even if Suetonius Paulinus had destroyed the sacred groves in AD60.
__________________
BoRG
I will either find a way or make one.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 19 Mar 09, 11:58
peter_sym's Avatar
peter_sym peter_sym is offline
Brigadier General
UK
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 2,339
peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100] peter_sym has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Bernard Cornwell wrote three superb fictional books about Arthur. I find Cornwell a remarkably sensible man and his opinions on Arthur were highly convincing.

The first is why was there no record of him at the time? Cornwells answer was that Arthur was a pagan (highly likely in 500AD) and therefore an enemy of the early church who are unlikely to write favourable things about him. If he fought the Saxons in the 500's then that means central and western England, not Scotland. Its significant that the legend lives on strongest in Wales and Cornwall.

One very strong piece of evidence in favour of him living was an unusual incidence of children being named Arthur at the same time Saxon expansion westward was checked for a generation. Its a reasonable assumption that the kids were being named for the hero of the day. Cornwell believes that Arthur WASN'T a king, but was rather a warlord or general. The legend that we was the bastard son of Uther is compatible with him leading men in battle but not wearing a crown.

The medieval Arthur has no basis in reality but it defies reasonable belief that there was no basis at all to the older myths. I don't believe in God, but I would be utterly amazed if there wasn't a philosopher and teacher called Jesus who lived in Judea about 2000 years ago and got crucified for his troubles. Its the same principle with Arthur. There must be some original inspiration for the story.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 19 Mar 09, 13:51
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is online now
General of the Forums
Wales
5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 14,492
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I read his books, thoroughly enjoyed them and loved/hated the Lancelot character. Well worth a read whether you believe in the legend or not. Loved the fact that Lancelot was famous for his bravery, simply because he paid bards to broadcast that fact. Disappointed that Lancelot was included at all, since he does not appear until the Norman times.

Lancelot is almost certainly based on the story of Tristam, which is much older in origin.
__________________
BoRG
I will either find a way or make one.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:37.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.