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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > South Asia and World Terrorism

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South Asia and World Terrorism Discuss the War in Afghanistan, civil war in Pakistan, and events around the Indian sub-continent.

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  #61  
Old 12 Sep 09, 21:32
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Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
Forgive me as well but would not the ultimate form of pessimism lay in seeing no possible future without global genocide?
Very simple, the Europeans can slaughter the Muslims or be ruled by them. They won't leave peacfully. Demographics is destiny, after all.
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  #62  
Old 13 Sep 09, 15:31
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
There's a fourth way... Create a geopolitical environment that forces Islam to police its own radicals... Effectively force Islam to choose between reformation and nonexistence.
Since there is little indication that any moderate aspect of Islam is trying to police it's radicals...haven't they already made that choice?
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  #63  
Old 13 Sep 09, 15:35
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
By jove I think he's got it. That requires economic investment not simply military action.
The idea that Jihad is tied to poverty is ridiculous.

Why should we pay tribute to remain safe from Islamofascists? If we have to throw money at the problem I say let it be money for bullets and bombs as an investment for a permanent solution rather than to pay protection money for ever.
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  #64  
Old 13 Sep 09, 15:49
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Originally Posted by Tater View Post
The idea that Jihad is tied to poverty is ridiculous.

Why should we pay tribute to remain safe from Islamofascists? If we have to throw money at the problem I say let it be money for bullets and bombs as an investment for a permanent solution rather than to pay protection money for ever.
How far down that rabbit hole will you go? Islam is growing by leeps and bounds because of overbreeding. The simple fact is we, even in America, but far more in Europe are hosts to a people who will outnumber us and have plans on how to exploit it? Why do you think Captain Hook Hamza was so popular in the Finnsbury Mosque.

It is unrealistic to expect co-exsistence with a relgion with world subjugating aims, but the first step is their total removal from western countries, down to all the Mehgrbi in France. But I do beleive by the time we are ready to do that, it will be too late, not for us, but for us to avoid a genocidal war between the remnants of the West and an Islamic populace who smell victory and had this been 500 years ago, they would be correct. But this is now and their will be no survivors amiong them by centuries end.

Problem is we can't bomb them in Paris because Paris is a western city. Bombs and bullets cannot win this war, for it is one of DEMOGRAPHICS and TERROR, and we'd have to kill all the Muslims to get to the last radical. Which is what is going to hapen. But the Middle East will probably be leveled soon. This war's battlefield is Europe, just as ol Nostradamus predicted, and that is where the battle will be lost or won.
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  #65  
Old 13 Sep 09, 17:08
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Wolery, what did America do with its African Americans? Did it evict them back to Africa or genocided them? No. It integrated them as best it could and now after several centuries America has a President that is half African American and according to the demographic projections the European Americans will become a minority by mid-century or so. That is what will happen in Europe too with the immigrants, Muslims included.

If you want Europe to behave as you write you'd have to get America to set that example first. And I think you know very well that you can't.
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  #66  
Old 13 Sep 09, 17:23
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Wolery, what did America do with its African Americans? Did it evict them back to Africa or genocided them? No. It integrated them as best it could and now after several centuries America has a President that is half African American and according to the demographic projections the European Americans will become a minority by mid-century or so. That is what will happen in Europe too with the immigrants, Muslims included.

If you want Europe to behave as you write you'd have to get America to set that example first. And I think you know very well that you can't.
Your example is incorrect. The primary cultural heritage of blacks in the USA is much more Western European...not African. The black community in the USA has much, MUCH more in common with white Anglo-Saxons than with Africans. IOW, they decided they wanted to assimilate and they did so.

Islam on the other hand doesn't demonstrate much desire to assimilate.
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  #67  
Old 13 Sep 09, 17:34
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Originally Posted by Tater View Post
Your example is incorrect. The primary cultural heritage of blacks in the USA is much more Western European...not African. The black community in the USA has much, MUCH more in common with white Anglo-Saxons than with Africans. IOW, they decided they wanted to assimilate and they did so.

Islam on the other hand doesn't demonstrate much desire to assimilate.
Now they do. But 200-300 years ago I doubt they had much in common with Anglo-Saxons. It would have been very easy for them to be shipped back to Africa. Probably costly but less costlier and difficult than doing it later on as they demographically grew.

Depends what you understand by assimilation. If it's abandonment of their religious beliefs and customs then it won't happen and from a democratic point of view it's not necessary. You know, diversity is good and all that.
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  #68  
Old 13 Sep 09, 17:36
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Now they do. But 200-300 years ago I doubt they had much in common with Anglo-Saxons. It would have been very easy for them to be shipped back to Africa. Probably costly but less costlier and difficult than doing it later on as they demographically grew.
Many were shipped back to Africa...Liberia.

Regardless, the blacks still decided to assimilate.

Quote:
Depends what you understand by assimilation. If it's abandonment of their religious beliefs and customs then it won't happen and from a democratic point of view it's not necessary. You know, diversity is good and all that.
Sure...as a long as everyone agees that it is OK. The problem is that once Islam is the majority diversity is illegal.
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  #69  
Old 14 Sep 09, 01:06
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Its the motive force for Islamists. Do people not realise that Muslims in places like Pakistan have put a great deal on the line and risked a great deal especially their lives and the schism of their entire country to help us fight the Taliban and militants in their own midst. The consequences for doing so are great yet they've still done it. The Chief of the Police in the North West Frontier who has been here on a visit has had 4 assasination attempts on his life for working with western intelligence and our militaries. This black and white view of everything is strategically flawed and will create more enemies than solutions.
There is no cowardice or appeasement in these forums which is why people keep on coming back. I won't retract a single word I wrote about Islam, regardless of how unpopular that makes me. Also, please remember that the most hateful anti-Western and anti-American rhetoric and some of the worst, most persistent acts of terrorism occurred over a period of 3 decades: 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Back then we were too preoccupied with bigger issues such as the threat of a nuclear war to hate Islam or reject Islam or even worry about Islam. By ignoring Islam and leaving it unmolested we opened the doors to such a pandemonium it may take 2 decades of warfare to undo the damage. What happened in the last 40 years only shows that being nice to Islam as an ideology is pointless because there is no benefit in it.
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  #70  
Old 14 Sep 09, 09:40
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Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
There is no cowardice or appeasement in these forums which is why people keep on coming back. I won't retract a single word I wrote about Islam, regardless of how unpopular that makes me. Also, please remember that the most hateful anti-Western and anti-American rhetoric and some of the worst, most persistent acts of terrorism occurred over a period of 3 decades: 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Back then we were too preoccupied with bigger issues such as the threat of a nuclear war to hate Islam or reject Islam or even worry about Islam. By ignoring Islam and leaving it unmolested we opened the doors to such a pandemonium it may take 2 decades of warfare to undo the damage. What happened in the last 40 years only shows that being nice to Islam as an ideology is pointless because there is no benefit in it.
Read my first post on this thread. I was way ahead of you. It puzzles me why you wont address my points directly about what I wrote in terms of the chief of police in the North Western Frontier etc and the sacrifices these particular Muslims (who are being all lumbered together in one bracket no matter what). If they are all in one bracket, why risk everything to fight these militants. You seem to be presuming that these points are part of an apology or an act of cowardice on my part. If so thats quite a presumption. You seem to have missed the point also. The events of the last 40 years had nothing to do with the West being "nice" to Islam or the territories where its culturally prevelent. As you correctly pointed out the West wasnt focused on Islam in that sense. The events of the last 40 years are a reaction to the geo political situations engendered by the cold war politcs and issues over oil which have involved us in the Middle East in a way in which the West has not been for a very long term if ever. We have never been "nice" to Islam as you put it. Its the unforseen consequences of our dealings there which have unfortuantely blown back on us in horrible ways by people who are very closed minded, violent in their reaction and to be frank aren't just Islamist , they are nationalists driven by cultural ego. You say its leaving Islam alone that caused this pandemonium. Actually its probably the opposite that is true ironically. It is the unforseen circumstances of globalisation and greater cultural/political contact between our worlds that has unleashed this amongst their irrational militants. One cannot underestimate the impact of the presence of western militaries on Saudi soil for all this time for example. Much emphahsis is stessed on what is written in the Koran about Jihad and so forth and to an extent quite rightly so but if one ignores the geo-politics that has accompanied it and fuels such extreme rationals, one is only seeing half the picture and therefore only half the possible solution.

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Old 14 Sep 09, 10:01
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Read my first post on this thread. I was way ahead of you. It puzzles me why you wont address my points directly about what I wrote in terms of the chief of police in the North Western Frontier etc and the sacrifices these particular Muslims (who are being all lumbered together in one bracket no matter what). If they are all in one bracket, why risk everything to fight these militants. You seem to be presuming that these points are part of an apology or an act of cowardice on my part. If so thats quite a presumption. You seem to have missed the point also. The events of the last 40 years had nothing to do with the West being "nice" to Islam or the territories where its culturally prevelent. As you correctly pointed out the West wasnt focused on Islam in that sense. The events of the last 40 years are a reaction to the geo political situations engendered by the cold war politcs and issues over oil which have involved us in the Middle East in a way in which the West has not been for a very long term if ever. We have never been "nice" to Islam as you put it. Its the unforseen consequences of our dealings there which have unfortuantely blown back on us in horrible ways by people who are very closed minded, violent in their reaction and to be frank aren't just Islamist , they are nationalists driven by cultural ego. You say its leaving Islam alone that caused this pandemonium. Actually its probably the opposite that is true ironically. It is the unforseen circumstances of globalisation and greater cultural/political contact between our worlds that has unleashed this amongst their irrational militants. One cannot underestimate the impact of the presence of western militaries on Saudi soil for all this time for example. Much emphahsis is stessed on what is written in the Koran about Jihad and so forth and to an extent quite rightly so but if one ignores the geo-politics that has accompanied it and fuels such extreme rationals, one is only seeing half the picture and therefore only half the possible solution.
We haven't lumped them together...they have lumped themselves together. When moderates continue to blame the west for all their problems they unwittingly justify the actions of Islamofascists in the minds of the general Islamic population. I have yet to see even one moderate Muslim blame the teachings of Muhammad (which undeniably call for Jihad) for their problems. Generally they say violence is not good and then they throw in the big "BUT"...after which they blame it all on the west (USA).

IOW, you can't blame terrorism on anything else but the terrorists...to insinuate that it is the result of some other reason only serves to provide excuses/justification to the terrorists.
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Old 14 Sep 09, 10:06
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We haven't lumped them together...they have lumped themselves together. When moderates continue to blame the west for all their problems they unwittingly justify the actions of Islamofascists in the minds of the general Islamic population. I have yet to see even one moderate Muslim blame the teachings of Muhammad (which undeniably call for Jihad) for their problems. Generally they say violence is not good and then they throw in the big "BUT"...after which they blame it all on the west (USA).

IOW, you can't blame terrorism on anything else but the terrorists...to insinuate that it is the result of some other reason only serves to provide excuses/justification to the terrorists.
I dont but neither do I believe that these people do these things in a vacum. To percieve that they do so is immensely short sighted. As Sun Tsu said know your enemy and he knew a thing or two. I think these people are immensely dangerous so to not know them and understand better what their mindset is, is pure and utter folly.

In reference to the bold type above. how many converstions with Muslims have you had in tent in the Sahara or bars in North Africa. Im going to suspect not as many as me. They blamed their problems a great deal on what was going on in their back door as it happens and yes they did have issues with the west. Some justified , some not so justified. The point is I know people are not so monolithic as you want to believe.

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Old 14 Sep 09, 10:22
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I dont but neither do I believe that these people do these things in a vacum. To percieve that they do so is immensely short sighted. As Sun Tsu said no your enemy and he knew a thing or two.
I see Sun Tsu quoted a lot and I know he wrote a book. But I never see any references to exactly how many (significant) battles/wars he ever won.

Anyway...

I think we know our enemy...on one hand they try to play us using the poor, poor pitiful me BS...while the other clutches a dagger.

Quote:
In reference to the bold type above. how many converstions with Muslims have you had in tent in the Sahara or bars in North Africa. Im going to suspect not as many as me. They blamed their problems a great deal on what was going on in their back door as it happens and yes they did have issues with the west. Some justified , some not so justified. The point is I know people are not so monolithic as you want to believe.
I have seen what so called moderate Islamic leaders spout for public consumption. Islam is known by it's leadership just as much as the west is. And for that matter, how many conversations with Americans from Tennessee have your Muslim bar buddies ever had...AND...if they were Muslim what the h#ll were they doing in bars?!?! Seems to me that you were speaking with some "Muslims In Name Only" (MINO's). Sounds more like some what westernized Muslims.

IOW, a couple of drunken conversations with some less than faithful Muslims does not an Islamic expert make.
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Old 14 Sep 09, 10:39
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Very simple, the Europeans can slaughter the Muslims or be ruled by them. They won't leave peacfully. Demographics is destiny, after all.
So what do you advise? What is the preferred method - perhaps gas chambers? Or should we go the Rwandan route of machetes, hand grenades and so on. Lots of up close and personal bonding. Or how about if we just get the armed forces to throw cordons around towns and round them up, they can always be shot and buried outside the towns that way. I guess we could always allocate a ghetto for them - then just starve them before wiping it off the planet.

And I guess we have to organise evacuating non-Muslims from Muslim majority countries before we carpetbomb them and massacre all of them. Or should we slaughter all the non-Muslims over there too, since they are bound to have been corrupted by the evil presence of Muslims.

And I suppose you are an example of the superiority of Western culture and civilization that the extremists on these forums keep talking about?
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Old 14 Sep 09, 11:59
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So what do you advise? What is the preferred method - perhaps gas chambers? Or should we go the Rwandan route of machetes, hand grenades and so on. Lots of up close and personal bonding. Or how about if we just get the armed forces to throw cordons around towns and round them up, they can always be shot and buried outside the towns that way. I guess we could always allocate a ghetto for them - then just starve them before wiping it off the planet.

And I guess we have to organise evacuating non-Muslims from Muslim majority countries before we carpetbomb them and massacre all of them. Or should we slaughter all the non-Muslims over there too, since they are bound to have been corrupted by the evil presence of Muslims.

And I suppose you are an example of the superiority of Western culture and civilization that the extremists on these forums keep talking about?
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