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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #61  
Old 05 Apr 09, 00:55
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Originally Posted by Golani View Post
We don't owe Gaza anything, ever since they were given an autonomy.
If you ignore the fact you took away their land, killed thousands of their relatives, and put them into a sort of concentration camp... no, you don't owe them anything.

Quote:
The fact that we give them electricity, welfare and such, is a "favor".
I'm sure they know to appreciate all the electricity cut offs too. After all, they are in position to decide, aren't they?

Quote:
They are not depended on us...
Not the least. That's also why they have an "autonomy", and not what's their own.

Quote:
...and could get that from any other country with emphasis on their good neighbour Egypt...
- of course, wouldn't there be something called a "blockade", which prevents them from doing that.

Quote:
...only its better to take it from us, for three reasons.

1.Its free.
2.It comes of the Jews and not the Arabs.
3.You could always claim discrimination if you don't get it on time.
Yep, and that's also such a great excuse for Israeli behaviour as well, isn't it?

And overall, I actually must agree with all the people here who wonder so much about Palestinians in Gaza.

What to hell? It's a true fun park there. Terriffic parties, school excursions, fireworks, and so much joy and happiness for everybody there. It's such a fun living in Gaza, you can't imagine: like the entire Palestine, they've got more tourists than Las Vegas.

You know the fence around the place actually had to be put in place in order to keep the people outside? Half Israel stormed the place when a casino in Gaza opened, back in 1992. But it's already overcrowded inside, nobody would have any fun any more.

I guess that's why Israeli school kids always move around in well-organized school excursions. The fireworks resulting from these are of such size, the new year eve's party in Sidney harbour is nothing in comparission. Pitty such excursions regularly result in complaints from otherwise such friendly neighbours living outside the fence.

And since the place is so crowded, they imposed a rule that once you're out, you can't get back in any more. As surprising as it this hears, that decision caused quite some consternation on the part of local population: no wonder they are now digging tunnels to get back inside.

BTW, due to all the fireworks, kids can party the whole day. That's why they actually depend on Israel: somebody's got to serve all the boze and drugs after all. Can't put into words what brilliant opportunities for their future this opens. True ccassions.

In summary, pitty this fun park opened only in 2005, and not already in 1948.

Last edited by Walkyre; 05 Apr 09 at 01:40..
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  #62  
Old 05 Apr 09, 13:15
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IRC Egypt declined the return of Gaza under Camp David Agreement and I suspect that Gaza Arabs shud be gratfull for that becouse Arab methods of supresing the intergency and terrorism are quite extreme Hama style:


HAMA MASSACRE



From 03/1973 Syria was ruled by socialist secular Baath party and the Syrian Army led by Hafez al-Assad. The al-Assad family is Alawite and in order to strengthen their grip on power, as it is so common in the Middle East, all the key functions in the political party, the army and security services were in the hands of Alawites.



The Alawite minority keep to a particular interpretation of Islamic Shiaa. Many Sunnite scholars refer to the Alawites as an inferior agnostic sect. As a result a Sunnite violent Islamic underground, based on the Muslims Brotherhood, carried out intensive bloody terror attacks all over Syria in the late 70s’ and the early 80s’ as an opposition to Alawite regime.



After the January 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran, led by Ayatollah Khomeini Islamic motions were intensified all over the Muslim world including Syria and Sunnite terror attacks in Syria increased sharply.



On 02/02/1982 Islamists and other opposition activists proclaimed Hama a "liberated city" and urged Syrians to rise up against the "infidel" (meaning – Alawites). Brotherhood fighters swept the city of Baath supporters, breaking into the homes of government employees and suspected supporters of the regime and killed about 50 people.



The Syrian Baath Regime responded fast and surrounded the town of about 350.000 citizens with tanks, artillery and special units under the command of Rifaat al-Assad, the brother of the President Hafez al-Assad. The assault began with extensive shelling of the town. Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel. After a two-week battle, the town was securely in government hands again. The following several weeks witnessed torture and mass executions of suspected rebel sympathizers, killing many thousands, known as the “Hama Massacre”.



According to Amnesty International estimation between 10,000 and 25,000 were killed in “Hama Massacre”.



Summary



The Hama Massacre in 03/1982 put an end to any Islamic terror activity in Syria for more than 20 years. Islamic militants who managed to flee Syria to Europe were granted, in most cases, political asylum.

Many of those asylum seekers became later pillars of Islamic terror cells in Europe related to Al Qaeda and caused major concern to European Security Services.



Rifaat al-Assad, the executer of Hama Massacre, lived later many years in Spain and UK as a respected businessman and was never charged for committing any sort of War crimes against humanity.

http://www.globaljihad.net/view_page.asp?id=237
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  #63  
Old 06 Apr 09, 01:02
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Originally Posted by DracoBorealis View Post
IRC Egypt declined the return of Gaza under Camp David Agreement and I suspect that Gaza Arabs shud be gratfull for that becouse Arab methods of supresing the intergency and terrorism are quite extreme Hama style:
Let's say you're right, and Egypt indeed declined to "return" Gaza (to who?) under Camp David Agreement. Who was in control of Gaza until 2005? Who is launching "targeted killings" of the leaders of an terrorist organisation it supported during its emergence? Who is launching repeated attacks into Gaza ever since? And who put the place under economic blockade?

Somehow, the answer is not "Egypt"...

Quote:
HAMA MASSACRE

From 03/1973 Syria was ruled by socialist secular Baath party and the Syrian Army led by Hafez al-Assad.
Don't know what's the point with posting this, but large part of this article is little more but nonsence.

For example, the statement above is plain wrong. Almost every single word. The Syrian Ba'ath Party came to existence already in the 1940s, and to power in Damascus in 1963. Hafez al-Assad was a former fighter jet pilot of the Syrian Air Force, trained by the British on Meteors (provided you've ever heard about that fighter type, if not see here: Canberra Down!). He became a member of the Ba'ath Party in the early 1960s, while serving with a mixed Egyptian-Syrian squadron flying MiG-17s and based in Egypt.

This photo shows al-Assad (the man in top centre, leaning on cockpit rails of a Fiat G.59A training aircraft) with his colleagues during their basic training at the Syrian Air Force Academy, in Minakh, near Aleppo, in the first half of 1950s.



Following the dissolution of the UAR, al-Assad was inprisoned by Egyptians for several months, before returning to Syria. In 1966, he became the Commander-in-Chief Syrian Air Force, and then the Minister of Defense. He remained in that position until climbing to power, in summer of 1970, in course of an inner-Ba'ath coup (i.e. full three years before what is stated in the article above).

A good read to this topic: "Damaskus", by Gerhard Konzelmann (don't know if available in English too), or various articles - including the one linked above - by Dr. David Nicolle (one of leading experts to the topic of Arab military history).

Quote:
The al-Assad family is Alawite and in order to strengthen their grip on power, as it is so common in the Middle East, all the key functions in the political party, the army and security services were in the hands of Alawites.
Not true again. The truth is that Alawites became dominant in Syrian politics for several reasons. The major issue was that majority of Sunis is enjoying a relatively good life in Syria, and were never particularly interested in politics or military. In essence, whoever is in power in Damascus, depends on cooperation of Suni merchants on four major souks of the city: if they shut down their doors, the country is standing still. Alawites, to the contrary, were particularly poor, and many of them - inlcuding al-Assad - joined the military because there were no prospects of improving their situation in civilian life.

Anyway, although the Alawites are dominant between leading Syrian dignitaries, they do not hold anything like "all key functions" in Damascus. Just one example that should be well-known to everyone around: the Syrian Minister of Defense from 1970 until the early 1990s was Mustafa Tlass - a Syrian Suni (his two sons, BTW, run the biggest company in Syria). Nowadays you can find Sunis in plenty of other crucial positions as well, even though most of them prefer to stay away from politics and earn good money as merchants.

Quote:
The Alawite minority keep to a particular interpretation of Islamic Shiaa. Many Sunnite scholars refer to the Alawites as an inferior agnostic sect. As a result a Sunnite violent Islamic underground, based on the Muslims Brotherhood, carried out intensive bloody terror attacks all over Syria in the late 70s’ and the early 80s’ as an opposition to Alawite regime.
Muslim Brotherhood ("MB") came to existence in Egypt already 30 or more years before. Nasser's government had to fight them repeatedly, and Sadat was assassinated by their sympathisers, back in 1981. They never became influential in Syria, foremost because Syrians are generaly not interested in such organisations. That's how comes that while nowadays there are sizeable portions of Egypt practically under MB control (and Egyptian authorities not trusting themselves to go to), in Syria there is nothing similar.

Quote:
The Syrian Baath Regime responded fast and surrounded the town of about 350.000 citizens with tanks, artillery and special units under the command of Rifaat al-Assad, the brother of the President Hafez al-Assad. The assault began with extensive shelling of the town. Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel. After a two-week battle, the town was securely in government hands again.
Oh my... Strangely enough, for all the "destruction" an operation of this size MUST have caused, Hamah looks particularly intact with plenty of annicient houses, mosques and other objects - all in their original condition. That is, provided you pay a visit to see with your own eyes, instead of reading somebody's propaganda on the internet. It's worth visit, that's sure.

Quote:
According to Amnesty International estimation between 10,000 and 25,000 were killed in “Hama Massacre”.
Yep. And the number of victims is climbing - with every new publication to this topic.

Guess some of authors writing such stuff might want to pay a visit to Hafez al-Assad Library, in Damascus, and check for original documents. It's a big white building on the eastern side of Omayaden Square, easy to find even on Google Earth. Can't miss it really, even though it's surrounded by trees. Plenty of place to park too (if not in front of the Library, then in front of the nearby National Opera House, or the Air Forces Headquarters).

Quote:
The Hama Massacre in 03/1982 put an end to any Islamic terror activity in Syria for more than 20 years.
Arguable at best. Time and again various minor incidents did occurr. The "problem" for MB (and not only for them) is that the Syrian security authorities have their country under quite a tight grip.

Quote:
Islamic militants who managed to flee Syria to Europe were granted, in most cases, political asylum.
Certainly nothing the Europeans should be proud of. See bellow why...

Quote:
Many of those asylum seekers became later pillars of Islamic terror cells in Europe related to Al Qaeda and caused major concern to European Security Services.
That's right. And that's a reason more to suspect all the US and Israeli claims about the Syrian government "cooperating" with al-Qaida...

Quote:
Rifaat al-Assad, the executer of Hama Massacre, lived later many years in Spain and UK as a respected businessman and was never charged for committing any sort of War crimes against humanity.
Aside that this article does not mention the reason that Rifat was forced to leave Syria (a coup attempt he plotted against his brother), it should now be surprising that he's living in France, right? Perhaps there are "few millions of green and paperly reasons" for that...

Last edited by Walkyre; 06 Apr 09 at 01:08..
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  #64  
Old 25 May 09, 19:11
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Originally Posted by RaduRO View Post
And what is the cutting off of electricity,water by Israel to Gaza? That isn't collective punishment? 2006,2007,2008 have all seen it not surprisingly coinciding with Hamas rule in Gaza. Would you like me to provide a list when Israel did so?
perhaps invest in creating your own electricity and water (like most normal societies) instead of buying weapons, and you wouldnt have such problems.
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  #65  
Old 26 May 09, 03:10
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Interesting argumentation.

Particularly since - when Iran does exactly that, then it's accused of "developing nuclear weapons"...
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  #66  
Old 26 May 09, 08:57
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Originally Posted by Walkyre View Post
Interesting argumentation.

Particularly since - when Iran does exactly that, then it's accused of "developing nuclear weapons"...
its not "argumentation", its a suggestion. Unemployment and inflation remain in the double digits with some estimates (of course ones not provided by the govt) in the mid twentieth percentile. This after a record year of oil revenue and profits no less. Estimates are that the Iranian govt needs the price of oil to fall within the mid 80's range to sustain its budget, yet with oil prices falling more than 25% below this level, they are still testing missiles. With the promise of a milion new jobs created per year up to 2010 by the govt back in 2005, Iran sees 250,000 jobless workers out of the 800,000 or so that enter the job market annually. As an American with a job, it still angers me to see my govt blowing money on further healthcare subsidies when i recognize we are running a tremendous deficit... its about priorities. I also become semi furious when i see how much money is spent on the Iraqi war. If i were an Iranian watching missile tests and speeches about nuclear research, i would say "hey, why the heck are we testing missiles instead of spending money on creating jobs". Promises were made that are not being kept (like most politicians of course).

Sigh, weve been through this before on the nuke issue... if there is nothing to hide, why hide it? if you are a member of NNPT, then abide by its terms.

simple, clean, easy...

Last edited by GeneralTsoGood; 26 May 09 at 09:07.. Reason: carelessnes....
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  #67  
Old 27 May 09, 03:06
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All of these figures and explanations matter very little in the IRI. Check the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Chapter "Introduction", if you don't believe me: Economy is "important", but "not decisive".

Private ownership is no problem, and accepted. There is even a stock exchange in Tehran, but a large part of industry remains is in the hands of state (actually in the hands of the IRGC), and the system functions entirely differently than as measured by Western standards.

So, for example, it does not matter how many people have no jobs there: the state cares about them (and that very good). That's one of major reasons why the government is as popular - particularly between underpriviledged Iranians. In essence, it's the same system like in other oil-rich countries in the area, such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain etc.

Quote:
I also become semi furious when i see how much money is spent on the Iraqi war.
Wellcome in the club! Though, if you are (only) "semi-furious" about spending on war in Iraq, you should check figures for defence of Israel and Korea too. That is trully mindbogling and makes me mad. After all, more of US taxpayer's money is spent for the defence of both of these, than either of these two countries spends on their own.

Quote:
If i were an Iranian watching missile tests and speeches about nuclear research, i would say "hey, why the heck are we testing missiles instead of spending money on creating jobs".
Hehe, who said they don't do that?

They create jobs - through producing missiles. The defence sector is meanwhile the second largest and most important industrial branch in Iran, right after oil&gas sector. Given that the defence sector is the major branch in the USA, it's not Iran who is doing something wrong...

Quote:
Sigh, weve been through this before on the nuke issue... if there is nothing to hide, why hide it?
So? But, what are they hiding? If you think they hide something then you have to have reasons for that standpoint. And, if you have reasons, then you ought to have evidence.

And vice-versa: if you don't have evidence, then you can't have a reason to aledge they hide anything... That's exactly the IAEA's conclusion, you like it or not.

Quote:
if you are a member of NNPT, then abide by its terms.
Have you got evidence they do that?

Quote:
simple, clean, easy...
Obviously not. Then, they do not hide anything (at least not in Iran), they do abide to NPT, and they are put under ever increasing pressure. Nevertheless.

In their place, what would you do? Tell to the USA and Israel, "oh, you so all-mighty people, do with us whatever you like?"

Get real. You wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. And Iranians even less so.
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  #68  
Old 27 May 09, 11:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkyre View Post
All of these figures and explanations matter very little in the IRI. Check the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Chapter "Introduction", if you don't believe me: Economy is "important", but "not decisive".

Private ownership is no problem, and accepted. There is even a stock exchange in Tehran, but a large part of industry remains is in the hands of state (actually in the hands of the IRGC), and the system functions entirely differently than as measured by Western standards.

So, for example, it does not matter how many people have no jobs there: the state cares about them (and that very good). That's one of major reasons why the government is as popular - particularly between underpriviledged Iranians. In essence, it's the same system like in other oil-rich countries in the area, such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain etc.

Wellcome in the club! Though, if you are (only) "semi-furious" about spending on war in Iraq, you should check figures for defence of Israel and Korea too. That is trully mindbogling and makes me mad. After all, more of US taxpayer's money is spent for the defence of both of these, than either of these two countries spends on their own.

Hehe, who said they don't do that?

They create jobs - through producing missiles. The defence sector is meanwhile the second largest and most important industrial branch in Iran, right after oil&gas sector. Given that the defence sector is the major branch in the USA, it's not Iran who is doing something wrong...

So? But, what are they hiding? If you think they hide something then you have to have reasons for that standpoint. And, if you have reasons, then you ought to have evidence.

And vice-versa: if you don't have evidence, then you can't have a reason to aledge they hide anything... That's exactly the IAEA's conclusion, you like it or not.

Have you got evidence they do that?

Obviously not. Then, they do not hide anything (at least not in Iran), they do abide to NPT, and they are put under ever increasing pressure. Nevertheless.

In their place, what would you do? Tell to the USA and Israel, "oh, you so all-mighty people, do with us whatever you like?"

Get real. You wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that. And Iranians even less so.

If the figures mean so little to the IRI, why do they address them to begin with? If education and the economy do not matter so much there, by gosh, I feel bad for the Iranian people. But, alas, if thats what they want, then by all means, go for it...

for the final time, it is not on the world to prove that Iran has nukes or is pursuing them, it is on Iran to prove that they are not! like it or not, thats how it is. if not, then they can leave the NPT and the UN and be truly shunned like North Korea.

A little bit ago you were talking about Iran being a sovereign nation and if they want to build nukes, who are we or anyone else to tell em they cant?

well that is the point of the NPT. Iran signed on, and is not abiding by it's terms. So, since they are not, the rest of the world (mostly) is conferring sanctions upon them. This is not that different than Israel placing an embargo on Gaza. Sure, Gaza can have democratic elections and do what they please with their own country, but their neighbors (Irans and Gaza's) can also do as they please.

Last edited by GeneralTsoGood; 27 May 09 at 11:20.. Reason: grammar!!!!!!!
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  #69  
Old 27 May 09, 13:59
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Originally Posted by GeneralTsoGood View Post
If the figures mean so little to the IRI, why do they address them to begin with? If education and the economy...
Who mentioned "education"? And, who says it doesn't matter to Iranians?

You or me?

Quote:
for the final time, it is not on the world to prove that Iran has nukes or is pursuing them
...sigh... You aledge (again) they have them. Israel does so, US too. Provide evidence - or shut up.

Quote:
A little bit ago you were talking about Iran being a sovereign nation and if they want to build nukes, who are we or anyone else to tell em they cant? <snip> Iran signed on, and is not abiding by it's terms.
Provide evidence that Iran is "not abiding to NPT".

Quote:
So, since they are not...
For (I think) 13th time: provide evidence that they do not abide to NPT.
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  #70  
Old 27 May 09, 21:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkyre View Post
Who mentioned "education"? And, who says it doesn't matter to Iranians?

You or me?

...sigh... You aledge (again) they have them. Israel does so, US too. Provide evidence - or shut up.

Provide evidence that Iran is "not abiding to NPT".

For (I think) 13th time: provide evidence that they do not abide to NPT.
ONCE MORE FOR THE FINAL TIME...

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Doc...gov2005-77.pdf

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8928.doc.htm

1. Finds that Iran’s many failures and breaches of its obligations to comply with its NPT Safeguards
Agreement, as detailed in GOV/2003/75, constitute non compliance in the context of Article XII.C of
the Agency’s Statute;

2. Finds also that the history of concealment of Iran’s nuclear activities referred to in the Director
General’s report, the nature of these activities, issues brought to light in the course of the Agency’s
verification of declarations made by Iran since September 2002 and the resulting absence of
confidence that Iran’s nuclear programme is exclusively for peaceful purposes have given rise to
questions that are within the competence of the Security Council, as the organ bearing the main
responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security;


Nobody claimed they HAVE nukes and i certainly never "alleged" they do, but clearly you dont know what the NPT represents, or the difference between "declared" and "undeclared" nuclear materials...

i alleged that they are in noncompliance of the NPT as declared by the IAEA, thus the sanctions brought upon them by the UN and the multitude of even more strict sanctions by the US. That is all i ever alleged, you simply have pretty sweet blinders on , sigh, roll eyes,

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Old 01 Jun 09, 16:42
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haha, crickets, crickets...
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Old 01 Jun 09, 16:54
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Originally Posted by apteryx View Post
All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...&refer=cnn.com
IF that story is true than the rabbi should be fired. He should know the story of Jonah and the Whale. (and the destruction of Nineveh)
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  #73  
Old 15 Nov 12, 23:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willowjones View Post
All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ahh, yes sampson.
the good Rabbi is obviously out to wipe out the Philistines- twenty eight centuries too late...

All hail the SA
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  #74  
Old 16 Nov 12, 12:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ahh, yes sampson.
the good Rabbi is obviously out to wipe out the Philistines- twenty eight centuries too late...

All hail the SA
Strange comment for a 'response' to a three years dead thread.
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  #75  
Old 17 Nov 12, 05:57
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Philistines

the Philistine city state Confederacy was capitaled in Gaza. It was one of ancient Isreals' implacable enemies'- & was the forerunner of the 'present concerns'.

Samson & Delilah was a warning aginst marrying into the wicked Women of the Coast Beaches - for the Israeli hill boys..
Not very effective...

Your faith was strong but you needed proof.
You saw her bathing on the roof,
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew ya.
She tied you to her kitchen chair
She broke your throne, she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

(Laird yesus me neds to git slhelczech..)

Last edited by marktwain; 17 Nov 12 at 12:05..
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