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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #61  
Old 09 Dec 08, 16:43
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Rightful owners? What is your logic with that? How long do a country need to control a area before it is the rightful owner?
Should Germany have all it had 1943 now? Or what Russia had in 1800?
What the mongols had... I donīt remember when...
Russia has actually signed a number of treaties to address this. Including treaties where Russia promised to respect Georgian sovereignty. Since after WWI the rules of the game have supposedly been that no border changes are allowed as a result of military action - there's a slight conflict there with the right of self-determination of nations, but that doesn't kick in here, because this was not a self-determination issue.
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  #62  
Old 09 Dec 08, 16:49
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
The declaration of independence was not made because of the death of the Czar. The declaration of independence was made because Finland could. Soviet Russia did not agree at that time that everyone could establish their own independence. In stead Soviet Russia attacked everyone who did and in most cases managed to squash the liberation movement.

In Finland the Soviets bet on local reds to win the day for Soviet Russia. They lost.

I agree in principle on what you say on who started the war in Georgia and Russian attempts to grab land (which is oh so 19th century).
I got my information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland...f_independence


Revolution in Russia

The February Revolution, 1917, and even more so Lenin's Bolshevist October Revolution, had ignited hopes also in the Grand Duchy of Finland. After abdication of Tsar Nicholas II on 15 March 1917, the personal union between Russia and Finland lost its legal base – at least according to the view in Helsinki.
On 5 November, the Parliament had consequently declared itself to be "the possessor of supreme State power" in Finland, based on Finland's Constitution, and more precisely on §38 in the old Instrument of Government of 1772, which had been enacted by the Estates after Gustav III's bloodless coup.
On November 15, 1917, the Bolsheviks declared a general right of self-determination, including the right of complete secession, "for the Peoples of Russia". On the same day the Finnish Parliament issued a declaration by which it assumed, pro tempore, all powers of the Sovereign in Finland.

Perhaps this is wrong information ?
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  #63  
Old 09 Dec 08, 16:54
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Russia has actually signed a number of treaties to address this. Including treaties where Russia promised to respect Georgian sovereignty. Since after WWI the rules of the game have supposedly been that no border changes are allowed as a result of military action
Good point, however this got a few other things attached to it, S Ossetia and Abkazhia is not Russia , so it escapes from the bag. Now Russia (claims) to have , in order to furfill itīs duty as a peacekeeper(no more joke about that, they are getting old!) intervine with Georgian soverignty.

I know it isnīt really your area and might be a bad example but: You are not allowed to use violence, but if you are attaked, that law is overruled and you are allowed to use violence to that degree that your oponent donīt pose any further threat to you.

Quote:
- there's a slight conflict there with the right of self-determination of nations, but that doesn't kick in here, because this was not a self-determination issue.
I donīt follow you here, who do you mean by "because this was not a self-determination issue"?
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  #64  
Old 09 Dec 08, 16:58
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
And this "punches" ware? and why did they not do like Gandhi? Did they found it better to start a war they could not possibly win alone?...
I don't believe in Gandhi's policy of non violence -- I believe in taking a very large hammer to kill a fly -- that way it never comes and buzzes around me again

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
How would you plan to have done that?
To my way of thinking -- had I been in charge - I would have viewed Russia's invasion of Georgia as a major act of war. There would have been no end to the fighting till every Russian was dead - even if it meant every single male citizen of Georgia taking to the hills with their rifles and shotguns - fighting till they were all gone -- every last despicable one of them.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Oh Russia Russia Russia, You constantly mix it with the USSR, and Stalin, a Georgian by the way. ...
As long as Russia continues to act like the USSR that they once were -- they are the same in the mind of must people.

They occupy the same territory -- they have the same mind set in their leadership - they think they are a world power which they are not except for their nuclear capability - they think they are a strong economy which they are not because everything is based on the price of oil -- yet they continue to posture as if they are very important - which they are not yet but have the potential to become if they will just stop acting like they belong in the 19th century instead of the 21st.
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  #65  
Old 09 Dec 08, 17:05
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
S Ossetia and Abkazhia is not Russia
I'd say they are. Under international law you can recognise a state by four indicators:

1. It has territory (SO and Abkhazia qualify)
2. It must have a population (SO and Abkhazia are now populated by Russian citizens and are thus disqualified)
3. It must have a government (SO and Abkhazia do not have independent governments - their governments are appointed by Russia - thus again disqualified)
4. It must have recognition as state of other states (they got 2 recognitions of which 1 is Russia. We could start talking seriously about this after they have 20-30 recognitions.

In my legal opinion SO and Abkhazia are currently Georgian territories occupied by Russia. By continuing the occupation Russia is in breach of its international obligations.

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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
I know it isnīt really your area and might be a bad example but: You are not allowed to use violence, but if you are attaked, that law is overruled and you are allowed to use violence to that degree that your oponent donīt pose any further threat to you.
Yes, this is what Georgia claims it did - and they have a valid point.


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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
I donīt follow you here, who do you mean by "because this was not a self-determination issue"?
There is a poorly defined and understood idea that nations as collectives have a right of self-determination. It is sometimes implied that this makes a war of liberation by a nation legit. If SO and Abkhazia were about Abkhaz and Ossets then this issue might merit discussion, but this is not the case.
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  #66  
Old 09 Dec 08, 17:10
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
Good point, however this got a few other things attached to it, S Ossetia and Abkazhia is not Russia , so it escapes from the bag. Now Russia (claims) to have , in order to furfill itīs duty as a peacekeeper(no more joke about that, they are getting old!) intervine with Georgian soverignty.

I know it isnīt really your area and might be a bad example but: You are not allowed to use violence, but if you are attaked, that law is overruled and you are allowed to use violence to that degree that your oponent donīt pose any further threat to you.



I donīt follow you here, who do you mean by "because this was not a self-determination issue"?
Erkki -- just because the ""jokes" about Russian peacekeepers are getting old - doesn't make them peacekeepers -- you know that and so do most others here -- so why defend what is indefensible?

They marched into Georgia -- set up road blocks -- blockaded ports - sank Georgian ships that weren't even in the fight -- stopped UN Humanitarian Aid - stood by and watched while So. Ossetian paramilitaries abused Georgians and robbed them of all they owned -- what kind of people do that sort of thing ??? Barbarians do -- that's who - Russia hasn't progressed much from the time they sent their second tier troops into occupied Germany -- no character and principals were evident during the occupation that the Russians continued to say wasn't occurring all during the time they were actually doing it.

That's the problem -- when the USA makes a blunder - or does stupid things like the Iraq prison incident - we admit it and take responsibility -- Russia tries to deny that they are doing anything wrong - even when the entire world is watching -- they still deny -- I find that disgusting and reprehensible.
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  #67  
Old 09 Dec 08, 17:11
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Kaiser Franz, communists made many declarations. The intent of this declaration was that everybody was free to declare themselves sovereign and then join the Soviets. Likewise the USSR constitution actually had a provision which allowed the "republics" to secede.

The practice was of course very different. Soviet Russia attacked every nation trying to secede from Russian empire either directly or by proxy. In Finland it was by proxy - the Finnish reds got substantial materiel support and limited support in men. Due to the civil war the Soviets could do no more.

Soviets were beaten in Estland, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. Soviets regained control of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus and a number of other smaller nations which tried to act on the declaration.
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
I don't believe in Gandhi's policy of non violence -- I believe in taking a very large hammer to kill a fly -- that way it never comes and buzzes around me again
And if you just have a small stick and the fly (or bear) is 2 meters tall? Hit it and you just **** it off and get smacked youreslf.



Quote:
To my way of thinking -- had I been in charge - I would have viewed Russia's invasion of Georgia as a major act of war. There would have been no end to the fighting till every Russian was dead
What you are speaking of is Genocide. 150 million people dead, beats both capitalism and communism.

Quote:
- even if it meant every single male citizen of Georgia taking to the hills with their rifles and shotguns - fighting till they were all gone -- every last despicable one of them.
So you say that all the Georgians would have been able to do that ageist a enemy that has the size of an army like Russia has? and add to that unconventional weapons...




Quote:
As long as Russia continues to act like the USSR that they once were -- they are the same in the mind of must people.
Act in a way like the USSR... Well surtenly Russia is trying to spread communism and support "revulutions" of all kinds around the world, I

Quote:
They occupy the same territory -- they have the same mind set in their leadership - they think they are a world power which they are not except for their nuclear capability
Depending on which USSR leader you are refering too.

"The democratic choice Russian people made in the early 90's is final."
Vladimir Putin

Quote:
-- yet they continue to posture as if they are very important - which they are not yet but have the potential to become if they will just stop acting like they belong in the 19th century instead of the 21st.
They are important, otherwise, why would this infowar be?
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  #69  
Old 09 Dec 08, 17:19
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Thanks for the clarification

For me - anything that pushes Russia back to it's own historic borders - and keeps it there is a good thing.

The world hates an aggressive bully and has never forgotten Buda Pest of 1956 and Prague of 1968 or the unwarranted occupation of the other "liberated" countries following WW2 -- If Russia is a "Liberator" by any interpretation of the word, then I am the King of England <sigh>
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:21
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz View Post

The world hates an aggressive bully and has never forgotten Buda Pest of 1956 and Prague of 1968 or the unwarranted occupation of the other "liberated" countries following WW2 -- If Russia is a "Liberator" by any interpretation of the word, then I am the King of England <sigh>
USSR!
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:29
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Erkki -- I thought better of you -- don't take part of what I said and turn it into something that it isn't !! I said "There would have been no end to the fighting till every Russian was dead - even if it meant every single male citizen of Georgia taking to the hills with their rifles and shotguns - fighting till they were all gone -- every last despicable one of them."

That doesn't mean invade Russia and kill Russian Civilians -- that means get rid of the invading Russian Army -- drive them back to their borders -- fight them till they are gone -- from Georgia -- I'm not into genocide

Russia isn't trying to spread communism the way they once did -- but their tactic of intimidation of their neighbors is still very much in evidence -- don't you see that ???

And which leader of the USSR was of good character - in your opinion ?? any other than Gorby ??


And your last statement -- they are involved in an info war as you call it because they WANT to be important -- and are DEMANDING Respect - rather than trying to earn Respect. -- Respect must be earned -- it can not be demanded -- FEAR, on the other hand - is a different story - and that's what Russia's neighbors are experiencing right now.
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:33
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Remember -- the world would like nothing better than to be able to Respect and Admire Russia -- but first - there must be something to respect and admire .
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:49
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Russia is filled with opportunity. It would be super, if it had a decent government and didn't bully around. A little bit of government in sunshine and rule of law and everybody (including ordinary Russians, but excepting Putin and his gang) would benefit.
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:54
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Russia is filled with opportunity. It would be super, if it had a decent government and didn't bully around. A little bit of government in sunshine and rule of law and everybody (including ordinary Russians, but excepting Putin and his gang) would benefit.

That's exactly the point I have been trying, rather clumsily, to make !!

We all want world peace - we all want prosperity for everyone - and not at the expense of others -- we'd like for all people to succeed and be happy. Russia just needs to realize that and not be so paranoid.

Good Post
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Old 09 Dec 08, 17:55
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Thanks for the clarification

For me - anything that pushes Russia back to it's own historic borders - and keeps it there is a good thing.
Historic borders? Are you sure? What period are we talking about?

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Remember -- the world would like nothing better than to be able to Respect and Admire Russia -- but first - there must be something to respect and admire .
LOL! Sorry, I doub't Russia will produce anything to supercede the talent and wonder it has already given the world. Another Pushkin? Tolstoy? A second St. Petersburg? Doubtful. Not for a few hundred years at least.

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