HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Vietnam War > Vietnam War Videos

Notices and Announcements

Vietnam War Videos Videos and documentaries about the Wars in Vietnam 1945-1975

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 03 May 08, 09:14
Dark Castor's Avatar
Dark Castor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
To say nothing of the early reluctance of the RAAF chopppers to get in harm's way.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03 May 08, 10:19
altus's Avatar
altus altus is offline
Major General
Viet_Nam
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the wires.
Posts: 2,861
altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippymick View Post
275 had D Company 'by the belt' and D445 were about to launch a flanking attack that probably would have succeeded. In a fluke of timing, the tracks drove through D445 as it was forming up and smashed them.

With the knockout punch from D445 dismembered by the APC's and 275 badly mauled by artillery the VC commander sensibly called it off. It was a very near run thing indeed.
Well, the account of this part of the battle in the history of the 5th is pretty close, only with a rather different wording, I guess Also, they didn't separate the part before the arrival of Australian reinforcements from the one after.

FYI, that book lists the attack on D Company as a failure. They also considered it an maneuver attack not an assault. But this, I assume, you'd already known.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03 May 08, 10:35
Chippymick's Avatar
Chippymick Chippymick is offline
Banned
Australia
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,498
Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0]
Thanks Altus.

The debate here centres around whether or not it was an ambush or a 'meeting engagement'. Which I think means the same thing.

Any clue as to whether or not the mortar attack on the base that preceded the battle was a night early?

Cheers

Mick
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03 May 08, 10:54
altus's Avatar
altus altus is offline
Major General
Viet_Nam
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the wires.
Posts: 2,861
altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippymick View Post
Any clue as to whether or not the mortar attack on the base that preceded the battle was a night early?
I've found only one sentence related to this:

Quote:
In two days, 16 and 17, local forces and the Division's recon team used mortar to continuously attack Núi Đất, formed earth barricades and used mines to disrupt traffic on Road 52, forcing Australian troops to move out to relieve Long Tân so we could destroy them.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03 May 08, 20:12
Chippymick's Avatar
Chippymick Chippymick is offline
Banned
Australia
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,498
Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0]
Thanks a lot Altus.

The blocking of route 50 went completely un-noticed.

What you have done is totally discredit Comrade Burstall. Who if he had any decency should now take the bottle of Johnny Walker, the mess Webley and do the right thing.

Cheers


Mick
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04 May 08, 06:45
altus's Avatar
altus altus is offline
Major General
Viet_Nam
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the wires.
Posts: 2,861
altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippymick View Post
What you have done is totally discredit Comrade Burstall.
I'm not very familiar with Burstall vs. The Rest debate. Can you please point out what issue that Burstall wrote got debunked by information cited by me? The mentioned 5th history book does at least confirm his PAVN casualties figures.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04 May 08, 13:01
Boonierat's Avatar
Boonierat Boonierat is offline
Marshal of ACG
South_Vietnam
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Model Forum Group Build 
 
Real Name: Stephane Moutin-Luyat
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Semi-retired
Posts: 15,935
Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Well, whatever the exact identity of the unit involved, it seems we can all agree now that there was an NVA battalion present, be it from the 45th Regiment or the D605.

Last edited by Boonierat; 05 May 08 at 00:55..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04 May 08, 19:32
altus's Avatar
altus altus is offline
Major General
Viet_Nam
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the wires.
Posts: 2,861
altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200]
Here is the passage on Long Tân in the History of the 5th Division (courtesy of quansuvn.net), provided as-is.

===
In the area of operation of Rgt. 5, we swiftly studied and prepared forces for an assault on Australian troops based at Núi Đất.

In August, 1966, a team charged with the study on Australian troops at Núi Đất - Bà Rịa, headed by Comrade Trần Minh Tâm, Division's Deputy Commander, personally went to Long Tân to get know the terrain, to learn operation patterns of Australian troops and to settle out a coordination plan with local armed forces of Bà Rịa.

After many days of observations of Australian troops' activities in surrounding areas in Long Đất, Đất Đỏ, on August 10, 1966 the Joint Command of the battle, comprising Comrade Trần Minh Tâm, Comrade Đặng Hữu Thuấn (Commander of the Bà Rịa provincial forces) worked out a combat plan aiming at destructing the Australian battalion in the Long Tân area.

In order to implement the combat plan, we used Rgt 5 and Bn 445 Bà Rịa to set up an ambush on the section of Route 52 near the rubber plantation Long Tân, on a front of two kilometers long. Bn 2/Rgt 5 and a company of Bn 445, additionally equipped with B40s (RPG-2) and one ĐKZ 57 (recoiless rifle), were placed to the south and northwest of the junction between Ḅ Route and Route 52 with the task to block the leading elements of the enemy formation. Bn 3 was placed 800 meters to the northwest of Route 52 with the task of assaulting into the frontal section at Thất Pagoda. Bn 1, reinforced with two companies of Bn 445, was placed 800 meters north of Route 52 with the task of blocking the enemy rear elements, as well as joining with Bn 3 in order to destroy the enemy on the decisive section.

To provide support to the battle, we allocated a transport force of 80 comrades from Vơ Thị Sáu Company and the Division's field surgical team commanded by Comrade Hai Phong and Comrade Nguyễn Đ́nh Kính, directly supporting Rgt 5. On August 15, all preparation tasks were completed.

In two days, 16 and 17, local forces and the Division's recon team used mortar to continuously attack Núi Đất, formed earth barricades and used mines to disrupt traffic on Road 52, forcing Australian troops to move out to relieve Long Tân so we could destroy them. At 0200 on August 17, all elements of Rgt 5 were deployed to starting positions, ready for combat.

On August 18, from 0600 to 1500, our observation posts did not detect signs of the enemy forces moving out. The battle commander Trần Minh Tâm projected the enemy might not be going to move out, therefore ordered our observation post to temporarily withdraw to the position of Bn 2 while telling all our attack groups to maintain formation.

But at 1530, the recon team of Bn 2 reported sighting one enemy company secretly moving toward the battalion's position, at a distance of 650 meters. Behind them, at around 1500 meters, there were approximately two other companies and four tanks-armored vehicles moving along Route 52 toward the combat site.

We waited for the enemy to get closer, opening fire at a distance of only ten meters from our line, killing eight enemies on spot.

The battle became intense, Australian troops took advantage of the firepower on two armored vehicles, pouring bullets into Bn 2's charging formation .

At that moment, from the observation position, commander of the recon company Lê Hữu Nghĩa courageously pushed forward under enemy fire, using RPG-2 to destroy the leading armored vehicle, allowing the Regiment's recoiless rifle team to destroy the second.

Charging formations of Bn 2 maneuvered to a close combat with Australian troops using assault rifles, RPGs and grenades. Australian troops in panic retreated to the edge of the rubber plantation, got into our minefield and lose nearly ten men right on the spot. After 30 minutes of combat, Bn 2 inflicted heavy casualties on an enemy platoon.

On the directions of Bn 3 and Bn 1, our troops started the assault on hearing gunshots, but due to sudden torrential rains, all attacking directions encountered difficulties maneuvering. The enemy began using artillery to lay blocking fire while their rear elements split into two wings along Route 52 in an attempt to a flanking attack at Bn 2.

At 1600, Bn 3 and a part of Bn 1 attacked the enemy in the decisive section. Australian troops concentrated in defense, directing heavy artillery fire on our assaulting formations as well as on rear elements of Bn 1 and Bn 445, at the same time using firepower on armored vehicles to fire furiously into Bn 3's formation.


1630, all our assualting directions encountered difficulties due to enemy suppressing artillery and firepower, we could not manage to encircle the enemy battalion, men of Bn 1, Bn 2 got high casualties. 1700, the battle command post ordered all units to withdraw to regrouping position.

As a first maneuvering-ambushing battle aimed at destroying Australian troops, a new combat adversaries on the battlefield, we displayed shortcomings in recon and planning for troops to start assaulting from too far distances, resulting in the inability to encircle and swiftly destroy enemy battalion.

We experienced high casualties, with 32 KIAs and 60 WIAs. However, the Battle of Long Tân had an important meaning: For the first time on the battlefield, we destroyed a company of Australian troops, a force considered highly elite, anti-guerrilla experts frequently bragged about by the enemy.
====

Last edited by altus; 04 May 08 at 19:34..
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05 May 08, 07:23
Chippymick's Avatar
Chippymick Chippymick is offline
Banned
Australia
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,498
Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0]
I really appreciate you posting that Altus.

The view from the other side is of course very different.

Every Commander at Long Tan kept a diary and signals log. You’ve seen the 6RAR logs. Here are the logs for the tracks and guns.

APC Commanders Diary
http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM...WM95-2-6-6.pdf

and here (After Action by APC Commander report starts page 147)
http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM...WM95-2-6-7.pdf


The relevant diaries for 105 field battery can be found here:
http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM...M95-3-5-42.pdf
Signals logs
http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM...M95-3-5-43.pdf
Resume of Long Tan starts on page 147
http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/AWM...M95-3-5-44.pdf

Terry Burstall suggested that 6 RAR was ambushed at Long Tan.
The arguments for and against can be found here:

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~marshalle/lt/lt.htm

Regards

Mick
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05 May 08, 07:34
Dark Castor's Avatar
Dark Castor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking







As always these (100 battles, 100 victories) "after-battle reports" provided us all with some badly needed laughs. "Hanoi Hannah" provided most of them on a regular basis, and we would cheerfully tune in to listen to her latest drivel.



But this fantasy just posted is a classic. There are so many errors that obviously the author was smoking something when it was written - and it wasn't "333s". There are enough written histories - and graves - around Long Tan that give the true picture.

I would really like to attend some of (North) Vietnam's stand-up comedy clubs to hear more like this. Hilarious. Keep 'em coming.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #41  
Old 05 May 08, 08:36
thejester's Avatar
thejester thejester is offline
Lieutenant General
Australia
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Stunt Headquarters
Posts: 3,324
thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300] thejester is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Castor View Post
Lex McAualay says: "Yes, NVA were captured and prisoners said NVA were there - but so far no unit identification is known."

The Aust official history bureaucrats STILL aren't that helpful to vets - I think they have the same approach as QMs: "Yes we have it - but why should we give it to you? It's OURS."
Who hold the documents? AWM?
__________________
Colonel Summers' widely quoted critique of US strategy in the Vietnam War is having a modest vogue...it is poor history, poor strategy, and poor Clausewitz to boot - Robet Komer, Survival, 27:2, p. 94.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05 May 08, 08:53
Dark Castor's Avatar
Dark Castor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Thumbs down

Yes - but there were obstacles from the history unit, to prevent access to it. Of course they deny that. If you were one of the favoured few - staff officer, etc - then you could get to it.

(Think BUREAUCRAT).

I'm still reluctant to pass on anything for that reason.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05 May 08, 09:09
altus's Avatar
altus altus is offline
Major General
Viet_Nam
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the wires.
Posts: 2,861
altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200] altus is walking in the light [200]
Hi, Mick,

Thank you for the links. I found them very informative and much more detailed than anything I could find in Vietnamese.

Note that official history of large PAVN units such as the 5th are written 20, 30 or more years after the events, most usually by people who weren't present at the battlefields, and underwent an extensive "reassessment" process. I'm not sure if the 275th had their own history book, but if they had I presume there would be more detailed operational details.

In any case, I did not find any major contradiction between what Burstall said and the version in the 5th's history. I think both present the battle as a planned ambush.

BTW, what is a "physiological victory"?

Quote:
The VC would have achieved a great military victory, inflicting high casualties on the Australians, more importantly the physiological victory and political drama could have seen the Australians going home and leaving the USA without a major political supporter. The war would have been totally different.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05 May 08, 09:18
Boonierat's Avatar
Boonierat Boonierat is offline
Marshal of ACG
South_Vietnam
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
Summer Campaign 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Model Forum Group Build 
 
Real Name: Stephane Moutin-Luyat
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Semi-retired
Posts: 15,935
Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Boonierat has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Probably a typo with psychological
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05 May 08, 09:31
Chippymick's Avatar
Chippymick Chippymick is offline
Banned
Australia
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,498
Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0] Chippymick is a balanced individual [0]
Altus

Thank you for the links. I found them very informative and much more detailed than anything I could find in Vietnamese.

Are you surprised?

Note that official history of large PAVN units such as the 5th are written 20, 30 or more years after the events, most usually by people who weren't present at the battlefields, and underwent an extensive "reassessment" process. I'm not sure if the 275th had their own history book, but if they had I presume there would be more detailed operational details.

I appreciate that. It is fundamentally an oral history constrained by ideology.

In any case, I did not find any major contradiction between what Burstall said and the version in the 5th's history. I think both present the battle as a planned ambush.

They may have planned an ambush, but the resulting battle was a classic “meeting engagement” And no I’m not going to play 64 questions on the definition

BTW, what is a "physiological victory"?

Physis – Gk. Origin

Logos – Symbol, or emblem.

Could well be a reference to a ‘state of origin’ footy jersey. The author is obviously using a poetic device to compare the victory at Long Tan with the towering Queensland win in the inaugural State of Origin match.

Or it could just be a typo. You decide

Regards


Mick
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:35.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.