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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #16  
Old 03 Jan 09, 12:45
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two arab nations have signed peace accords with Israel, and both nations have not worried about Israel attacking them since...
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  #17  
Old 03 Jan 09, 13:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Firstly, the mandate given to the UK after the end of the First World War required that they work toward the setting up of a Jewish homeland in Palestine so the concept of Israel as a state predates the Holocaust.

Secondly, the West Bank was created when Jordan invaded and took it by force from the UK who was changed with administering it by the League of Nations. Israel took it by force from them after Jordan invaded Israel. Who should it be given back to?
E.D.,

There are some problems with this. First, the mandate concerning Palestine was not 'given' to the UK after this First World War. Rather, Britain 'gave itself' the mandate through a series of agreements worked out with France, most notable, the Sykes-Picot Agreement in 1916, the Paris Peace Conference, the San Remo Conference and the finally the Treat of Sevres in 1920. The latter Treaty, 'negotiated' between the Allies and Ottoman Empire, established the Mandate of Palestine under Article 95:

Quote:
The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Sèvres#British_Mandate_for_Palestine

Lord Balfour, himself, explained the relationship between the Palestinian Mandate (and other Mandates) and the League of Nations (LOE) at the 18th Session of the Council of the LOE as follows:

Quote:
The mandates are not our creation. The mandates are neither made by the League, nor can they, in substance, be altered by the League. . . .
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/99818751a6a4c9c6852560690077ef61/07175de9fa2de563852568d3006e10f3!OpenDocument

Second, Britain was never 'required' to 'work toward the setting up of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.' Again, this is something the British chose to do as a result of the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which reads:

Quote:
Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour
This declaration was in discordance with a previous secret agreement the British had worked out with the Sherif of Mecca, Hussein bin Ali in 1915, which promised the latter control over Arab lands except for Syria - although the British later disputed this. Balfour, himself, later declaimed that the Balfour Declaration contradicted the Covenant of the League of Nations, the Anglo-French Agreement of 1918 and the American King-Crane Commission of 1919, all of which asserted the rights of the indigenous populations (including that of Palestine) to determine national governments of their own choosing.

Quote:
The contradiction between the letters of the Covenant [of the League of Nations] and the policy of the Allies is even more flagrant in the case of the ‘independent nation’ of Palestine than in that of the ‘independent nation‘ of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose to even go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country though the American Commission is going through the form of asking what they are.
The Four Great Powers [Britain, France, Italy and the United States] are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, and future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land. In my opinion that is right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour...ration_of_1917

The decision to promote the setting up of a Jewish State in Palestine was a policy pursued by the British for strategic reasons and raisons d'etat, it had nothing to do with any policy dictated to or made required of the British to fulfill.
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  #18  
Old 03 Jan 09, 13:29
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I knew I would get a reaction becasue I have said that a 'terrorist' state needs help.

I appreciate that Isreal has a right to live without the bombardments and so does everyone. I know that Isreal has found itself in a politically and religiously unstable area but they wanted it. They wanted that land.

What I am getting at is simple. The more Isreal attack Gaza, the longer they keep the gazzaens prisoners inthe Ghetto that is Gaza and the longer no one listens to their plight the more radicalised the Gazaens, Hamas and Hezbollah will become and this will lead to more violence. Before Isreal was given their land the Palistinians were content, but Isrela has split Palistine in half and this alone has caused hatred.

The point I was making earlier about the size of London and Isreal was a very simple thing. Isreal is many times bigger than London. Virtlually all the rockets have landed in scrub, desert places no one lives. A few have hit town and cities. If Isreal was really bothered about their people then they should not build so close to the border which in turn aggravates the Gazaens.

The more pressure you put on extremists or anyonme for that matter the more aggression, violence you create. So Isreal have created this issue all by themselves with of course the full support and backing by the USA and UK. I am British and lived in England for 44 years so I am not anti the west as you may think.
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  #19  
Old 03 Jan 09, 13:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
I knew I would get a reaction becasue I have said that a 'terrorist' state needs help.

I appreciate that Isreal has a right to live without the bombardments and so does everyone. I know that Isreal has found itself in a politically and religiously unstable area but they wanted it. They wanted that land.

What I am getting at is simple. The more Isreal attack Gaza, the longer they keep the gazzaens prisoners inthe Ghetto that is Gaza and the longer no one listens to their plight the more radicalised the Gazaens, Hamas and Hezbollah will become and this will lead to more violence. Before Isreal was given their land the Palistinians were content, but Isrela has split Palistine in half and this alone has caused hatred.

The point I was making earlier about the size of London and Isreal was a very simple thing. Isreal is many times bigger than London. Virtlually all the rockets have landed in scrub, desert places no one lives. A few have hit town and cities. If Isreal was really bothered about their people then they should not build so close to the border which in turn aggravates the Gazaens.

The more pressure you put on extremists or anyonme for that matter the more aggression, violence you create. So Isreal have created this issue all by themselves with of course the full support and backing by the USA and UK. I am British and lived in England for 44 years so I am not anti the west as you may think.
The fact that a majority of the Palestinian rockets dont hit their targets has no bearing on any argument, IMHO. you dont get off the hook simply because your aim stinks.

if your neighbor was shooting his rifle at you constantly, but he usually missed, would you just sit there and take it?
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  #20  
Old 03 Jan 09, 14:55
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Skoblin,

Agreements were certainly in place between Britain and France but the mandate did come from the League of Nations (even if it was a rubber stamping exercise). Jordan etc invaded the day after the mandate was handed over to the UN so at that stage it was a UN mandated area. The fact remains that Jordan invaded and took the West Bank of the Jordan River by force in order to further its then aggressive policy of territorial expansion.
I take your point ref the Balfour Declaration but I was refuting the assertion that the idea of Israel is a result of the Holocaust.
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  #21  
Old 03 Jan 09, 14:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Thirdly, if Hammas can get thousand of rockets into Gaza they can get food in to feed their people.
Exactly. Hamas wants nothing to do with feeding and caring for the people of the Gaza Strip. Their only concern is eliminating Israel.

The people of Gaza knew this when they elected Hamas into power... looks like they're reaping what they sowed.
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  #22  
Old 03 Jan 09, 15:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Skoblin,

Agreements were certainly in place between Britain and France but the mandate did come from the League of Nations (even if it was a rubber stamping exercise). Jordan etc invaded the day after the mandate was handed over to the UN so at that stage it was a UN mandated area. The fact remains that Jordan invaded and took the West Bank of the Jordan River by force in order to further its then aggressive policy of territorial expansion.
I take your point ref the Balfour Declaration but I was refuting the assertion that the idea of Israel is a result of the Holocaust.
E.D.,

I did not contest your statements about Jordan, nor the fact that the UN took over the existing British mandate concerning Palestine. My arguments concerned the status of the mandate in regards the League of Nations. To say that the League 'rubber-stamped' the mandate is equivalent to stating that they accepted a fait accompli established by Britain and France. Not surprising, since Britain and France were the dominant powers in the LON. The fact remains that the LON had nothing to do with the formation of the Palestinian Mandate and that the latter violated the spirit if not the word of the articles of the LON. Thus, my argument that the LON never 'charged' Britain with the responsibility of administering Palestine, but simply recognized a 'responsibility' that Britain took upon itself in pursuit of sharing the spoils of war. As regards the idea that the state of Israel was born from the ashes of the Holocaust, your point is indeed correct. The modern idea of a state of Israel stemmed for the most part from Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl in the 1890s as a response to European anti-semitism, most notably the Dreyfus Affair in France. The Holocaust merely added an element of moral urgency to the matter, but it still does not discount the fact that the British policy of promoting a Jewish state in Palestine was in stark disagreement with the ideals of self-determination of indigenous populations as the Arabs at that time constituted about 90% of the population and were naturally opposed to the idea.
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  #23  
Old 03 Jan 09, 15:42
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You are sickened? What about Black September in Jordan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

Unfortunately for the Palestinians they have decided to make life difficult for their neighbors. If I had a neighbor who thought it was fun to toss hand grenades into my back yard I would retaliate. If I had an 81mm morter I would use it to blow his home to pieces. Peace thru superior firepower. If they choose to be stupidly violent let them. If Israel chooses to bomb the #r!p out of them, so be it. There's a comprehensive history of this conflict and it wont be solved by a cease fire. They the Palestinians have to want peace, and desire it more than their hatred of Israel.

Here's the next generation coming out of there.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 17:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Firstly, the mandate given to the UK after the end of the First World War required that they work toward the setting up of a Jewish homeland in Palestine so the concept of Israel as a state predates the Holocaust.

Secondly, the West Bank was created when Jordan invaded and took it by force from the UK who was changed with administering it by the League of Nations. Israel took it by force from them after Jordan invaded Israel. Who should it be given back to?

Thirdly, if Hammas can get thousand of rockets into Gaza they can get food in to feed their people.
Very good point about the food Ed. If Hamas wanted to use it resources properly they would be looking for food and buildiing supplies and not rockets.

But then again it easier to blow stuff up than to build

Last edited by craven; 03 Jan 09 at 17:26..
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Old 03 Jan 09, 17:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
E.D.,

I did not contest your statements about Jordan, nor the fact that the UN took over the existing British mandate concerning Palestine. My arguments concerned the status of the mandate in regards the League of Nations. To say that the League 'rubber-stamped' the mandate is equivalent to stating that they accepted a fait accompli established by Britain and France. Not surprising, since Britain and France were the dominant powers in the LON. The fact remains that the LON had nothing to do with the formation of the Palestinian Mandate and that the latter violated the spirit if not the word of the articles of the LON. Thus, my argument that the LON never 'charged' Britain with the responsibility of administering Palestine, but simply recognized a 'responsibility' that Britain took upon itself in pursuit of sharing the spoils of war. As regards the idea that the state of Israel was born from the ashes of the Holocaust, your point is indeed correct. The modern idea of a state of Israel stemmed for the most part from Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl in the 1890s as a response to European anti-semitism, most notably the Dreyfus Affair in France. The Holocaust merely added an element of moral urgency to the matter, but it still does not discount the fact that the British policy of promoting a Jewish state in Palestine was in stark disagreement with the ideals of self-determination of indigenous populations as the Arabs at that time constituted about 90% of the population and were naturally opposed to the idea.
There was a significant flow of people into British administered Palestine through the 20’s and 30’s, both Jewish and Arab. There would have been more Jews there in 1948 if Britain had not limited their flow on and off through that time and stopped it all together in 1939 (Arabs were never restricted). That's why the population of the area was over 90% Arab.

From the early 20’s (can’t remember the exact year, sorry) Jews were forbidden from settling in over 80% of the British Mandate territory. Israel constitutes 6.7% of the whole Mandate territory, hardly a massive victory for the Jews at the time. The idea that there was a stable population in the area is just not the case; the whole area was in flux since the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

It should also be remembered that there was considerable Jewish settlement in what is now the West Bank during that time, and particularly around the Golan Heights, and they were all forced to abandon their homes when the Heights were ceded by the British to the French mandate of Syria in 1923.

Going back to the League of Nations mandate, the preamble to the document establishing the mandate made specific mention of the Balfour declaration so the mandate does indeed encompass Zionist aspirations.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 18:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
There was a significant flow of people into British administered Palestine through the 20’s and 30’s, both Jewish and Arab. There would have been more Jews there in 1948 if Britain had not limited their flow on and off through that time and stopped it all together in 1939 (Arabs were never restricted). That's why the population of the area was over 90% Arab.
E. D.,

According to the 1893 Ottoman Census, the Arab population in the Palestine was already 90% at that time, and therefore cannot be attributed to either an apparent British policy of limiting Jewish immigration or to one of allowing Arab immigration. The fact that by 1922, the Jewish population had risen to 11% (British Census) from 3% in 1893, and rose again to 17% in 1931 (British Census) says just the reverse - that Jewish immigration was far outstripping Arab immigration into Palestine. The fact that Britain intermittently restricted Jewish immigration was a response to growing Arab hostility to this demographic imbalance and the threat it posed to Arab dominance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
The idea that there was a stable population in the area is just not the case; the whole area was in flux since the Ottoman Empire collapsed.
I do not recall mentioning that the population was stable after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. I simply stated the fact that the Arab population at the time of the establishment of the Palestinian Mandate was around 90%, taking the figure from the last Ottoman Census. There was indeed a flux in the form of Jewish immigration - a trickle before World War I, which grew rapidly under British administration, due to implicit British support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D. Morel View Post
Going back to the League of Nations mandate, the preamble to the document establishing the mandate made specific mention of the Balfour declaration so the mandate does indeed encompass Zionist aspirations.
Except that the Balfour Declaration violated both the spirit and the letter of the Mandate system, which in turn violated the spirit and the letter of the covenant of the League of Nations. To ascribe to an international body justification for a policy pursued by one of the members of that body, while failing to take cognizance of the fact that that nation contrived to have that policy included for its own purposes and in violation of the principles of that body is to accede to political cynicism. This is one of the reasons why the United States ended up rejecting membership in the League. The calculating nature of the Mandate system was crystal clear - and it rested upon the principle of division of spoils, not the right of self-determination of indigenous populations, on which the League supposedly rested. And Britain subsequently utilized the Mandate system to pursue a policy which violated the principles of the League. To say that this was justified by the League of Nations is to place the nature of the relationship on its head. The League of Nations was made to conform to the dictates of British and French foreign policy, and was then used to justify British and French foreign policy.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 19:06
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Interesting stuff Skoblin.
What area did the 1893 census cover?
Since the British gave the Golan Heights to Syria in 1921 does the jump in the 1922 take this into account (i.e. does geography have a part to play in the jump to 11%)?

The reality of international organisations is that they have to follow the lead of their most powerful members (look at the UN Security Council and how America can steer the whole ship when it wants to).
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Old 03 Jan 09, 20:17
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Interesting stuff Skoblin.
What area did the 1893 census cover?
Since the British gave the Golan Heights to Syria in 1921 does the jump in the 1922 take this into account (i.e. does geography have a part to play in the jump to 11%)?
Regarding the Ottoman Census, it must admitted that they did not use modern statistical methods. First, it is doubtful all individuals were counted. The Bedouin population, for instance, would have been difficult to measure, thus possibly under-counting the Arab population. On the other hand, illegals and foreign citizens were also difficult to asses, thus possibly under-counting the Jewish population, since Jewish persons were not granted Ottoman citizenship. However, it would have taken a implausibly tremendous amount of under-counting of the Jewish population to bring the official number of 9,817 to anything close to the stated Arab population of 371,969 - not including possibly uncounted Bedouins.

The British census of 1922, which disclosed an Arab population of 660,641 cannot attribute the increase in the Arab population to immigration, as this number provides an effective annual increase in population of only around 1.93% - quite an acceptable rate of growth. On the other hand, the increase in the Jewish population over these same roughly 30 years (from 9,817 in 1893 to 83,790 in 1922) discloses an annual rate of increase of some 7.4% - a figure which could only have been augmented by immigration. Could some of this increase have come from the Golan? It is possible, but I have been unable to determine whether Golan was included in the 1893 census for Palestine or was included in Syria. Still, for this possible movement of Jewish residents from the Golan to Palestine to account solely for the increase in the Jewish population of Palestine in 1922 seems implausible. If we credit the Jewish population of 1893 with the same annual rate of growth as the Arab population - 1.93%, we end up with around 17,500 for the Jewish population in 1922. Where did the other roughly 65,500 come from? This would have meant there was in excess of 50,000 Jewish residents in Golan at the end of the war - at least three times the entire Jewish population of Palestine at the same time. (This excludes possible emigration, both Jewish and Arab, possible errors in the Ottoman census, and differences in the specific boundaries of Palestine as an administrative unit).

We can also take the figures of the 1931 British census, which give an Arab population of 759,700 (660,641 in 1922) and a Jewish population of 174,606 (83,790 in 1922). This shows an annual increase in the Arab population of 0.98% and an annual increase in the Jewish population of 8.50% over the period from 1922 to 1931. Clearly, it was the Jewish population of Palestine that was being fueled by immigration, not the Arab population, unless there was massive Arab emigration to balance it.
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Last edited by Skoblin; 03 Jan 09 at 20:21..
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Old 03 Jan 09, 21:21
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Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Regarding the Ottoman Census, it must admitted that they did not use modern statistical methods. First, it is doubtful all individuals were counted. The Bedouin population, for instance, would have been difficult to measure, thus possibly under-counting the Arab population. On the other hand, illegals and foreign citizens were also difficult to asses, thus possibly under-counting the Jewish population, since Jewish persons were not granted Ottoman citizenship. However, it would have taken a implausibly tremendous amount of under-counting of the Jewish population to bring the official number of 9,817 to anything close to the stated Arab population of 371,969 - not including possibly uncounted Bedouins.

The British census of 1922, which disclosed an Arab population of 660,641 cannot attribute the increase in the Arab population to immigration, as this number provides an effective annual increase in population of only around 1.93% - quite an acceptable rate of growth. On the other hand, the increase in the Jewish population over these same roughly 30 years (from 9,817 in 1893 to 83,790 in 1922) discloses an annual rate of increase of some 7.4% - a figure which could only have been augmented by immigration. Could some of this increase have come from the Golan? It is possible, but I have been unable to determine whether Golan was included in the 1893 census for Palestine or was included in Syria. Still, for this possible movement of Jewish residents from the Golan to Palestine to account solely for the increase in the Jewish population of Palestine in 1922 seems implausible. If we credit the Jewish population of 1893 with the same annual rate of growth as the Arab population - 1.93%, we end up with around 17,500 for the Jewish population in 1922. Where did the other roughly 65,500 come from? This would have meant there was in excess of 50,000 Jewish residents in Golan at the end of the war - at least three times the entire Jewish population of Palestine at the same time. (This excludes possible emigration, both Jewish and Arab, possible errors in the Ottoman census, and differences in the specific boundaries of Palestine as an administrative unit).

We can also take the figures of the 1931 British census, which give an Arab population of 759,700 (660,641 in 1922) and a Jewish population of 174,606 (83,790 in 1922). This shows an annual increase in the Arab population of 0.98% and an annual increase in the Jewish population of 8.50% over the period from 1922 to 1931. Clearly, it was the Jewish population of Palestine that was being fueled by immigration, not the Arab population, unless there was massive Arab emigration to alance it.
To follow your "logic" if someone presents estimates that indigenous people, in all provinces of Canada were the vast majority of the population, at some time in the past, indigenous Canadians are now justified in killing Canadians of European heritage, in saying they will never accept any White Canadians living in Canada, and when they try to kill white Canadians ,it isn't a big deal. However , if white Canadians take measures to protect their lives , they are war criminals.

Last edited by GKZHUKOV; 03 Jan 09 at 21:25..
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Old 03 Jan 09, 21:39
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Originally Posted by GKZHUKOV View Post
To follow your "logic" if someone presents estimates that indigenous people, in all provinces of Canada were the vast majority of the population, at some time in the past, indigenous Canadians are now justified in killing Canadians of European heritage, in saying they will never accept any White Canadians living in Canada, and when they try to kill white Canadians ,it isn't a big deal. However , if white Canadians take measures to protect their lives , they are war criminals.
To follow my logic....the majority of the Jewish population in Palestine during the British mandate period and before that came from immigration, whereas the majority of the Arab population was indigenous. It is your 'logic' that I therefore support Hamas or the killing of either Israelis or Arabs. I have never stated either. Leave your own conclusions to yourself. Do not assume mine.
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