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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #46  
Old 04 Jan 09, 15:47
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Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
As for enforced emigration, no country is required to take in refugees, let alone almost 5,000,000 of them.
Germany was required to do so after WWII. Millions of ethnic Germans were removed from territories in Central and Eastern Europe and shipped to Germany. A very large ethnic cleansing process perpetrated by the Allies of WWII in the name of peace (removing any further territorial demands on the part of Germany).
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  #47  
Old 04 Jan 09, 15:59
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Germany was required to do so after WWII. Millions of ethnic Germans were removed from territories in Central and Eastern Europe and shipped to Germany. A very large ethnic cleansing process perpetrated by the Allies of WWII in the name of peace (removing any further territorial demands on the part of Germany).
That's true...one of the largest forced migrations in history. But, if we are to use this as an historical example, ethnic Germans were sent to Germany....where would ethnic Palestinians be shipped....Palestine? Or shall we presume to any Arab country, since all Arabs are apparently the same?
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  #48  
Old 04 Jan 09, 16:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
That's true...one of the largest forced migrations in history. But, if we are to use this as an historical example, ethnic Germans were sent to Germany....where would ethnic Palestinians be shipped....Palestine? Or shall we presume to any Arab country, since all Arabs are apparently the same?
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  #49  
Old 04 Jan 09, 16:09
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
Playing devils advocate.

It might be argued that without the USA's economic/military aid it has recieved since its creation, Israel might not have survived at all as an independant state. If you agree then you might ask, just how long will it take for Israel to eventually stand on her own two feet, without a big brother there to hold her up?

Might it be suggested that Israel is a 'false' state along the lines of Yugoslavia, i'm not sure? What I do feel sure about is that while the view exists that the Palestinian people have been dispossessed of their homeland, its likely Israel will be in a perpetual state of war for many generations to come and that this will have dire consequences for the rest of us.

Perhaps the only way forward is through political might such as the following.

Israel should occupy (if she hasn't already) all the former Palestinian lands and then formally annex them to become part of Israel. The 'Palestinian' people within this 'new' Israel would be given a choice to be either Israeli citizens (fully equal in rights etc to everyone else) or be subject to enforced emmigration.

Thats the best solution towards long term peace I have.

Gaz
Mate;
You made some factual errors or at least shaky assumptions.l
Israel hasn't received economic and military aid from the US since 1948.
The first war Israel fought with US top line weapons was 1973. They didn't begin to get what is somewhat misleadingly referred to as economic aid until Jimmie Carter pressured them to evacuate the Sinai. The cost to Israel was several billions dollars , in addition to billions lost when they had to transfer oil fields to Egypt. The so-called "billions" in military aid received from the US on closer inspection, wasn't "aid". Israel has manufactured one of the top fighters in the world at the time in the 1980s: The Lavi. The jet was good enough that China's top jet fighter J -10 is basically a copy of the Lavi. While the US never hesitated to supply weapons including some they refused to sell to Israel, to the Saudis who of course , transferred to them the Arab countries on the front line. The hypocrites in the State Department threw a tantrum when Israel traded with China costing Israel billions of dollars in sales. Today, to answer your question "mate", Israel can be totally self sufficient now, and do without American aid right now. They just replaced the UK as the world's fourth biggest exporters of military weapons and systems. Their civilian high tech sector and economy in general is doing extremely well. Warren Buffet made his first non- US investments in Israel. Israel has developed many inovations in computer software, among many area. Is England an artificial state, since it had to subjugate much of the world, and steal their natural resources. They still, in the form of the UK , depend on Scotland Wales, Northern Ireland, and even Cornwall . You are wrong , Israel will not be in a perpetual state of war. Israel , manufacturing all it's major weapons systems , becoming the 2nd or 3rd biggerst exporter of military items, and continued growth of it non-military private sector, will not have to be a puppet of the US. Then the terrorists aka the Palestinians, will receive the harsh military response they deserve. They will come to a similar conclusion Egypt reached after the 1973 war: Israebel cannpt be defeated. Egypt and Jordan didn't sign a peace treaties out of altruism. They realized they will never defeat Israel militarily. The terrorists can with impunity talk about killing all the Jews in Israel because Israel is being restrained by the US. When they no longer have to listen to the puppet masters, they will convince the Palestinians they can never defeat Israel in a war of attrition the same way they convinced Egypt.
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  #50  
Old 04 Jan 09, 16:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
That's true...one of the largest forced migrations in history. But, if we are to use this as an historical example, ethnic Germans were sent to Germany....where would ethnic Palestinians be shipped....Palestine? Or shall we presume to any Arab country, since all Arabs are apparently the same?
There's no need to ship them anywhere.

The solution is for them to understand that they can't get all the territories they want and they have to settle for less.

Theirs would not be the only state that has territorial demands or complaints. Theirs would not be the only ethnicity that was driven out of some territories. And theirs would not be the only state living under the shadow of a stronger one.

So they have to get over their high horses and figure out that they can't win against a nuclear state.
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Old 04 Jan 09, 16:30
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Israel doesn't receive US foreign aid? Israel has been receiving about 3billion annually since the peace treaty with Egypt. The contribution was about 2.4 billion in the recent budget, all going to the military (civilian aid was reduced to almost zero).
Do I have my facts wrong?
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  #52  
Old 04 Jan 09, 17:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKZHUKOV View Post
Mate;
You made some factual errors or at least shaky assumptions.l
Israel hasn't received economic and military aid from the US since 1948.
The first war Israel fought with US top line weapons was 1973. They didn't begin to get what is somewhat misleadingly referred to as economic aid until Jimmie Carter pressured them to evacuate the Sinai. The cost to Israel was several billions dollars , in addition to billions lost when they had to transfer oil fields to Egypt. The so-called "billions" in military aid received from the US on closer inspection, wasn't "aid". Israel has manufactured one of the top fighters in the world at the time in the 1980s: The Lavi. The jet was good enough that China's top jet fighter J -10 is basically a copy of the Lavi. While the US never hesitated to supply weapons including some they refused to sell to Israel, to the Saudis who of course , transferred to them the Arab countries on the front line. The hypocrites in the State Department threw a tantrum when Israel traded with China costing Israel billions of dollars in sales. Today, to answer your question "mate", Israel can be totally self sufficient now, and do without American aid right now. They just replaced the UK as the world's fourth biggest exporters of military weapons and systems. Their civilian high tech sector and economy in general is doing extremely well. Warren Buffet made his first non- US investments in Israel. Israel has developed many inovations in computer software, among many area. Is England an artificial state, since it had to subjugate much of the world, and steal their natural resources. They still, in the form of the UK , depend on Scotland Wales, Northern Ireland, and even Cornwall . You are wrong , Israel will not be in a perpetual state of war. Israel , manufacturing all it's major weapons systems , becoming the 2nd or 3rd biggerst exporter of military items, and continued growth of it non-military private sector, will not have to be a puppet of the US. Then the terrorists aka the Palestinians, will receive the harsh military response they deserve. They will come to a similar conclusion Egypt reached after the 1973 war: Israebel cannpt be defeated. Egypt and Jordan didn't sign a peace treaties out of altruism. They realized they will never defeat Israel militarily. The terrorists can with impunity talk about killing all the Jews in Israel because Israel is being restrained by the US. When they no longer have to listen to the puppet masters, they will convince the Palestinians they can never defeat Israel in a war of attrition the same way they convinced Egypt.
The current level is well over 50 billion dollars to date.

Gaz
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  #53  
Old 04 Jan 09, 17:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
Israel doesn't receive US foreign aid? Israel has been receiving about 3billion annually since the peace treaty with Egypt. The contribution was about 2.4 billion in the recent budget, all going to the military (civilian aid was reduced to almost zero).
Do I have my facts wrong?
you are not. I have posted many times on the many benefits Israel enjoys via us foreign aid, including aid payments made in one lump sum rather than divided throughout the year like every other US foreign aid recipient nation, as well as loans that many times are given interest free.
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  #54  
Old 04 Jan 09, 17:44
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For some odd reason people want to help hamas then Israel becouse Israel is big and bad but hamas started it and hamas shouldnt be crying surrendered t ill the IDF is finish sticking a boot up their rear
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  #55  
Old 04 Jan 09, 17:47
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I have heard that the Israelis are required to use 50% of the aid money we give them to buy US weapons. Is that true?
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  #56  
Old 04 Jan 09, 19:22
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Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
Israel doesn't receive US foreign aid? Israel has been receiving about 3billion annually since the peace treaty with Egypt. The contribution was about 2.4 billion in the recent budget, all going to the military (civilian aid was reduced to almost zero).
Do I have my facts wrong?
I did not word my sentence correctly. I was addressing the statement that Israel has never existed without receiving very substantial aid from the US and thus was an "artificial state" .I meant Israel didn't receive any significant US aid from 1948 and until about the early 1970s. It didn't receive the several billion dollars per until until they signed the peace treaty with Egypt. Obviously, they have been receiving several billion dollars per year. Most of the military aid had to be spent in the US. My point is they are reaching a point where receiving this aid is harming Israel in some ways. I was also addressing the perception that Israel is handed a check from the US for several billion with no strings attached. The cancellation of the Lavi which was a major mistake, was due to pressure from the US . In hindsight, it has cost Israeli greatly. Since China's J-10 fighter is based on the Lavi, Israel has ,IMHO, lost out on additional sales in the jet fighter market. While they are very strong in exporting weapons systems such as UAVs, they are much weaker than they should be in sales of jet fighters. If the incoming US administration starts to tie F 35 or F 22 sales to suicidal concessions to Hamas and Fatah, Israel will be in a weak position. They have the expertise and must start producing a jet fighter which meets their needs, so they aren't forced to negotiate with terrorist entities whose main goal is the destruction of Israel.

Last edited by GKZHUKOV; 04 Jan 09 at 19:46..
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  #57  
Old 04 Jan 09, 20:21
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As the Islamic world appears to think it reasonable to have two holy cities which non-Moslems are forbidded to enter, surely it is only fair that the Jews be allowed the same right to decide who can enter Jerusalem.
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  #58  
Old 04 Jan 09, 21:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKZHUKOV View Post
I did not word my sentence correctly. I was addressing the statement that Israel has never existed without receiving very substantial aid from the US and thus was an "artificial state" .I meant Israel didn't receive any significant US aid from 1948 and until about the early 1970s. It didn't receive the several billion dollars per until until they signed the peace treaty with Egypt. Obviously, they have been receiving several billion dollars per year. Most of the military aid had to be spent in the US. My point is they are reaching a point where receiving this aid is harming Israel in some ways. I was also addressing the perception that Israel is handed a check from the US for several billion with no strings attached. The cancellation of the Lavi which was a major mistake, was due to pressure from the US . In hindsight, it has cost Israeli greatly. Since China's J-10 fighter is based on the Lavi, Israel has ,IMHO, lost out on additional sales in the jet fighter market. While they are very strong in exporting weapons systems such as UAVs, they are much weaker than they should be in sales of jet fighters. If the incoming US administration starts to tie F 35 or F 22 sales to suicidal concessions to Hamas and Fatah, Israel will be in a weak position. They have the expertise and must start producing a jet fighter which meets their needs, so they aren't forced to negotiate with terrorist entities whose main goal is the destruction of Israel.
I have read that the US has no plans to sell F22s to foreign nations, even to Israel. Perhaps a downgraded version might become available however...
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  #59  
Old 04 Jan 09, 21:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
I have heard that the Israelis are required to use 50% of the aid money we give them to buy US weapons. Is that true?
Israel is required to use 75% of its military aid from the U.S. to buy arms and equipment such as Caterpillar bulldozers made in the U.S. It funnels this money to more than 1,000 U.S. arms suppliers, which in turn lobby for U.S. policies that benefit them at the expense of peace in the Middle East.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/p...ticle_17.shtml
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  #60  
Old 04 Jan 09, 21:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechashef View Post
As the Islamic world appears to think it reasonable to have two holy cities which non-Moslems are forbidded to enter, surely it is only fair that the Jews be allowed the same right to decide who can enter Jerusalem.
Except Mecca and Medina are significant only to Muslims, and Jerusalem is significant to three faiths. All three should be allowed to visit, but only should own it -- and that is Israel.
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