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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #46  
Old 09 Dec 08, 07:01
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Originally Posted by Debray67 View Post
I'm not a Russia expert, but on one level I support any independence movement on the part of once-enslaved nations under the USSR. On another level, however, I don't want to see radical Islamic nations make any progress toward independence (I know Georgia is a predominantly Christian society). I generally support the Georgia struggle for liberation, and feel America should do so, as well.
So you stand for self-determination of nations and independence? Great! You must be supporting S.Ossetia's struggle for liberation, then. A minority once enslaved within Georgia.

Meanwhile, Georgia is an independent country since 1991 and has nothing to be liberated from.
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  #47  
Old 09 Dec 08, 07:11
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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
So you stand for self-determination of nations and independence? Great! You must be supporting S.Ossetia's struggle for liberation, then. A minority once enslaved within Georgia.

Meanwhile, Georgia is an independent country since 1991 and has nothing to be liberated from.
We all know that there is no S.Ossetia's struggle for liberation. The present day Moscow-backed S. Osetian "government" granted citizenship of the RF to Ossetian inhabitants and thus it is clear that it is impossible to speak about any S.Ossetian independence.

Last edited by Shamil; 09 Dec 08 at 07:20..
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  #48  
Old 09 Dec 08, 08:25
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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
So you stand for self-determination of nations and independence? Great! You must be supporting S.Ossetia's struggle for liberation, then. A minority once enslaved within Georgia.

Meanwhile, Georgia is an independent country since 1991 and has nothing to be liberated from.
There is a significant difference between a "Nation" having the right to self determination and a region that is part of a Nation having the right to secede. Please remember that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia and have been since the 1920's - they do not qualify as "Nations" but are, in fact, a part of Georgia, like it or not.

Meanwhile, Georgia, a tiny little country, while trying to put down an insurrection within its own territory, was invaded and nearly destroyed by Russia, the Giant Bear to the north.

Try to look at things from the international perspective from time to time rather than through the rose colored glasses issued to everyone in Russia by Putin and Medvedev. There is a reason that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have only been recognized as independent countries by Russia and Nicaragua out of all the rest of the Nations in this world -- It takes no genius to realize that Russia is not complying with international law here.
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Old 09 Dec 08, 11:30
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Originally Posted by Shamil View Post
We all know that there is no S.Ossetia's struggle for liberation.
Are you sane? S.Ossetia functioned for 16 years as de-facto independent (and was not part of Georgia before Stalin gave it over in 1930ies). They fought Georgian army off in 1992. Was it because they wanted to be together with Georgia?
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  #50  
Old 09 Dec 08, 11:46
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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
Are you sane? S.Ossetia functioned for 16 years as de-facto independent (and was not part of Georgia before Stalin gave it over in 1930ies).


They fought Georgian army off in 1992. Was it because they wanted to be together with Georgia?
S. Osetia's pro-Kremlin regime was militarily backed by Russians and Russian troops participated in the war against Georgians while Georgia did not have any regular army in 1992 and was plunged into the interior civil war for the contol over Tbilisi.

S.Ossetia functioned only due to being de-facto intergrated into the Russian federation since the early 1990s.

It is interesting to learn who holds top government posts in "independent" S Ossetia:

Anatolij Baranow - Shef S.Osetian KGB, former Director of the Russian Federal Security (FSB) in Mordowia,
Michail Mindzajev - S.Osetian Minister of Internal Affairs, former Minister of Internal Affairs in North Osetia,
Wasilij Luniev - SO Defence Minister, former military commisar of the Perm Oblast in Russia,
Anatolij Barankiewicz - Shef of the SO Security Council, former vice military comissar in Stawropol Oblast in Russia,
Jurij Morozow - SO prime minister, Russian too.


As you see there are few Osetians in the key posts in the S. Osetian government. All the top military/police related posts are held by the Russian officers that came from Russia.

Last edited by Shamil; 09 Dec 08 at 12:15..
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Old 09 Dec 08, 12:04
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There is a significant difference between a "Nation" having the right to self determination and a region that is part of a Nation having the right to secede. Please remember that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia and have been since the 1920's - they do not qualify as "Nations" but are, in fact, a part of Georgia, like it or not.
You state there is a difference. Please strictly define both objects ("a Nation", "a region") and explain what differentiates them. Explain what different rights they have, and how you'd enforce your differentiation. What if someone disagrees with your arguments?

There are 300 countries on the Earth, thousands of peoples and dozens of conflicts, frozen or hot. Are you claiming you have a solution for all of them?

Quote:
Meanwhile, Georgia, a tiny little country, while trying to put down an insurrection within its own territory, was invaded and nearly destroyed by Russia, the Giant Bear to the north.

Try to look at things from the international perspective from time to time rather than through the rose colored glasses issued to everyone in Russia by Putin and Medvedev.
My friend, first you put up a most outraged example of propaganda sentence (just look at your choice of words... I'd weep if hadn't known the facts), then you accuse me of falling into propaganda. (or are you joking?)

Moreover, you also misstate the view from the "international perspective". Recently, as more and more facts have been revealed, even the Western commentary (and the West isn't the world, surprise, surprise) has become balanced and far friendlier to Russia, to say the least.

By the way -- no insults meant -- but: how, on Earth, is Oklahoma (where you seem to live) more "international" than Moscow? I bet I talk here to more foreigners in a week than visit Oklahoma in a year. I don't doubt you can access good info on international affairs, but so can I

As for formal recognition of those 2 countries -- it happened later and it's a separte question unrelated to the one we are discussing here: who started the war.
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  #52  
Old 09 Dec 08, 12:16
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
Meanwhile, Georgia, a tiny little country, while trying to put down an insurrection within its own territory, was invaded and nearly destroyed by Russia, the Giant Bear to the north.
Nearly Destroyed....
Give me command of the Russian army and a target and I make Berlin 1945 look like a a flyshit on the window.
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  #53  
Old 09 Dec 08, 13:46
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Before I answer you I need to make a clarification so you'll understand my view point

I don't like Putin -- I don't care much for Medvedev either -- I believe neither of them are good for Russia and its people.

It is easy not to like Putin because of the perpetual sneer on his face that makes him look more like a criminal than a world leader. Medvedev is also hard to like because of his manner of speaking -- always a veiled threat - talking about how Russia must be reckoned with and so on. To me, strength is what one has -- not what one says he has - if you get my meaning.

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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
You state there is a difference. Please strictly define both objects ("a Nation", "a region") and explain what differentiates them. Explain what different rights they have, and how you'd enforce your differentiation. What if someone disagrees with your arguments?.
Alright - we'll put this in the perspective that virtually anyone can understand. The Example I pose is that of the United States in 1860. The United States, at that time, was comprised of many States - those States constituted a NATION. Upon the election of Abraham Lincoln to the Presidency, a REGION of that NATION - consisting of several Southern States decided to secede from the Union - or NATION of the United States. An armed conflict ensued and the Union prevailed -- the rest is history know to all.

I hope that clarifies for you the difference between a Nation and a Region that is a part of that Nation. Please recall that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have been part of Georgia longer than the Southern States were part of the United States when the American Civil War occurred.


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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
There are 300 countries on the Earth, thousands of peoples and dozens of conflicts, frozen or hot. Are you claiming you have a solution for all of them? .
Please point out for me where I have made any "claim" whatsoever. I really enjoy conversations much better when you don't try to tell me what I just said but rather just read what I said and accept it for how it was meant instead of adding or taking away from my comments.

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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
My friend, first you put up a most outraged example of propaganda sentence (just look at your choice of words... I'd weep if hadn't known the facts), then you accuse me of falling into propaganda. (or are you joking?)

Moreover, you also misstate the view from the "international perspective". Recently, as more and more facts have been revealed, even the Western commentary (and the West isn't the world, surprise, surprise) has become balanced and far friendlier to Russia, to say the least. .
I don't know why Russia is so sure that the 'West" - (what ever countries those may consist of varies day by day) - is so certain that we wish them ill ?? That isn't the case and it makes no sense in this day and time to believe that it is so. Mutual Destruction is not a goal to be strived for - rather it is one to be avoided at all cost. How best do we achieve that ??? By being friends and working together !!!

If Russia would stop saber rattling and blustering - friendship would be much easier to maintain.

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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
By the way -- no insults meant -- but: how, on Earth, is Oklahoma (where you seem to live) more "international" than Moscow? I bet I talk here to more foreigners in a week than visit Oklahoma in a year. I don't doubt you can access good info on international affairs, but so can I
.
Again -- where have I said Oklahoma is more international than Moscow ? I do realize and accept that Oklahoma is centrally located in the United States and is not a tourist destination. I, however, travel extensively and spend about a third of each year in Europe -- do you ?


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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
As for formal recognition of those 2 countries -- it happened later and it's a separate question unrelated to the one we are discussing here: who started the war.
Who started the war is not something we are going to argue about here and solve. My interpretation of who started the war is different from yours and always will be -- so no point in arguing.

I believe the first 'Military Action" was taken by Georgia -- but how was that action provoked ?? That question remains unanswered to date - we won't resolve that question here.

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Old 09 Dec 08, 13:58
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I don't like Putin -- I don't care much for Medvedev either -- I believe neither of them are good for Russia and its people.
That is the blessing of democracy, the majority Decides

Quote:
It is easy not to like Putin because of the perpetual sneer on his face that makes him look more like a criminal than a world leader.
Judging the dog after the hair?

Quote:
Medvedev is also hard to like because of his manner of speaking -- always a veiled threat - talking about how Russia must be reckoned with and so on. To me, strength is what one has -- not what one says he has - if you get my meaning.
http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/sdocs/themes.shtml



Quote:
I hope that clarifies for you the difference between a Nation and a Region that is a part of that Nation. Please recall that South Ossetia and Abkhazia have been part of Georgia longer than the Southern States were part of the United States when the American Civil War occurred.
Are you considering the time before the USSR?
And would then Finland be part of Sweden then?





A little nice page, click next in the top left corner.
http://home.zonnet.nl/gerardvonhebel/1519.htm



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If Russia would stop saber rattling and blustering - friendship would be much easier to maintain.
Saber rattling... What are your defnetion of saber rattling?






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Who started the war is not something we are going to argue about here and solve. My interpretation of who started the war is different from yours and always will be -- so no point in arguing.
Who did?
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  #55  
Old 09 Dec 08, 15:33
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Finland and Sweden are their own Nations now -- but Russia stole some of Finland's territory and hasn't given it back -- that's what I worry about with Russia -- they just bully their way through life
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Old 09 Dec 08, 15:35
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As far as who started the Georgia conflict -- agreed, Georgia fired the first shot with Military Action -- but I believe they were drawn into the fight by instigators who were trying very hard to get this conflict started. In my mind, Georgia was forced into an untenable situation and Russia took advantage of it.
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Old 09 Dec 08, 15:56
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Oh... I see, just some nations like Finland are allowed become independent while others isn´t...

Untenable situation... what forced Georgia to attak?

Whohoo Russia got two small "puppet" states as you say,without any reasources to speak off! Whohoo! What a bargain! Oh and they got a ruined city, and a lot of Georgian equipment. There it is! All Russia was after was the equipment that Georgians had!
And they only lost... erm 80 soldier , 3 tanks and some dozens of IFV to get it! Great deal isn´t it?
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Old 09 Dec 08, 16:18
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Finland gained independence in 1917 when the Czar was killed -- they had a personal obligation to the czar - not to Russia -- and the USSR agreed at that time that everyone could establish their own independence.


OK -- you want to know why Georgia attacked -- look at it this way -- Assume you are standing on a street and someone comes up and punches you in the nose -- you hit back -- so did you start the fight or did the other person ?? -- Now imagine that someone had been punching Georgia in the nose for several weeks -- and they finally got tired of it and hit back -- so who started the war the guys from South Ossetia that were instigating the conflict or Georgia that retaliated ??

The point is -- I don't care what Russia got out of the war - or how many men they lost -- had it been up to me, they would have lost every single man they sent outside the Russian borders.

Russia needs to be more stable at home - but instead, they venture out and try to take on more territory that doesn't belong to them - that's why I don't like Russia -- they want to take and occupy territory without giving it back to the rightful owners. The former Warsaw Pact countries are prime examples of that miserable policy so famous by Russia.
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Old 09 Dec 08, 16:28
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Finland gained independence in 1917 when the Czar was killed -- they had a personal obligation to the czar - not to Russia -- and the USSR agreed at that time that everyone could establish their own independence.
The declaration of independence was not made because of the death of the Czar. The declaration of independence was made because Finland could. Soviet Russia did not agree at that time that everyone could establish their own independence. In stead Soviet Russia attacked everyone who did and in most cases managed to squash the liberation movement.

In Finland the Soviets bet on local reds to win the day for Soviet Russia. They lost.

I agree in principle on what you say on who started the war in Georgia and Russian attempts to grab land (which is oh so 19th century).
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Old 09 Dec 08, 16:29
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OK -- you want to know why Georgia attacked -- look at it this way -- Assume you are standing on a street and someone comes up and punches you in the nose -- you hit back -- so did you start the fight or did the other person ?? -- Now imagine that someone had been punching Georgia in the nose for several weeks -- and they finally got tired of it and hit back -- so who started the war the guys from South Ossetia that were instigating the conflict or Georgia that retaliated ??
And this "punches" ware? and why did they not do like Gandhi? Did they found it better to start a war they could not possibly win alone?

Quote:
The point is -- I don't care what Russia got out of the war - or how many men they lost -- had it been up to me, they would have lost every single man they sent outside the Russian borders.
How would you plan to have done that?


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Russia needs to be more stable at home - but instead, they venture out and try to take on more territory that doesn't belong to them - that's why I don't like Russia -- they want to take and occupy territory without giving it back to the rightful owners. The former Warsaw Pact countries are prime examples of that miserable policy so famous by Russia.
Oh Russia Russia Russia, You constantly mix it with the USSR, and Stalin, a Georgian by the way.

Rightful owners? What is your logic with that? How long do a country need to control a area before it is the rightful owner?
Should Germany have all it had 1943 now? Or what Russia had in 1800?
What the mongols had... I don´t remember when...
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