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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #1  
Old 03 Jan 09, 08:03
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Sickening!!

I know I may well get slammed for this but I really do not care.

What is it with Isreal? Are they suffering as a result of their plight in the Second World War at the hands of the Nazi's or are they just power crazed lunatics fueled by the aggressive stance of the West towards Terrorism?

Gaza, a tiny strip of land that has a huge wall all around it and the sea ports are blockaded. Good have to come in Gaza through a controlled arrangement that takes days to complete. Why are the Palistinians being held prisoners on their own land? Why did Isreal repeatedly spread settlements closer and closer to the Palistinina border, pushing them back, stealing more land and then becasue the Gazaen people say enough is enough and shot pathetic rockets out Isreal hit back with US back F16's SMART bombs and then threaten to invade by land!

I am not saying that Hamas and likewise Hezbollah are innocents far from it but their land was stolen by the west predominantly USA and UK and given to a bunch of people made homelss from the concentration camps. My heart goes out to the survivors of the holocaust but why did they not go back to their homes (France, Germany, Russia etc etc) just as the troops did? Why did they demand the area of land they currently occupy becasue that is basically what Isreal is, a state that is 'home' to homeless Jews who realised that this might be a damn good opportunity to get some land from those pesky Arabs!

Like the USA UK has had terrorist acts and for that and all the other things I have a problem with Moslems becasue they are all painted with the same brush. However, when they are being forced into Ghettoes which is all the Gaza Strip is with its high wall, blockaded coast and constant dependency upon a nation that is intent on their destruction, to steal yet more land which they have never had a right to, I do pity them. What would the USA or UK do if a foreign power, take Russia said to the Georgian people when they attacked them "don't worry we will let you all go and live with your families in the UK" and then steal a load of land say Kent and give it all to them. How would the UK resident feel and how would they react and especialluy if they began to breed like rabbits, demand more land until the whole of the UK was squashed into Wales. At this point the Georgians would with the full backing and support of Russia wall us in and then every now and again put the UK people under a 2 week constant bombardment. Would it be wrong to fight for your land stolen by a foreign power? Would it be so wrong to hate Russia and all it stood for?

On Sky News people have likened the situation with London, saying would London put up with 600 rockets a day? How pathetic is that arguement. Isreal is many many more times the size of London and besides London has not been stolen from the UK. I am not saying Isreal does not have a right to defend itself becasue they do but so to does the Palistinian people. Is there any reason why Moslems feel the wa ythey do about the West, mainly USA and UK? They look at us and see 2 monsters, one being led by the collar by the other bigger monster USA and say, they are responsible for the troubles in the Middle East, they stole our land and gave it to our enemies and they must pay.

Gaza should stop firing rockets. Isreal should be held up in the Court of HUman Rights and be ordered to remove that wall, leave behind all the homes and settlements that they hae built outside of the original area they were given by the USA and UK. Then the USA and UK should also be hauiled through the courts of Human Rights (mainly Bush and Blair and now Brown) becasue they continue to supply a Nazi like state with weapons to systematically dismember Arab nations and become an even bigger Super power in the region. Maybe, this might go far enough to ease and stop the tensions and constant sparks of conflict and prevent thousands of deaths on both sides. However, my ultimate result personally would be for all Isrealis to be evicted from Arab land and returned to the countries that their parents came from. This I am sure would go a long long way to world peace, that is until a country looks at the USA or UK in a way that is seen as provocative. USA and UK we should all keep our stupid noses out of other countries conflicts becasue Iraq has opened a can of very very ugly worms!
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  #2  
Old 03 Jan 09, 08:18
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Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
I know I may well get slammed for this but I really do not care.
I won't "slam" you...You actually answered your own question...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rogue
What is it with Isreal?

[...]

Gaza should stop firing rockets.

[...]

If Hamas hadn't started firing rockets from Gaza, Israel would not be launching retaliatory air strikes.

The Palestinians have gotten a "raw deal" for quite a long time...Firing rockets into Israel is not the path to peace and prosperity for the Palestinian people.
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  #3  
Old 03 Jan 09, 08:25
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I think that because the Palestinians are Moslem and they will use suicide bombers is their problem. Every state nation has its fair share on loons prepared to die for the cause. But the whole world has lined up behind Isreal and said do what you like and we will support you. Isreal is the big power, everyone knows that in the region and they ought to quit being the bully, stealing land and treating Gaza as though they are some kind of caged animal. The more the Gazaens/Palistinians are treated withoiut any respect the longer the conflict and others will last until Isreal with the full backing of the USA say's, OK, enough is enough, chew on this, and lob a nuke over the wall!

They all want to calm down, look at the situation and they weill all see who is at fault and then get the global community to sit down and work things out. The Palistinians want one thing and that is the removal of Isreal. That is all they want. That is the only way this will be resolved. You cannot occupy a country, wall its citizens up, prevent them from leaving without tension building up.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 08:36
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Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
I think that because the Palestinians are Moslem and they will use suicide bombers is their problem. Every state nation has its fair share on loons prepared to die for the cause. But the whole world has lined up behind Isreal and said do what you like and we will support you. Isreal is the big power, everyone knows that in the region and they ought to quit being the bully, stealing land and treating Gaza as though they are some kind of caged animal. The more the Gazaens/Palistinians are treated withoiut any respect the longer the conflict and others will last until Isreal with the full backing of the USA say's, OK, enough is enough, chew on this, and lob a nuke over the wall!
Actually most of the "world" didn't utter a peep of crticism of Hamas when they broke the cease-fire and started firing rockets on 19 December...It was only after Israel began firing back the the outcry against Israel by most of the world began.

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Originally Posted by The_Rogue
They all want to calm down, look at the situation and they weill all see who is at fault and then get the global community to sit down and work things out. The Palistinians want one thing and that is the removal of Isreal. That is all they want. That is the only way this will be resolved. You cannot occupy a country, wall its citizens up, prevent them from leaving without tension building up.
I'm sure that Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and the terrorist-state Iran would love to "calm down" right after they've erased Israel from the map.

So long as the primary goal of Islamofascism is the "removal of Israel", the Palestinian people will know a lot more suffering than they will know peace and prosperity.

Israel is a sovereign nation. It is a social democracy. It is a civilized, peace-loving nation. It's up to the Palestinians to accept that Israel, in its current form, is not going to go away.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 08:37
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Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
The Palistinians want one thing and that is the removal of Isreal. That is all they want. That is the only way this will be resolved.
You are mistaken. The Palestinians comprise a number of positions regarding Israel. Some extremists want the total removal of the Israeli population, as - in turn - do some Orthodox and Zionist extremists regarding the Arab population. The majority of Palestinians, however, favour various compromise solutions, the most common being the removal of all Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank and their return to Palestinian control. Some Israelis also favour this solution - however, this solution is more popular among the Palestinians than among the Israelis, since it means dismantling thousands of Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Other solutions involve partitioning the West Bank according to current population concentrations - more popular among Israelis than Palestinians, since according to the Palestinians, this solution involves legitimizing Israeli incursions on land still recognized by the UN as belonging to Palestine. Finally, some Palestinians simply do not care anymore and only wish to live in peace. Regardless, your portrayal that the removal of Israel is the only thing Palestinians want is incorrect, as is your surmise that this will be the only way the situation may be resolved.
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  #6  
Old 03 Jan 09, 08:44
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In that case then, where is the problem? Surely everyone would benefit. The removal of all Jewish settlememnts would (if they had to be left) would help home the homeless Palestinians, another show of goodwill. Surely, this would help heal the scars and there would be more pressure to keep the peace which would open up trade, economy and so on.

I think another gripe for the Palestinians is that there is no way to get to the West Bank from Gaza and vice versa, this surely is another sore point that Isreal has created.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 08:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
Gaza, a tiny strip of land that has a huge wall all around it and the sea ports are blockaded. Good have to come in Gaza through a controlled arrangement that takes days to complete. Why are the Palistinians being held prisoners on their own land? Why did Isreal repeatedly spread settlements closer and closer to the Palistinina border, pushing them back, stealing more land and then becasue the Gazaen people say enough is enough and shot pathetic rockets out Isreal hit back with US back F16's SMART bombs and then threaten to invade by land!
You do know that Gaza shares a common border with Egypt correct, so part of the wall is theirs. They could easily open it up if they wanted.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 08:53
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Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
In that case then, where is the problem? Surely everyone would benefit. The removal of all Jewish settlememnts would (if they had to be left) would help home the homeless Palestinians, another show of goodwill. Surely, this would help heal the scars and there would be more pressure to keep the peace which would open up trade, economy and so on.

I think another gripe for the Palestinians is that there is no way to get to the West Bank from Gaza and vice versa, this surely is another sore point that Isreal has created.
It is extremely doubtful now that any Israeli government would be able to pass an agreement through the Knesset which would involve the dismantling of all settlements in the West Bank. Simply, the small Orthodox parties in particular, who support settlements the most, wield an enormous amount of power, due to the Israeli electoral system. Remember, Israel already lost one Prime Minister to assassination at the hands of an Israeli extremist, who was opposed to any concessions to the Arabs. Even removing the relatively small number of settlements from Gaza provoked an enormous amount of opposition. As for no way of getting from Gaza to the West Bank, this situation was initially created by the UN partition, not by Israel, the same way Versailles physically separated parts of Germany.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 09:09
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Then it is very doubtful that there can be peace there. I have no clue about the politics of the region but ethically and morally it is all very wrong.

Double Deuce - Yep I know the southern border is with Egypt but Egypt have already felt the force of the USA backed Isreali agression and probably want no more of it.

It just sickens me, the whole thing. I mean if other Arab states/nations really bothered about the plight of Gaza then why do they not try and force some release throught the UN. Why does USA always have to give the nod, give approval and the go ahead as soon as someone mentions the words terrorist and/or part of the Axis of Evil. Your enemies are always a part of this axis but does it mean that you are right? What about the plight of thousands of innocent civilians. Yes I know that extreme elements can become suicide bombers.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 10:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
Gaza, a tiny strip of land that has a huge wall all around it and the sea ports are blockaded.

Why are the Palistinians being held prisoners on their own land?

Why did Isreal repeatedly spread settlements closer and closer to the Palistinina border, pushing them back, stealing more land and then becasue the Gazaen people say enough is enough and shot pathetic rockets out Isreal hit back with US back F16's SMART bombs and then threaten to invade by land!

However, when they are being forced into Ghettoes which is all the Gaza Strip is with its high wall, blockaded coast and constant dependency upon a nation that is intent on their destruction, to steal yet more land which they have never had a right to, I do pity them.
So now Gaza is just a ghetto and the Palestinians are prisoners. Before 2005the Palestinians were under occupation and wanted to get control of this ghetto very much, but after Israel finally left it in their control the ghetto is just not enough.

Regarding the wall, it was built to stop Palestinians from infiltrating into Israel to conduct suicide attacks. It was successful so the Palestinian started focusing on rockets.

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Originally Posted by The_Rogue View Post
I am not saying that Hamas and likewise Hezbollah are innocents far from it but their land was stolen by the west predominantly USA and UK and given to a bunch of people made homelss from the concentration camps.
The Palestinians are not the only nation that feels that parts of its land was stolen by someone else. It's time for them to let it go and focus on making a state of their own since something is better than nothing. The Palestinians prefer nothing in a pointless quest to win everything. Given Israel's might and nuclear cover one would say the Palestinians are politically immature if not plain dumb. But their stance is explainable through islamism. Islamists don't care about states. The Palestinians, as staunch islamists, don't care if they don't have a state, they can pursue their warfighting endeavours from this position just as good, if not better.

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On Sky News people have likened the situation with London, saying would London put up with 600 rockets a day? How pathetic is that arguement. Isreal is many many more times the size of London
What does size have to do with anything? It's the character of the act that matters, not the size of the target or the number of casualties.

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Gaza should stop firing rockets. Isreal should be held up in the Court of HUman Rights and be ordered to remove that wall, leave behind all the homes and settlements that they hae built outside of the original area they were given by the USA and UK. Then the USA and UK should also be hauiled through the courts of Human Rights (mainly Bush and Blair and now Brown) becasue they continue to supply a Nazi like state with weapons to systematically dismember Arab nations and become an even bigger Super power in the region. Maybe, this might go far enough to ease and stop the tensions and constant sparks of conflict and prevent thousands of deaths on both sides. However, my ultimate result personally would be for all Isrealis to be evicted from Arab land and returned to the countries that their parents came from. This I am sure would go a long long way to world peace, that is until a country looks at the USA or UK in a way that is seen as provocative. USA and UK we should all keep our stupid noses out of other countries conflicts becasue Iraq has opened a can of very very ugly worms!
There are so many blatant errors and naivetes in your post that I wouldn't know where to start and even if there's any point in starting at all.

1. What Arab nations is Israel systematically dismembering?

2. Who would drag Israel, US and UK through international courts and who would order them around?

3. I see you don't reciprocate that treatment when it comes Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Syria. So your solution is basically to hand them over victory on a golden platter, with nothing for them to do or compromise upon.

4. How would uprooting Israelis from Israel do anything to world peace?
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Old 03 Jan 09, 10:16
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Palestinians and their supporters are living in a dreamworld. According to their logic WW2, or more precisely, the war to remove Hitler and Tojo, would be a war crime. Germany should get back it's 1939 borders and what about the Finns? Me being the WW2 wargamer slipped up to a couple tourists only to find this border has been radically changed, by the aggressor in this case. One side wants peace while the other wants war. There is a clear aggressor and it is the Palestinians! With every rocket attack launched at the most populated areas in hope for a lucky kill on an innocent Israeli they perpetuate this war. We don't fight Nazis anymore, nor the Japanese. But the amount of destruction the Allies had to wreck on these powers to achieve 'finality' on this conflict was nothing short of cataclysmic. An army of Lord Haw-haws drinking the terrorist koolaid will not convince me otherwise. If you feel so strong then go there and stand with your brothers. Stop living in the so-called terrorist countries you despise. I find your logic SICKENING! You kill innocent people with one hand, then raise your other hand in protest of some rights you never had. This is a war between those who choose to start conflicts, and those who choose to finish them. The methods employed will be immaterial as the ends will justify the means.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 10:46
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"Sickening"

War is a sickening affair. I've been reading about the inhumanity of this particular conflict since I was old enough to read and they'd already been at it for a generation at that point.

The moderates never seem to gain ground as there are too many extremists willing to kill those moderates who might effectively interfere with militant fantasies of total victory or perfect security neither of which is achievable in the current setting.

Hamas knew what was going to happen and essentially betrayed the very people they claim to be 'protecting' in a futile attempt to further their political agenda. There is plenty of "sickening" to go around in my view.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 10:50
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"What is it with Isreal? Are they suffering as a result of their plight in the Second World War at the hands of the Nazi's or are they just power crazed lunatics fueled by the aggressive stance of the West towards Terrorism?"

They're an advanced people living in a very unstable, poverty-stricken, violent, politically corrupt neighborhood. They're trying to live normal lives, surrounded by primitive, angry, wreckless mobs who can't get their act together, and take it out on Israel.
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Old 03 Jan 09, 11:49
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The 'Palestinians' are held as much as 'prisoners' by all the neighboring Arab countries... as by Israel. No Arab country bordering Israel allows Palestinian immigration, instead they may only live within those Arab countries as refugees. In effect, the Arab countries use the 'Palestinian' peoples as pawns against Israel by effectively forcing them to hopelessly remain between the Arab states & Israel as grain to the grindstone.

The 'Palestinian plight' is as much the result of the neighboring Arab states, as it is of the people of Israel... but then again, there would be no plight if the 'Palestinians' had chosen to become a nation in 47', or would simply make real peace with the nation of Israel & stop their insistence of always attacking Israeli civilians by terroristic means.

As an end note to my commentary, none of this excuses the assorted Israeli terrorism in the early days of Israeli pursuit of a nation - which the Israeli people eventually did accept & achieve.


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Old 03 Jan 09, 12:03
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E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400]
E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400] E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400] E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400] E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400] E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400] E.D. Morel has a spectacular aura about [400]
Firstly, the mandate given to the UK after the end of the First World War required that they work toward the setting up of a Jewish homeland in Palestine so the concept of Israel as a state predates the Holocaust.

Secondly, the West Bank was created when Jordan invaded and took it by force from the UK who was changed with administering it by the League of Nations. Israel took it by force from them after Jordan invaded Israel. Who should it be given back to?

Thirdly, if Hammas can get thousand of rockets into Gaza they can get food in to feed their people.
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