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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > War in Iraq

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War in Iraq Operations Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom and ongoing operations in the region.

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  #61  
Old 12 Sep 07, 18:13
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"Canadians Americans too?

and so are Mexicans!"


As my other half is a Canadian and she would wag her finger at you for that one lol
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  #62  
Old 12 Sep 07, 18:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
No I'm not saying that. I'm just pointing out Germany declared war on you, which made its threat more than a mere "consideration" or future possibility. While the war in Iraq according to your earlier posts was based on you considering it a future threat.
While Saddam Hussein may not have issued a formal declaration of war on the USA in the aftermath of 9/11...he did have these things to say over the twelve years leading up to OIF...

"We will chase [Americans] to every corner at all times. No high tower of steel will protect them against the fire of truth."
--Saddam Hussein, Baghdad Radio, February 8, 1991
"[America] will not be excluded from the operations and explosions of the Arab and Muslim mujahidin and all the honest strugglers in the world."
--Iraq News Agency, January 30, 1991 (State-controlled)
"What remains for Bush and his accomplices in crime is to understand that they are personally responsible for their crime. The Iraqi people will pursue them for this crime, even if they leave office and disappear into oblivion. There is no doubt they will understand what we mean if they know what revenge means to the Arabs."
--Baghdad Radio, February 6, 1991 (State-controlled)
"Every Iraqi child, woman, and old man knows how to take revenge...They will avenge the pure blood that has been shed no matter how long it takes."
--Baghdad Domestic Service, February 15, 1991 (State-controlled)
Iraq Masses Troops Against Kuwait, October 1994
"Does [America] realize the meaning of every Iraqi becoming a missile that can cross to countries and cities?"
Saddam Hussein, September 29, 1994
"[O]ur striking arm will reach [America, Britain and Saudi Arabia] before they know what hit them."
--Al-Qadisiyah, October 6, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)
"One chemical weapon fired in a moment of despair could cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands."
--Al-Quds al-Arabi, October 12, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)
Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996
"[The U.S.] should send more coffins to Saudi Arabia, because no one can guess what the future has in store."
--Saddam Hussein, Iraqi Radio, June 27, 1996
"Oh sons of Arabs and the Arab Gulf, rebel against the foreigner...Take revenge for your dignity, holy places, security, interests and exalted values."
--Saddam Hussein, January 5, 1999
"What is required now is to deal strong blows to U.S. and British interests. These blows should be strong enough to make them feel that their interests are indeed threatened not only by words but also in deeds."
--Al-Qadisiyah, February 27, 1999 (State-controlled newspaper)
U.S.S. Cole Bombing, October 12, 2000
"[Iraqis] should intensify struggle and jihad in all fields and by all means..."
--Iraq TV, October 22, 2000 (State-controlled)
The Attacks of September 11
"The United States reaps the thorns its rulers have planted in the world."
--Saddam Hussein, September 12, 2001
[I]"t is possible to turn to biological attack, where a small can, not bigger than the size of a hand, can be used to release viruses that affect everything..."
--Babil, September 20, 2001 (State-controlled newspaper)
"The United States must get a taste of its own poison..."
--Babil, October 8, 2001
"The real perpetrators [of September 11] are within the collapsed buildings."
--Alif-Ba, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)
"[September 11 was] God's punishment."
--Al-Iktisadi, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)
"If the attacks of September 11 cost the lives of 3,000 civilians, how much will the size of losses in 50 states within 100 cities if it were attacked in the same way in which New York and Washington were? What would happen if hundreds of planes attacked American cities?"
--Al-Rafidayn, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

Last edited by The Doctor; 12 Sep 07 at 18:42..
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  #63  
Old 12 Sep 07, 18:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
No I'm not saying that.
If you agree that we would have fought Germany anyway, what makes that any different from Iraq? Would you criticize the US for fighting Germany under those circumstances (i.e., if Germany had not declared war but the US fought them anyway), if that had been the historical case?

Quote:
I'm just pointing out Germany declared war on you, which made its threat more than a mere "consideration" or future possibility. While the war in Iraq according to your earlier posts was based on you considering it a future threat.
And you have also pointed out that you believe we would have fought Germany anyway, so what's the difference then?

I don't understand how you could defend the Nazis when your country was one liberated...oh, wait, your country voluntarily allied themselves with the Nazis. Nevermind.
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  #64  
Old 12 Sep 07, 20:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
It wasn't Iraq that attacked you...
How convenient that you forgot the 10 years of Iraq being in violation of the terms to end GW1, numerous U.N resolutions AND shooting at U.S and coatlition aircraft for over 10 years. Additionally, wasn't Saddam also responsible for an attempted assasination of G.H.W. Bush? Plus as an added bonus (literally) he was supporting terrorist organizations by allowing them to train and equiping them?

I really think you need to go back a review your history.
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  #65  
Old 12 Sep 07, 20:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piero1971 View Post
aren't Canadians Americans too?

and so are Mexicans!
If you are saying they are from the America's then yes they are. But, historically when anyone said American it meant the U.S. If you ask a Mexican or Canadian what they are they would say "Mexican" or "Canadian". Only one with an agenda to allow illegal immigrants to flow accross national borders without check would say something like that. Say, like someone who hates American pride, power and it as a nation.
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  #66  
Old 13 Sep 07, 02:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerVI67 View Post
How convenient that you forgot the 10 years of Iraq being in violation of the terms to end GW1, numerous U.N resolutions AND shooting at U.S and coatlition aircraft for over 10 years.
Regarding shooting at coalition aircraft, it happened over Iraq after you sliced up Iraq's airspace and patrolled it day by day, not over Texas or New York. So what the Iraqis did was truly self-defense.

I won't go into the issue of resolutions because that was long debated in another thread in the past.
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  #67  
Old 13 Sep 07, 03:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
If you agree that we would have fought Germany anyway, what makes that any different from Iraq?
You had Iraq contained, Germany was not. Iraq was not engaged in any conventional campaign that could have increased its clout, Germany was. Iraq was militarily a weakling, Germany was not. So Iraq being a threat to you was not believable. Being a threat to your interests or a stumbling block to your plans that was believable, but it didn't make your attack self-defense but a conscious, well pondered and well prepared interest-based decision. A war of choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
I don't understand how you could defend the Nazis when your country was one liberated...oh, wait, your country voluntarily allied themselves with the Nazis. Nevermind.
What do you mean I defend the Nazis?
Yes my country allied with Germany after the Western allies collapsed or were unable to assist us and we lost a lot of provinces. We decided not to ally with the USSR.
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  #68  
Old 13 Sep 07, 07:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial
I won't go into the issue of resolutions because that was long debated in another thread in the past.
Of course not.

Continuous defiance of the ceasefire & the continuing state of war was a mighty inconvenient fact.

It didn't help ya then...

It don't help you now.

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  #69  
Old 13 Sep 07, 09:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
You had Iraq contained, Germany was not. Iraq was not engaged in any conventional campaign that could have increased its clout, Germany was. Iraq was militarily a weakling, Germany was not. So Iraq being a threat to you was not believable. Being a threat to your interests or a stumbling block to your plans that was believable, but it didn't make your attack self-defense but a conscious, well pondered and well prepared interest-based decision. A war of choice.
The underlying principle is no different. If fighting Germany, even though they did not attack us and (hypothetically) did not declare war on us would have been justified, then so was Iraq. The particulars of the situation do not change the underlying principle. You see, this is my point: These are the decisions that you have no say in! The US has the right to defend itself. If our decisions regarding our national defense are subject to "review and approval" by third-rate nations like Romania, then it is no right of self-defense at all. We must be allowed to make our own decisions regarding self-defense, just like Romania was allowed to make their own decisions to ally with Nazis.
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  #70  
Old 13 Sep 07, 12:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral View Post

Of course not.

Continuous defiance of the ceasefire & the continuing state of war was a mighty inconvenient fact.

It didn't help ya then...

It don't help you now.
And the US effort at the UN producing no resolution to authorise the use of force and the toppling of the regime was a mighty inconvenient fact for your argument.
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Old 13 Sep 07, 13:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
You see, this is my point: These are the decisions that you have no say in!
Are you under the impression that any of our opinions in this forum are in any way interfering with US decision making processes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
The US has the right to defend itself.
Of course, just like Rome defended "itself" in Britannia....

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
If our decisions regarding our national defense are subject to "review and approval" by third-rate nations like Romania, then it is no right of self-defense at all.
You don't need approval but that doesn't make your decisions non-reviewable.
I don't think Romania is a third-rate country but depends on what you're basing your rating system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
We must be allowed to make our own decisions regarding self-defense, just like Romania was allowed to make their own decisions to ally with Nazis.
But that didn't stop you or anybody else from criticising Romania's decision, did it? Same in your case.
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  #72  
Old 13 Sep 07, 13:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
And the US effort at the UN producing no resolution to authorise the use of force and the toppling of the regime was a mighty inconvenient fact for your argument.
Member States were authorized to use force 1990...
Quote:

S/RES/0678 (1990)
29 November 1990

RESOLUTION 678 (1990)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 2963rd meeting on 29 November 1990
The Security Council,

Recalling, and reaffirming its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August (1990), 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of of 29 October 1990 and 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990.

Noting that, despite all efforts by the United Nations, Iraq refuses to comply with its obligation to implement resolution 660 (1990) and the above-mentioned subsequent relevant resolutions, in flagrant contempt of the Security Council,

Mindful of its duties and responsibilities under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance and preservation of international peace and security,

Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions,

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,

1. Demands that Iraq comply fully with resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions, and decides, while maintaining all its decisions, to allow Iraq one final opportunity, as a pause of goodwil, to do so;

2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as set forth in paragraph 1 above, the above-mentioned resolutions, to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area...
The authority of UNSCR 687 was never rescinded and its authorization for Member States to use force was specifically recalled in UNSCR 1441...
Quote:

S/RES/1441 (2002)
8 November 2002

RESOLUTION 1441 (2002)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 4464th meeting on 8 November 2002

The Security Council,

Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,

Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,

Further recalling that its resolution 687 (1991) imposed obligations on Iraq as a necessary step for achievement of its stated objective of restoring international peace and security in the area,

Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council's repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein...

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq's failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991)...

4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and or 12 below;

5. Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC's or the IAEA's choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the Council 60 days thereafter...
Iraq was given three months of last chances to cooperate immediately, unconditionally and unequivocally with the terms of UNSCR 687. They chose to not comply immediately, unconditionally and unequivocally.

In his 7 March 2003 address to the Security Council, Hans Blix said…

“Initial difficulties raised by the Iraqi side about helicopters and aerial surveillance planes operating in the "no-fly" zones were overcome…”


Iraq was not allowed to place any conditions on UNMOVIC aircraft. UNSCR 1441 required their compliance to be unconditional and unequivocal. About a week after this address, Iraqi jets attempted to engage U-2 aircraft monitoring UNMOVIC.

Blix also stated that Iraq wasn’t providing any new information…

“Iraq, with a highly developed administrative system, should be able to provide more documentary evidence about its proscribed weapons programs. Only a few new such documents have come to light so far and been handed over since we began inspections. It was a disappointment that Iraq's declaration of the 7th of December did not bring new documentary evidence…”


Since Iraq was not providing documentary evidence…They were making their technical people available for unhindered interviews…Or were they? 10 out of 38 are a bit better than 25%...

“While the Iraqi side seems to have encouraged interviewees not to request the presence of Iraqi officials, local minders or the taping of the interviews, conditions ensuring the absence of undue influences are difficult to attain inside Iraq. Interviews outside the country might provide such assurance. It is our intention to request such interviews shortly.

Nevertheless, despite remaining shortcomings, interviews are useful. Since we started requesting interviews, 38 individuals were asked for private interviews, of which 10 accepted under our terms -- seven of these during the last week…”


Three months after Iraq was ordered to come into immediate and unconditional compliance, Mr. Blix said there had been little progress…

“On 14 February, I reported to the council that the Iraqi side had become more active in taking and proposing steps which potentially might shed new light on unresolved disarmament issues. Even a week ago, when the current quarterly report was finalized, there were still relatively little tangible progress to note…”


Then there were those pesky al-Samoud II missiles…which were developed while the inspectors were away (1999-2002)…Iraq resisted destroying them. And at the time of this speech, Iraq had halted their destruction.

“While during our meetings in Baghdad, the Iraqi side tried to persuade us that the Al Samoud 2 missiles they have declared fall within the permissible range set by the Security Council. The calculations of an international panel of experts led us to the opposite conclusion. Iraq has since accepted that these missiles and associated items be destroyed and has started the process of destruction under our supervision.

The destruction undertaken constitutes a substantial measure of disarmament, indeed the first since the middle of the 1990s. We are not watching the breaking of toothpicks; lethal weapons are being destroyed.

However, I must add that the report I have today tells me that no destruction work has continued today. I hope this is a temporary break…”


Iraq was required to cooperate immediately and without conditions…

“One can hardly avoid the impression that after a period of somewhat reluctant cooperation, there's been an acceleration of initiatives from the Iraqi side since the end of January. This is welcome. But the value of these measures must be soberly judged by how many question marks they actually succeed in straightening out.

This is not yet clear.

Against this background, the question is now asked whether Iraq has cooperated, "immediately, unconditionally and actively," with UNMOVIC, as is required under Paragraph 9 of Resolution 1441. The answers can be seen from the factor descriptions that I have provided…

It is obvious that while the numerous initiatives which are now taken by the Iraqi side with a view to resolving some longstanding, open disarmament issues can be seen as active or even proactive, these initiatives three to four months into the new resolution cannot be said to constitute immediate cooperation. Nor do they necessarily cover all areas of relevance…”


Hans Blix said that as of March 7, 2003, Iraq’s actions “cannot be said to constitute immediate cooperation. Nor do they necessarily cover all areas of relevance”; and that it was “not yet clear” whether or not Saddam was cooperating…3 months after he was given one last chance to immediately, unconditionally and actively" comply with UNSCR 1441 and all or its predecessors.

Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was not allowed to be even a little bit dangerous. They were not allowed to retain even a minimal capability to develop or use chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. They were not allowed to retain even the slightest capability to deliver those weapons. They were not allowed to conduct any research into such weapons or delivery systems.

How many "one last chance(s)" did UNSCR 1441 provide?

Next?

Last edited by The Doctor; 13 Sep 07 at 13:42..
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Old 13 Sep 07, 14:08
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I think Imperials point about comprisons between U.S.self defense against Nazi Germany and Iraq are completely irroneous. However I also think using the UN directives as a direct reason for OIF are not exactly water tight either. If and I do mean if 9/11had not happened and more importantly if the FBI had for example caught them beforehand and stopped it (ie the intent was there and so therefore the threat to the US was there with or without a successful 9/11.) Would America and its allies have invaded Iraq in the first decade of the 21st century? I seriously doubt it. Why because without 9/11 they never would have had the mandate to do it because the UN directive without 9/11 would never have given Bush W. enough credibilty to launch OIF. Afghanistan probably because Clinton looked seriously into that during the late
90's but not Iraq.
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Old 13 Sep 07, 14:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
I think Imperials point about comprisons between U.S.self defense against Nazi Germany and Iraq are completely irroneous.
I was not the one to compare US action against Nazi Germany with US action against Iraq, Omega Strike brought that to the discussion.
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Old 13 Sep 07, 14:46
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Doc, I already replied to the arguments you rephrase here in the thread where we talked about UN and Iraq. I'll try and see if I can find it, let's not fill this thread with old arguments....
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