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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > Gaza Conflicts

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Gaza Conflicts Discuss the series of conflicts between Israel and Gaza militants.

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  #1  
Old 30 Dec 08, 11:55
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Understanding the nature of the Conflict.

Simply a thread dealing with both the nature of and the historical events that led up to the present problems in Gaza, specifically between the Jewish and Palestinian peoples.

To start off, I would advise members to dig deeply into the past to gain an insight into both the complexities and subtleties of the situation. As an example, heres a couple of examples with regard to terrorism.

Justifying Terrorism...

There are those who say that to kill Martin (a British sergeant) is terrorism, but to attack an army camp is guerrilla warfare and to bomb civilians is professional warfare. But I think it is the same from the moral point of view. Is it better to drop an atomic bomb on a city than to kill a handful of persons? I don’t think so. But nobody says that President Truman was a terrorist. All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets. In any case, it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. For us it was not a question of the professional honor of a soldier, it was the question of an idea, an aim that had to be achieved. We were aiming at a political goal. There are many examples of what we did to be found in the Bible — Gideon and Samson, for instance. This had an influence on our thinking. And we also learned from the history of other peoples who fought for their freedom — the Russian and Irish revolutionaries, Garibaldi and Tito.

Yitzhak Shamir


Using Terrorism...

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.

It demonstrates ... against the true terrorist who hides behind his piles of papers and the laws he has legislated.

It is not directed against people, it is directed against representatives. Therefore it is effective.

If it also shakes the Yishuv from their complacency, good and well.

He Khazit Issue 2, August 1943


(references available if required)

Please note that the examples above are not there to establish which side of the conflict I support, simply because I support neither. The are there to show that in recent history, the Jewish people themselves have resorted to exactly the same terrorist tactics the Palestinians are now, and they have justified those actions for much the same reasons.

Finally I would advert you to the British Mandate in Palestine and the life of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, both of which give clear examples of the complexities of the situation.

Regards

Gaz
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  #2  
Old 30 Dec 08, 12:45
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Gaz, I don't care much for your moral relativism nor your bogus recounting of history since your history lesson is deeply flawed. Can you list for me the number of attacks on schools, bistros, mosques and weddings the Zionists conducted against local Arabs?? How many Zionist suicide bombers blew up bus loads of civilians? The Zionists used terrorism, yes, but not the same scale, scope or with the same deadly indiscriminate nihilistic passion that Hamas does.

You could also point to the aftermath if each effort. Once Israel was created by the United Nations Israel turned its attention to self defense and self betterment -- making a viable, prosperous multi-ethnic democracy. Once the Palestinian were granted the Palestinian Authority and a great degree of autonomy they did NOT abandon war, and terrorism and have continued on a war footing instead of trying to build a prosperous future for themselves.

Further, for the last 15 years Israel has tried multiple paths to peace -- signing Oslo and creating the Palestinian Authority (funding it, giving a large degree of autonomy and even arming its police forces), and many concessions since then. In frustration it has also engaged in the standard tit-for-tat violence, stepping up campaigns, winding them down, signing MORE peace accords and multiple cease fires -- except each ceasefire has been broken by the Palestinians.

You can only have peace if BOTH sides wish it. Hamas clearly doesn't, or it wouldn't have conducted thousands of indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli towns (killing and injuring Israeli ARABS as well as Israeli Jews and Christians, btw). I hope Israel acts decisively here, but IMHO its shaping up to be another wasted Lebanon Intervention fiasco. The ground troops have yet to go in despite days of bombing -- if Israel were serious it would have blitzed the Gaza via a combined arms attack with the goal of completely dismantling Hamas. Instead its conducting an aerial seige campaign with a slow ramp up of troops, just like it did in its failed Lebanon venture in 2006. Did Olmert learn nothing from that failure??
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Old 30 Dec 08, 13:12
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Originally Posted by Gamerx View Post
Gaz, I don't care much for your moral relativism nor your bogus recounting of history since your history lesson is deeply flawed. Can you list for me the number of attacks on schools, bistros, mosques and weddings the Zionists conducted against local Arabs?? How many Zionist suicide bombers blew up bus loads of civilians? The Zionists used terrorism, yes, but not the same scale, scope or with the same deadly indiscriminate nihilistic passion that Hamas does.

You could also point to the aftermath if each effort. Once Israel was created by the United Nations Israel turned its attention to self defense and self betterment -- making a viable, prosperous multi-ethnic democracy. Once the Palestinian were granted the Palestinian Authority and a great degree of autonomy they did NOT abandon war, and terrorism and have continued on a war footing instead of trying to build a prosperous future for themselves.

Further, for the last 15 years Israel has tried multiple paths to peace -- signing Oslo and creating the Palestinian Authority (funding it, giving a large degree of autonomy and even arming its police forces), and many concessions since then. In frustration it has also engaged in the standard tit-for-tat violence, stepping up campaigns, winding them down, signing MORE peace accords and multiple cease fires -- except each ceasefire has been broken by the Palestinians.

You can only have peace if BOTH sides wish it. Hamas clearly doesn't, or it wouldn't have conducted thousands of indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli towns (killing and injuring Israeli ARABS as well as Israeli Jews and Christians, btw). I hope Israel acts decisively here, but IMHO its shaping up to be another wasted Lebanon Intervention fiasco. The ground troops have yet to go in despite days of bombing -- if Israel were serious it would have blitzed the Gaza via a combined arms attack with the goal of completely dismantling Hamas. Instead its conducting an aerial seige campaign with a slow ramp up of troops, just like it did in its failed Lebanon venture in 2006. Did Olmert learn nothing from that failure??
The Zionists used terrorism, yes, but not the same scale,

Since when did scale matter regarding acts of terror.?

As to my bogus history, are you doubting my sources or subtlely implying i'm racist, because neither is correct. The point of my post is the apparent blind loyalty both America (by its policies) and many Americans (by their statements) have to towards Israel, when a calm and dispassionate judgement suggests Israel has done (and continues to do) nothing to warrant that loyalty.

As to my position, i'm in effect anti-Palestinian and anti-Isaeli and I think the whole lot of them should be walled up and left to kill each other off. My reason for saying this is that neither side in the last 50 years has done anything that would deserve respect, loyalty or that anyone should care.

The situation is simple, regardless of what either party might officially say. Both sides claim ownership of the same lands and at present, Israel has ownership by force of arms. In this situation its naive to expect any commited or fanatical part of the Palestinian people to compromise or negotiate. Its also naive to believe that Israel desires a fair peace or one that respects the Palestinian wishes in any way whatsoever. That Israel believes it can attain peace by walling up the Palestinians shows an incredible blinkered arrogance in my opinion.

You mentioned the following...

prosperous multi-ethnic democracy

... and this is the problem, because thats not at the root of the conflict.

Race, Blood and Land

... are what matters to the Palestinians and Israelis and no amount of wishful thinking in Washington, or American minds, can alter that fact.

Regards

Gaz

Last edited by allsirgarnet; 30 Dec 08 at 13:22..
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  #4  
Old 30 Dec 08, 13:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
The Zionists used terrorism, yes, but not the same scale,

Since when did scale matter regarding acts of terror.?

As to my bogus history, are you doubting my sources or subtlely implying i'm racist, because neither is correct. The point of my post is the apparent blind loyalty both America (by its policies) and many Americans (by their statements) have to towards Israel, when a calm and dispassionate judgement suggests Israel has done (and continues to do) nothing to warrant that loyalty.

As to my position, i'm in effect anti-Palestinian and anti-Isaeli and I think the whole lot of them should be walled up and left to kill each other off. My reason for saying this is that neither side in the last 50 years has done anything that would deserve respect, loyalty or that anyone should care.

The situation is simple, regardless of what either party might officially say. Both sides claim ownership or the same lands and at present, Israel has ownership by force of arms. In this situation its naive to expect any commited or fanatical part of the Palestinian people to compromise or negotiate. Its also naive to believe that Israel desires a fair peace or one that respects the Palestinian wishes in any way whatsoever. That Israel believes it can attain peace by walling up the Palestinians shows an incredible blinkered arrogance in my opinion.

You mentioned the following...

prosperous multi-ethnic democracy

... and this is the problem, because thats not at the root of the conflict.

Race, Blood and Land

... is what matters the the Palestinians and Israelis and no amount of wishful thinking in Washington, or American minds, can alter that fact.

Regards

Gaz
Scale matters a great deal. The murder of 3000 innocent Americans on 9/11 wasn't merely terrorism - it was literally an act of war. Blowing up a bus load of children is an atrocity on a scale beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world.

The solution to the Palestinian Problem is written large in the history of the world - complete annihilation. This is a nation of rabid animals that will not stop no matter what; therefore, they need to be put down.

America did not hesitate to use nuclear weapons on the last nation that behaved as Palestine does, and the entire world remembers the bitter lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: annihilation is the final solution to unrestrained violence.
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Old 30 Dec 08, 13:33
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Scale matters a great deal. The murder of 3000 innocent Americans on 9/11 wasn't merely terrorism - it was literally an act of war. Blowing up a bus load of children is an atrocity on a scale beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world.

The solution to the Palestinian Problem is written large in the history of the world - complete annihilation. This is a nation of rabid animals that will not stop no matter what; therefore, they need to be put down.

America did not hesitate to use nuclear weapons on the last nation that behaved as Palestine does, and the entire world remembers the bitter lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: annihilation is the final solution to unrestrained violence.
beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world

Surely ANY act of terror is beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world, and it worries me a great deal that anyone should think there are shades or levels in this.

As to the complete annihilation of a nation of rabid animals using (presumably) nuclear weapons I would ask...

If this what America has come to in its politics and morality?

Gaz
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Old 30 Dec 08, 13:39
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This is a nation of rabid animals that will not stop no matter what; therefore, they need to be put down.
I only see them as human beings, as any other people on this planet ...

Regs,
Raum_Schiff.
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Old 30 Dec 08, 14:27
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"Since when did scale matter regarding acts of terror.?"

Did I excuse those actions? No. Are they different from Hamas' actions? VASTLY! Did the Israelis stop once they got their nation? Yes. Did the Palestinians? NO!

"beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world

Surely ANY act of terror is beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world, and it worries me a great deal that anyone should think there are shades or levels in this. As to the complete annihilation of a nation of rabid animals using (presumably) nuclear weapons I would ask...If this what America has come to in its politics and morality?"

Yep, here's your weak moral relativisim argument replete with the example of America's use of nuclear weapons to end WW2. Nice try. Hamas using children as human shields and firing rockets indiscriminately into towns and cities TODAY is what is relevant. Hamas CHOICE to continue a war outside of all civilized norms instead of BUILDING a future for their people is what is relevant. They continue to chose war, death, chaos and violence. They have warped and abused the Palestinian people, and should be removed from power.
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Old 30 Dec 08, 18:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamerx View Post
"Since when did scale matter regarding acts of terror.?"

Did I excuse those actions? No. Are they different from Hamas' actions? VASTLY! Did the Israelis stop once they got their nation? Yes. Did the Palestinians? NO!

"beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world

Surely ANY act of terror is beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world, and it worries me a great deal that anyone should think there are shades or levels in this. As to the complete annihilation of a nation of rabid animals using (presumably) nuclear weapons I would ask...If this what America has come to in its politics and morality?"

Yep, here's your weak moral relativisim argument replete with the example of America's use of nuclear weapons to end WW2. Nice try. Hamas using children as human shields and firing rockets indiscriminately into towns and cities TODAY is what is relevant. Hamas CHOICE to continue a war outside of all civilized norms instead of BUILDING a future for their people is what is relevant. They continue to chose war, death, chaos and violence. They have warped and abused the Palestinian people, and should be removed from power.
OK.

You stated (and this is in context) 'Did the Israelis stop once they got their nation? Yes'. Well the clear implication contained within this is that Terrorism is justified by the end result, and that it was ok to use such acts because they led to victory. This smacks to me of hypocrisy in that its ok for a nations 'allies' to have used terrorism to achieve their present state, but its not ok for anyone else to do the same.

You also criticsed me on using 'America's use of nuclear weapons to end WW2', when infact if you had read every reply you will see that it was mountainman who introduced it into the debate...

America did not hesitate to use nuclear weapons on the last nation that behaved as Palestine does, and the entire world remembers the bitter lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: annihilation is the final solution to unrestrained violence.

... and not myself.

Finally you stated...

Hamas using children as human shields and firing rockets indiscriminately into towns and cities TODAY is what is relevant. Hamas CHOICE to continue a war outside of all civilized norms instead of BUILDING a future for their people is what is relevant. They continue to chose war, death, chaos and violence. They have warped and abused the Palestinian people, and should be removed from power

... and I would reply that flattening much of the Gaza strip and accidentally killing far more innocent people than Hamas members, will do more harm than good to Israels cause in the long run. Remove Hamas from power yes of course, but do it the right way and not be just treating Gaza as a free fire zone.

Gary
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Old 31 Dec 08, 11:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
OK.

You stated (and this is in context) 'Did the Israelis stop once they got their nation? Yes'. Well the clear implication contained within this is that Terrorism is justified by the end result, and that it was ok to use such acts because they led to victory. This smacks to me of hypocrisy in that its ok for a nations 'allies' to have used terrorism to achieve their present state, but its not ok for anyone else to do the same.

You also criticsed me on using 'America's use of nuclear weapons to end WW2', when infact if you had read every reply you will see that it was mountainman who introduced it into the debate...

America did not hesitate to use nuclear weapons on the last nation that behaved as Palestine does, and the entire world remembers the bitter lessons of Hiroshima and Nagasaki: annihilation is the final solution to unrestrained violence.

... and not myself.

Finally you stated...

Hamas using children as human shields and firing rockets indiscriminately into towns and cities TODAY is what is relevant. Hamas CHOICE to continue a war outside of all civilized norms instead of BUILDING a future for their people is what is relevant. They continue to chose war, death, chaos and violence. They have warped and abused the Palestinian people, and should be removed from power

... and I would reply that flattening much of the Gaza strip and accidentally killing far more innocent people than Hamas members, will do more harm than good to Israels cause in the long run. Remove Hamas from power yes of course, but do it the right way and not be just treating Gaza as a free fire zone.

Gary
And I would reply that you cannot negotiate with a socio-pathic, mad dog political regime whose primary and sole purpose of their existance is dedicated towards the complete and total extermination of your race. Mad dogs have to be destroyed not coddled. There is no other way.

"Remove Hamas from power?" How? They were voted into power by a majority vote by the Palastinians in Gaza and I can guarentee that there won't be a second vote allowed. Dictators aren't terribly interested in the free political process once they are in power.
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Old 31 Dec 08, 12:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
Surely ANY act of terror is beyond anything addressed in any moral code anywhere in the world, and it worries me a great deal that anyone should think there are shades or levels in this.
Of course there are shades and levels to terrorism. Are you honestly saying that killing women and children isn't any worse than killing a busload of military recruits?

Yes, they're both bad. But, apparently to you, they're one and the same.
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Old 31 Dec 08, 12:49
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[QUOTE=allsirgarnet;1079951]The Zionists used terrorism, yes, but not the same scale,

Since when did scale matter regarding acts of terror.?


* Scale always matters to the victim Gaz ole pard no matter the rightness or the wrongness of the moral interpretaion.


As to my bogus history, are you doubting my sources or subtlely implying i'm racist, because neither is correct. The point of my post is the apparent blind loyalty both America (by its policies) and many Americans (by their statements) have to towards Israel, when a calm and dispassionate judgement suggests Israel has done (and continues to do) nothing to warrant that loyalty.

As to my position, i'm in effect anti-Palestinian and anti-Isaeli and I think the whole lot of them should be walled up and left to kill each other off. My reason for saying this is that neither side in the last 50 years has done anything that would deserve respect, loyalty or that anyone should care.


* Understandable reaction... if one does indeed reflect in a fairly objective manner but objectivity is a fickle and sly bitch who like justice and truth her sisters, remains in the eyes of the beholder.


The situation is simple, regardless of what either party might officially say. Both sides claim ownership of the same lands and at present, Israel has ownership by force of arms.

* No doubt as and history has been replete with aforesaid examples.


In this situation its naive to expect any commited or fanatical part of the Palestinian people to compromise or negotiate.


* Agree. That's why ultimately given the ongoing sitrep they will either ajust or be eradicated.



Its also naive to believe that Israel desires a fair peace or one that respects the Palestinian wishes in any way whatsoever.

* Agree in part; as the victor always wishes to remain independtly able to render the best for it's state...the moralty of the course is debateable.. and yet there are enough moralists in Israel who do not view a final solution as acceptable.



That Israel believes it can attain peace by walling up the Palestinians shows an incredible blinkered arrogance in my opinion.


* Agree but the politics of world reaction allow them nothing less; unless they cop the title of genocidalist in their way. Won't happen hence...wall em or shoot em.



be well ole son.


Last edited by Centrix Vigilis; 31 Dec 08 at 12:54..
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Old 31 Dec 08, 12:58
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Originally Posted by sickpup View Post
Of course there are shades and levels to terrorism. Are you honestly saying that killing women and children isn't any worse than killing a busload of military recruits?

Yes, they're both bad. But, apparently to you, they're one and the same.
You are missing the context of my reply, which was concerning numbers and not targets.

As to your own point, a terrorist act against either civilians or the military IS the same thing, for how is the life of a soldier of any less worth than that of a woman or child? What your reaction shows is clear evidence of terrorism working, in that you are responding as the terrorist desire... with emotion and fear. In this light i'll throw a question back at you...

Do you actually believe the family of a military recruit, murdered by a terrorist, feel any less grief or pain than any other family in similar circumstances?

I would answer of course not.

Gaz
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  #13  
Old 31 Dec 08, 13:25
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[QUOTE=Centrix Vigilis;1080815]
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Originally Posted by allsirgarnet View Post
The Zionists used terrorism, yes, but not the same scale,

Since when did scale matter regarding acts of terror.?


* Scale always matters to the victim Gaz ole pard no matter the rightness or the wrongness of the moral interpretaion.


As to my bogus history, are you doubting my sources or subtlely implying i'm racist, because neither is correct. The point of my post is the apparent blind loyalty both America (by its policies) and many Americans (by their statements) have to towards Israel, when a calm and dispassionate judgement suggests Israel has done (and continues to do) nothing to warrant that loyalty.

As to my position, i'm in effect anti-Palestinian and anti-Isaeli and I think the whole lot of them should be walled up and left to kill each other off. My reason for saying this is that neither side in the last 50 years has done anything that would deserve respect, loyalty or that anyone should care.


* Understandable reaction... if one does indeed reflect in a fairly objective manner but objectivity is a fickle and sly bitch who like justice and truth her sisters, remains in the eyes of the beholder.


The situation is simple, regardless of what either party might officially say. Both sides claim ownership of the same lands and at present, Israel has ownership by force of arms.

* No doubt as and history has been replete with aforesaid examples.


In this situation its naive to expect any commited or fanatical part of the Palestinian people to compromise or negotiate.


* Agree. That's why ultimately given the ongoing sitrep they will either ajust or be eradicated.



Its also naive to believe that Israel desires a fair peace or one that respects the Palestinian wishes in any way whatsoever.

* Agree in part; as the victor always wishes to remain independtly able to render the best for it's state...the moralty of the course is debateable.. and yet there are enough moralists in Israel who do not view a final solution as acceptable.



That Israel believes it can attain peace by walling up the Palestinians shows an incredible blinkered arrogance in my opinion.


* Agree but the politics of world reaction allow them nothing less; unless they cop the title of genocidalist in their way. Won't happen hence...wall em or shoot em.



be well ole son.

Good evening mate.

In the main I agree with virtually all your position except in regard to scale. In terms of how it effects people, specifically those who have lost loved ones, scale doesnt matter, for each loss is the same and it brings equal pain and suffering to them. Its only in the realm of politics that scale becomes relevant, but purely I feel in the terms of the response to the terrorism and how this is both assessed (by popular feeling in the citizens) and then dealt with (government sanctioned action).

The problem with regard to Israel is that she's trying to juggle too many things at one time. In another reply I laid out a fair response in anti-terror terms to Hamas and the terrorists, and in a reply, Imperial (i think) stated that Israel couldn't do this because the terrorist attacks were (in effect) acts or war and not insurgency. Well if this is the case, Israel has a legal right under international law to respond effectively in self defence. In this scenario, I feel she has the following options...

1. Carry on with her police actions, which attain only limited periods of peace.

2. Treat Gaza's actions as a formal declaration of war and do one of the following...

(a) Full scale invasion (without warning) with the intention of long term occupation and thus policing. Palestinians will have the option of staying or emmigrating.

(b) Full scale invasion with prior warning that Israel intends to annex Gaza formally. Any resistance will be met as if in a conventional war. Palestinians will have (for example) 48 hours to evacuate Gaza prior to the attack AND any remaining will be forcebly emmigrated as Israeli forces advince. Gaza will then be resettled by Jewish communities.

(c) Full scale invasion with prior warning that Israel intends to annex Gaza formally. Any resistance will be met as if in a conventional war. Palestinians will have (for example) 48 hours to evacuate Gaza prior to the attack, butthose who choose to remain will have to accept formal Israeli citizenship one the area is annexed. Those areas vacated will be resettled with Jewish communities, which may include Palestinian relocation if needed.

If the time (as many members state) for peaceful means are over, then Israel should follow a course that will bring (for her) a permanant solution. The fact that she continually chooses half measures suggests to me that she herslf has moral and legal qualms about her actions.

If legally its a matter of self defence she should act accordingly in conventional terms. If its a matter of anti-terrorism, she should act accordingly with well established methods. She can't in my opinion mate do both, because the methods don't mix well.

Maybe its the morality of her closet ally that has and still is holding Israel back from what she needs to do?

Over to you mate...

Regards

Gaz
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Old 31 Dec 08, 13:33
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Maybe its the morality of her closet ally that has and still is holding Israel back from what she needs to do?

perhaps it is indeed GAz and if not entirely, it's no doubt coupled with a realistic and historical appreciation of politics, history, and the inate desire for self-survial.

best
CV
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Old 31 Dec 08, 13:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centrix Vigilis View Post
Maybe its the morality of her closet ally that has and still is holding Israel back from what she needs to do?

perhaps it is indeed GAz and if not entirely, it's no doubt coupled with a realistic and historical appreciation of politics, history, and the inate desire for self-survial.

best
CV
Your answer has got me thinking and I have another question or two for anyone to answer...

How far will President Obama go, or be allowed to go, in his support for Israel?

How far do YOU think the USA should go in its support for Israel, either politically, economically or militarily?

IF Israel formally annexed Gaza and expelled the Palestians who the refused Israeli citizenship, would you, or should the US government support this action?

Should the USA formally state it will fully support Israel with regard to any act of self defence she Israel might take, and with regard to Israel defining that act of self defence?

Regards

Gaz
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