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  #91  
Old 25 Aug 08, 15:35
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Originally Posted by leandros View Post
Hmmm.....why not place them in Georgia....
Look at globe you will see why.
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  #92  
Old 25 Aug 08, 16:43
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Originally Posted by delboy View Post
Don't take Russia lightly. Do you really think that Putin would work that hard to create a powerful empire and let others to take control over his "rightful" eastern Europe?

Besides, did you know that the only oil pipe line to Europe that isn't going through Russia goes through Georgia and Russia happens to control it now? That makes about 80-90% control over Europe and all that's left is US. Isn't that nice or what?
Nice to know that somebody else made the connection besides me!
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  #93  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:00
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Originally Posted by leandros View Post
He might be thinking of these guys at the Phillipines - the Moris...around 1900...? That was when the doughboys found that the .38 caliber was too weak for them. And upped to the .45........ they didn't understand that they hadn't actually hit anybody. Same in 'Nam. Nothing wrong with the M16.
Well, you know back then we did not have to worry about cameras and CNN.
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  #94  
Old 26 Aug 08, 06:07
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Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
Look at globe you will see why.
I did. You didn't. Right on track. See below:

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  #95  
Old 26 Aug 08, 07:03
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..is that the Russian army waving up at us from down there...?
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  #96  
Old 26 Aug 08, 07:38
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leandros, if the interceptors were in Georgia, why wouldn't Iran then fire the missiles close to its border with Turkey so that the interceptors in Georgia would not have enough time to react? Also I doubt Iran would want to hit Poland - you should probably track the missile path to London or New York - the much more likelier targets (besides Israel).

Ideal positions for the interceptors seem to be Poland and Ukraine.

BTW Iran responded to the news of the interceptors in Poland with the announcement that they will build a sub capable of firing missiles.
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  #97  
Old 26 Aug 08, 08:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
leandros, if the interceptors were in Georgia, why wouldn't Iran then fire the missiles close to its border with Turkey so that the interceptors in Georgia would not have enough time to react?.
Wouldn't they....? Anybody else here having technical knowledge on this. Are ICBM better taken down during their climb, cruise (which is really just the hyperbole of their travel) or the vertical dive towards their targets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Also I doubt Iran would want to hit Poland - you should probably track the missile path to London or New York.
So the Rocket Shield isn't really to protect Europe...?

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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
--- the much more likelier targets (besides Israel)
A Polish-based Rocket Shield doesn't help that much....

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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Ideal positions for the interceptors seem to be Poland and Ukraine.
Hmmmm.....particularly if the real purpose is to defend against rockets launched in Russia. Oooops, I forgot. That is not the purpose. Says Condolezza....

Quote:
Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
BTW Iran responded to the news of the interceptors in Poland with the announcement that they will build a sub capable of firing missiles.
So much for the Rocket Shield, then.....go tell Condolezza...
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  #98  
Old 26 Aug 08, 09:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leandros View Post
Wouldn't they....? Anybody else here having technical knowledge on this. Are ICBM better taken down during their climb, cruise (which is really just the hyperbole of their travel) or the vertical dive towards their targets?
Since the interceptor cannot chase after the missile and there is a time involved for detecting the launch and firing the interceptor, having the interceptor very close to the launch site makes little sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leandros View Post
So the Rocket Shield isn't really to protect Europe...?
It obviously couldn't protect the whole of Europe, but it could protect a good chunk of it, including the most likely target in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leandros View Post
A Polish-based Rocket Shield doesn't help that much....
No, it couldn't protect Israel. From Israel's pov, Iran having the nuke is a disaster no matter what.

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Originally Posted by leandros View Post
Hmmmm.....particularly if the real purpose is to defend against rockets launched in Russia. Oooops, I forgot. That is not the purpose. Says Condolezza....
Interceptors in Ukraine are even more worthless to defend against Russian missiles than in Poland. Play with google earth - see for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leandros View Post
So much for the Rocket Shield, then.....go tell Condolezza...
If they do get the sub(s) operating and if they manage to hide its operations from the allies then yes, the Rocket Shield becomes useless. However, Iran has been known to bluff in these matters before and the amount of technology needed for the sub, they will have an operating nuke and an ICBM well before they have the sub ready. Unless of course Russia hands them the tech.

We're in a hurry to get the shield up before Iran actually manages to get the nuke and ICBM, after that we need to figure how to counter the sub(s). Fortunately Iran's economy is such that their resources are very limited in terms of the missiles and subs they could get operational.

Last edited by pp(est); 26 Aug 08 at 09:08..
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  #99  
Old 26 Aug 08, 09:16
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Originally Posted by leandros View Post
Wouldn't they....? Anybody else here having technical knowledge on this. Are ICBM better taken down during their climb, cruise (which is really just the hyperbole of their travel) or the vertical dive towards their targets?


So the Rocket Shield isn't really to protect Europe...?


A Polish-based Rocket Shield doesn't help that much....


Hmmmm.....particularly if the real purpose is to defend against rockets launched in Russia. Oooops, I forgot. That is not the purpose. Says Condolezza....


So much for the Rocket Shield, then.....go tell Condolezza...
The GBI's in Poland are midcourse interceptors.They intercept a missile in its free flight in the atmosphere.Intercepting a missile in its boost phase is very difficult because of the short reaction time.
Poland is ideal for intercepting a iranian missile in midcourse.The map shows that.Interceptors can not be close to iran because it takes a few minutes to fire.
GBI's in Poland cannot shoot down rssian ballistic missiles.Totally wrong location.
It is not obvious for Iran to have sub's with ballistic missiles..Groundbased ballistic missiles are another thing.

Last edited by tigerivan; 26 Aug 08 at 09:19..
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  #100  
Old 26 Aug 08, 09:18
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Since the interceptor cannot chase after the missile and there is a time involved for detecting the launch and firing the interceptor, having the interceptor very close to the launch site makes little sense.



It obviously couldn't protect the whole of Europe, but it could protect a good chunk of it, including the most likely target in Europe.



No, it couldn't protect Israel. From Israel's pov, Iran having the nuke is a disaster no matter what.



Interceptors in Ukraine are even more worthless to defend against Russian missiles than in Poland. Play with google earth - see for yourself.



If they do get the sub(s) operating and if they manage to hide its operations from the allies then yes, the Rocket Shield becomes useless. However, Iran has been known to bluff in these matters before and the amount of technology needed for the sub, they will have an operating nuke and an ICBM well before they have the sub ready. Unless of course Russia hands them the tech.

We're in a hurry to get the shield up before Iran actually manages to get the nuke and ICBM, after that we need to figure how to counter the sub(s). Fortunately Iran's economy is such that their resources are very limited in terms of the missiles and subs they could get operational.
Well said.Iranian subs with ballistic missiles are not obvious.
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  #101  
Old 26 Aug 08, 09:54
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Originally Posted by tigerivan View Post
It is not obvious for Iran to have sub's with ballistic missiles..Groundbased ballistic missiles are another thing.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hti.../20080826.aspx
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  #102  
Old 26 Aug 08, 10:13
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Originally Posted by tigerivan View Post
Poland is ideal for intercepting a iranian missile in midcourse..
Not if the target is Europe. Then it is too close to the target for being midrange. The missile would already be in a steep descent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerivan View Post
The map shows that.Interceptors can not be close to iran because it takes a few minutes to fire.
GBI's in Poland cannot shoot down rssian ballistic missiles.Totally wrong location..
On the contrary. Depending on where it is launched from in Russia Poland would be midrange for many European targets.
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  #103  
Old 26 Aug 08, 10:33
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....deja vu....

If you are interested in - and has some knowledge of - military history - this should be of interest:

U.S. and Poland Come to BMD Agreement
August 15, 2008 :: News

Poland announced today that they have come to an agreement with the United States over the basing on Polish territory of ballistic missile defense interceptors. The historic agreement details include the positioning of ten ground based interceptors for the purpose of deterring a Middle Eastern ballistic missile threat, most specifically from Iran. In exchange for the installation, Warsaw has secured a guarantee that Poland will be protected by the United States in a more swift manner than required by NATO. Two aspect of the deal include that for a time American military will man the interceptor installations, and that in the case of attack against Poland the United States would be obliged to defend Poland with greater speed than normally required between NATO members. Both aspects tend to reinforce the security commitment in light of Russian threats.

The timing of the agreement has sparked Russian anger, given U.S. agreements with a former Warsaw Pact country. Russia has repeatedly attacked the project, making both veiled and acute threats to Poland, including nuclear threats. Given the recent Russian invasion of Georgia, the Russian Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman, Konstantin Kosachyov, has said that the deal deal will only intensify the stress on U.S.-Russian relations.

Didn't help them (Poland) much last time.....
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  #104  
Old 26 Aug 08, 10:37
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Not if the target is Europe. Then it is too close to the target for being midrange. The missile would already be in a steep descent.


On the contrary. Depending on where it is launched from in Russia Poland would be midrange for many European targets.
Leandros is wrong.The interceptors do not have to be stationed midrange between the target and the ballistic missiles;they have to be stationed enough back from midrange so that they can intercept the missiles midrange taking into account the reaction time.
The GBI's in Poland are far enough from Iran for the GBI's to be lauched in time to intercept the missiles while still in the atmosphere.
Otherwise PAC's would have been stationed and not GBI's.
Russia will by definition lauch from mobile launchers close to the border against europe.Protecting Europe would necessitate placing huge numbers of PAC's.
A link to a video with a simulation how missiledefense works.A lauch is detected f(rom North korea);radars are pointed at the missiles;their probable impactpoints are calculated;a decision is made to use PAC's against the shortrange missiles aimed at southkorea,standard missiles from ships against missiles aimed at Japan and GBI's in Alaska and California against missiles directed against Hawaii and the mainland.
It shows that missiledefense is more than pushing a button and firing an interceptor.Quick decisions have to be made concerning probable targets and which interceptors to be used.
http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/videos/layered.wmv
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  #105  
Old 26 Aug 08, 12:54
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Originally Posted by leandros View Post
I did. You didn't. Right on track. See below:

"The World she is a round not flat" (bugs bunny)

look at a globe instead of a flat map

try again
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