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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #61  
Old 19 Oct 08, 14:02
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post



I have contacts in the RF army, they was to some degree taken by surprise, they knew that Georgians would make provocations, but they was not ready for a full scale invasion.

Yes Russia has problems admitting loosing old tanks like T-64 and T-72
It still remains to be seen if the Georgians were "making provocations" or were "responding" to provocations -- jury is still out on that.
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  #62  
Old 19 Oct 08, 14:13
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The EU said that the Georgian "aggression" was a misstake... So at least they have made up their mind.
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  #63  
Old 19 Oct 08, 14:18
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Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
The EU said that the Georgian "aggression" was a misstake... So at least they have made up their mind.
But - the question remains -- was it Provoked our Unprovoked ?
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  #64  
Old 19 Oct 08, 18:31
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Considering that they were outnumbered, and the 58th Army isn't exactly an exemplary Russian unit in terms of equipment, I think Russia did pretty well. They showed they still have muscle, and they realized they have units other than Spetnaz, VDV, etc. They also didn't go ahead and bomb the place ahead of time-more out of the fact they wanted to keep the people in SO alive, but still didn't help their ground forces much.
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  #65  
Old 19 Oct 08, 18:34
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Originally Posted by Rynnäkkökivääri View Post
Considering that they were outnumbered, and the 58th Army isn't exactly an exemplary Russian unit in terms of equipment, I think Russia did pretty well. They showed they still have muscle, and they realized they have units other than Spetnaz, VDV, etc. They also didn't go ahead and bomb the place ahead of time-more out of the fact they wanted to keep the people in SO alive, but still didn't help their ground forces much.
You don't want to give the Russians too much credit here -- there will be no Andrey or Emil_G to argue with if you do that
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  #66  
Old 20 Oct 08, 19:57
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Wink Please try to stay focused people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
But - the question remains -- was it Provoked our Unprovoked ?
A question still being beaten to death in other threads.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki
Once again I need to repeat myself about that it wasn´t the entire 54th army that moved in but a small force of troops with perhaps 10 BMP, 1-2 Tanks propably T-72.
It was even critisised to some degree since the commander was with that group.
I think this is important as this was not the sort of deployment that the US would be faced with. Grabbing a reinforced motorized rifle company, jumping on the highway, and driving to a battle less than a day away is a rather less impressive feat then getting even a few brigades moving in the same time.

In 1982 my tank battalion in West Germany could get the first company out the gate with a partial ammo load in two hours starting from a 3 AM alert. Some of us junior officers lived 20 minutes away so that included the recall time to get us all in to the barracks.

The difficulty in the Georgian operation is to try to piece together just how well each unit did/did not perform from such limited information.
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  #67  
Old 20 Oct 08, 22:44
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It didn't really say anything about Russia, the war was against a little guy so it was pretty clear who would win.
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  #68  
Old 21 Oct 08, 03:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post
The EU said that the Georgian "aggression" was a misstake... So at least they have made up their mind.
..certainly this had a bearing on the origins of the conflict, no doubt, so lets forhet about it, whats done is done, isnt it..!
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  #69  
Old 21 Oct 08, 03:18
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erkki View Post



I have contacts in the RF army, they was to some degree taken by surprise, they knew that Georgians would make provocations, but they was not ready for a full scale invasion.

Yes Russia has problems admitting loosing old tanks like T-64 and T-72
..although not knowing all the facts, but knowing that the basic grunt on the ground has absolutely no idea what is going on above his platoon, ill say that certain Russian units were on a higher alert than usual, just in case, not all of them, but some, it makes sense to me to do this, i think any army would try to prepare in such a manner..
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Old 21 Oct 08, 21:34
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I don't know much about the start either -- other than certain elements of the 58th Army were deployed very quickly - cell phone conversations recorded seemed to indicate a high state of readiness on the part of the Russians -- that's why I'm curious if the Georgians were "baited" -- Even though that notion may be being "beaten to death in other threads - it's still an open question for me.
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  #71  
Old 22 Oct 08, 05:43
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certainly, i agree, but still feel that some elements of the Russian army were given prior notice of what was going to happen, but, for my feelings, see post 69.
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Old 22 Oct 08, 05:51
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certainly, i agree, but still feel that some elements of the Russian army were given prior notice of what was going to happen, but, for my feelings, see post 69.
I agree - some elements must have been given "prior notice" -- the question is -- based on what intelligence ? My understanding is that, just earlier in the evening Saakashvili had flat stated that diplomacy was his goal -- something changed that and an attack was ordered -- why? -- that's the question .

Who did what to cause him to alter his goal ? Was it a preplanned intentional provocation - and were the Russians behind it -- and is that why they were "ready" ?
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  #73  
Old 22 Oct 08, 10:12
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I agree - some elements must have been given "prior notice" -- the question is -- based on what intelligence ? My understanding is that, just earlier in the evening Saakashvili had flat stated that diplomacy was his goal -- something changed that and an attack was ordered -- why? -- that's the question .
Quote:
Who did what to cause him to alter his goal ? Was it a preplanned intentional provocation - and were the Russians behind it -- and is that why they were "ready" ?
I can state that I agree with you and it would be the same, a lie.

There was signs the entire time.
Look a the dates
http://www.russiatoday.com/search?se...earch_pager=48
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Old 22 Oct 08, 10:14
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..although not knowing all the facts, but knowing that the basic grunt on the ground has absolutely no idea what is going on above his platoon, ill say that certain Russian units were on a higher alert than usual, just in case, not all of them, but some, it makes sense to me to do this, i think any army would try to prepare in such a manner..
Grunts? What are you taking me for? I know officers that knows higher officers and journalists that was in S Ossetia, I know people with relatives in Georgia. Well I know grunts to of course.
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Old 22 Oct 08, 10:18
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