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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > South Asia and World Terrorism

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South Asia and World Terrorism Discuss the War in Afghanistan, civil war in Pakistan, and events around the Indian sub-continent.

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  #16  
Old 08 Sep 07, 04:06
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Jihad - V

http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html
.... Allah's Messenger said: "That is (the thing) which is equal to Jiha^d. Likewise Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said:

I) The souls of the martyrs are in the green birds dwelling in Paradise wherever they like.

2) That all their sins and faults are forgiven.

3) That he can intercede with Allah (swt) for seventy (70) of his family members.

4) That he will come secure on the Day of Resurrection from the great terror.

S) That he will not feel the agonies and distress of death.

6) That he will not be horrified by the (great) Gathering (on the Day of Resurrection).

7) That he does not feel the pain of "the killing" except like that of a pinch.

And how many agonies and distresses are there for a person who dies on his bed- and a standing (praying) or a sleeping person in Jihad is better than a fasting or standing (praying) person not in Jihad- and whosoever acted as a guard or escort in Allah's Cause, his eyes will never witness the Fire (Hell) and that a day spent while one is in Jihad for Allah's Cause is better than the world and whatsoever is in it.
....
__________________________________________________ _
For the Martyr, the Mujahidin who dies in JIHAD, we see the rewards are even greater. This is how one circumvents the usual Islamic prohibition towards suicide, because dying "in battle" isn't suicide.
__________________________________________________ _
....
O you who believe! What is the matter with you,that when you are asked to march forth in the Cause of Allah (i.e. go for Jihad), you cling heavily to the earth? Are you pleased with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But little is the enjoyment of the life of this world as compared with the Hereafter. (V.9:38).

Similarly Allah (swt) disapproved of those who abandoned Jihad (i.e. they did not go for Jihad) and attributed to them hypocrisy and disease in their hearts, and threatened (all) those who remain behind from Jihad and sit (at home) with horrible punishment. He (Allah swt) accused them with the most ugly descriptions, rebuked them for their cowardice and spoke against them (about their weakness and their remaining behind) as He said:

If you march not forth, He will punish you with a painful torment and will replace you by another people and you cannot harm Him at all, and Allah is Able to do all things (V.9:39).

And there are many Verses of the Qur'an after this Verse (that threaten the Muslim nation if they give up Jihad).
....
__________________________________________________ _________

As we see here, heavy is the price for the Muslim(nation/people/tribe) who declines to undertake Jihad when 'asked'.
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Old 08 Sep 07, 04:25
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Jihad - Vi

http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html
....
So (today) they (Muslims) are leading a life of the one who knows not any Prophet, nor believes in any Divine Message or Divine Inspiration, nor expects any reckoning nor is afraid of the Hereafter. They (Muslims) resemble the preIslamic ignorant nations, against whom they used to fight in the past. They have turned on their heels (back) as apostates from Islam, they have imitated them (ignorant nations) in their civilization, in their social affairs, in their political affairs, in their character and in the pleasures of their lives. They (Muslims) also imitated them in many other things because of which Allah (swt) hated and forsook them. He (Allah) put them (Muslims) into trials under the effects of (1) Western civilization (2) and the Eastern Communist propaganda. So their land became "a free wealth" with no protector, their kingdom became a victim for every beast of prey and a food (nourishment) for every eater, and the meaning of the statement of the Prophet (Muhammad pbuh ) became apparent:

"It is expected that the nations will call other nations to share them against you (Muslims) as the eaters call each other to eat from the food in front of them in a large wooden plate." A person asked the Prophet (pbuh) will that happen because of our small number on that day? The Prophet said: "Nay! Your number (will be great, but you will be rubbish like the rubbish of flood-water. And certainly Allah will remove from the hearts of your enemies 'the fear from you' and surely He (Allah) will throw Wahn in your hearts." A person asked: What is 'Wahn', O Allah's Messenger? The Prophet (pbuh) said, 'Wahn' is to love (this) world and to hate the death."
....
One of the orientalists said: "When the Muslims turned away from their religious teachings and became ignorant of its wisdom and its laws, and deviated towards the contradictory (manmade) laws taken from the opinions of men, there spread in them immorality of character, falsehood, hypocrisy, illwill and hatefulness increased in them. Their unity disintegrated and they became ignorant of their present and future state and became unaware of what will harm them or will benefit them. They have become contented with the life in which they eat, drink, sleep and compete not with others, in superiority." AII this is a visible fact, which every true believer feels, and which every enthusiastic person (about his religion) palpates in every community (nation) that gives up Al-Jihad and dips itself; (1) in a luxurious life, (2) in the worshipping of wealth and (3) in the love of this world.
....
...It was not long before their descendants deviated from the Right Path, tore themselves into pieces after they had one united entity, they doubted the Truth, so, for them the path was separated and they became as groups (and sects) having different (views and) opinions opposing each other in their aims... So how can they be elevated?... How can there be any progress or priority possible for them while they are following the disbelieving nations, they drag along behind them, pursue their ways and footsteps and imitate their actions, small or great.

They judge their people with the contradictory (manmade) laws which conflict and clash with the Islamic laws, which were the origin of their honour and pride and in which was their peace and steadfastness. Allah (swt) said:

Do they then seek the judgment of (the Days of) Ignorance. And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm Faith? (V.5:50).

We beseech Allah to make victorious His Religion (Islam) and to make superior His Words and to lead all the Muslims to that in which His Pleasure is-Amin.
__________________________________________________ ___________

So this piece ends with an effort to shame the apostates, individuals and nations, who've strayed from the Truth of Islam onto the path of Western Secularism, back to the Right Path and Jihad. It is this "guilt" which infects many in the Islamic world who fear their souls are lost unless they leave the Western lifestyle and undertake Jihad for their spiritual salvation~reward.

Until some one/way is found to "unwrite" this part of Islamic dogma/scripture that encourages Jihad as the only way of meaningful salvation and reward in paradise, the world can expect centuries of Holy War until we've all been converted, killed, or the Islamic 'Final Judgement Day' arrives.

BTW, a reminder that this article can be found in the website I first presented on Islam in general, the one written and presented by Muslims to promote their religion;
http://www.islamworld.net/

[again, 3D imposes and I'll pick-up on this at a later time]
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  #18  
Old 08 Sep 07, 13:14
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Jihad ~ Converts

Interesting serendipity this morning at msn.com, the following article segways into what I was posting last night.

The Convert's Zeal
Radical Islamism has become a magnet for some of the world's angriest people.
http://www.slate.com/id/2173561

Some excerpts;

"Much as this June's failed terrorist attacks in London and Glasgow focused attention on the participation of doctors and other professionals in jihadist terror, the plot disrupted in Germany this week seems certain to put the spotlight on another key group within violent Islamism: converts. "
...
"One might have thought that terrorist organizations would be leery of converts and worry that they were unreliable or even suspect them to be moles. The opposite has been true. According to French sociologist Olivier Roy, 10 percent of al-Qaida's soldiers in the global jihad are converts, and in France the number might reach 25 percent. Roy takes this as an indicator of the group's globalized nature, "because a convert is not motivated by his or her culture at all. He is not motivated by the political life of his or her country. He's motivated by joining something global. Al-Qaida is made of born again [Muslims] and converts who join the global jihad. One day they go to Bosnia and another to Chechnya, or to Kashmir, or to Afghanistan, or to Fallujah.

Moreover, the phenomenon of conversion plays an important part in al-Qaida's cosmology. When the group's propagandists talk about its ultimate victory, the conversion of the Christian West is often mentioned as a major milestone. When the organization wants to show it is on a roll, it also may refer to the current growth in conversions. ..."
...
" ...A sociologist quoted in the article says some see conversion to Islam as a dramatic act that makes them "stand out from the crowd." Though negligible in the larger scheme of things, the chance that a convert will turn jihadist is much greater than that of someone born Muslim. That suggests that for those who turn violent, the act is more a matter of standing against the crowd rather than standing out from it. Radical Islamism seems to have become the magnet for some of the world's angriest people who feel the universe is out of joint and must be changed. For these converts, it is an ideology of revolt that is more attractive because of its crystalline hatred of the status quo than its theology."
...
_______________________________________________

Those last two sentences really sum it up IMO. It's not theology that motivates the "converts" become terrorists(Jihadis) as much as "anger against the world/humanity in general". The same thing that drove/motivated many in the radical movements of the sixties and seventies, anger over ideology. The "movement" is just a channel for applying their hatred.
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Old 09 Sep 07, 18:04
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you shoudl also post parts on the genesis of Islam.

historical sources actually show that it was an offshoot of a Jewish extremist sect outcasted in Syria, and that later became Islam - something like two centuries after the "official" history, and the myth of Muhammed is also created at a later stage. repeat of the myth, and destruction of any proof otherwise, as well as forbidding and questioning became history.

as many other religions, it's a fake.
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Old 15 Sep 07, 15:08
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True Belief/Believers

Quote:
Originally Posted by piero1971 View Post
you shoudl also post parts on the genesis of Islam.

historical sources actually show that it was an offshoot of a Jewish extremist sect outcasted in Syria, and that later became Islam - something like two centuries after the "official" history, and the myth of Muhammed is also created at a later stage. repeat of the myth, and destruction of any proof otherwise, as well as forbidding and questioning became history.

as many other religions, it's a fake.
Piero,

Per the first part of your post;
1) I'm not familiar with this aspect of the History of Islam so would suggest that if you have sources and documentation for it, feel free to post such, I'm not claiming this thread is my exclusive domain for posts (even though I've not yet concluded the "list" of posts I plan to make here.) BTW, that makes for one great 'cover-up conspiracy~myth creation' given that most of the known "Islamic World/realms" were conquered and converted during those first two centuries worth of Islamic history.
2) For now I'll stick with the Conventional and standard history of Islam and Jihad since it's the material I'm most familar with and something that seems to be little known or understood, not only by many posting and reading here, but also in the Western World as a whole.

As for Islam, or any other religion being "fake"; first a better definition of what you mean by "fake" would help. More to the point, this is a rather academic angle since those who follow/believe in Islam, or any other religion/ideology usually do so as a matter of "faith" more than evidence.

Muhammad "beleived" he was being spoken to by God/Allah and his messanger angel Gabriel. Whether this was objective true and real is something hard to prove, or disprove, but the key here is that Muhammad "believed" it true and acted accordingly. As did those who followed him then and afterward.

Same can be said for the numerous prophets and leaders of Judism. Same for the followers of Jesus Christ and his Apostles. Same for the followers of Budda who have deified him after his death.

Perhaps Muhammad, the Jewish prophets, Christ, Budda, etc. were hearing voices from a delusional subconscious mind. Maybe some being/entity on a level of sentience above and beyond our human one in the Cosmic scheme of Creation. Maybe those "voices" were just extra-terrestrial aliens using religion for machiavelian schemes of planetary conquest/population control-diversion. Whatever the ultimate "Real" source of the messages, whether "true" or "fake", the more important concern here with what I'm presenting is to illustrate the "what" of the True Believers as a means of understanding Why they do what they do.

Each of us operates from a matrix of mental/physical health thru cultural conditioning in forming our attitudes of what we have chosen to believe in. Our system of beliefs then forms a foundation of standards we live and act by. These concepts and principles then become our "truths" which we "believe in" because our scope of perspective sees them as "real" and "true" ilregardless of whether such is the case in an objective, outside perpsective or not. A "True Believing" Muslim (or Christian, or Buddist, or Liberal-Socialist, etc.) will "Believe" and act per those beliefs. Therefore, knowing the scope and scale of that "True Believers" religion/ideology is essential if one wishes to know and understand them and why they live and act as they do, and how they might predictably respond to a given situation.

In the case of the GWOT which is mostly a war against IslamicJihadism knowing the nature and substance of Islam, no matter how real or logical or not such a "belief system" is becomes essential if one wishes to "Know thy Enemy", a key component in knowing how to tactically and strategically react to the actions of one's enemy and predict that enemy's future actions and responses to your actions.

The Nazi movement in Germany of the 1920-1940's was a "true belief" system that appeared as a political movement when the Nazis came to power in 1933, but it had an ideology that was quasi-religious in it's origins in the beliefs/concepts of the Vril and Thule Societies in Germany in the decades prior. Though these would be considered meta-physical or "occult" mysticism by many, they were rooted in ages old cultural concepts held as "truth" by many Germans, hence the ready embrace of many Germans to the Nazi agenda. To the world outside of Germany, largely ignorant of the cultural beliefs the Nazi 'religion' was based upon, the Nazi ideology would appear as fake~unrealistic and illogical in an objective sense, but this view didn't stem the growth of the Nazi movement nor it's later political and global agenda and actions. A lack of knowledge and appreciation of the Nazi ideology tended to blind many in the West when they tried to negotiate and deal with "the Nazis" hence the West misjudged Germany's intentions and failed to react, let alone proact, to avoid what became a horrendous global conflict.

I see something very similar happening today as the World/West tries to deal with IslamoFascism~Jihad via the so-called GWOT-Global War On Terror(ism). Guess that makes a logical place for this article. The author has given it a rather misleading title: "The Nazi Roots of Modern Radical Islam", I think a more appropriate one would be along the lines of "Common Ideological Roots of Nazism and Modern Islamic Jihadism". Both share a disturbingly interwoven path during the first half of the 20th century;
http://www.sftt.org/dwa/2002/12/18/2.html
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Old 16 Sep 07, 05:04
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by fake, I mean invented by men, not revelation of any kind by a supreme beeing or angels, etc. (the bible was wrtten and compiled in babylon, the gospels were assembled in the 3rd century, etc. i.e. all "fakes"...)

I dont' know about links, but for sources I have a few books on the specific topic of Islam and Mohammed's supposed existance. notably "A Jew named Mohammed" and "A little guide of the Koran".

but revert the argument. is there a single Archeological source (archeology beeing the "real" foundation of history) about the existence of Mohammed, or the existance of any of the towns that he was supposed to have lived in at the times (mecca, medina) ?

for your info, all archeological research on the Prophet is forbidden and any questioning of the "official" history is banned in islamic law. surprise suprise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
http://www.islamworld.net/jihad.html

So when you meet (in fight... Jihad in Allah's Cause) those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom) or ransom (according to whatbenefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad againstthe disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hellfire) orat leastcome under your protection] but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight) in orderto test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.
He will guide them and set right their state.
And admit them to Paradise which He has made known to them (i.e. they will know their places in Paradise more than they used to know their houses in this world). (V.47:4, 5,6).
....

Then Allah (swt) revealed in Sarah Tauba (Bara 'a) (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) the obligations (covenants, etc.) and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Mushrikun as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizya (a tax levied on the nonMuslims who do not embrace Islam and are under the protectionofanlslamicgovernment) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in the Verse 9:29). So they (Muslims) were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and are able to fight against them (non Muslims).

As it is now obvious, at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory- ( I ) against them who start "the fighting" against you (Muslims)... (2) and against all those who worship others along with Allah... as mentioned in SurahAIBaqaraSl (II), Allmran (III) and Tauba (IX)... and other Sarah (Chapters of the Qur'an). Allah (swt) made "the fighting' (Jihad) obligatory for the Muslims and gave importance to the subjectmatter of Jihad in all the Sarah (Chapters of the Qur'an) which were revealed (at AlMadina) as in Allah's Statement:

March forth whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), strive [ hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allah. This is better for you if you but knew. (V.9:41).
....
__________________________________________________ _________
Muhammad studied Jewish and Christian scripture as part of his meditation program seeking inspiration for a religion for his people, the Arabs. When he began "channeling" messages from Allah he initially tried to emmulate Jesus with a peaceful preacher method. Hostility and violence towards him and his followers, which included the deaths of some of his followers, saw his "ministry" take on a more violent counter-response in it's second half. Allah granted permission to Muhammad to 'carry a sword' and lead armies in Allah's cause and hence the die was cast for Islam to expand with conversion by force of sword/pain of death to those who resisted/refused to convert/submit.

Since the Qur'an is not written in chronological order this is why it appears to bounce from "peaceful" to warlike/Jihad Suras, the two halves of Muhammad's 'ministry' intermingled in the chapters/Suras arranged by order of length per number of verses within each rather than theme or timing of his preaching.
__________________________________________________ _____________
....

And He (Allah) said:

Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know. (V.2:216)

"The fighting", even though by its nature is disliked by the human soul because of the liability, of being killed, orbeing taken as a captive, or being injured, with the wasting ofthe wealth, the damaging of the industries, the destruction ofthe country, the spreading of fear and awe in the souls and the (possibility) of being exiled from one's homeland, Allah had made ready an immensely good reward that cannot be imagined by a human soul.

'Ikrima (a religious scholar) said: At first Muslims disliked it (Jihad), but later they loved it and said: "We listen and obey." And that is because the submission to the order to fight means hardship, but if the reward is made known it becomes to compare the hardship involved and its reward.

The Verses of the Qur'an and the Sunna (the Prophet's legal ways, orders etc.) have exhorted greatly for Jihad and have made quite clear its rewards, and praised greatly thosewhoperform Jihad (the holy fighting in Allah's Cause) and explained to them various kinds of honours which they will receive from their Lord (Allah swt). This is because they-Mudahidin are Allah's troops. Allah (swt) will establish His religion (Islam), with them (Mujahidin). He will repel the might of His enemies, and with them He will protect Islam and guard the religion safely.

And it is they, (Mujahidin) who fight against the enemies of Allah in order that the worship should be all for Allah (Alone and not for any other deity) and that the Word of Allah (swt) (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but Allah (swt) and His religion Islam) should be superior. Allah has made them (Mujahidin) partners in reward along with all those who guard Islam with their weapons, along with their good deeds which they performed even if they sleep in their homes.
....
__________________________________________________ _______

Fighting for a Noble Cause with a Great Reward, the Mujahidin becomes a sort of "Jedi" for Allah. Sheds some insight in how this appeals to young minds indoctrinated with Theology from an early age and desiring "Glory" in their lives.

There is nothing called abrogation in the Koran. The Koran did not say these verses have been abrogated. The person you are taking your views is a Sunni. Verse 9-5 and 9-29 are 2 verses out of 6,666 verses. And I explained the verses from that chapter, like verse 9-4 and verse 9-13 that explians that these wars were inflicted on Muhammad. Sunni Islam emerged 2 to 3 centuries after Muhammad and relies on the prophetic tradition to interpret the Koran. The Koran need no explanation, it explains and clarifies itself:

25.32. Those who reject Faith say: “Why is not the Qur’an revealed to him all at once? Thus , that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually.

3.7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.


25.33. And no question do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

17.89. And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse except with ingratitude!

39.27. We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition

16.89. One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims

There is nothing called abrogation in the Koran. The Koran came to confirm the previous scriptures and attacked the Talmudic Judaism and the Christian prietshood for abandoning the teachings of the Torah and Gospel. One by the so called oral traditions(like the Muslims did) called the Talmud which they say "explains" the Torah but really abrogates it, the other by the mysterious "holy ghost" that puts words on Jesus's mouth and takes things out of context.

Jesus attacked the Talmud in Mark 7 1-19

Real Islam is the Koran and it explains itself.
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Old 26 Sep 07, 22:39
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Originally Posted by piero1971 View Post
but revert the argument. is there a single Archeological source (archeology beeing the "real" foundation of history) about the existence of Mohammed, or the existance of any of the towns that he was supposed to have lived in at the times (mecca, medina) ?
Piero,

Please explain how the varied pagan tribes of the Arabs were able to unite under a single religious dogma in the space of roughly 15 years?

Tim
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Old 27 Sep 07, 00:51
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True Believing

BigMo,

First) Understand that RealWorld/3D reality of recent few weeks finds me in the middle of a job/career change and geographic relocation, hence I've become a bit distracted from completing this thread which I have another fistful or two of posts to complete. I've barely started the "Jihad" portion and still have the "GWOT" part to go. I hope to get back on track within the next week or two.

Second) Thank you for providing an insight into the mind and thinking of a "True Believer". I was born and raised a Catholic and have since become an agnostic~atheist by most definitions. Note this is not so much a rejection of a Creator or "Designer Intelligence" as much as a rejection of the various religions of/for Humankind that have dominated History of the past 10-15 thousand years. This is due in large part to my lifelong study of History. However, along the way I can appreciate the perspectives of "TrueBelievers" of any stripe/flavor. While gaining an appreciation of the variations of Christianity, I've also gained an appreciation of the variations of other religious beliefs~ideologies/philosopies, especially that of the Nazis of Germany, c.1920's-1945, which most closely mirror Islam as expressed by the "Jihadists".

Third) I would hope you've read this whole thread and the links provided as such will give a foundation of where I'm coming from here. I could care less whether Islam is Objectively True~Real, what matters is that there is an interpretation of Islam~Koran/Qur'an used by the Islamo-Fascists~Jihadists as the foundation of their 'belief system' that provides insight into 'where they are coming from' and 'why they act as they do' which can be used to both understand them(the Jihadists/Islamo-Fascists) and also provide insight in how to counter Them effectively.

Fourth) While some on this board like 'piero, etc.' may think Islam is a "fake" or false religion, or others like Salmoon Rushdie may think it is the work of 'Satan', I'll mimick such "Extra-Terrestrial" origions in suspecting that Islam, like many Religions, is of a non-Earthly origin designed to keep Humanity divided amoungst itself so that we remain un-united against an opressive foe that wishes for us to remain upon this planet ~ not become united in extra-terrestrial/solar expansion. Admittedly an unothodox view, but Muhammad didn't channel a message of universal live and tolerance given he carried a sword, lead armies, conquered lands and forced conversion by paiun of death to his religion, unlike the leaders of most of the World's major religions. This is Historically recorded fact not disprovable despite what you or other "peaceful Muslims" might claim.

Fifth) Muhammad did not "channel" a totally peaceful message, despite what ever source (ArchAngel Gabriel(?)) he may claim. Unlike J.Z.Knight/Ramthah and similar "New Agers" of 'Peace and Love', Muhammad carried a sword, lead Armies, conquered Cities/Lands during his ministry and as such set a precedent/example not seen by those who preceeded Him in the establishment of a Religion. Hence Islam stands alone by it's violent origins and initial spread as a Religion more founded upon Violence than Peace.

Sixth) Despite whatever you or other apologists for Islam might say/claim, Islam isn't "cleaning it's own House!" WE in 'the West' remain the targets of the hijackers/abussers of Islam/Koran~'Queer-an' and those who must counter/fight this violence. When "YOU" and other Muslims like you "clean you Own House" of the apostates and defilers who mis-represent Islam, than will you gain credibility and respect from US - the 'Infidels' and non-Islamic believers who are defending ourselves from the aggression of those who use the Koran/Qur'an to justify their violence and aggression towards us not of the "dar-al-Islam"!
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Old 27 Sep 07, 05:53
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Second) Thank you for providing an insight into the mind and thinking of a "True Believer". I was born and raised a Catholic and have since become an agnostic~atheist by most definitions.
Lapsed Catholicism, don't fail me now!

The guy gives you a nice objective and non-aggressive opinion, and you refer to the book he's talking earnestly about as the "Queer'an"

Nice.

Bigmo, welcome to the forums; don't worry about the vocal minority of bigots here - that's all they are, a minority. I look forward to reading more of your insight - I may not agree with it, but at the very least I'll have the decency to respect it as a worthy opinion.
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Old 27 Sep 07, 20:45
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
BigMo,

Fifth) Muhammad did not "channel" a totally peaceful message, despite what ever source (ArchAngel Gabriel(?)) he may claim. Unlike J.Z.Knight/Ramthah and similar "New Agers" of 'Peace and Love', Muhammad carried a sword, lead Armies, conquered Cities/Lands during his ministry and as such set a precedent/example not seen by those who preceeded Him in the establishment of a Religion. Hence Islam stands alone by it's violent origins and initial spread as a Religion more founded upon Violence than Peace.
This is false.

For example, Judaism was born out of genocidal wars of conquest. It was far more ruthless and vicious than Islam. Read up on the exploits of Joshua and King David.

Islam is not a pacifistic religion like Christianity, it did acknowledge the need for the occaisional use of force, but it certainly wasn't martial in the same sense as, say, Bushido was for the Japanese.

Tim
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Old 30 Sep 08, 21:42
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Just a 'Bump' for sake of those dialoguing on the Koran/Quaran as I presented some links and info about Islam/Koran earlier in this thread.

Real World has kept me away from here for a while, I'll try to return more, later, especially to finish up some of the posts/links I'd intended for this thread.

Quick one back to armor11's comment; Note that the Jews were set-up to be a special 'chosen group (clan) of people' to occupy a select and small piece of real estate. Whereas Mohammud charged his followers to convert the whole World to Islam or die in the fight forcing such conversion. I think the scale and scope of the violence compared between these two is something significant for consideration.
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Old 09 Oct 08, 23:17
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Bottom Line

For those reading here who may not have had time to 'connect the dots' of material and links presented so far, here's the distilled bottom line;

Muhammad sought to unit his people, the Arabs, by presenting them with a Religion of their own, that could compete with those other religions dominating the region. His initial version of Islam was somewhat like Christianity with a message of 'peace and love'. However, after a few years of persecution, assault, and deaths of some of his followers by fellow Arabs rejecting his message, "Allah" told him it would be alright to fight back in defense. Then later "Allah" decided that Islam should be even more assertative and aggressive, hence Muhammad's final Suras to the Koran were to fight all none believers until the whole World had converted to Islam (or the Judgement Day arrived).

In pursuing this Mandate, Muhammad became both a Religious leader and a Political leader ~ General, and lead armies in conquest and conversion in his final years. This set a pattern continued 'off and on' ever since by various Califs-'supreme leaders' of Islam.

The Koran is organized by word length of the chapters/Suras in it, not chronological order, hence it can seem rather contradictory at first read, especially without aid of the Hadith and Sunna, the other Islam religious texts.

In "The Global War on Terror", the term "Terror" and "Terrorist" is used as part of a 'political correctness' to dodge use of Islamic Fundamentalists/Islamic Jihadists - so as not to confuse the world and other Muslims in to thinking it's a war against all of Islam.

The Islamic Jihadists have two basic motivations;
1) Allah has told them to wage Holy War - Jihad against all infidels until they are dead or converted to Islam. (This is how Jihadists a.k.a.Islamic Fundamentalists literally read the Koran.)
2) With Islamic Heaven a multi-layered/levels structure, the only way to achieve the better position(s) in AllahLand-Paradise is to be a Holy Warrior (mujhandi) engaged in Holy War - Jihad.

While suicide is normally a "sin" in Islam and not sanctioned by Allah, if a Holy Warrior dies while engaged in Jihad, his reward is even greater. What we in the West would call a suicide attack, an Islamic Jihadist sees as martyrdom to Islam.

As with any fanatic engaging in violence to acheive a goal, Islamic Jihadists can not be negotiated with in the normal understanding of diplomacy. Jihadists will 'negotiate', but only as a tactic to use against the gullible who think the Jihadist will bind by what is negotiated. Afterall, to a Jihadist, we non-believers/Infidels, technically aren't even Human, and since we aren't fellow Muslims, deception/lying to us is not a sin by their religious beliefs.

Options for the West in the GWOT are;

1) Convert to Islam

2) Accept that Jihadists will continue to attack as long as they exist and and there are non-Muslims (or heretic Muslims) to attack (such as has been going on for nearly 1400 years already).

3) Eliminate Jihadists and Jihad idealology.

For an example of how this confirms; see the following earlier message in a "Letter to the American People" from Osama bin Laden;
http://www.sftt.org/dwa/2002/12/4/5.html

BTW, any who fully grasps what I've tried to present here will realize that the capture/death of OBL and the elimination of al Qaeda will not result in the end of Islamic Jihad or attacks against we Infidels. The movement is much broader than just Al Qaeda and the Taliban. It's also a rather assymetrical type of warfare we're confronted with.
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Old 07 Sep 09, 17:56
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As we approach another anniversary of Sept. 11,2001 attack, I thought it fitting to 'bump' this thread and material for those who may not have seen it, in order to better understand how and why such an event happened and what we are dealing with, still!

My post prior to this one remains my preferred summary.

So how's Iraq fit into all of this? "Dave's Dozen Reasons ....";
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=54392
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Old 07 Sep 09, 18:34
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Options for the West in the GWOT are;

1) Convert to Islam

2) Accept that Jihadists will continue to attack as long as they exist and and there are non-Muslims (or heretic Muslims) to attack (such as has been going on for nearly 1400 years already).

3) Eliminate Jihadists and Jihad idealology.
It will be a mix of 1 and 3, with 1 more the result of immigration than of conversion.
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