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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Armor in World War II > German and Axis Armor

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German and Axis Armor Discuss German and Axis armored fighting vehicles in World War II. This is also the forum for Achtung Panzer.

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  #31  
Old 09 Oct 08, 09:17
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Originally Posted by cougar1 View Post
In my "Top 5 of WWII", I count the Pz.Kpfw. IV with the T-34, Panther, Sherman, and Tiger.
I completely agree, although not in that order.
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  #32  
Old 09 Oct 08, 16:13
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I wasn't using a particuar order.
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  #33  
Old 10 Oct 08, 04:45
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Just out of idle curiuosity,did Germans have plans to up gun the Pz. IV? For instance,mounting a 88 gun on them.
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  #34  
Old 10 Oct 08, 04:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate View Post
Just out of idle curiuosity,did Germans have plans to up gun the Pz. IV? For instance,mounting a 88 gun on them.
Only if the loader and commander were happy to sit on top of the turret!
But in all seriousness I think they didn't contemplate anything else, just remember, the Ausf A to start with had a short barreled 37mm L/45 in 1937! To upgrade as much as they did was, for the most part simply catching up with what the allied AFVs were armed with. Grossly simplified but I hope you see what I mean.

The 88 was a powerful gun, and the chassis would not have been adequate to allow for such a large gun to be installed in a turret.
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Last edited by Achtung Baby; 10 Oct 08 at 06:29..
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  #35  
Old 10 Oct 08, 08:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung baby View Post
Only if the loader and commander were happy to sit on top of the turret!
But in all seriousness I think they didn't contemplate anything else, just remember, the Ausf A to start with had a short barreled 37mm L/45 in 1937! To upgrade as much as they did was, for the most part simply catching up with what the allied AFVs were armed with. Grossly simplified but I hope you see what I mean.

The 88 was a powerful gun, and the chassis would not have been adequate to allow for such a large gun to be installed in a turret.
The PzKpfw IV Ausf. A had a 75mm gun from the very beginning (7.5cm KwK37 L/24). This remained the standard armament until Ausf. F.
During production of Ausf. F, the switch was made to the 7.5cm KwK40 L/43, these vehicles intially being designated Ausf. F2 for a brief period before they were re-designated Ausf. G. Very late in Ausf. G series, the KwK40 was lengthened to L/48 which remained the standard armament until the last Ausf. J and the end of production.

By the time PzKpfw IV had reached its peak of development, with extra armour and the longer, heavier KwK40, the chassis was overloaded. Neither the chassis nor the turret ring could have coped with the 88mm gun.
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  #36  
Old 10 Oct 08, 16:50
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Thanks for the correction panther3485, I did realise my mistake but was too tired to bother correcting it... was going to fix it today!
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  #37  
Old 10 Oct 08, 22:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung baby View Post
"Thanks for the correction panther3485, I did realise my mistake but was too tired to bother correcting it... was going to fix it today!"
No worries, mate.

I was guessing maybe you'd got the Panzer 3 and Panzer 4 mixed up (easily done if you are tired or not thinking) and hadn't noticed it, as it was the earlier Ausfuhrungen of PzKpfw III that had a 3.7cm KwK L/46.5, which is listed in some sources as L/45.
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  #38  
Old 14 Oct 08, 19:17
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Hello.
At the end of the war, the German High-Command planned to upgun the Pz. IV with the "Schmalturm" from the Panther-F Project! In this case, the Pz. IV mount a long 7,5cm L/70 gun without muzzlebreak.
http://www.panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/pkpfw.html (you must scroll down to the last drawing).
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  #39  
Old 15 Oct 08, 03:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattus View Post
Hello.
At the end of the war, the German High-Command planned to upgun the Pz. IV with the "Schmalturm" from the Panther-F Project! In this case, the Pz. IV mount a long 7,5cm L/70 gun without muzzlebreak.
http://www.panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/pkpfw.html (you must scroll down to the last drawing).
Nice link.
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  #40  
Old 15 Oct 08, 04:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chattus View Post
Hello.
At the end of the war, the German High-Command planned to upgun the Pz. IV with the "Schmalturm" from the Panther-F Project! In this case, the Pz. IV mount a long 7,5cm L/70 gun without muzzlebreak.
http://www.panzerschreck.de/panzer/pzkpfw/pkpfw.html (you must scroll down to the last drawing).
Yes, but the proposed project was dropped because the chassis - already overloaded by Ausf. H/J - would not have been able to take the additional weight.

Quote:
"In November of 1944, interesting concept was proposed by Krupp to mount Panzer IV Ausf H with Panther Ausf F’s new narrow turret (mounted with 75mm KwK 42 or 44/1 L/70 gun), but it was rejected since it would overburden the chassis."

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm
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  #41  
Old 15 Oct 08, 04:07
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I'm curious about the drawing of the Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H mit Schmalturm, it has a striking similarity, if not the same to the proposed Panther F turret and from what I have read the larger gun could only be reloaded when fully elevated, once the four round clip was expended(?) Thus giving it a theoretical 40 rounds per minute rate of fire!

I have seen a model kit of a E-100 chassis mounting this same turret too...

Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H mit Schmalturm


Panzerkampfwagen V Ausf. F (Sd.Kfz. 171)
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  #42  
Old 15 Oct 08, 04:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung baby View Post
I'm curious about the drawing of the Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H mit Schmalturm, it has a striking similarity, if not the same to the proposed Panther F turret and from what I have read the larger gun could only be reloaded when fully elevated, once the four round clip was expended(?) Thus giving it a theoretical 40 rounds per minute rate of fire!

I have seen a model kit of a E-100 chassis mounting this same turret too...

Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H mit Schmalturm


Panzerkampfwagen V Ausf. F (Sd.Kfz. 171)
Be careful, the relative scale and proportion of those drawings looks quite suspicious to me.

The schmalturm for Panther was actually made and Ausf. F was created by mounting schmalturm on a slightly modified Ausf. G. At least two such vehicles were assembled as 'prototypes', one as early as 20 August 1944. Production was to commence in 1945, with the contracted main assembly firms to have started delivery of Ausf. F according to the following planned schedule:
  • Daimler-Benz in March, starting with Panther number 2229
  • MAN in April, starting with Panther number 2621
  • Krupp-Gruson in April, starting with their first Panther
  • Nibelungenwerk in April, starting with their first Panther
  • MNH in May, starting with Panther number 2303
However, delays occurred and production never got properly under way. Although from all sources I have been able to examine so far it is not proven, it has been speculated that a handful may have been built. If so, these would have been issued between 20 and 23 April 1945 to II./Panzer-Regiment 2 for immediate deployment in defence of the Berlin area.

Pages 103-113, 'Germany's Panther Tank - The Quest for Combat Supremancy', Thomas Jentz & Hilary Doyle, Schiffer
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Last edited by panther3485; 15 Oct 08 at 04:43..
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  #43  
Old 15 Oct 08, 05:29
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Thanks panther3485, when you mention the drawings not being in proportion to scale would it be that the Schmalturm turret should be appearing much bigger on the Panzer IV chassis?
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Old 15 Oct 08, 05:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achtung baby View Post
"Thanks panther3485, when you mention the drawings not being in proportion to scale would it be that the Schmalturm turret should be appearing much bigger on the Panzer IV chassis?"
Maybe not 'much' bigger but certainly bigger, yes.

Put it another way. If you look at the schmalturm in both drawings, the one rendered on the PzKpfw IV is actually a smidge bigger. If you reduced that top drawing to make the schmalturms precisely the same size, the PzKpfw IV would still be too big compared to the Panther!

The proportions shown on the Panther Ausf. F appear correct, the proportions on the PzKpfw IV look highly suspicious.

The possible explantions that occur to me are:
  • No attempt was made to achieve precise scale/proportion
  • Whoever prepared the drawing of the PzKpfw IV was just having a bad day (incidental but honest error)
  • Whoever prepared the drawing of the PzKpfw IV deliberately played around with the proportions to make the combination look more feasible
Whatever, the idea was clearly bollocks and the Germans were sensible to reject it.
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  #45  
Old 15 Oct 08, 12:05
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From the middle of 1944, the Pz. IV (and the Stug!) wasn´t longer a equal opponent to the axis tanks, especially the T-34/85, IS-Series and later the Pershing. But there wasn´t enough Panther´s to fill the gap if the production of the Pz. IV was stopped, so, the Pz. IV where produced until wars end.
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