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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > War in Iraq

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War in Iraq Operations Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom and ongoing operations in the region.

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  #16  
Old 10 Sep 07, 19:56
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I dont think American policy is intimidated by foreign opinion to be honest. Your perceived gloves on attitiue to iraq and the insurgents has hell of a lot more to do with Ameican public opinion who wouldnt tolerate the levelling of a residential district by aerial bombardment live on CNN or possibly even fox.
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  #17  
Old 11 Sep 07, 01:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
The anti-Americanism of which you speak has been "just the way of the world and a natural human tendency to pull down number one" for over 60 years.

The post-9/11 "honeymoon" ended well before Operation Iraqi Freedom. It ended when the first US bombs started falling on the Taliban.

Thankfully the same left-wing snot-nosed academics who hawk the bash America first crap always manage to provide me with my best material...

From The Project on Defense Alternatives:

What were the world’s issues in the early 1980s?

It appears that we begin to lose the world as soon as we start taking on the bad guys. I have to assume that the loss of "supportive sentiments" in the 1980s must have been due to the shift from President Carter's foreign policy which was losing the Cold War to President Reagan's foreign policy that won the Cold War.

The United States is the recipient of "good will" when we are attacked and the United States loses "good will" at each step of militarily responding to such attacks...

"The sympathy and support for the United States...began to ebb as soon as US bombs began falling on Afghanistan."

The only conclusion that can be drawn is that a large number of people in this world respond favorably to the United States being attacked and respond negatively if the United States retaliates.

Therefore, the only way that the United States can accumulate "good will" is to allow itself to be destroyed and not defend itself.

Again, back to the quote..."The sympathy and support for the United States that surged worldwide in the aftermath of the 2001 attacks began to ebb as soon as US bombs began falling on Afghanistan."

The consistent correlation is this: The world likes the USA when we appear weak and when we are being attacked. The world despises the USA when we appear strong and aggressively dealing with the bad guys.

Is the left-wing thought process so filled with non sequitors that bass-ackwards logic appears to be normal?

I'd just assume that the USA was hated and feared rather than liked and destroyed.
Anti-Americanism does not have one source or one simple explanation, ask 100 people around the world what they think of the States and you will get many different answers. And for those who hate America they too will have many different reasons, and some will be quite understandable and justified. And many people do have a knee jerk hatred towards America and will blame it automatically for everything. However do not make the mistake of assuming all people do.

The problem is in part how we see our own nations, you said taking on the bad guys. Well how about just how many of the bad guys have been supported, funded, trained, armed and kept in power because it suited national interests? If you try and look at American foreign policy over the years in as neutral a manner as possible you cannot then start talking about how the States promotes freedom, democracy and human rights. And by the way that is the same for most nations around the world, including my own. Problem is all too many refuse to see the atrocities of their own country or group while shouting about everyone elses.

As for being attacked most people I know disagreed with attacking Iraq and mainly because they saw the reasons for what they were – lies. Try taking as critical a look at American history and foreign policy as you no doubt apply to your “enemies” and “left wing snot-nosed academics.” And what did being attacked on 9/11 have to do with Iraq, that’s a point worth mentioning again and again.

A lot of good things have come out of America historically and culturally, however a balanced reading also shows a hell of a lot of bad too.
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  #18  
Old 11 Sep 07, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
The world did not "like" the US after it was bombed. It only sympathised with it and the innocent people that died then.
You're right there, the world has not liked the US since the last time we saved their collective lives. Typical.

Quote:
And it understood you have to retaliate against Afghanistan.
No, it didn't, as evidenced by Doc's post. Duh.

Quote:
But then you attacked Iraq. And just like the world did not necessarily "like" Iraq or Saddam, the world sympathised with the victim of the attack and tried to prevent the attack.
OIF is not an "attack" in the way you're using it. It is national self-defense.

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All I see is a pattern of rejecting war and aggression.
No, it is a rejection of reason. Any military action by the US is denounced, even if it is self-defense. That is irrational. This smearing of the US is based on emotion (e.g., envy, as admitted by several above). This is also irrational.
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  #19  
Old 11 Sep 07, 13:17
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Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
Anti-Americanism does not have one source or one simple explanation, ask 100 people around the world what they think of the States and you will get many different answers. And for those who hate America they too will have many different reasons, and some will be quite understandable and justified. And many people do have a knee jerk hatred towards America and will blame it automatically for everything. However do not make the mistake of assuming all people do.
Well the sort of anti-Americanism that we're talking about does track very closely with the assertiveness of US foreign policy. The Project on Defense Alternatives report summed it up very clearly..."The sympathy and support for the United States that surged worldwide in the aftermath of the 2001 attacks began to ebb as soon as US bombs began falling on Afghanistan. Supportive sentiments continued to recede through 2004, driven increasingly by the Iraq war and eventually settling at levels unseen since the early 1980s..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
The problem is in part how we see our own nations, you said taking on the bad guys. Well how about just how many of the bad guys have been supported, funded, trained, armed and kept in power because it suited national interests? If you try and look at American foreign policy over the years in as neutral a manner as possible you cannot then start talking about how the States promotes freedom, democracy and human rights. And by the way that is the same for most nations around the world, including my own. Problem is all too many refuse to see the atrocities of their own country or group while shouting about everyone elses.
"The sympathy and support for the United States that surged worldwide in the aftermath of the 2001 attacks began to ebb as soon as US bombs began falling on Afghanistan. Supportive sentiments continued to recede through 2004, driven increasingly by the Iraq war and eventually settling at levels unseen since the early 1980s..."

Quote:
As for being attacked most people I know disagreed with attacking Iraq and mainly because they saw the reasons for what they were – lies. Try taking as critical a look at American history and foreign policy as you no doubt apply to your “enemies” and “left wing snot-nosed academics.” And what did being attacked on 9/11 have to do with Iraq, that’s a point worth mentioning again and again.
Please cite one "lie" that was the basis for Operation Iraqi Freedom. "Lie" is a word with a specific definition. The United Nations Security Council was unanimous in its determination that Iraq was not in compliance with the terms of the Gulf War cease-fire agreement. After 9/11, Saddam Hussein was an unacceptable security risk to this nation.

David Kay, former head of Iraq Survey Group...
"Based on the intelligence that existed, I think it was reasonable to reach the conclusion that Iraq posed an imminent threat. Now that you know reality on the ground as opposed to what you estimated before, you may reach a different conclusion — although I must say I actually think what we learned during the inspection made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than, in fact, we thought it was even before the war."
Bob Kerrey, former Democratic Senator and member of the 9/11 Commission...
"Let me restate the case for this Iraq war from the U.S. point of view. The U.S. led an invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein because Iraq was rightly seen as a threat following Sept. 11, 2001...No matter how incompetent the Bush administration and no matter how poorly they chose their words to describe themselves and their political opponents, Iraq was a larger national security risk after Sept. 11 than it was before..."
You may not agree with the assessments of these people...But the reasons for liberating Iraq from Saddam Hussein were not lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio
A lot of good things have come out of America historically and culturally, however a balanced reading also shows a hell of a lot of bad too.
I'll just leave you with a brilliant little speech from great Canadian named Gordon Sinclair...
Quote:
"LET'S BE PERSONAL" Broadcast June 5, 1973 CFRB, Toronto, Ontario

Topic: "The Americans"

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtze. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

ORIGINAL SCRIPT AND AUDIO
COURTESY STANDARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION LTD.

(c) 1973 BY GORDON SINCLAIR

Last edited by The Doctor; 11 Sep 07 at 13:20..
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  #20  
Old 11 Sep 07, 14:55
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I like America very much and have travelled in it quite a lot.I dont know why certain people though think that people are going to be eternally grateful to another individual or country overtly all of the time.Individuals rarely behave like that. Many people do not like to say thank you for things people do for them all of the time,its a matter of pride and ego. This is certainly true of the French establishment for example. De gaulle was very anti British/American after the war. France's world power was well and truly gone and a fall like that can make make people/nations lash out and resentful .Some of the British establishment were/are like that after the loss of empire. Its very difficult for someone to accept that their house was paid for by the rich next door neighbour (marshall plan).Often when I look at how nations treat each other I look at how individuals in our everyday lives treat each other and behave. The correlation is pretty much the same. Britain has got a lot of flack (from the left)for it past for the last 60 odd years when from we were a world power, the way some people treat America as the current world power is no real suprise to me. America did/does what she wants for its own reasons. Some will be grateful, others wont and will even be resentful. Thats life I'm afraid.

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Old 11 Sep 07, 14:55
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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
No, it didn't, as evidenced by Doc's post. Duh.
I thought you were of the school of thought that finds national polls to be untrustworthy, let alone "world" opinion polls.
Anyway, what does "ebbed" amount to in percentages?

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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
OIF is not an "attack" in the way you're using it. It is national self-defense.
Your political leaders had months time to rally popular support for that choice of war, using all media means available. It was not a decision taken under attack.
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Old 11 Sep 07, 15:02
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There was a comment that no one offers America help when she is in trouble.I know for a fact that is not true. In reaction to 9/11 I remember my government offered our rescue and dog teams to help the nyfd look for survivors, ithink the Germans did too. I cant speak for others. I also know my government offered any assistance that might be asked of us because of Hurricane Katrina. We were thanked and the offers declined as I would expect due to your resources but it was offered.
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Old 11 Sep 07, 15:06
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Your political leaders had months time to rally popular support for that choice of war, using all media means available. It was not a decision taken under attack.
I didn't say the decision was "taken under attack." I said it was national self-defense. A decision does not have to be made "in the heat of the moment" in order to qualify as self-defense. Are you saying it was not self-defense?
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Old 11 Sep 07, 15:22
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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
I didn't say the decision was "taken under attack." I said it was national self-defense. A decision does not have to be made "in the heat of the moment" in order to qualify as self-defense. Are you saying it was not self-defense?
I'm saying the reason behind the armed attack against the state of Iraq was your desire to change its regime. The fact that your politicans sugar-coated it with all kinds of dubious claims doesn't make it self-defense.
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Old 11 Sep 07, 15:51
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I'm saying the reason behind the armed attack against the state of Iraq was your desire to change its regime. The fact that your politicans sugar-coated it with all kinds of dubious claims doesn't make it self-defense.
No, the fact that we considered the nexus of saddam's regime and muslim terrorists a threat makes it self-defense. We were repeatedly attacked and threatened by both saddam and the lunatic muzzies and, after the unprovoked and dastardly attacks of 9/11, were unwilling to risk the consequences of allowing them to collaborate unimpeded. Fortunately for us, we don't need the "permission" of blowhard, socialist EUnuchs to defend ourselves.
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Old 11 Sep 07, 16:37
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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
No, the fact that we considered the nexus of saddam's regime and muslim terrorists a threat makes it self-defense.
Yeah, yeah, save it for the Nuremberg trials...

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Fortunately for us, we don't need the "permission" of blowhard, socialist EUnuchs to defend ourselves.
You can't talk sense into an aggressive state, that's true.
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Old 11 Sep 07, 17:21
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Yeah, yeah, save it for the Nuremberg trials...
There won't be any such trials, and you know it. And that burns your butt, doesn't it?

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You can't talk sense into an aggressive state, that's true.
You mean aggressive states like iran and syria? Aggressive terrorists like aq and hezbollah? You may be correct in that. What the US has done recently has been in self-defense. Or perhaps you would like to assert that the US does not have the right to defend itself, or to determine for itself what constitutes a threat.
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Old 11 Sep 07, 17:44
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Originally Posted by OmegaStrike View Post
There won't be any such trials, and you know it. And that burns your butt, doesn't it?
Maybe that helps you figure out one of the reasons the world does not like the US. No way to hold it accountable for anything while the US not only holds others accountable, but acts to punish them. Just like you dislike the "world" telling you what you should do, imagine how the world is in love with you forcing it to do what you say it should.

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What the US has done recently has been in self-defense. Or perhaps you would like to assert that the US does not have the right to defend itself, or to determine for itself what constitutes a threat.
I don't expect any country to justify its armed actions with anything but self-defense. That means historically we've been a world of self-defending states. So who's doing the attacking?
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Old 11 Sep 07, 18:02
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Maybe that helps you figure out one of the reasons the world does not like the US. No way to hold it accountable for anything while the US not only holds others accountable, but acts to punish them. Just like you dislike the "world" telling you what you should do, imagine how the world is in love with you forcing it to do what you say it should.
You accidentally came close to some truth there. "Do things the way we say you can, or we won't like you," does summarize the arrogant attitude of EUnuchs. We are not telling anyone what to do; we are telling them they cannot attack or threaten the US without serious consequences. That's what any nation would do, provided they are not impotent and irrelevant.

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I don't expect any country to justify its armed actions with anything but self-defense. That means historically we've been a world of self-defending states. So who's doing the attacking?
In this case, those doing the attacking are the islamic fascist governments (e.g., iran and syria) and their islamic terrorist proxies. Who did you think it was, the Swedes?
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Old 11 Sep 07, 18:38
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We are not telling anyone what to do; we are telling them they cannot attack or threaten the US without serious consequences. That's what any nation would do, provided they are not impotent and irrelevant.
Yes you are asking countries to behave and do certain things internally. Then if they're resisting your demands, there's a gradual process of influence and coercion that kicks in. Eventually if things go on the same path and that country has some value for your interests, you'll change its regime militarily with a view of allying with the new submissive regime. That's how things will look like after a few centuries of detachment sifted the events.
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