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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #61  
Old 05 Jan 09, 12:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
The solution is for them to understand that they can't get all the territories they want and they have to settle for less.

Theirs would not be the only state that has territorial demands or complaints. Theirs would not be the only ethnicity that was driven out of some territories. And theirs would not be the only state living under the shadow of a stronger one.

So they have to get over their high horses and figure out that they can't win against a nuclear state.
Some points to ponder.

First, the current Jewish and Muslim populations of the region (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) are:

5,435,000 Jewish
5,265,686 Muslim

Total land area is:

Gaza - 360 sq. mi.
West Bank - 5,860 sq. mi.
Israel (exl. Golan) 20,770 sq. mi.

Israel directly controls 2,270 sq. mi. of the West Bank

Therefore, of a total area of 26,990 sq. mi., Israel controls 23,040 sq. mi. or 85% of the land, even though the aggregate populations of Jewish and Muslims are almost equivalent.

Looks like the problem is not that the Palestinians should settle for less, but rather that the Israelis should settle less.
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  #62  
Old 05 Jan 09, 12:33
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Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
I am not saying that Hamas and likewise Hezbollah are innocents far from it but their land was stolen by the west predominantly USA and UK and given to a bunch of people made homelss from the concentration camps.
Hold on there cowboy, correct if I am wrong but wasn't it a British idea to hand the Palestine over to Jewish settlers? After all, Britain had control of the Palestine since it took over that little slice of heaven from the Ottoman Turks. I will agree with you that the Israeli's seem to be using a hammer to kill a mosquito again, but where were all those Arab leaders while Hamas was dumping rockets onto Israel? Where were all those silly protesters while those silly rockets were being shot off? And now we have the usual bunch of cretins expressing shock and dismay because the mean old Israelis finally decided to do something about Hamas and their stupid rockets....screw them!
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  #63  
Old 05 Jan 09, 14:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Some points to ponder.

First, the current Jewish and Muslim populations of the region (Israel, West Bank and Gaza) are:

5,435,000 Jewish
5,265,686 Muslim

Total land area is:

Gaza - 360 sq. mi.
West Bank - 5,860 sq. mi.
Israel (exl. Golan) 20,770 sq. mi.

Israel directly controls 2,270 sq. mi. of the West Bank

Therefore, of a total area of 26,990 sq. mi., Israel controls 23,040 sq. mi. or 85% of the land, even though the aggregate populations of Jewish and Muslims are almost equivalent.

Looks like the problem is not that the Palestinians should settle for less, but rather that the Israelis should settle less.
Based upon the above, it appears to me that the Palestinians need to start fornicating less as there too many of them for the amount of land they control to be able to feed them all.
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  #64  
Old 05 Jan 09, 14:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorque View Post
Based upon the above, it appears to me that the Palestinians need to start fornicating less as there too many of them for the amount of land they control to be able to feed them all.
This might have been an intelligent comment except for the fact that the main demographic problem has been Israel's continual encouragement of immigration. During the period 1989-1999, 750,000 Russian Jews immigrated into Israel.

https://www1.jafi.org.il/papers/1999/may/cnnmay30.htm

And this encouragement of further immigration continues to this day.

Quote:
Israel is offering new incentives to attract more American immigrants in response to its steadily declining Jewish majority. ...
Israel has historically depended on immigration for population growth. But the country has been unable to repeat the influx of more than 1 million Soviet Jews into Israel during the 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...igration_x.htm

In other words, some 20% of Israel's current population stems from immigration since 1989. So...how do they plan to cope with increased immigration and limited land without exacerbating conflicts with the Palestinians?
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  #65  
Old 05 Jan 09, 14:40
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They are not pulling in the numbers like they did in the 1990's, and they probably never will.
I was actually in Israel a few times during this mass migration period from Russia. The airport was full of them. There was even a row of old Russian (Jewish) WW2 vets, wearing their old uniforms and rows of medals.
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  #66  
Old 05 Jan 09, 14:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
This might have been an intelligent comment except for the fact that the main demographic problem has been Israel's continual encouragement of immigration. During the period 1989-1999, 750,000 Russian Jews immigrated into Israel.

https://www1.jafi.org.il/papers/1999/may/cnnmay30.htm

And this encouragement of further immigration continues to this day.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...igration_x.htm

In other words, some 20% of Israel's current population stems from immigration since 1989. So...how do they plan to cope with increased immigration and limited land without exacerbating conflicts with the Palestinians?
The Israeli's seem to be able to handle their added population quite well, unlike the Palestinians by growing crops for export while importing other food stuffs. More importantly the Israeli's export manufactured goods. Other than terrorism, what do the Palestinians export?

The Palestinians lost in '48 and have continued to lose every subsequent conflict with Israel. Either they learn to adapt to live with the Israeli's in peace or face a uncertain future as a people in a parcel of land unfit to the numbers involved. And considering that none of the other Arab nations are interested in providing a homeland for the Palestinians, that alone should speak volumes about the Palestinians.
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  #67  
Old 05 Jan 09, 15:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorque View Post
The Israeli's seem to be able to handle their added population quite well, unlike the Palestinians by growing crops for export while importing other food stuffs. More importantly the Israeli's export manufactured goods. Other than terrorism, what do the Palestinians export?

The Palestinians lost in '48 and have continued to lose every subsequent conflict with Israel. Either they learn to adapt to live with the Israeli's in peace or face a uncertain future as a people in a parcel of land unfit to the numbers involved. And considering that none of the other Arab nations are interested in providing a homeland for the Palestinians, that alone should speak volumes about the Palestinians.
1. Israel coped with the immigration increases by substantially increasing the number of settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza, putting them square into conflict with the Palestinian population.

2. Regardless of the fact that the Palestinians lost in '48 and subsequently, it is a violation of international law since post-World War II to forcibly annex, colonize, settle or otherwise expropriate foreign territory.

3. No one seemed very interested in taking in Jewish refugees from Germany in the 1930s also. So what is your point? No nation is required or obligated to take in refugees, even if they speak the same language or share the same religion.
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  #68  
Old 05 Jan 09, 15:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
1. Israel coped with the immigration increases by substantially increasing the number of settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza, putting them square into conflict with the Palestinian population.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe Israel is taking necessary, albeit painfully slow steps to correct this situation. Also at the time of the settlements, there was no Palestinian state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
2. Regardless of the fact that the Palestinians lost in '48 and subsequently, it is a violation of international law since post-World War II to forcibly annex, colonize, settle or otherwise expropriate foreign territory.
Tell that to the Tibetans and the South Vietnamese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
3. No one seemed very interested in taking in Jewish refugees from Germany in the 1930s also. So what is your point? No nation is required or obligated to take in refugees, even if they speak the same language or share the same religion.
The point is they refuse to integrate with the host nation, which is why no other Arab nation is willing to host them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there was limited acceptance of Jews in other nations. A further difference is the Germans Jews were forced out of Germany. I don't believe that the Palestinians are being forced out of Israel, they left for the west bank of their own free will.
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  #69  
Old 05 Jan 09, 15:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
You are mistaken. The Palestinians comprise a number of positions regarding Israel. Some extremists want the total removal of the Israeli population, as - in turn - do some Orthodox and Zionist extremists regarding the Arab population. The majority of Palestinians, however, favour various compromise solutions, the most common being the removal of all Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank and their return to Palestinian control. Some Israelis also favour this solution - however, this solution is more popular among the Palestinians than among the Israelis, since it means dismantling thousands of Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Other solutions involve partitioning the West Bank according to current population concentrations - more popular among Israelis than Palestinians, since according to the Palestinians, this solution involves legitimizing Israeli incursions on land still recognized by the UN as belonging to Palestine. Finally, some Palestinians simply do not care anymore and only wish to live in peace. Regardless, your portrayal that the removal of Israel is the only thing Palestinians want is incorrect, as is your surmise that this will be the only way the situation may be resolved.
The majority of Palestinians elected Hamas to lead them. Since Hamas has had no record of building hospitals, schools, water treatment plants, airports or port facilities, one must surmise that they elected them based on what their historical expertise has been.

A sizable minority of Palestinians might be willing to live and let live, but historically in the Palestinian territotries those people were killed as collaborators by both Fatah and Hamas.

All Palestinian sovreignty is in danger so long as they use their territory to attack their neighbor.
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  #70  
Old 05 Jan 09, 15:25
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  #71  
Old 05 Jan 09, 15:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
1. Israel coped with the immigration increases by substantially increasing the number of settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza, putting them square into conflict with the Palestinian population.

2. Regardless of the fact that the Palestinians lost in '48 and subsequently, it is a violation of international law since post-World War II to forcibly annex, colonize, settle or otherwise expropriate foreign territory.

3. No one seemed very interested in taking in Jewish refugees from Germany in the 1930s also. So what is your point? No nation is required or obligated to take in refugees, even if they speak the same language or share the same religion.
In 1948 and 1949 the Arab nations surrounding the former British mandate refused to accept the borders of Israel or a Palestinain Arab state. The territory in the West Bank which Israel occupied was being administered by Jordan. If any nation has a claim against Israel against occupation, it would seem to be the Jordanians. That kingdom seems to have wished the West bank good riddance.
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Old 05 Jan 09, 16:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorque View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe Israel is taking necessary, albeit painfully slow steps to correct this situation. Also at the time of the settlements, there was no Palestinian state.

Tell that to the Tibetans and the South Vietnamese.

The point is they refuse to integrate with the host nation, which is why no other Arab nation is willing to host them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there was limited acceptance of Jews in other nations. A further difference is the Germans Jews were forced out of Germany. I don't believe that the Palestinians are being forced out of Israel, they left for the west bank of their own free will.
This has been one of the long-standing red herrings; that because there was no 'official Palestinian state' there is no 'Palestinian people' and no 'Palestinian land'. Thus, the supposed claim that on a legal basis, the lands in question constituted a terra nullius.This was, indeed, the legal regimen prior to 1945:

Quote:
"this distribution of space among members of the world community was inspired by aggressive individualism and a laissez-faire attitude: whoever had the physical means of acquiring and effectively controlling a portion of territory on land was legitimized to claim sovereign rights over it."
Antonio Cassese, International Law,Oxford, 2005, p. 81.

However, this doctrine has been consistenly applied for the purpose of justifying the forcible seizure of land from indigenous populations due to the lack of a recognized indigenous political structure. But if this is the case, than one would have to support also the Chinese takeover of Tibet. The problem is that the concept of terra nullius conflicts with the modern internation law precept afforcing international legal status to peoples, whether or not they constitute a defined political entity - regardless of what Elihu Lauterprecht thinks. The international law provisions regarding national liberation movements specifically states that "control of territory is not their distinguishing trait...", but rather "their struggle to free themselves from colonial domination, a rascist regime, or alien occupation." (op. cit. pp. 140-141). Considering that the Israeli settlements on the West Bank - and the previous ones in Gaza - occurred after the UN formally assigned the West Bank to the Arabs living in Palestine in 1947, these provisions apply to the Palestinians.

Quote:
When the United Nations General Assembly voted in 1947 to partition Palestine into a Jewish State, an Arab State, and an internationally-administered enclave of Jerusalem, a more broad region of the modern-day West Bank was assigned to the Arab State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_bank#West_Bank

So where does that leave the legal legitimacy of Israeli settlements and territorial incursions on the West Bank...and where does that leave the rights of the Palestinians to resist this by force? According to the principle of self-determination under international law, legal right rests with the Palestinians. Further, according to Cassese, "States are duty bound to refrain from assisting a State denying self-determination to a people or a group entitled to it." (op. cit., p. 141).

I'm just being a devil's advocate here, Gorque. If it was not for a few people trying to argue the opposing side of this conflict, the debate on this forum would turn into just one virtual circle jerk.
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Old 05 Jan 09, 16:22
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Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
In 1948 and 1949 the Arab nations surrounding the former British mandate refused to accept the borders of Israel or a Palestinain Arab state. The territory in the West Bank which Israel occupied was being administered by Jordan. If any nation has a claim against Israel against occupation, it would seem to be the Jordanians. That kingdom seems to have wished the West bank good riddance.
Jordan never had a legally recognized claim to the West Bank (only the UK and Pakistan recognized it). The UN, in a vote in the General Assembly, however, did assign the West Bank territory to the Arab population living in Palestine.
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Old 05 Jan 09, 16:37
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Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
A sizable minority of Palestinians might be willing to live and let live, but historically in the Palestinian territotries those people were killed as collaborators by both Fatah and Hamas.
As did the Jewish extremists of the Stern Gang during the 1930s.

Quote:
...they also targeted Jews whom they regarded as traitors, and towards the end of the British Mandate they joined in operations with the Haganah and Irgun against Arab targets, for example Deir Yassin. According to a compilation by Nachman Ben-Yehuda, Lehi was responsible for 42 assassinations altogether, more than twice as many as those of the Irgun and Haganah combined during the same period. Of those Lehi assassinations that Ben-Yehuda classified as political, more than half the victims were Jews.
Lehi also rejected the authority of the Jewish Agency and related organizations, operating entirely on its own throughout nearly all of its existence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(g...e_organization
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Old 05 Jan 09, 17:20
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Originally Posted by Gorque View Post
The Israeli's seem to be able to handle their added population quite well, unlike the Palestinians by growing crops for export while importing other food stuffs. More importantly the Israeli's export manufactured goods. Other than terrorism, what do the Palestinians export?

The Palestinians lost in '48 and have continued to lose every subsequent conflict with Israel. Either they learn to adapt to live with the Israeli's in peace or face a uncertain future as a people in a parcel of land unfit to the numbers involved. And considering that none of the other Arab nations are interested in providing a homeland for the Palestinians, that alone should speak volumes about the Palestinians.
The Israeli's seem to be able to handle their added population quite well, unlike the Palestinians by growing crops for export while importing other food stuffs. More importantly the Israeli's export manufactured goods.

The main agricultural area in Gaza is Beit Lahiya. In normal times the farmers would have grown food for export as does Israel. However Israel (for security reasons) has imposed a ruling that only crops under 40CM high may be grown in Gaza. Since this ruling came in the farmers have had to change to more expensive to produce cash crops such as potatoes and strawberries, for which there is no natural market in Gaza itself. However the export of these crops to (mainly) the EU has also been blocked by Israel, due to its frequent and continued closure of the borders. The result of this is that very many Gaza'n farms are now derelict and the farmers families now part of the 80% on food hand outs.

As to Gaza'n exports themselves, since 2006 and the main closure of the borders to imports and exports, 95% of Gaza'n industry has permanantly shut down.


Gaz
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