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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #91  
Old 18 Aug 08, 21:56
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Thanks Zyungar, that actually makes a lot of sense. Now whether the reason the alert level was raised was because of increasing tensions or whether it was done in order to increase tensions will be a matter of debate. But overall I think you've added some good info for the group to chew on.

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Originally Posted by Zyungar View Post
. . . Russian forces had never achieved numerical supperiority. In fact, ther are maybe 10-12 thousands solders participating in SO defence. Its just as a fighting force Russian troops are much better than Georgian regardless of the quality of their equipment.
Actually at the point of contact this would have given the Russians significant local superiority. The Georgians were spread out. The brigades covering the two separatist enclaves were not able to support eachother. The brigade that launched the initial Georgian attack was set up to fight Ossentian milita and got caught by surprise when faced with heavy armor.

The Russians used advantages of being on the offensive to keep the Georgians from responding effectively. There isn't much evidence that the Georgians established any coherent defense until after the Russians had already achieved their operational objective, apparently Gori. The additional Russian deception of feignting toward Tiblisi and letting the media see it effectively kept the Georgians guessing and prevented any sort of organized counter attack.

Of course that is only my interpretation but on the whole I think the 58th Army did pretty well - they got the job done.
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  #92  
Old 19 Aug 08, 01:35
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"Now whether the reason the alert level was raised was because of increasing tensions or whether it was done in order to increase tensions will be a matter of debate."

I don't see a reason for debate here. As I said, 19th division is a constant readiness unit. There is no higher alert status for it short of full readiness. And judging from time it took its units to drive to Tskhinval in full force I dont think it was brought to full readiness (IOW out of barracks and in staging area) although the speed of the response can be explaned also by the fact that Russian 58th Army held maneuvers just a few days before Georgian attack (just as Georgian army helm maneuvers with US marines at the same time).

From what I can read in russian media as of morning of August 10th russian peasekeepers in Tskhinval were still under Georgian attack, having been defending its base for more than 2 days, with elements of 135 MRR (Thats the regiment in which my cousin served) from 19th division not able to fight their way to them. Georgian units having a local superiority in numbers attempted to cut off forward russian units massing around Tckhinval and then surround them (thats the impression journalists with military background have gotten) but were beaten back, suffered from Russian AF and artillery, lost cohesion and control, their armor was outmaneuvered and supporting infantry cut off and dispersed, then additional Russian units arrived and Georgian army withdrew leaving some Georgian units surrounded.

Most Georgian troops after a day of battle lost the will to fight and fled, while some Georgian units trained by US and Isralies fought better but could do nothing but either reatreat or get wiped out. These battles around Tskhinval is the reason why Georgian troops stopped fighting and simply fled to Tbilisy as their command structure collapsed.

First Russian troops to arrive in Tskhinval were no more that 3-4 BTGs (battalion tactical groups) with support units. Due to difficult supply route build up of Russian forces was slow. As far as I know Russian forces in Georgia still number less than what Georgians can put out, but they have a better fighting spirit, better training, air superiority, etc.

Another reason - not many georgians want to actually fight russians. Don't forget we used to be one country, over a million georgians live in Russia, something like 1 out of every 5. Same goes for Russians. They don't want to bomb Georgia into stone age, just reduce some fighting capabilty. Have you heard of any reprisals against georgians in Russia from locals? Tensions exist and don't like that at all. I, as many russians, would prefer to live in peace with them.

By the way, I'm not ethnically a russian and I'm from one of the autonomus republics in Russia, where we have some limited soverenity to preserve our ethnicity. Same what south ossetians are striving for and would most likely be denied if Saakashvili had his way. They just don't trust georgian government's promisses as their recents history tells them that not only they would not get an autonomy but they would be denied the right to be what they are.
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  #93  
Old 19 Aug 08, 23:32
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Question Nice post

When do you really think the Russians will pull out by the way?

Cheers

Tom
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  #94  
Old 20 Aug 08, 00:14
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They will take their time . . .

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Originally Posted by TRDG View Post
When do you really think the Russians will pull out by the way?

Cheers

Tom
As long as the Russians control any part of the road, rail, and pipeline links from Gori to Turkey and the Black Sea, Georgia has an effective GDP of zero [okay, I rounded down].

That puts tremendous pressure on the Georgian government to be agreeable without any more shooting.
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  #95  
Old 20 Aug 08, 21:37
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South Ossetian conflict

I agree with Peters article,you cant trust the Russians never could and never will.Patton should have been allowed to continue and crush them in WW2.Putin is KGB and he wants to take back all the satellite countries that russia gave up.He also knows that we have our hands in Iraq.
If Obama becomes US president Russia will continue rolling.McCain will step in and stop this Blitzkreig.But at what cost.
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  #96  
Old 21 Aug 08, 02:26
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Question So....

NOT by Friday you suspect, and di you see the "revised" Russian casualty list that the BBC posted about the South Osettia civilian losses?

Cheers, Friday is just around the corner

Tom
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  #97  
Old 23 Aug 08, 07:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalin View Post
still, it was the Serbs only who were subjected to genocide .
Oh like un july 1995 in Srebrenica
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Old 23 Aug 08, 07:56
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Originally Posted by piero1971 View Post

I think for the first yes, and for the second yes, as much as western nations did on Kosovo (I knew then that that was a Pandora's box, indeed a tribute to Clinton and Albright's folly).
As far as former Yugoslavia is concerned it's seems that their is no more war in that area.
So seems to me that that policy was not that bad.
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  #99  
Old 23 Aug 08, 08:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD Morelock View Post
Bosnian Serbs as the aggressors and the Bosnian Muslims as innocent victims, and was doing everything it could to get Gen. Powell (then JCS Chairman) to support the use of US troops in the region. The truth, as has been noted by some posters on this thread, is that both sides committed outrages -- the Serbs, who got most of the heavy weapons when Yugoslavia collapsed, were just better equipped to prosecute military actions. Yet, the Bosnian Muslims proved adept at 'provoking' what to the media seemed like Serb outrages, using these propaganda coups to garner international sympathy.

One example that stands out in my mind -- and might be relevant to the current crisis -- is during the 'siege of Sarajevo.' Bosnian Muslim mortar crews would set up near one of their own hospitals and start firing at Serb artillery positions. This, naturally, soon brought down Serb artillery fire on the mortar position -- and of course, collateral damage to the hospital. By the time the media showed up, of course, the mortar crew was long gone, but the Bosnian Muslims were quick to shepard the media camera crews around the damage done to the hospital, generating the headlines "Serb Gunners Target Hospital."
Well the independance of Bosnia was recognized by the EU and the USA in april 1992 after fulfilling the conditions set by the Badinter commision , the independance of Republika Srpska proclamed in January 1992 was'nt recognized by anyone.
So the Sarajevo governement had international law on it's side .
If Muslims commited atrocities their is no evidence of a massacre commited by the "Muslims" at the same scale of Srebrenica.
And it seems to me that the US policy brought a cease-fire in the region; still holding nowadays.
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Old 19 Sep 08, 20:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsass View Post
As far as former Yugoslavia is concerned it's seems that their is no more war in that area.
So seems to me that that policy was not that bad.
salut,
I should have been precise in giving a date. I was referring to the 1999 needless bombing of Serbia about the status of Kosovo.
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  #101  
Old 27 Oct 08, 22:55
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Interesting talk by Oksana Antonenko at Canergie Council recorded Oct. 14th.
http://www.cceia.org/resources/video/data/000080
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  #102  
Old 27 Oct 08, 23:50
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[quote=ktnbs;1025039]Interesting talk by Oksana Antonenko at Canergie Council recorded Oct. 14th.
http://www.cceia.org/resources/video/data/000080[/quote]

Thanks for the link. Great find.
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  #103  
Old 08 Nov 08, 16:15
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Here you can watch huge collection of photos about war in Ossetia :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxxiCCSD2hk
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