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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #1  
Old 08 Jan 09, 08:51
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The CIA knew we Brits were right.

Declassified CIA report dated 1949

Observations concerning Palestine and the Arab countries.

'The establishment of the State of Israel by force, with intimidation of the Arab governments by the US and USSR, with the cutting off of the British arms and ammunition (the Arabs only source of supply), with ample sources for Israel of munitions and finance, the Israeli battle victory is complete, but it has solved nothing.

If boundaries to an Israeli State, any boundaries, had been set and guaranteed by the Great Powers, peace might return to the area. On the contrary, we have actually a victorious state which is limited to no frontiers and which is determined that no narrow limits shall be set. The Near East is faced with the almost certain prospect of a profound and growing disturbance by Israel which may last for decades... ...Instead of restoring the boundaries of the province of Judea as they were in 70 A.D., the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire. Their present possessions are regarded by them as only a beachead into the Arab and Muslim World a large part of which they plan to exploit. They are not prepared to live off what the land will yield as the Arabs do... ...Alone among the Great Powers, Britain has been working on a plan to restore a balance between the forces in Palestine, but it already appears that this plan is doomed to fail. Zionist pressure in the USA, Anglophobia in Iraq and Egypt, and above all, Russia's determination to prolong chaos in the Near East and to complete the discrediting of British and American Diplomacy, combine to work against the policy of the British Government and its collaborators --King Abdulla of Trans-Jordan and the Prime Minister of Iraq, Nuri al Said...


Full report available at...

http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp

(Search for 'Observations concerning Palestine and the Arab countries')


Now the above clearly shows that in the CIA at least a dominant Israel was seen as a destabilising force for the whole area, specifically because of Israels 'expansive' inclinations. It also recognises that we Brits alone were the only ones working on a fair deal for all, one that could have brought long term peace and stability to the area. Note these two ominous comments on the Israeli victory...

the Israeli battle victory is complete,but it has solved nothing

profound and growing disturbance by Israel which may last for decades


You see, we occasionally do know what we are talking about!

Note too that many other relevant and very interesting articles about Palestine (Gaza) can be found, dated both before and after, simply by typing Palestine in the search engine box.

Regards

Gaz

Last edited by allsirgarnet; 08 Jan 09 at 09:11..
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  #2  
Old 08 Jan 09, 09:22
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I don't quite see what you are trying to say. Though you are obviously trying to use this information to prove it. Intimidation by the 'US and the USSR'...because we both were the most powerful countries in 1949?(Russia had detonated a nuke, that's intimidating I guess) It's hard to imagine these two countries doing anything in concert at that time, considering a year later we were at war in Korea. If the British cutoff military supplies, wouldn't that have been a unilateral decision?
To see problems with the existence of Israel within the Arab world did not require much thought. Zionist pressure from the millions of refugees existed in the US and Britain. Anglo-phobia was the result of years of occupation. Russia's determination to 'prolong chaos in the Near East' I suppose is another way of saying arms sales, but that's somewhat contradictory.
This CIA report, like most I've seen, must be seen as somewhat subjective. You're using it to say 'see the CIA knew the Brits were right?' I'm sorry. If being right means they saw problems with the existence of Israel I'd say you win a cookie.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:32
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I'm puzzled, ASG. Weren't you Brits the primary architects of the Palestine Mandate and responsible for the deliberate divisiveness of the territorial boundaries which gave rise to tensions and conflicts from the very beginning?

And weren't the arms supplies from Britain cut off because Israel was fighting against British forces for it's independence?

Of course Israel was going to develop into a hot spot; that is precisely why the guilt-ridden Allies put it there. They wanted to appear contrite, generous and magnanimous while trying to insure that the new Palestine (it's original designation) would not be a threat to the West. That is also one of the primary reasons Britain stationed occupation troops there.

With all due respect, ASG, you guys were part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:35
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Also anyone has bothered to check the date of the report?
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgregr View Post
I don't quite see what you are trying to say. Though you are obviously trying to use this information to prove it. Intimidation by the 'US and the USSR'...because we both were the most powerful countries in 1949?(Russia had detonated a nuke, that's intimidating I guess) It's hard to imagine these two countries doing anything in concert at that time, considering a year later we were at war in Korea. If the British cutoff military supplies, wouldn't that have been a unilateral decision?
To see problems with the existence of Israel within the Arab world did not require much thought. Zionist pressure from the millions of refugees existed in the US and Britain. Anglo-phobia was the result of years of occupation. Russia's determination to 'prolong chaos in the Near East' I suppose is another way of saying arms sales, but that's somewhat contradictory.
This CIA report, like most I've seen, must be seen as somewhat subjective. You're using it to say 'see the CIA knew the Brits were right?' I'm sorry. If being right means they saw problems with the existence of Israel I'd say you win a cookie.
Typically what i expected.

It's hard to imagine these two countries doing anything in concert

Why you are choosing (apparently) to misunderstand a clear meaning puzzles me. The were both intimidating the Arab states independantly for their own political ends.


If the British cutoff military supplies, wouldn't that have been a unilateral decision

NO. The supplies stopped because we were forced out of Palestine when our mandate ended, after which the UN took control.


To see problems with the existence of Israel within the Arab world did not require much thought.

Of course not, but the point is that they were clearly foreseen 60 years ago by the US in particular, and this apparent obvious point goes against many members positions here where the 'problem' of the Palestinians continued resistance seems strange to them.


This CIA report, like most I've seen, must be seen as somewhat subjective.

So now the CIA are subjective and not objective, and we doubt the veracity and credibility of their information and opinions?


I'd say you win a cookie.

I'm not after a damned cookie. The point of this post is to show many members who have criticised a 'balanced' approach to solving the Gaza/Palestinian question, that 60 years ago the CIA were sending reports to the President of the USA that the 'balanced' approach was likely the correct way forward.

Gary
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:37
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Also anyone has bothered to check the date of the report?
The actual report is available through the link.

Gaz
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:41
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Gary,

the report is ibnteresting, but a report written 60 years ago for an entirely different situation is in no way definitive evidence that the entire British approach is right. Also many of the point taken in the report were based on a fear that Israle could have turned east. Remember that the first supplier of IDF were the Czechs... middle east in 1948 was ocmpletely different than the one in 1967 or 73 or 2009... also it is the same CIA that was positively safe that no Egyptian offensive would have taken place in 1973...

and about Britain policy... can I say "Operation Musketeer"?
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:41
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Quote:
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Typically what i expected.
As was your response.

Never forget that you created Frankenstein, not America and not the Soviet Union. If America had created Israel, they would all be Democrats on welfare.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:44
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
The actual report is available through the link.

Gaz
It was a rethorical question... sorry too much cicero in formative years has some really bad side effects in writing...
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Old 08 Jan 09, 09:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
I'm puzzled, ASG. Weren't you Brits the primary architects of the Palestine Mandate and responsible for the deliberate divisiveness of the territorial boundaries which gave rise to tensions and conflicts from the very beginning?

And weren't the arms supplies from Britain cut off because Israel was fighting against British forces for it's independence?

Of course Israel was going to develop into a hot spot; that is precisely why the guilt-ridden Allies put it there. They wanted to appear contrite, generous and magnanimous while trying to insure that the new Palestine (it's original designation) would not be a threat to the West. That is also one of the primary reasons Britain stationed occupation troops there.

With all due respect, ASG, you guys were part of the problem, not part of the solution.
What Britain was trying to do, through our talks with the Arabs during and after WW1, and through (and after) the Balfour declarations, was to create a place where Jews and Arabs could live peacefully together, each with the rights ensgrined in statehood. When both sides made it crystal clear they wouldn't accept this together, partition was the only other option. This is where the UN plans became involved.

The 'potential' arms supplies mentioned were for the 'Arabs'. The Jewish forces had already been armed by the British when we worked together in defeating the Arab revolt in the middle/late 1930's. The Jewish forces then themselves revolted when we Brits made it clear that the 'Palestinian's' had rights in the land too.

The 'guilt-ridden Allies' theme doesn't apply, simply because the British concept of a Jewish 'Homeland' stemmed from the Balfour declaration following the first world war. There were no guilty allies then, just the majot powers trying to sortout the mess left with the destruction of the Turkish empire.

With all due respect MM, we Brits are the only ones who have consistantly striven for a fair and balanced solution, and not as many have suggested here... virtual genocide. Regardless of prevarication, the CIA report, plus the many others you can read in the CIA archives, clearly show that the US government, along with us Brits, knew a dominant and agressive Israeli, created by the use of force and inspite of UN plans, would cause decades of trouble.

If you still doubt my view, read up on Ben Gurions published statements, both during the era of the UN partition plan and then after the formation of Israel. He clearly states that Israels initial acceptance of the plan was a first step, after which Israel would reoccupy the whole of Palestine by force of arms, as and when the opportunity occured. This latter declaration was the specific reason the Arabs refused to agree with Partition, in that the Israeli government couldn't be trust.

All the history and facts on this are there... you just have to have the inclination to look for them.

Regards

Gaz
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Old 08 Jan 09, 10:01
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I understand what you're saying Gary, but this 'Anglo-phobia' mentioned also extended to the US(and perhaps affecting more than the Palestinians). This was a war between two independent factions at a time when the world was awash with weapons. The Jews had certain advantages over the Anglo-phobic Arabs. Many spoke English and had fought in the war with the allies. They 'acquired' weapons, which is to say they begged, borrowed, or stole them. Let's just suffice to say that you imply more complicity than I'm willing to acknowledge. Since we didn't see ourselves as arming the Jews, there was no imperative to balance it by arming the Arabs. CIA reports are valuable in the facts they present, but not always the conclusions drawn. The 'what ifs' are almost always subjective as they are pure conjecture. If what I'm saying is 'typically what you expected' then I think we have a certain amount of entrenchment in our positions not likely to be traversed through debate. Though I'm willing to try.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 10:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrigo View Post
Gary,

the report is ibnteresting, but a report written 60 years ago for an entirely different situation is in no way definitive evidence that the entire British approach is right. Also many of the point taken in the report were based on a fear that Israle could have turned east. Remember that the first supplier of IDF were the Czechs... middle east in 1948 was ocmpletely different than the one in 1967 or 73 or 2009... also it is the same CIA that was positively safe that no Egyptian offensive would have taken place in 1973...

and about Britain policy... can I say "Operation Musketeer"?
Arrigo...

Much of the fear the CIA had stemmed from the already published statements by members of the Israel 'proto-government', and in particular Ben Gurion. He had already stated that Israels intent was later expansion through force of arms, to encompass not only historical Judeah, but also 'greater Palestine' and possibly beyond.

One of the CIA's main points is that once the 'idea' of an Isaeli state came into being, almost perpetual war was inevitable IF, as at the time seemed likely, that state took into account only the rights and aims of the Jewish peoples. It also infers that regardless of the 'equality' already stated as enshrined in Israels declaration of independance (freedom for all races, religions etc), in practice the Jewish government and establishment were creating a 'racial' state, for the benefit of Jews alone and that because of this the 'Palestinians' would be in a state of perpetual revolt.

Regarding Operation Musketeer and other operations in Palestine, other different documents on the CIA website comment on our actions. Their general opinion is that for the most part, Britain is using the least 'damaging' or 'provocative' actions it can, in order to maintain a general peace applicable the all of Palestine. This job became harder when various Jewish 'faction's started their campaign of terror against both the British, the Palestinians and even other neutrals... Folke Bernadotte for example, A Swedish diplomat who had negotiated the release of about 31,000 prisoners from German concentration camps during World War II, and was then assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by members of the underground Zionist group Lehi while pursuing his official duties.

Regards

Gaz

Last edited by allsirgarnet; 08 Jan 09 at 10:35..
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Old 08 Jan 09, 10:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macgregr View Post
I understand what you're saying Gary, but this 'Anglo-phobia' mentioned also extended to the US(and perhaps affecting more than the Palestinians). This was a war between two independent factions at a time when the world was awash with weapons. The Jews had certain advantages over the Anglo-phobic Arabs. Many spoke English and had fought in the war with the allies. They 'acquired' weapons, which is to say they begged, borrowed, or stole them. Let's just suffice to say that you imply more complicity than I'm willing to acknowledge. Since we didn't see ourselves as arming the Jews, there was no imperative to balance it by arming the Arabs. CIA reports are valuable in the facts they present, but not always the conclusions drawn. The 'what ifs' are almost always subjective as they are pure conjecture. If what I'm saying is 'typically what you expected' then I think we have a certain amount of entrenchment in our positions not likely to be traversed through debate. Though I'm willing to try.
that you imply more complicity than I'm willing to acknowledge

Thats not my intention Mac, truly. What i'm trying to establish is that many AMERICAN MEMBERS apparent surprise at the fanaticism and recalcitrance of the Palestinians today, shouldn't be a surprise at all. The reason being that 60 years ago the US President and State Department were being warned by the CIA that the way Israel was created, and the then present and future policies of its government(s), were likely to cause a state of perpetual war in the entire region. If you consider the last 60 years history in that area, they were dead right!

Let me just add this if I may. If I occasionally appear angry with the views of other members in this issue, its because quite often they refuse to acknowledge that Israel is in any way to blame for initially and by her actions subsequently causing the present situation. History clearly shows she is equally to blame in many areas for causing the present problems, and many members (apparent) blind loyalty to Israels 'false underdog' position galls me, expecially when those same members have shown themselves to be moral, extremely well educated and above all fair when regarding other issues.

Its this 'Israeli blindspot' that puzzles me...

Regards

Gaz

Last edited by allsirgarnet; 08 Jan 09 at 10:16..
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Old 08 Jan 09, 10:15
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Much of this is the truth that dare not speak its name.

The British government during and post ww1 must take a chunk of the blame for going back on the deal to developa Palestinean state as was promised. This however does not absolve what was let lose after ww2. The bloodshed of the last 60 years is no suprise at all if one truly thinks about it.
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Old 08 Jan 09, 10:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Much of this is the truth that dare not speak its name.

The British government during and post ww1 must take a chunk of the blame for going back on the deal to developa Palestinean state as was promised. This however does not absolve what was let lose after ww2.
Very true. Initially we Brits were very pro Arab regarding the future of Palestine, but then Lord Balfour (and a few others) restored the balance. He (very simply) stated that the only viable 'state', in the form initially of a homeland, was one initially created by and for the Jewish peoples, simply because in terms of history, it was the only such state ever to have existed in the area.

However he also stated clearly, that if this Jewish homeland was to evolve into a viable and successful sovreign state, an accomodation with the then majority Arab (Palestinian) population in the area would have to be reached. This accomodation would have to include both full rights and representation for all non Jews in the area, and it would have to be seen as viable by both them and all the Arab states in the area.

What happened later after WW2 clearly shows the Arabs were right to distrust the idea of an Israeli state, simply because its creation (in effect) was that of a Jewish state, and not a 'Jewish plus everyone else' state.

Regards

Gaz
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