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South Asia and World Terrorism Discuss the War in Afghanistan, civil war in Pakistan, and events around the Indian sub-continent.

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  #46  
Old 11 Sep 09, 05:53
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
[...]

Options for the West in the GWOT are;

1) Convert to Islam

2) Accept that Jihadists will continue to attack as long as they exist and and there are non-Muslims (or heretic Muslims) to attack (such as has been going on for nearly 1400 years already).

3) Eliminate Jihadists and Jihad idealology.

[...]

There's a fourth way... Create a geopolitical environment that forces Islam to police its own radicals... Effectively force Islam to choose between reformation and nonexistence.
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  #47  
Old 11 Sep 09, 05:56
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
There's a fourth way... Create a geopolitical environment that forces Islam to police its own radicals... Effectively force Islam to choose between reformation and nonexistence.

By jove I think he's got it. That requires economic investment not simply military action.
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  #48  
Old 11 Sep 09, 06:02
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
By jove I think he's got it. That requires economic investment not simply military action.
Carrot and stick... Chastisement and attraction...
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  #49  
Old 11 Sep 09, 06:39
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Carrot and stick... Chastisement and attraction...

Well it makes a change from the usual lets nuke the that is usually peddled round here.

The attraction is money and stability. Thats shut up more nutters than anything else in history.
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  #50  
Old 11 Sep 09, 07:32
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Well it makes a change from the usual lets nuke the that is usually peddled round here.

[...]
That's the stick of chastisement...
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  #51  
Old 11 Sep 09, 08:51
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
That's the stick of chastisement...
Knew it was too good to be true. That someone on this particular forum would actually pursue the concept of lateral thinking around these problems was too much of a suprise for me to really believe it to be true. People who believe that pre-emptive use of nuclear weapons on medieval ****holes is a good idea are as bigger as Taliban Jihadists.

Last edited by copenhagen; 11 Sep 09 at 08:54..
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  #52  
Old 11 Sep 09, 14:32
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Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Of course its all so straightforward isnt it.
That's the motive force of Islam used to recruit more members. I never used the word straightforward. Islam is anything but. It's chaos. Muslims jumped at each others throats immediately after the death of Muhammad when they couldn't agree on the choice of the successor. That was the beginning of the schism between the Shia and the Sunni.
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  #53  
Old 11 Sep 09, 14:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
There's a fourth way... Create a geopolitical environment that forces Islam to police its own radicals... Effectively force Islam to choose between reformation and nonexistence.
Doc, I think you are missing some steps in that.

First, the Muslims have to believe we will fight them to extinction. Given the tear shedding the West does over the Holocaust, I would not believe for one moment the political power structure of the West would annihilate 100X as many people, most of them women and children.

Second, when the west is made to understand Islam will never stop trying to annihilate it, and Muslims begin burning large cities in Europe, those who come into power will not be interested in containing Islam. The Muslims would at this point crossed the Rubicon, and the leaders of Europe at least will have their political (and physical) lives at stake if they do not remove the Islamic menace from Europe and make the Europeans feel safe again. The same point also applies to an India with a HUGE Muslim population and even worse religious ties, as Muslims are technically supposed to put polytheists (like Hindus) to death unless they convert.

Third, radical Muslims do not fundamentally believe they can lose. I read some guy in Hezbollah who said the nukes would fall back on their silos. In the context, I was told this is not an uncommon belief. And what's more, Islam is made up of two branches, each with about four schools. There are 1.2 billion Muslims, and most countries are wretchedly poor and getting more so. The Islamic world CANNOT police itself, and has no real authority to stop ghazis, Jihadis and whatever, EXCEPT insofar that Islam is not strong enough to fight the West. Any Islamic leader who says that publicly will be lynched...if they are lucky.

We cannot coexist with Islam. But we will exhaust every option until the last desperate hour when we must choose whether we are willing to live, or die by irrational political morals.
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  #54  
Old 11 Sep 09, 14:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
That's the motive force of Islam used to recruit more members. I never used the word straightforward. Islam is anything but. It's chaos. Muslims jumped at each others throats immediately after the death of Muhammad when they couldn't agree on the choice of the successor. That was the beginning of the schism between the Shia and the Sunni.
Its the motive force for Islamists. Do people not realise that Muslims in places like Pakistan have put a great deal on the line and risked a great deal especially their lives and the schism of their entire country to help us fight the Taliban and militants in their own midst. The consequences for doing so are great yet they've still done it. The Chief of the Police in the North West Frontier who has been here on a visit has had 4 assasination attempts on his life for working with western intelligence and our militaries. This black and white view of everything is strategically flawed and will create more enemies than solutions.
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  #55  
Old 11 Sep 09, 14:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
Doc, I think you are missing some steps in that.

First, the Muslims have to believe we will fight them to extinction.

[...]

Second, when the west is made to understand Islam will never stop trying to annihilate it...

[...]

Third, radical Muslims do not fundamentally believe they can lose.

[...]
Those all fall into the realm of forcing "Islam to choose between reformation and nonexistence."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolery
We cannot coexist with Islam. But we will exhaust every option until the last desperate hour when we must choose whether we are willing to live, or die by irrational political morals.
I think we can coexist with Islam.

The problem is that the 11th and 21st centuries cannot coexist for very long on this planet. Islam either has to move forward in time or cease to exist.
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  #56  
Old 11 Sep 09, 17:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
The Muslims would at this point crossed the Rubicon, and the leaders of Europe at least will have their political (and physical) lives at stake if they do not remove the Islamic menace from Europe and make the Europeans feel safe again.
Chances are they'll convert to Islam and impose Sharia. Look at the history of early Christianity for a possible pattern of that change process.
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  #57  
Old 11 Sep 09, 21:03
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Imperial,

I gotta ask, what makes you so sure of that? When I talk of new leadership, I'm talking about the far right, borderline neo-nazis types who are getting more votes even now. In the end the Germans chose Hitler because they saw (correctly) it was Nazism or Communism, pick one. The choice in that hour will be clear: the far right who fundamentally want European civilization to endure, or masses of immigrants and jihadis bent on destroying everything good about Europe forever.

Why would far right, borderline neo-nazis want anything to do with a religion they rightly consider barbaric and incompatible with the European way. I mean no offense, but I cannot understand the dead man walking thing.

I would appreciate an answer more than two sentences, cause the only thing I can think of it that you've given into a pessimistic mindset that seems to hang over Europeans like a pall.
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  #58  
Old 11 Sep 09, 22:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
Chances are they'll convert to Islam and impose Sharia. Look at the history of early Christianity for a possible pattern of that change process.
I have long thought that Islam is about two to three centuries away from where Christianity is now as far as the use of force to convert people.
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  #59  
Old 12 Sep 09, 09:21
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Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
Imperial,

I gotta ask, what makes you so sure of that? When I talk of new leadership, I'm talking about the far right, borderline neo-nazis types who are getting more votes even now. In the end the Germans chose Hitler because they saw (correctly) it was Nazism or Communism, pick one. The choice in that hour will be clear: the far right who fundamentally want European civilization to endure, or masses of immigrants and jihadis bent on destroying everything good about Europe forever.

Why would far right, borderline neo-nazis want anything to do with a religion they rightly consider barbaric and incompatible with the European way. I mean no offense, but I cannot understand the dead man walking thing.

I would appreciate an answer more than two sentences, cause the only thing I can think of it that you've given into a pessimistic mindset that seems to hang over Europeans like a pall.
The far-right has obtained meager results. 1 seat here, 2 there, maybe 4 at most in one instance. Overall they have somewhere around 30 seats in a European Parliament of over 700 seats and no political group of their own. The hysteria about the far-right danger was created mostly by the center, left and far-left parties that wanted to capitalize on it (man the life boats by voting for us). The far-right parties are boycotted, contained and assaulted the first moment they make a move. They have no important sponsors - the big capital is interested in globalization and open borders, not far-right nationalistic turmoil. The big money and media attention flow to the other parties. So I don't see the far-right moving out of its fringe corner anytime soon. Meanwhile, immigration and demography carry on. So as the muslim community grows, the mainstream parties and businesses will cater for it and work to include it in the system in order to get benefits from it too. Game over.
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  #60  
Old 12 Sep 09, 17:22
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Originally Posted by Wolery View Post
. . . I would appreciate an answer more than two sentences, cause the only thing I can think of it that you've given into a pessimistic mindset that seems to hang over Europeans like a pall.
Forgive me as well but would not the ultimate form of pessimism lay in seeing no possible future without global genocide?
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