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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #16  
Old 08 Jan 09, 10:32
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I think we can reach an agreement here. After 60 years, I wouldn't say i'm surprised at the actions of the Palestinians. Though I no longer see them as making any sense on a practical level. This is like Georgia vs. Russia. Diplomacy is their only hope. For them to think that conflict is an option, is what the Admiral would call 'pure folly mate'. The only logic to their action is that they hope to draw more powerful countries into a larger conflict, which I find despicable (as with Georgia). I'm for any result that enlightens the Palestinians to their situation conclusively.
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  #17  
Old 08 Jan 09, 10:37
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Originally Posted by macgregr View Post
I think we can reach an agreement here. After 60 years, I wouldn't say i'm surprised at the actions of the Palestinians. Though I no longer see them as making any sense on a practical level. This is like Georgia vs. Russia. Diplomacy is their only hope. For them to think that conflict is an option, is what the Admiral would call 'pure folly mate'. The only logic to their action is that they hope to draw more powerful countries into a larger conflict, which I find despicable (as with Georgia). I'm for any result that enlightens the Palestinians to their situation conclusively.
I'm for any result that enlightens the Palestinians to their situation conclusively

To do that we have to separate them from the influence of Hamas and other extremist groups, and this can't in my opinion be achieved by Israeli force of arms.

Gaz
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  #18  
Old 08 Jan 09, 10:58
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
I'm for any result that enlightens the Palestinians to their situation conclusively

To do that we have to separate them from the influence of Hamas and other extremist groups, and this can't in my opinion be achieved by Israeli force of arms.

Gaz
My only problem then is that by default it will be determined by Palestinian force of arms. That's just not going to happen. This is terrorism, and I have no sympathy for any group that employs it. I say 'use terrorism, and the civilized world will eradicate you'. The legacy of terrorism's acceptance has to be considered. It will be the end of the world. Their use of terrorism discredits their 'cause' in my view. The Palestinian cause is no longer the issue to me. It's terrorism.
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  #19  
Old 08 Jan 09, 11:15
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My only problem then is that by default it will be determined by Palestinian force of arms. That's just not going to happen. This is terrorism, and I have no sympathy for any group that employs it. I say 'use terrorism, and the civilized world will eradicate you'. The legacy of terrorism's acceptance has to be considered. It will be the end of the world. Their use of terrorism discredits their 'cause' in my view. The Palestinian cause is no longer the issue to me. It's terrorism.
Its not as simple as that sadly. Take for example Northern Ireland. Were the majority of Catholics anti-British... certainly. Were they all in favour as terrorism to fight Britain... clearly not. Did they however give tacit or occasionally direct support to the terrorists because they had no other choice... yes. Why is simply answered. Fear for themselves and their families. Did this mean however that Britain should have treated all Catholics as terrorists?

Over to you Mac!

Regards

Gaz
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  #20  
Old 08 Jan 09, 11:18
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
Its not as simple as that sadly. Take for example Northern Ireland. Were the majority of Catholics anti-British... certainly. Were they all in favour as terrorism to fight Britain... clearly not. Did they however give tacit or occasionally direct support to the terrorists because they had no other choice... yes. Why is simply answered. Fear for themselves and their families. Did this mean however that Britain should have treated all Catholics as terrorists?

Over to you Mac!

Regards

Gaz

We tried that internment strategy in the 80's locking up all kinds of "Catholiocs". That blew up in our face and lost us god knows how many informants in the wider community.
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  #21  
Old 08 Jan 09, 11:21
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We tried that internment strategy in the 80's locking up all kinds of "Catholiocs". That blew up in our face and lost us god knows how many informants in the wider community.
Agreed...

Even 'passive' removal of suspected terrorists didn't work. In the end it was too much blood and tears that made us all see sense.

Gaz
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  #22  
Old 08 Jan 09, 11:42
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
Its not as simple as that sadly. Take for example Northern Ireland. Were the majority of Catholics anti-British... certainly. Were they all in favour as terrorism to fight Britain... clearly not. Did they however give tacit or occasionally direct support to the terrorists because they had no other choice... yes. Why is simply answered. Fear for themselves and their families. Did this mean however that Britain should have treated all Catholics as terrorists?

Over to you Mac!

Regards

Gaz
Not at all. When I do try to outline my ideas, I try to make it clear that we must make an effort to separate the martyrs from the non-martyrs continually. It's like Okinawa. We can't stop them from jumping off cliffs if that's what they want to do, but we should try.
I'm retiscent to get into the whole Ireland vs. UK thing because in my mind(perhaps not George Gallway's) the 2 conflicts are distinctly different. As well, the times are different. There is no more tolerance for terrorism in the post 9/11 world IMO. IMVHO the RUC drew the UK into a conflict they shouldn't have pursued in the first place, as they couldn't win by themselves. Like I said, this is despicable. Sometimes diplomacy is the only option.

Last edited by macgregr; 08 Jan 09 at 11:54..
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  #23  
Old 08 Jan 09, 12:51
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ahem... RUC is, at least the last time I have checked, the Royal Ulster Constabulary a fully fledged representative of the Crown, not something external...

but as you have pointed out the conflict are differents... also I would point out the Hamas aims havde nothing to do with palestianis... they want to kill people (at least a lrage chunk of their fighters thinks that way thanks to indoctrination) and the leaderhsip, uhm uhm... want to stay the Leadership. Only way for this is war and terrorism... otherwise it is only administrations and as administrator they are worse than Fatah...

until the arab world will be able to produce a class of half decent civil servant war and terrorism will be their only own way to gewt, maintain, exchange power... even without Israel we will see the same petty wars... (maybe instead of IDF trash everyone it will be the Arab Legion trashing everyone...)
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  #24  
Old 08 Jan 09, 14:04
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What Britain was trying to do, through our talks with the Arabs during and after WW1, and through (and after) the Balfour declarations, was to create a place where Jews and Arabs could live peacefully together, each with the rights ensgrined in statehood. When both sides made it crystal clear they wouldn't accept this together, partition was the only other option. This is where the UN plans became involved.

The 'potential' arms supplies mentioned were for the 'Arabs'. The Jewish forces had already been armed by the British when we worked together in defeating the Arab revolt in the middle/late 1930's. The Jewish forces then themselves revolted when we Brits made it clear that the 'Palestinian's' had rights in the land too.

The 'guilt-ridden Allies' theme doesn't apply, simply because the British concept of a Jewish 'Homeland' stemmed from the Balfour declaration following the first world war. There were no guilty allies then, just the majot powers trying to sortout the mess left with the destruction of the Turkish empire.

With all due respect MM, we Brits are the only ones who have consistantly striven for a fair and balanced solution, and not as many have suggested here... virtual genocide. Regardless of prevarication, the CIA report, plus the many others you can read in the CIA archives, clearly show that the US government, along with us Brits, knew a dominant and agressive Israeli, created by the use of force and inspite of UN plans, would cause decades of trouble.

If you still doubt my view, read up on Ben Gurions published statements, both during the era of the UN partition plan and then after the formation of Israel. He clearly states that Israels initial acceptance of the plan was a first step, after which Israel would reoccupy the whole of Palestine by force of arms, as and when the opportunity occured. This latter declaration was the specific reason the Arabs refused to agree with Partition, in that the Israeli government couldn't be trust.

All the history and facts on this are there... you just have to have the inclination to look for them.

Regards

Gaz
This is nothing but typical British hypocrisy . Oh , aren't the British wonderful, as always!! They wanted the Jews to "share" the land with the Arabs. But the Jews had to have a country that Jews controlled because of wonderful, altruistic (sarcasm) nations like the UK. The Nazis, during WWII, were willing to release Jews under their control, if any location could be found. The British government deliberately sabotaged the plan because they would rather have these Jews dead, because they might have been a bother to the British who controlled a quarter of the world. There is no nation with more blood on their hands than the British. Please spare us your sanctimonious BS.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 14:14
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Originally Posted by GKZHUKOV View Post
This is nothing but typical British hypocrisy . Oh , aren't the British wonderful, as always!! They wanted the Jews to "share" the land with the Arabs. But the Jews had to have a country that Jews controlled because of wonderful, altruistic (sarcasm) nations like the UK. The Nazis, during WWII, were willing to release Jews under their control, if any location could be found. The British government deliberately sabotaged the plan because they would rather have these Jews dead, because they might have been a bother to the British who controlled a quarter of the world. There is no nation with more blood on their hands than the British. Please spare us your sanctimonious BS.
Thank you for your anglo-phobia... it adds a lot to the debate!

Signed...

A bloody handed Brit.
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  #26  
Old 08 Jan 09, 14:17
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Originally Posted by GKZHUKOV View Post
This is nothing but typical British hypocrisy . Oh , aren't the British wonderful, as always!! They wanted the Jews to "share" the land with the Arabs. But the Jews had to have a country that Jews controlled because of wonderful, altruistic (sarcasm) nations like the UK. The Nazis, during WWII, were willing to release Jews under their control, if any location could be found. The British government deliberately sabotaged the plan because they would rather have these Jews dead, because they might have been a bother to the British who controlled a quarter of the world. There is no nation with more blood on their hands than the British. Please spare us your sanctimonious BS.
I'm fairly sure you've partly read most of these posts and then just reacted with far too much emotion. Calm yourself sir. The proposal was after the poor behaviour of the British gov't after WW1 where promises were broken; that any nation there would have to incorporate both Jew and Arab and not as as turned out. The past 60 years seemed to have more than proved them right. The CIA certainly thought so. As for hypocrisy . Welcome to foreign policy, I've never seen a realistic one that wasnt.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 14:43
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I'm for any result that enlightens the Palestinians to their situation conclusively

To do that we have to separate them from the influence of Hamas and other extremist groups, and this can't in my opinion be achieved by Israeli force of arms.

Gaz
While I agree with your statement, Israel has not the responsibility to separate the Palestinians from the influence of Hamas if they are being attacked by them except by eliminating Hamas capability.

There are neo Nazis around today but by the governments of the Western world preventing them from gaining arms and power does reduce their infuence. If the West ever elects to grant the puzzling victim status to neo Fascist groups in our respective countries that seems to apply to Hamas today, a repeat of the 1920s and 30s is not impossible.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 14:48
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The report does come up guys, here is the link.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/browse_docs.asp
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  #29  
Old 08 Jan 09, 15:05
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[QUOTE=copenhagen;1087588]I'm fairly sure you've partly read most of these posts and then just reacted with far too much emotion. Calm yourself sir. T he proposal was after the poor behaviour of the British gov't after WW1 where promises were broken; that any nation there would have to incorporate both Jew and Arab and not as as turned out. The past 60 years seemed to have more than proved them right. The CIA certainly thought so. As for hypocrisy . Welcome to foreign policy, I've never seen a realistic one that wasnt.[/QUOT

Britain is just a pathetic shell of the greatest imperialist nation in world history. It must be upsetting you no longer rule 100s of millions of captive people around the world. I know it's bizarre to seem emotional when discussing how the deaths of millions may have been avoided . You seemed to miss my point: what benefit to the Jews who just suffered the death of at least 85% of their co-religionists in Europe, would a country which couldn't be a haven for the few Jewish survivors of the holocaust. I am stating fact that the British acted like Nazis, when they used their famous navy to "capture" pathetic rust-buckets trying to find a haven for the small number of Jews not murdered by the Nazis prior to Israeli independence in 1948. The Arabs have 99 times the land that was awarded the Jews by the UN in 1948. But here are several Britishers describing the creation of a haven for the most persecuted people in the history of the world as a "mistake". The British foreign office did sabotage offers by some Nazis leaders, to allow Jews to avoid being murdered by immigrating to locations outside of Europe.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 15:54
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Well we are lot wealthier now than at the height of our imperial days. Empires tend to make you go bankrupt(as does spending every penny you've got fighting Hitler, we gave it all away and Im proud of them for that). Your nation may well unfortunately learn that lesson too so Im not too upset its gone but it does also mean we have historical relations with parts of the world that certain others do not, often shown by differences of opinion around here over policy but as you're letting your emotions get in the way of proper historical debate again you've gone and presumed again and missed the point. Our navy intercepted some German vessels with practically dead Jews on board and saved them from death if memory recalls early on in the war. We also took a lot of German/ European Jews just before the war. Much of Londons culture shows they're still here. Jews have been coming here for centuries to get out of mainland Europe so please holster your anti semitic allegations. Our Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli in the 19th century was a Jew .You also have 20 20 hindsight advantage over certain members of the British government at a time when people did not know the full extent of what was to come, a full extent that was not fully understood till 1945.Calling the British government who declared war on Nazi germany, Nazis themselves is just silliness and indicates you probably have a long standing agenda.
A file has been presented by Gaz which shows the reservations the CIA had over what might happen if the area now called Israel was not handled correctly and did not have a Pan Jewish -Arab make up. They feared long term strife, a position that was held by the British government. That fact that the Holocaust had happened does not prevent those reservations from being so. It does not suprise me in the slightest that Holocaust survivors would want to go to the "Holy Land" to leave behind the evils of the past. It also does not suprise me in the slightest that the last 60 years have been extremely difficult and troublesome.

Last edited by copenhagen; 08 Jan 09 at 16:05..
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