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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #16  
Old 17 Jan 09, 19:40
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post

Although he's both featured in ACG Magazine and a well established writer..
And he's on the ACG Advisory Board...
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  #17  
Old 17 Jan 09, 21:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Mann III View Post
And he's on the ACG Advisory Board...
No problem, I'll debate with anyone if I feel the subject is important enough. The war on terror, which I think we can agree includes Hamas, qualifies in this respect. The majority of members I feel support Israel in its self defence (myself included), but that should not mean we do so without regard for her actions (and any consequences of those actions), nor should it mean we become a source is misinformation (deliberately or unwittingly) on the subject under debate.

We have an obligation to be far better than our enemies in everything we do, and that includes whats writen and debated here.

Regards

Gaz
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  #18  
Old 17 Jan 09, 22:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post

No problem, I'll debate with anyone if I feel the subject is important enough.
Fine, but I don't think you should question the article being here. Question the author all you want, but ACG does a fine job by providing this stuff for us.
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  #19  
Old 17 Jan 09, 23:37
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Originally Posted by Paul Mann III View Post
Fine, but I don't think you should question the article being here. Question the author all you want, but ACG does a fine job by providing this stuff for us.
I'm not questioning its right to be here, just the validity of some of the information it contains.

Gaz
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  #20  
Old 18 Jan 09, 00:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post

I'm not questioning its right to be here...
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet

Are we to allow unreferenced, inaccurate and clearly biased articles to be posted on the website?
See what I mean? Where do you get off telling ACG not to post articles written by members of their advisory board?

Do you even read the magazine?
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  #21  
Old 18 Jan 09, 08:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Mann III View Post
Really?



See what I mean? Where do you get off telling ACG not to post articles written by members of their advisory board?

Do you even read the magazine?
I can suggest most any idea I like here as long as it doesn't break the forum rules friend.

And just because someones in a position of power or responsibility doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions or in this case, what they write.

Are we to allow unreferenced, inaccurate and clearly biased articles to be posted on the website?

... is my judgement on certain parts of both articles and i'm within my rights to say so, because its a question based on my opinion. The mods and staff at ACG are quite able to both defend themselves and to refute any criticism I may throw at them so what exactly is the problem?

If someones on the staff at the ACG they should work according to higher standards and priciples than us mere mortals, because of the influence and power they have by what they write and publish.

Regards

Gaz
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  #22  
Old 18 Jan 09, 13:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
BP...

Thanks for the reply.

With regard to the make up of the casualty lists, I have no particular axe to grind except that we at ACG stick as near to the truth as possible.

There is one point I will mention though if I may.

Above there is some question on the that over 390 children had been
killed.
and at first glance this is understandable. Yet if you care to look at the CIA figures for Gaza demographics i've posted in a thread in this forum, you'll see that almost two tears ago, virtually half the pouplation in Gaza was aged under 14. Moreover, if you look at the statistics of female reproduction, it promotes a rate of 6 children per female, though of course not every woman will have 6 children. Now given both the above statistics, its likely that the younger proportion of the population in Gaza will keep expanding in relation to the others, at least in the near future.

Now lets go with the current estimate that between 1100 and 1300 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza. Then give a generous allocation of 60% as Hamas fighters. This still leaves 480 dead civilians. Now if you class 'children' as aged 16 and under, and apply it to the demographics of the population (assuming the dead are equally divided) you get 240 dead aged under 14 and a variable number aged 15-16 to add in, so lets call that 25, This means a total of (statistically) 265 dead children.

Take this figure of 265 dead and now factor in situations like who might be more likely to be killed, through lack of knowledge about the situation, or who's more likely to panic, or even more likely to just be on the streets when the fighting starts. If you consider these factors in other areas of urban warfare, young persons are more likely to be involved than older. This means that the statistical figure of 265 dead aged under 16 is if anything too low, simply because experience and history shows children are more likely to become casualties (note the aged population in Gaza is very small).

So lets adjust (because of the above) the 50% casualties for children upto say 60%, to keep in line of the likelyhood of injury. So thats 288 aged under 14 and roughly 30 aged 15-16. This gives a figure of 318 dead aged 16 and under, and we've been very conservative in our estimates. Now compare our 318 with the Gaza sourse of 390. Then consider if the Gaza figure rates persons under 18 as children. If it does, then the statistical figure rises and, given the scenes of young persons pictured and filmed in and around the Hamas gunmen, the likelyhood of casualties also goes up. Yes I appreciate a lot of this is just theory, but then so are all the other casualty estimates.

Whats certain statistically is that taking a fair and unbiased take on the total figure, then matching it against the CIA figures, and then matching it of the likelyhood of casualties depending on age, a figure of around 320 dead children (16 and under) is reasonably accurate. Lets be honest and say that sources in Gaza may well be biased towards Hamas, but in this case their statement of 390 dead children could well be near the truth.

Does the figure now defy logic, given that well over half the population in Gaza is aged 16 and under?

Thanks and Regards

Gaz
This seams a reasonable surmise in my book. Factor in that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, and the chance that innocent civilians, i.e., children, may comprise a significant number of casualties is well within probabilities.
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  #23  
Old 18 Jan 09, 16:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post

The mods and staff at ACG are quite able to both defend themselves and to refute any criticism I may throw at them so what exactly is the problem?
The problem is that Ralph Peters deserves to be featured on the ACG website due to his connection with the ACG magazine, despite your statement abount not posting "unreferenced, inaccurate and clearly biased articles on the website."

Frankly, considering the man's career, I would call your description of his work an insult.

If he had the free time to sit around on the website and chatter, I'm sure he would address your complaints. Maybe you could get the publisher of the magazine, who is on the website to pass along your complaints?

You make it sound as if Peter's being with the magazine means some sort of "involvement" here at the website. While I'm not sure, I doubt he's even a member. Your insults to his worked may go without notice...
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  #24  
Old 20 Jan 09, 11:20
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Originally Posted by Paul Mann III View Post
If he had the free time to sit around on the website and chatter, I'm sure he would address your complaints. Maybe you could get the publisher of the magazine, who is on the website to pass along your complaints?
Thanks Paul.

Actually he did respond directly to the charge in post #9. We addressed this as soon as it was brought to our attention, followed up with Ralph, he responded with his answer. I'm sure he appreciates the attention and conversation this has generated but we aren't going to hit him up over and over to break down each number in his report. Rest assured we wouldn't allow any article on our site if we believed it was written with malicious negligence.

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  #25  
Old 20 Jan 09, 23:03
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Originally Posted by Siberian HEAT View Post
Thanks Paul.

Actually he did respond directly to the charge in post #9. We addressed this as soon as it was brought to our attention, followed up with Ralph, he responded with his answer. I'm sure he appreciates the attention and conversation this has generated but we aren't going to hit him up over and over to break down each number in his report. Rest assured we wouldn't allow any article on our site if we believed it was written with malicious negligence.

In case my reasoning or motive is unclear or in question its this. I consider both the Magazine and the Forums both worthy and important, and its because of this that we should maintain the highest of standards. Now given that whats posted in both magazine and forum are there to be both read and considered, it seems logical that if the reader has a concern over something written they should say say. They may be right or wrong in their criticism, but the point is that they both CAN criticise and they care enough TO criticise. If I didn't value Mr Peters as a commentator I wouldn't have bothered saying anything.

I've always considered the right to criticise a key element in our western societies, as is the ability to be criticised by others. Sadly both elements are very lacking in most of the near east and this makes it vital that we make use of our freedoms.

With regard to Pauls comments on my replies I can only say this.

What would it say TO Mr Peters if all he ever heard was praise for his work, and never severe analysis or criticism. How would Mr Peters judge the value of his work in this circumstance. With regard to the writing i've done in the past 35 years or so, its the harshest critics and their criticism I value most. Anyone can go with the flow and say whats expected. Mr Peters stands up and writes what he believes to be both right and true, and his work deserves nothing less that the severest analysis and possibly criticism. You Paul may not agree with my comments on Mr Peters work, and thats exactly how it should be. We should give thanks that we can freely and openly comment on whats both written and said.

Regards and thanks

Gary
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  #26  
Old 21 Jan 09, 00:10
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Understood Gary.

The main point I was trying to make was that we took your criticism seriously enough to contact Mr. Peters for clarification. If we didn't value your opinion we wouldn't have done so.

And for the record no one is above criticism (besides me) so keep firing away.

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