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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > War in Iraq

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War in Iraq Operations Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom and ongoing operations in the region.

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  #31  
Old 11 Sep 07, 18:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
There was a comment that no one offers America help when she is in trouble.I know for a fact that is not true. In reaction to 9/11 I remember my government offered our rescue and dog teams to help the nyfd look for survivors, ithink the Germans did too.
Sorry for not locating the source, but as I recall there were elements of the German Luftwaffe that had leased an old US Air Force base in New Mexico, and had been training there for some time. Immediately following the attacks of 11 Sep 2001 the Germans offered their services to the defense of the US under the NATO "our allies are being attacked" clause. Tactical aircraft sporting Iron Crosses were seen on patrol above US cities. That freed up US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps air assets to be deployed to Afghanistan. So if it hasn't been said before, allow me to offer a hearty danke to the good folks of Germany who came through in a pinch.
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  #32  
Old 11 Sep 07, 18:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Yes you are asking countries to behave and do certain things internally.
Yes, we're asking them to behave like civilized human beings instead of barbaric animals. I know it's pointless, but it's polite to ask.

Quote:
Then if they're resisting your demands...
Yes, our totally unreasonable demand that they not attack or threaten us.

Quote:
...there's a gradual process of influence and coercion that kicks in.
Is that before or after the black helicopters take Sasquatch to the alien spacecraft for examination? Put your tinfoil hat back on, your thoughts are being controlled!

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That's how things will look like after a few centuries of detachment sifted the events.
Prophesy, brother Nostradamus!
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  #33  
Old 11 Sep 07, 19:35
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Sorry for not locating the source, but as I recall there were elements of the German Luftwaffe that had leased an old US Air Force base in New Mexico, and had been training there for some time. Immediately following the attacks of 11 Sep 2001 the Germans offered their services to the defense of the US under the NATO "our allies are being attacked" clause. Tactical aircraft sporting Iron Crosses were seen on patrol above US cities. That freed up US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps air assets to be deployed to Afghanistan. So if it hasn't been said before, allow me to offer a hearty danke to the good folks of Germany who came through in a pinch.
Actually it's a functioning USAF Base,Holloman AFB ,in Alamogordo,NM.It is also the home of the F-117's.I've met some of the German troops from there.
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  #34  
Old 11 Sep 07, 19:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Yes you are asking countries to behave and do certain things internally. Then if they're resisting your demands, there's a gradual process of influence and coercion that kicks in. Eventually if things go on the same path and that country has some value for your interests, you'll change its regime militarily with a view of allying with the new submissive regime. That's how things will look like after a few centuries of detachment sifted the events.

it's called imperialism. been there done that.
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  #35  
Old 11 Sep 07, 20:02
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Originally Posted by piero1971 View Post
it's called imperialism. been there done that.
I sure wish you'd learn what a word meant before you used it. You only make yourself look foolishier and foolishier.
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  #36  
Old 11 Sep 07, 20:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piero1971 View Post
when was the last time the US "didn't" ????
Not since the brief time period when the U.S. had a monopoly on nukes. Since then The U.S.'s foreign policy has been like a very large child in a candy store. Cute, gets alot of awws, people worry about what damage it can cause, lacks attention span and generally foolish. Why do you think Osama isn't afraid of the U.S.? He knows the U.S. is a paper tiger and is more worried about Britany's cooch and what other nations think than taking the gloves off. That's why he KNOWS he will eventually win....no matter the cost is lives.
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  #37  
Old 11 Sep 07, 20:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
I dont think American policy is intimidated by foreign opinion to be honest. Your perceived gloves on attitiue to iraq and the insurgents has hell of a lot more to do with Ameican public opinion who wouldnt tolerate the levelling of a residential district by aerial bombardment live on CNN or possibly even fox.
Disagree. Real American's of the past with good leadership understood that war was hell and would tolerate what needed to be done to win it. Why do you think Sherman and Patton are considered American hero's?
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  #38  
Old 11 Sep 07, 21:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerVI67 View Post
Why do you think Sherman and Patton are considered American hero's?
Because they won, certainly not because of the bloodbaths their armies created. General Lee, Omar Bradley and George Washington are just as great military icons and they did not have reputations of killing everything in sight. If onslaught is the only factor in being a hero then certainly Kubal and Ghenghis Kahn should be your idols.
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  #39  
Old 11 Sep 07, 21:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lodestar
Do Americans feel as though the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t?
Naw... The vast majority of Americans don't give a rats keister... No sense wastin time worryin about it.

It ain't a feelin... they know it full well!

Life's to short to give a damn what those makin such blusterous generic judgments think about it.

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  #40  
Old 12 Sep 07, 03:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
Yes, we're asking them to behave like civilized human beings instead of barbaric animals. I know it's pointless, but it's polite to ask.
You're asking more than that. You're asking them how to organise their political process, what political forces to sideline, what economic policy to
adopt. (privatisation, market liberalisation etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
Yes, our totally unreasonable demand that they not attack or threaten us.
There's a big difference between attacking you and attacking your interests. Practically nobody has attacked your territory for 66 years and you're still whining about being attacked.

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
Is that before or after the black helicopters take Sasquatch to the alien spacecraft for examination? Put your tinfoil hat back on, your thoughts are being controlled!
So you dispute the fact that the US uses non-military coercion means? Wow, you must be in denial about eveything. I bet next you'll call me an UFOlogist for believeing that the CIA exists, right? There's no such thing, man.


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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
Prophesy, brother Nostradamus!
No it's called inference, not prophecy. Look back a few centuries and observe how the moves of the dominant states are looked at. Their excuses are not taken as fact and their interests are laid bear.
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  #41  
Old 12 Sep 07, 04:39
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[QUOTE=The Doctor;760976]

Please cite one "lie" that was the basis for Operation Iraqi Freedom. "Lie" is a word with a specific definition. The United Nations Security Council was unanimous in its determination that Iraq was not in compliance with the terms of the Gulf War cease-fire agreement. After 9/11, Saddam Hussein was an unacceptable security risk to this nation.


QUOTE]


Well by the same token show me where they told the truth. You are making an assumption, or let us say interpreting the same scenario differently to me – what makes your view of it correct and mine wrong? Can you definitively prove that Bush and co honestly believed that the “information” they were throwing out there was genuine?

But ok let’s for a moment assume they all honestly believed that Iraq possessed WMD and posed an imminent threat. That does involve ignoring consistent statements that Iraq posed no international threat, that the policy of containment was working, as well as consistent remarks of how the strategy was to be regime change in Iraq (all made long before 9/11). Let’s ignore the Downing Street Memo, the supposed 45 minute WMD threat, the outright fallacy of trying to get yellowcake uranium from Niger, the total misinformation on links between Al Qaeda and the Baath regime and laws opening up Iraqi oil to foreign companies. We can also ignore the fact that many of the officials in the Bush governments were members or linked to The Project for New American Century and had backed statements that called for taking on Iraq – which if nothing else shows a bias for wanting to invade. Putting all that and every other piece of evidence, information and analysis aside for the meantime lets assume they all honestly believed what they were saying.

How, then, can an intelligence service and government (mine included by the way!) have any credibility left? How can you then continue to believe anything they say when they got their very rationale for the war wrong? Not to mention the occupation itself, supposed nation building, international policy, managing the economy, dealing with security and helping create a situation where the danger from international terrorism has been judged by most to have increased significantly. Essentially the choice is between lies and corruption or outright incompetence, or is it perhaps a combination of all?

And as for quotes how about these –


We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction; he's determined to make more. Given Saddam Hussein's history of aggression...given what we know of his terrorist associations and given his determination to exact revenge on those who oppose him, should we take the risk that he will not some day use these weapons at a time and the place and in the manner of his choosing at a time when the world is in a much weaker position to respond? The United States will not and cannot run that risk to the American people. Leaving Saddam Hussein in possession of weapons of mass destruction for a few more months or years is not an option, not in a post-September 11th world
Colin Powell to UN Security Council, Feb 5 2003.
As compared to


The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason.”
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Vanity Fair

Or how about Cheney on Meet the Press saying that given what the now know they would still invade.

“The world is better off because Saddam Hussein is in jail instead of in power in Baghdad. It was the right thing to do and if we had it to do over again, we'd do exactly the same thing."

So in other words they would still invade Iraq even knowing that the stated reasons for the war did not exist. Makes you wonder what the real reasons were. I believe they lied, you do n’t. Different perceptions I guess.
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  #42  
Old 12 Sep 07, 06:18
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Originally Posted by TigerVI67 View Post
Disagree. Real American's of the past with good leadership understood that war was hell and would tolerate what needed to be done to win it. Why do you think Sherman and Patton are considered American hero's?

Tiger, as you say Americans of the past understood that. World war 2 was a war fought in a different time though. Patton and Sherman didnt have cnn or nbc watching and critiquing everything they did as happens now and as Trailboss said they won very popular wars. If the media were of the sort from ww2 now, it is arguable that people like westmorland or tommy franks would be american heroes too. The worlds moved on from that unfortunatley. I think American governments are very much afraid of public opinion in these wars( including my gov't it has to be said).Its always so mr president or General when is this going to be over , how long will it take, how much will it cost, is it right to sacrifice lives for this, arent you doing this just for oil etc etc etc. George Bush Snr practically ran desert storm with one eye on the polls. The body bags coming home from Vietnam has cast a long political shadow. The events of 9/11 took away that shadow for a while but it seems to have returned with quite a vengeance of late. Its the same here too. Montgomery is a bit of a national legend .No other generals post ww2 really are. I know some of their names because of the interest I have but widely there not known at all. Tim Collins is the most famous of late and he was a Colonel. He made a rousing speech to his troops ( which I think is on George W's desk ,at least it was) and he looked cool in sunglasses with a cigar and became minor media created celebrity but thats it.


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  #43  
Old 12 Sep 07, 07:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
There's a big difference between attacking you and attacking your interests. Practically nobody has attacked your territory for 66 years and you're still whining about being attacked.
Communication must be worse in Romania than I thought. I would have thought that bringing down the World Trade Center, attacking the Pentagon, etc. on September 11, 2001 would have reached even your part of the world. That is a whole lot sooner than 66 years ago. I presume you were referring to the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. At that time Hawaii was not even a state of the USA. Unless my history teacher was wrong New York is one of the original 13 colonies which formed the USA.
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Old 12 Sep 07, 10:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
So you dispute the fact that the US uses non-military coercion means?
I dispute that there is such a thing as "non-military coercion." Coercion necessarily includes force, by definition. Economic means cannot be coercion, since every country is free to choose its trading partners, etc. If a country trades with the U.S., it is of their own accord. We can't "force" anyone to buy our goods or sell us theirs. Political means are also voluntary. We can't "force" anyone to sign a treaty or make or break an alliance. Countries do these things at their own discretion.

If you don't like the U.S., don't buy our goods or enter into any agreements with us, simple. Oh, and the collectivist standard of "need" does not constitute use of force, for instance: "But it's coercion to cut off <Product X> shipments, we need them!" That doesn't hold water, because the U.S. is under no obligation to provide any product for any other country.
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Old 12 Sep 07, 10:22
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Not to be an idiot but the title of this thread is Do Americans Feel As Though the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't, correct? With that title how can so many people from other countries be on this thread telling us how we are supposed to feel? Whether or not I agree with the right wing or the left wing, no one from Europe or Asia or Africa or anywhere outside the US should tell Americans how they are supposed to feel. That's for us to decide and work out for ourselves.

This thread should not have had any non-US members replying to it. Sorry, but that's my take on it.
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