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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War > Vietnam War Videos

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Vietnam War Videos Videos and documentaries about the Wars in Vietnam 1945-1975

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  #46  
Old 05 May 08, 10:44
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Originally Posted by Chippymick View Post
Altus

Thank you for the links. I found them very informative and much more detailed than anything I could find in Vietnamese.

Are you surprised?


[B] . official history of large PAVN units are . . . fundamentally an oral history constrained by ideology.

[I]In any case, I did not find any major contradiction between what Burstall said and the version in the 5th's history. . .

"I found them very informative and much more detailed than anything I could find in Vietnamese".

But did you read them??

********************

Physis – Gk. Origin

Logos – Symbol, or emblem.

Could well be a reference to a ‘state of origin’ footy jersey - . . the towering Queensland win in the inaugural State of Origin match.
Got it in one - good one, Mick.
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  #47  
Old 05 May 08, 11:01
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Originally Posted by Chippymick View Post
Are you surprised?
Well, not really. Ever since my first encounter with the Archive at Lubbock about ten years ago I realized that business minded capitalists had a much more detailed record keeping system (and access thereto) than ours.

Quote:
I appreciate that. It is fundamentally an oral history constrained by ideology.
Well, did you really expect state-funded official history projects would openly praise the enemy?

But seriously, I think PAVN publications that appeared after 2000 are much better than the older ones in term of factual informations and more objective assessments. I realize there still is a long way to go but it was a significant step nevertheless.

One thing that I found quite remarkable in this account was that they mentioned about "high casualties" twice in a relatively short passage. This is not so usual in PAVN official accounts.

Last edited by altus; 05 May 08 at 11:10..
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  #48  
Old 05 May 08, 11:20
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Originally Posted by altus View Post
Well, not really. Ever since my first encounter with the Archive at Lubbock about ten years ago I realized that business minded capitalists had a much more detailed record keeping system (and access thereto) than ours.

Well, did you really expect state-funded official history projects would openly praise the enemy?

But seriously, I think PAVN publications that appeared after 2000 are much better than the older ones in term of factual informations and more objective assessments. I realize there still is a long way to go but it was a significant step nevertheless.

One thing that I found quite remarkable in this account was that they mentioned about "high casualties" twice in a relatively short passage. This is not so usual in PAVN official accounts.
"business minded capitalists had a much more detailed record keeping system" - it's more to do with education.

A more reasoned response than previously.

" . . openly praise the enemy?"
It DID happen at the sharp end, on both sides.


Last edited by Dark Castor; 05 May 08 at 11:25..
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  #49  
Old 06 May 08, 23:39
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Looking at the information from the VC side of the battle I believe the VC were in force at the road(#52) leading into the rubber plantation and along the 2 km road toward Long Tan village. From this position they could observe the weir which was the only crossing point for APCs as the bridge had been blown up by them sometime before. From around that positon they effectively observed Nui Dat and the comings and going of the APCs which was there real objective.
It was reported that a field artillery piece had been used to shell Nui Dat and it was fired from this same area. B.Co found evidence of cart wheel tracks heading toward this area. Another thing is when D Company was mortared as they advanced toward the firing of 11 platoon, the compass bearing taken is plotted through the same area, and if they were 60 mm mortars that fired they were at maximum range.
The VC have said 'lure the tiger from the mountain' was the statergy and this appears to be the object of the shelling and mortaing on NuiDat on the 16th.
The V.C.having already observed the custom of the APC advance were going to hit them front center and rear along 2mile stretch of road from the weir to the village of Long Tan depending on the size of the force. Not a bad plan considering the road bends in a few places and it would be easy to seperate and cut off the reacting force with mines,rpg , mortar and machine gun fire.
Well after the battle commenced this position was eventually abandoned and ,soon after, the Apc advanced into the area from Nui Dat and encountered this same force, who were now on the move trying to close the back door on D.Co.


I visited Long Tan battle field in July 1997, at that time the whole rubber plantation was devoid of trees and due to be replanted . You could plainly see a slight depression or ripple in the ground were D Co. made there stand when all together before the APC's arrived, they were fortunate to be there as it was the lowest ground around and for the VC walking down into that defensive position in those weather conditions ,the Aussies would be hard to see . 11 platoon had no chance as they were on the high ground and all around them toward east, the lay of the land is convexed and rolls away . The VC could get in close and were in defilade to most of 11 Pt. small arms fire untill about 50 yds away.
I estimated the spot level height of nui Dat 2 (400 meters north) to be about the same as where 11 platoon made it's stand.

Great encounter battle ...lucky the Kiwis were in attendance
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  #50  
Old 07 May 08, 04:12
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Yes if the Kiwis hadn't been WAY BACK BEHIND, it could've had a different outcome.

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  #51  
Old 07 May 08, 04:17
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some say we fired at the wrong army anyway ...just kidding
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  #52  
Old 07 May 08, 05:24
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Talking

Seriously, apart from Roberts (APC) and a few dozen at the sharp end - there were moments that could've been a bit sticky without the Kiwi gunners.

So how did your Arty 'heroes' fare, when the medals were handed out?
No one sees them in the "action" roles - but we could've kissed our rear ends goodbye without them.

(Welcome aboard, ghost who walks).

Years ago, it was reported that a Vietnam vet facing the Dept of Veterans Affairs (DVA) inquisition, was asked by a (female) DVA panel member: "What's a long tan??" (probably conjuring up a lengthy time on the beach).

And the DVA letterhead stated "Saluting Their Service". (Of course they didn't specify what TYPE of salute they meant - most vets would consider it was the good old "one finger salute'. Because that was pretty much their approach).


On 18 Aug '69, 6 RAR / NZ (ANZAC) Bn erected a concrete cross at the battle site, with pipers playing the lament, surrounded by the Bn.
The brass plaque read:
In memory of those
members of D Coy and
3 Tp 1 APC Sqn who gave
their lives near this
spot during the battle
of Long Tan on 18th August 1966
Erected by 6 RAR / NZ
(ANZAC) Bn 18 Aug 69.

The cross was removed after the Aussies left Phuoc Tuy- and later recovered by Long Dat inhabitants - and placed in the Dong Nai province museum at Bien Hoa.

A replica cross was erected in the same spot by the Long Dat District Committee in 1989.

The Vietnamese of Long Dat have since placed their own inscription beside the cross. It reads (translated):
Socialist Republic of Vienam
The Ministry of Culture
Recognises: Historic Place
Battlefield: D445 of Ba Ria - Long Khanh Province contacted
6th Battalion of the Royal Australian Army
near Long Tan village on 18-8-1966


Last edited by Dark Castor; 07 May 08 at 06:21..
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  #53  
Old 07 May 08, 09:58
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Grey Man

"Great encounter battle ...lucky the Kiwis were in attendance "

I second the motion.

Cheers

Mick
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  #54  
Old 10 May 08, 19:07
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the V.C. plan ?

MAYBE... If this was their plan , then the APC's were fortunate to be held back by Jackson ..... The V.C. were waiting here all night (16th) and the next 2 days to hit the reaction force of APC's...

D. Company was not the 1st objective of the V.C. it was the APC's they wanted ...

click on the map and have a look see.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg The V.C. plan at long tan.JPG (290.5 KB, 19 views)
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  #55  
Old 10 May 08, 21:53
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So if they "planned" it so well - and the APCs charged in - what went wrong, that they had their butts kicked so severely? Even with superior numbers.

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  #56  
Old 12 May 08, 04:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Castor View Post
So if they "planned" it so well - and the APCs charged in - what went wrong, that they had their butts kicked so severely? Even with superior numbers.

The v.c. expected a quick reation force of APC"s to come out and investigate immedietly (night of 16/17th)when the bomdbardment occured .... this was what they planned for, thinking that would happen ... Those V.C. who were armed to the teeth with RPG ,57mm recoiless rifle machine guns and mines were alredy set up at the enterance of the plantation (R Bo') on R 52 the road leading to Long Tan village.
The stratergy in setting up in this position was to observe, the ONLY crossing point of the river for heavy vehicles, (Sui da Bang river was in flood during August monsoon weather) and to watch the Long Tan road for movement .
The mortaring of Nui Dat was to draw out the armour into an ambush at the only place they could be sure the APC'S would come from .
Jackson, aware the V.C. were likely to attack Nui Dat in force wanted all avilable assets on base ready, and he sent out B.Co on foot patrol the next day as the only reaction force ......Hardly an reaction at all really, consider
ing... The V.C. report that Aussie units were seen in the plantation on .the 17th...
but left them alone as they had lain an ambush for the APC's ,watching for their approach from Nui Dat to the Weir. Any contact could give away their position , so......when the battle suddenly erupted at the other end of the plantation , these fellows were still in an undiscovered position, set up to hit any futher force that could come to D.Co's aid ...
Jackson delayed so long it was thought by the V.C. that, twice having fired mortars from this same position during the engagement , it was now time to break the ambush for the apc and finish off D .co who were now congregated in one place . They broke ambush and moved out of the area to assist in the destruction of D Co. at the same time the Apc's were despatched from Nui Dat.
Had they left a small observation squad at the ambush position , things may have been different for D445 , who really got a hammering from Adrian Roberts APC's for the error of their ways.
The evidence supports that The V.C. were waiting there to engage .
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  #57  
Old 13 May 08, 07:39
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Grey Ghost.

While an armour-centric ambush theory sounds plausible at first, upon reflection, I think not so much.

The VC at Long Tan were not armed to the teeth with anti-armour weapons. The RPG-2’s were used in large numbers but that is not surprising given the VC’s dual use of them as anti-personnel weapons.

The 57mm RCL’s were the premier anti-armour weapon available to the VC. How many were actually available for use at Long Tan? How many were really required to effectively ambush the tracks?

If mines were laid at the obvious crossing point on the Sui Da Bang, why were they lifted?

I don’t think it logically stacks up.

Regards


Mick
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  #58  
Old 13 May 08, 10:08
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Exclamation B52 chopper shot down by NVA glorious gunners

A word from Normie Rowe - entertainer and Vietnam vet.

After he read the NVA 5th Division "100 battles 100 victories" Long Tan story (post#38 from altus), he gave permission to post this story:-

"It reiterates an experience I had when I visited the Hanoi War Memorial in 1995. At that time, travel from Oz to Vn was not as regular as it is today. Many things had remained fresh in the minds of all who experienced the “American War” (as they call it) from both sides first hand.

I was travelling with members of the Professor Fred Hollows Foundation, who were very cautious not to upset political sensibilities; especially when a crew from "A Current Affair" was travelling with us also. As I curiously searched what was sign-posted as “The wreckage of a B52 Bomber” I found a number of discrepancies, and thought, “What a shame not to keep remembrance sites accurate”. The memories of these soldiers, our enemy, who fought as much for what they believe in as did we, was sullied by political propaganda.

I was severely admonished by our attached Commissar for pointing out that B52’s were pure jets, and did not require the propellers, nor helicopter rotors on display as bomber parts. Surely it would suffice and therefore be honest to say that this is a mound of parts of aircraft shot down by the “Glorious Gunners of the Republic of Vietnam”.

I always thought that our historic depictions should always be "warts and all" because to be found out in a lie later, would be to desecrate the memories of ordinary blokes who were, and still are, asked to do extra-ordinary things. "


Norman J Rowe, AM
www.normierowe.com

Normie Rowe was (and is still) an entertainer - Australia’s King of Pop in 1968. He had a number of big hits, including “It Ain’t Necessarily So”, and “Que Sera Sera”. He was also a soldier himself - a conscript - and APC commander, A Squadron, 3rd Cavalry Regiment, giving up his career at the height of his popularity to serve in Vietnam.

AM - Order of Australia
Citation: AM - FOR SERVICE TO THE COMMUNITY, TO VETERANS AND TO THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.
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  #59  
Old 13 May 08, 13:41
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Originally Posted by Dark Castor View Post
After he read the NVA 5th Division "100 battles 100 victories" Long Tan story
But note that that book does not list Long Tân as a victory. And, the atmosphere around these issues in Vietnam after 2000 has become much more relaxed compared to, say, in the 90s. Even the People's Army newspaper now discusses our tactical failures and losses on a much more frequent basis.
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  #60  
Old 13 May 08, 23:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippymick View Post
Grey Ghost.

While an armour-centric ambush theory sounds plausible at first, upon reflection, I think not so much.

The VC at Long Tan were not armed to the teeth with anti-armour weapons. The RPG-2’s were used in large numbers but that is not surprising given the VC’s dual use of them as anti-personnel weapons.

The 57mm RCL’s were the premier anti-armour weapon available to the VC. How many were actually available for use at Long Tan? How many were really required to effectively ambush the tracks?

If mines were laid at the obvious crossing point on the Sui Da Bang, why were they lifted?

I don’t think it logically stacks up.

Regards


Mick
Mick,
The cache of VC weapons found the next day on the battle field was tiny compared with the casualties that were substained by the VC, in fact the VC policed up 99% of their wounded and 99% of their weapons before leaving the area. That they combed the battlefield for personal is a tested to by the account of one of the wounded diggers who was left behind ,was about to be dragged away by a VC , he shouted at the VC who got a fright and he took off.
There where quite a few RPGs and a recoiless rifle among the small cache ...82 mm & 60mm mortar ammo was found... The VC were armed better than the poor Aussies thats for sure.
It is my guess that if they used mines it could be further along the Long Tan road to deal with a quick reation force coming the other way,or along their escape route which may have been in another direction than the one they eventually took after they abandonned the failed ambush site. As I said before they policed up everything maybe mines included .
The VC ambush area was shelled from Nui Dat early on in the battle but I have not been able to find any evidence if it was hit again later during the battle .
Before & after the night attack on Nui Dat 16/17th this area of the plantation was not patrolled by any Aussie Company tasked with finding the VC. There may have been a Jap field artillery piece available in the area as well as recoiless rifles (numbers unknown.)
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