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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #16  
Old 03 Feb 09, 04:34
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Russia acted like that because the US decided to encourage and recognize Kosovo's declaration of independence in 2008. Don't forget Serbia had friendly relations with Russia and NATO bombed it in 1999, then put troops on part of its territory and later on encouraged and recognized that territory's secession.
Now THAT I can understand.
The US acted stupidly there. Enough was enough, but Clinton had to divert attention from his scandals somehow, so there you go. Serbia was trying to combat massive illegal immigration bound to force another province to break off, and were perfectly justified in what they did. Kosovo was the stupidest military action of its age, and the fact that so much of Europe was right there with us means nothing... especially when you consider the tepid and temporary nature of thier support for our war on terror.



However, revenge ten years late kinda misses the point, dont you think?
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  #17  
Old 03 Feb 09, 10:35
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Good to see somebody pointing out the simple truths.

As to Kosovo - the matter isn't as simple. Kosovo was Albanian for at least a century, but probably for even longer. For Europe it is even pretty homogenous in its demographics. Milosevic was trying to turn back the clock and force as many Albanians out as possible. Kosovars had as much right to demand independence as say Slovenians, Croats, Slovaks, Armenians, Georgians, Azeri, Kazak, etc. or previously in the century Albanians, Czech, Poles, Hungarians, Finns, Ests, etc. etc. and the list gets pretty huge when we look at Africa and Asia.

I don't think the Kosovo situation was particularly well handled, but I don't think they could be denied independence. For that matter I would be glad to offer the same privileges to Ossetians and Abkhazians. However this conflict was not about Ossetian or Abkhazian self-determination, but about recovering Russian hegemony. Otherwise - why not join Northern Ossetia to Southern Ossetia to form a potentially viable new nation?
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  #18  
Old 03 Feb 09, 11:40
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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Actually, it was less than 6 months ago.

The abusive, deliberately insulting nature of your posts shows that either you take this very personally, or the Russians were wrong and you know it, or both.
He is partly Georgian and have realitives there.


Quote:
I paid little attention to the whole thing because I wanted the dust to settle before I got into it. It seems that there is still a lot of emotion here, even in response to simple questions.
So you walse right in and make judgements from a old article without knowing the very basics about this conflict?
I even told you to re-read or read the earlier disscussions in this part of the forum.

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Sorry guys, just because you berate me and try to make me look stupid, I will not look the other way and just let Russia get away with anything Putin wants to do. Just the opposite, as a matter of fact.
You can only to that yourself by making such statements.
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  #19  
Old 03 Feb 09, 12:01
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Good to see somebody pointing out the simple truths.
Those would be?
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  #20  
Old 03 Feb 09, 12:30
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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Now THAT I can understand.
The US acted stupidly there. Enough was enough, but Clinton had to divert attention from his scandals somehow, so there you go. Serbia was trying to combat massive illegal immigration bound to force another province to break off, and were perfectly justified in what they did. Kosovo was the stupidest military action of its age, and the fact that so much of Europe was right there with us means nothing... especially when you consider the tepid and temporary nature of thier support for our war on terror.

However, revenge ten years late kinda misses the point, dont you think?
In the first half of 1999 Russia was in financial troubles and was led by an alcoholic President whose international stature was laughable. After Putin came he had his hands full with Chechnya and other issues. In 2008 Putin was in charge, Russia was riding the high oil price wave, Chechnya was largely pacified and the US backed Kosovo's independence. It was probably an appropriate moment to return the slap.
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Old 03 Feb 09, 12:43
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
As to Kosovo - the matter isn't as simple. Kosovo was Albanian for at least a century, but probably for even longer. For Europe it is even pretty homogenous in its demographics. Milosevic was trying to turn back the clock and force as many Albanians out as possible. Kosovars had as much right to demand independence as say Slovenians, Croats, Slovaks, Armenians, Georgians, Azeri, Kazak, etc. or previously in the century Albanians, Czech, Poles, Hungarians, Finns, Ests, etc. etc. and the list gets pretty huge when we look at Africa and Asia.
The Albanians were driven out by the conflict between the Serbs and the Albanian guerillas. Refugees are inevitable in any conflict.

Secondly, there was no Milosevic in 2008. Serbia was opening up to the West, a democracy was getting started. If the US really wanted to it could have promoted a reconciliation between the Serbs and the Albanians in the form of a federal state.

But when you have a former KLA leader as the leader of Kosovo, what reconciliation can there be!
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  #22  
Old 03 Feb 09, 15:01
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
The Albanians were driven out by the conflict between the Serbs and the Albanian guerillas. Refugees are inevitable in any conflict.
The Kosovar Albanians had good reason to pick up arms. They weren't allowed representation and Milosevic policies were increasingly repressive. A classic independence movement as a response to repressive autocratic government with no democratic alternative.

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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Secondly, there was no Milosevic in 2008. Serbia was opening up to the West, a democracy was getting started. If the US really wanted to it could have promoted a reconciliation between the Serbs and the Albanians in the form of a federal state.

But when you have a former KLA leader as the leader of Kosovo, what reconciliation can there be!
The damage was already done during Milosevic years as clearly demonstrated by the Kosovars at the voting booths. Why should the US try to cheat them out of their country? The only conceivable reason is realpolitiks a la Yalta - not very nice.

I am glad the US didn't go that route, as it would've only prolonged the grief. Reconciliation after what had happened was not realistic and if the Kosovars would be held in limbo indefinitely it would have just been easy pickings for somebody wanting to incite violence and radicalize the population.
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  #23  
Old 03 Feb 09, 16:21
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
The Kosovar Albanians had good reason to pick up arms.
Everybody does. Not all receive the aid the Kosovo Albanians received.

You didn't see the US bombing Turkey for standing up to the PKK. And thousands died and were made homeless in that case.

Albania also played an active role in aiding the KLA and no fuss was made. On the contrary, the US threatened Serbia not to dare go after the KLA's safe havens over the border. It then extended its support to Albania, making it the perfect base for the insurgency next door.

Compare that to the US looking the other way or actively giving intel while Turkey invades or bombs the Kurdish region in Iraq.

So the picture is clear. The US did that because Yugoslavia was not an ally, moreover it was more or less alligned with Russia. So Russia did the same to Georgia last year.

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The damage was already done during Milosevic years as clearly demonstrated by the Kosovars at the voting booths. Why should the US try to cheat them out of their country? The only conceivable reason is realpolitiks a la Yalta - not very nice.
The US has been pressuring Serbia for years to hand over former regime figures and to isolate "extremist" parties, while it stood by and watched a former KLA guerilla leader take the lead in Kosovo. Not only that, but it offered him recognition of independence! Not very nice.

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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
I am glad the US didn't go that route, as it would've only prolonged the grief. Reconciliation after what had happened was not realistic and if the Kosovars would be held in limbo indefinitely it would have just been easy pickings for somebody wanting to incite violence and radicalize the population.
The Kosovars are in limbo. They haven't secured international recognition for their independence. Ironically, the Turkey that militarily fights against the Kurds' right to independence was among the first countries to recognize the Albanians' right to independence.
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Old 03 Feb 09, 16:26
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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
You'r the one that walked into it!
You are the one that made up his mind before learning even the simple facts, and not only made up his mind but ranted and raved, and when called out started crying and being butthurt. But yeah, you are right, I called you out so I walked into it.
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Old 03 Feb 09, 16:59
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Everybody does. Not all receive the aid the Kosovo Albanians received.
Not just everybody. There are minimum requirements. Like having a people, having a territory, having a government and having the will. There are many nations who don't manage all those.

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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
You didn't see the US bombing Turkey for standing up to the PKK. And thousands died and were made homeless in that case.
The unfortunate fact that you cannot help everywhere isn't a reason for inaction where you can help. Of course in the case of Milosevic' Yugoslavia it was a major destabilizing factor for Europe - so the stakes were much higher than in Kurdistan.

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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
So the picture is clear. The US did that because Yugoslavia was not an ally, moreover it was more or less alligned with Russia. So Russia did the same to Georgia last year.
What an odd conclusion. I cannot see what Russia had to do with it. The issue was not Russia - which at the time everybody was still trying to consider as a friend - but European stability. EU countries would have done it themselves if they'd just had the capability. Since they didn't - US stepped in.

NATO tried its best to placate Russia by allowing them the opportunity to send their peacekeepers to Kosovo. Russia's position was considered, it certainly was not the target.

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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
The US has been pressuring Serbia for years to hand over former regime figures and to isolate "extremist" parties, while it stood by and watched a former KLA guerilla leader take the lead in Kosovo. Not only that, but it offered him recognition of independence! Not very nice.
The main body doing the pressuring is not really US, but various UN bodies with regard to their ongoing investigations and criminal proceedings in Hague. There are other NATO countries much more active in this regard than US. The Dutch for instance have been interested in washing off some of the Srebrenica shame.

I don't really see a problem with former KLA guerrilla leaders taking lead. Both Washington and De Gaulle were presidents of their nations and nobody had a beef with that.

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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
The Kosovars are in limbo. They haven't secured international recognition for their independence. Ironically, the Turkey that militarily fights against the Kurds' right to independence was among the first countries to recognize the Albanians' right to independence.
I don't see them in a limbo. They've secured enough recognitions that they can easily function as a state. Its not like they're ready for EU, so they have still many years to placate the few Euro nations that have not recognized them. Obviously what they make of their state is mostly up to them. Maybe they'll succeed, or then again maybe they fail - what's important is that they now have their chance.

It is of course disgraceful that petty politicking is the deciding factor for many nations in deciding whether to recognize Kosovo. As I've mentioned before I am firm believer of the right of self-determination and think the path to independence should be open to any nation able to walk the path. I'd be happy to welcome Ossetia as an independent nation - but again what happened in SO was not about Ossetian independence.
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Old 03 Feb 09, 19:31
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Hold on a sec, Vlad.

Compare that to the US looking the other way or actively giving intel while Turkey invades or bombs the Kurdish region in Iraq.

A few Kurdish crazies were using Iraq for a staging area and making raids into Turkey. That was not just mean and foolish, it was an attack against a NATO country! What, you would have proffered that we helped the Kurds?
We played fair, and you want to rag on us for that too?

So the picture is clear. The US did that because Yugoslavia was not an ally, moreover it was more or less alligned with Russia. So Russia did the same to Georgia last year.

Right... but because it was aligned with Russia? What did that really mean in 1999, anyhow?

So, they have cruise missiles in Kaliningrad pointed at somewhere in Poland, just in case they those 10 anti-missiles, angry reporters leaning on Estonia, the Gas fiasco with Ukraine, and war on Georgia. Are they done? What new Blitz in being prepared for anyone who is committing the horrible sin of being friendly to the US?

What will Putin demand for all of eastern and central Europe, and central Asia, if they would rather avoid what happened to Georgia?
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Old 03 Feb 09, 19:42
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The Kaliningrand missile thing was scrapped when Obama put the Polish ones on hold. I heard it on the news. Makes sense to me.
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Old 04 Feb 09, 00:24
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There is no change to the status of Polish missiles. Obama just told he would review their necessity.

The Kaliningrad missiles was an empty threat from the beginning (just like Russian military minds must well understand that the 10 missiles are not a threat to Russian defence, but a restriction on possible conventional offensive options). I would think the Kaliningrad missiles were scrapped due to cost and it was done at the first face saving opportunity.

Last edited by pp(est); 04 Feb 09 at 00:27..
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Old 04 Feb 09, 00:29
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
There is no change to the status of Polish missiles. Obama just told he would review their necessity.

The Kaliningrad missiles was an empty threat from the beginning (just like Russian military minds must well understand that the 10 missiles are not a threat to Russian defence, but a restriction on possible conventional offensive options). I would think the Kaliningrad missiles were scrapped due to cost and it was done at the first face saving opportunity.
He knows they are uneccesary, just like the Russian missiles are. Russians don't want their military offensive options dictated by anyone, neither does the USA.
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Old 04 Feb 09, 04:50
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Originally Posted by Exorcist View Post
Hold on a sec, Vlad.

Compare that to the US looking the other way or actively giving intel while Turkey invades or bombs the Kurdish region in Iraq.


A few Kurdish crazies were using Iraq for a staging area and making raids into Turkey. That was not just mean and foolish, it was an attack against a NATO country! What, you would have proffered that we helped the Kurds?
We played fair, and you want to rag on us for that too?
[B]
Just as Albania was used as a staging area, with Albanians sending weapons and volunteers to the KLA guerillas in Kosovo. Not only did the US help the Albanians destabilize a sovereign country, but it also extend its protection over their safe havens in Albania.

But it's good you mentioned the NATO part. Indeed, Turkey is an ally, Serbia was not. That's one of the main things that explains the differences in behavior.
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