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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > War in Iraq

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War in Iraq Operations Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom and ongoing operations in the region.

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  #61  
Old 17 Aug 07, 21:18
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1) Germany had declared war on the USA (@Dec. 9th) saving FDR the difficulty of 'creating' a linkage between Japan's attacks on Pearl Harbor, the Phillipines, and many other places in East Asia/Western Pacific with the earlier attacks by German U-boats on US Naval forces in the Atlantic prior to Dec. 7,1941 (see U.S.S. Reuben James, etc.)

2) FDR was 'itching' more to join the war against Germany, allying with Great Britan, than to go to war with Japan.

3) The late December 1941 conference where Churchill and his staff came to WashingtonDC during Christmas season to discuss war strategy with FDR and the US military staff decided that Germany possed a greater threat and challenge than Japan, therefore more effort would be directed towards defeating Germany (first) while containing Japan for later defeat.

4) Germany occupied most of Europe and Americans and Brits identified with liberating those countries first and more so than with the occupied lands of Asians.

5) A couple weeks after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Russia barely stalled the German offensive outside of Moscow. Despite the following 'Winter Offensive' of the Russians, they still looked iffy with regard to whether they'd fall to German advances or not. If Moscow fell, and Germany controlled lands from France to the Urals, the resources available to Germany plus the freed-up troops would make liberation of Western Europe near impossible (if not increase chances of Germany eventually defeating England and possibily crossing the Atlantic to threaten America).

6) As 1942 rolled on, Germany appeared to be recovering from 'General Winter' gobbling up more of Russia, gaining ground in North Africa (threatening the Middle East), and still had dominace in the battle of the Atlantic. Japan had slowed in it's gains and was showing less longterm strategic threat than Germany.

Hence, attacking Germany to draw it's resources and pressure off of Russia plus offer America a chance to aquire much needed combat experience seemed the logical priority. North Africa offered a location where the Allies could be stronger and the Axis weaker, the chance to bring part of Vichy France back to the Allied cause, potential to threaten Rommels backside, and as Churchill oft claimed, the springboard to the "soft underbelly" of Nazi controled Europe.

I think that Allied strategic thinkers accurately gauged that while Japan might be able to secure an Empire in East Asia-Western Pacific, that would be the extent of their near term capabilities. Germany in early to mid 1942 still showed far greater potential to "win" in Russia and continue dominating Europe, the Med. and Eurasia with resources available that could match if not exceed those of the Allies. Therefore Germany was the greater threat to freedom and the member of the Axis in most urgent need of being blunted and thwarted near term, defeated as a FIRST priority compared to distant second runner Japan.

Just IMO of course.

Last edited by G David Bock; 17 Aug 07 at 21:34.. Reason: typos
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  #62  
Old 17 Aug 07, 21:30
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galland/Darren;

"Well done young man, ..." Having just become a grandfather back in July and being well past fifty years old, I'll eagerly accept that ego stroke.

" ... im sure this will provoke quite a bit of discussion, ..." I concurr and such seems to be the case.

As for the rest of your post, you captured part of the essense of the situation, especially as it looked to the USA from Sept 12,2001 thru March 2003.
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Old 17 Aug 07, 22:27
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Quote:
...a state of war had already existed for 12 years with Iraq...
Some months ago, French television channel France 3 shot a documentary about Colin Powell (for the "A visage découvert" which aim to portray important personailties like Romano Prodi or Hosni Moubarak).

When Christian Malard, the journalist, aksed Powell why, in 1991, US did not went after SH his answer was : 'We could not, we had no mandat to do this'. If the UN mandat (and UN was at war with Irak, not USA alone) did not covered an Irak invasion in 1991, the same mandat cannot be used for a war in 2003.
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Old 17 Aug 07, 23:02
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2nd Admendment on Iraq

You forget our Second Admendment to the US Constitution which declares our inalienable right to self defense. Our definition of "self defense" and "nation security" and "national interests" are ours as we see appropriate and we reserve the inalienable right of all soverign nations to act accordingly. Many in our nation have taken an oath, direct or implied, to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America(which defines our nation as much as our borders, holdings, and flag) " ... against all enemies, foreign and domestic."!

What I've noticed after participating on a few message boards of the past several years, some from before - then thru ~ and after "9-11", is the percentage of "enemies ... domestic." Combined with the international "globalization" provided by the internet, the combat arena of ideas, the "psy-op of cyberspace" has also been inundated with "... enemies foreign ..." as well as " ... domestic." There are many "Theatres of Operation" in the "GWOT", and cyperspace via boards such as this is one of them.

WE (USA) don't need no stinkin' UN when we've been attacked, repeatedly, by rouge NGOs of the Dar-al-Islam! Especially when the members of those Islamo-Fascist-Jihadist NGOs come from numerous nations of the UN who do not abide fully by it's charter and human rights provisions and go un-punished for their non-compliant membership. Also included with those Dar-al-Islam nation members of the UN, in poor standing, who provide and do not hinder participation of their nation's citizens in such "Terrorist" NGOs, we of the autonomous and self-defending state of the USA include those nation members of the Dar-al-Islam(and/or United Nations (UN)) who also provide material and spiritual support to the Islamo-Fascist-Jihadist-Terrorist NGOs that have attacked us and also plot to do such.

Increasingly the original, pre-"Betsy Ross" Flag of America flies;

"Don't Trend On Me!"

As I have and will point out, the USA had more than ample reason to remove Saddam Hussein and restructure the nation of Iraq in conjunction with a Grand Strategic aim of eliminating IslamicJIhadist NGOs.

"We have not yet begun to Fight!"
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Old 18 Aug 07, 00:03
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Wink Fudging on the Rules of Containment - The Basics

With acknowledgement and trhanks to "Kurt Steiner" for the inspiration of that meme/title.

I openned off with a first of dozen Reason that included a link to a Congressional report that it appears few read, otherwise they might not of tried to regurgitate their old opinions, stances, plattitides, and 'programed responses' from the playbook of the "Move-On.Org"s! As a reminder, here's that link/URL again;
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/wmd.html

And before I begin, I'll offer another link on the author of that Congressional Report, from February 1998, that details the extent of Iraqi WMD proliferation of WMDs and 'Delivery Systems' as a means of;
1) Preserving rather than destroying Iraqi stockpiles and operational systems
2) Preserving rather than destroying Iraqi delivery systems for WMDs.
3) Preserving rather than destroying ongoing and planned Reasearch and Development (R&D) Programs for WMDs and improved Delivery Systems.
4) Expressing 'Solidarity' of Saddam Hussien's Iraq with the Agenda of Islamic Jihad as developing and expressed within the Dar-al-Islam.

Yossef Bodansky;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yossef_Bodansky

From the Congressional Report of Feb. 1998;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

TASK FORCE ON TERRORISM &
UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515
THE IRAQI WMD CHALLENGE -- Myths and Reality
February 10, 1998
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Despite Baghdad's protestations, Iraq does have a small but very lethal operational arsenal of WMD and platforms capable of delivering them throughout the Middle East and even beyond. Although Iraq has been subjected to an unprecedented regimen of UN inspection and destruction of strategic military programs since the end of the Gulf War in the Spring of 1991, the international community has proven incapable of learning the entire scope of the Iraqi programs for fielding weapons of mass destruction, let alone eliminate these programs as mandated by the Security Council.
...
[ In the nearly three years of Action remaining to the Clintonista White House, They'd fail to do anything meaningful to thwart the extrapolation of what will be implied and laid-out here.]

Most important was the realization that there is an on going Iraqi program the UN inspections team is highly unlikely to discover and stop. In January 1996, the assessment of the Israeli Military Intelligence was that within the next four years, Iraq would have ten SCUD launchers and some 150 SCUD-type missiles. Some of these missiles are to be equipped with warheads containing WMD. A major aspect of the Iraqi program as of the mid-1990s was the organization of a highly mobile transportation system for the operational elements. Thus, by late 1997, the Iraqis were capable of transferring a few thousand liters of biological materials to new concealed sites within two or three weeks without supervision. As far as Baghdad was concerned, once the materials were hidden, supervision may be permitted to resume as usual. Another indication of an anticipated expansion of Iraq's ballistic missile activities came in late 1997/early 1998 with the appointment of two senior officers -- Abd-al-Rizzaq Shihab of the Army and Muzahm Tassab al-Hassan of the Air Force -- as deputy heads of the Military Industries authority. Both generals held senior command positions of Iraqi missile forces during the Gulf War and are considered Iraq's leading experts in ballistic missile operations. Moreover, during 1997, Iraqi military units conducted several simulated deployments and launching of ballistic missiles of the type and range Iraq is not permitted to have.

Meanwhile, despite the ongoing presence of UN inspectors and the threat of resumed bombing, the Iraqi strategic arsenal continued to expand as the current British Government's threat assessment testifies. In early 1998, Iraq is known to possess 48 SCUD-type missiles and six launchers. (Gen. Wafiq Samarraj, the former chief of Iraqi Military Intelligence, knew of at least 45 SCUD-type missiles with range of over 600 km and several others being repaired at the time of his defection in 1994.) A large portion of the 45 BW warheads/bomb containers Iraq acknowledged constructing in the late 1980s are believed to have survived the Gulf War and still elude the UN inspectors. The British Government estimates that the Iraqis still have 30 warheads capable of carrying chemical and\or biological weapons' material. For these warheads and other weapons, Iraq has at least 8,400 liters of Anthrax, as well as 600 tons of chemicals that are sufficient for the production of 200 tons of VX nerve gas -- where a single droplet can kill. (Samarraj reported that in 1994 Iraq concealed 200 containers with biological weapons, more than half of which are still considered in operational condition.)

[This is quite a capability, especially seven (7!) years after the Cease-Fire~Conditional Armistice. If Saddam was serious about complying, these launchers, missles, and 'warheads' could have been gone within 12 months, not lingering as the foundation of increased capability existing 12 years later!]

Thus, Iraq still has a small, diverse, but very deadly operational arsenal of WMD. If used operationally, the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction can cause heavy casualties among both civilian population and military forces not just in the Middle East, but even in the US. The key warhead and bomb components are very small and can be easily moved from one place of concealment to another. Furthermore, if the bulky protective measures of these components are removed, at a risk to the Iraqi troops and nearby population, the movement and concealment of these key warhead and bomb components becomes even more easy. Moreover, it is then virtually impossible to distinguish from afar between these warheads and comparable high-explosive systems -- say, artillery shells.

[Even for Iraqi bureauracracy which lost a few 'old' stockpiles of old sarin gas artillery shells.]

Significantly, however, even if the US and its allies will have managed to destroy the bulk of Saddam WMD operational arsenal, this will provide only a short term solution. No bombing campaign against Iraq, and even an occupation of that country for that matter, is capable of destroying the hard core of Saddam Hussein's primary WMD development and production programs. The reason is that under current conditions these programs are run outside of Iraq -- mainly in Sudan and Libya, as well as Algeria (storage of some hot nuclear stuff). Thus, once the bombing campaign is over, the Iraqis can be expected to smuggle new weapons from Iraq's development sites and production lines - sites that remain untouched by allied bombing as well as unchecked by UN inspection teams. And, for as long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, this charade called disarming Saddam will continue.

One should not be surprised by this sad state of affairs.

The transfer of Iraqi WMD overseas started even before the outbreak of the Gulf War. Back in late 1990, when Baghdad realized Iraq would be subjected to intense bombing, key sensitive elements were smuggled out. Then, in the Spring of 1991, once the extent of the post-War inspection regime became clarified, especially given the type and amount of data provided to the West by numerous defectors, a second round of hasty smuggling took place. Essentially, the core of the next-generation projects of the Iraqi WMD programs was moved to safe-havens. A lot of know-how and key subsystems were shipped out with the idea of building alternate production facilities in the host countries.

Most important are the programs transferred to Libya and Sudan -- two of Iraq's closest allies during the Gulf War that have strong aspirations for WMD of their own. Libya, long struggling to overcome embargoes and the cancellation of arrangements for the supply of technology and systems from Western Europe, has been looking for the Iraqi embargo-busting knowledge and for Iraqi proven solutions for Libyan problems. Sudan needs WMD in order to hit the Black rebels in the south and deter Western intervention against the Islamist terrorism empire. Hence, Iraq found eager and willing partners for its efforts to circumvent the world's campaign against its WMD.

While the initial movements of WMD stuff were emergency measures or by- products of other considerations, Baghdad reexamined its posture by late 1993. By then, Saddam Hussein had already realized that the UN inspections were not going away, and that the US remained determined to continue the policy of containment and sanctions. Moreover, the US retaliation for the June 1993 narrowly averted an attempt on the life of former President Bush by Iraqi intelligence convinced Baghdad that there would be no reconciliation with the US in the foreseeable future. Hence, Baghdad adopted a long term strategy to endure the global pressure. In March 1994, Babil (a newspaper run by Saddam Hussein's eldest son Uday) declared that it would be "desirable for the leaders of Iraq, Libya and Sudan to hold a summit meeting ... and adopt a common stance" to meet the challenges facing the Arab World.

[" ... Hence, Baghdad adopted a long term strategy to endure the global pressure. ..." Captures the essense of what the USA faced from early 1998 until @ March of 2003.

Many here would acert that Saddam's sense of self-preservation would have constrained 'himself' overcoming his desire for agrandizment and Revenge against the USA, that "He" would over-ride such with those humanist/socialist values of self-preservation. What the neo-libs~socialist/Stalinists on this board fail to understand and appreciate is that Saddam Hussein was more concerned with how he'd be seen within Arabic~Islamic culture than that of the 'West'. That "He'd" exacted Revenge upon the USA and the USA couldn't "prove it", would garner 'coupe points within the Islamic~Arabic World elevating the status of Saddam Hussein.]
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Old 18 Aug 07, 01:04
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Quote:
You forget our Second Admendment to the US Constitution which declares our inalienable right to self defense.
Second admendment has no value outside US territory and does not apply to non US citizens. If you were right then islamists would be right to attack US citizens for lack of compliance to sharia.

Quote:
WE (USA) don't need no stinkin' UN when we've been attacked
#1 If you call after UN as in 1991 and 2003 you have to respect the UN ruling. UN is not a 'only-if-I-like-it' option. Calling to it has advantage (GWI) and disavantage (GWII). Futhermore you cant, in same time, use UN (cease-fire) and disregard it (UN SC vote agaisnt intervention).

#2 AFAIK, Bush administration never linked Iraq with any attack on US territory or against US citizens. Lybia and Iran have and S.A is a well known money supplier for terrorsit organizations. If you play the attack card you then also have to explain why Iraq with no links and not S.A with most of 9/11terrorist being Saudi.

Quote:
As I have and will point out, the USA had more than ample reason to remove Saddam Hussein and restructure the nation of Iraq in conjunction with a Grand Strategic aim of eliminating IslamicJIhadist NGOs.
USA had ample reasons to wipe out USSR, yet WWIII agaisnt WP never materialized(i.e others methods than war exists and proven efficient). Moreover Irak was the most secular Arab state. In regard of islamism, removing SH would have been removing Pinochet to fight communism.

Quote:
And before I begin, I'll offer another link on the author of that Congressional Report, from February 1998, that details the extent of Iraqi WMD proliferation of WMDs and 'Delivery Systems' as a means of;
If memory serve, Bush himself recognized that SH did not had WMD.
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Old 18 Aug 07, 01:23
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Cool Fudging on the Rules of Containment - Sudan

Continuing on from; http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/wmd.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Iraqi-Sudanese strategic cooperation dates back to the close alliance between the two countries during the Gulf War. The Iraqi-Sudanese alliance has endured the close relations between Khartoum and Tehran. Originally, Iraq established a major expeditionary force in Sudan in order to strike Egypt and western Saudi Arabia. In late August 1990, the Iraqi deployment included several South African made G-5 155mm guns equipped with both high-explosive and chemical shells, as well as 14 SCUD-B launchers with several missiles each that were originally deployed along the Red Sea coast across from Yanbu and Jeddah. In early January 1991, the Iraqis delivered additional SCUD launchers to Sudan and handed them over to the government. The Sudanese armed forces deployed these launchers in northern Sudan. These SCUDs targeted southern Egypt, including the Aswan High Dam. (By 1995, Sudan would ask Russia for spares and expert technicians to fix its own SCUD missiles and other sub-systems. The serial numbers and other technical data provided by Khartoum proves that the Sudanese SCUD systems had been sold originally to Iraq.)

[Interesting and under-reported effort by Saddam to expand context of "Gulf War I" beyond the Theatre of 'Kuwait-Saudi Arabia-Iraq' with potential to further option the Israeli Involvement~Coalition Discord option.]

The Spring-Summer of 1995 saw the emergence of an Iraqi-Iranian-Sudanese Axis. This Axis was the outcome of secret contacts between Iraq and Sudan, culminating in the visit to Khartoum by the Iraqi Social Affairs Minister Latif Nusayyif Jasim. In order to implement this Axis agreement, about 20 intelligence officers were added to the Iraqi Embassy in Khartoum (second only to the 26 operatives assigned to the Iraqi embassy in Amman, Jordan). Many of these intelligence officers are involved in sanctions busting via Sudan and Africa. Baghdad and Khartoum also reached an agreement to implement a comprehensive plan for strategic cooperation in the Horn of Africa and the Middle East. The agreement included provisions for the dispatch of Iraqi Air Force officers and other military experts specialized in missiles, artillery, and ground battles in order to assist Sudan in meeting the ramifications of the mounting crisis with Egypt. Baghdad committed itself to supporting the Sudanese regime in what the Iraqis term "a cover for foreign interference in Sudan."

[Saddam's Reach seems to have had vision beyond the immediate Mesopotamian Region.]

The first joint Iraqi-Sudanese WMD project was facilities initially readied for the handling and service of CW munitions and ultimately the production of basic CW agents. The CW facility was built during 1995 in an area near Wau, in the Bahr-el-Ghazal Province in south-western Sudan, some 300 kilometers from the Uganda border. The key CW facility is located in a big fruit production factory taken over by the military. Although the Wau facility is controlled by the Sudanese military, Iraqi technicians work there to supervise safety and security procedures. Iraqi officers are also in charge of the gas storage site.
...
Meanwhile, Iraq and Sudan built the chemical weapons factory at a secret location near Wau. Production began in the Fall of 1995. At first, an Iraqi team manufactured the Mustard gas. Gradually, they handed over production to the Sudanese military. However, Iraqi technicians remained responsible for final phases of the manufacture of the gas and its safe storage. The Wau factory gave Khartoum the capability of using "home-grown" mustard gas against the rebels, thus not implicating its allies in chemical warfare. Toward the end of 1995, the Iraqi technicians were able to develop a crude but reliable delivery system for the Mustard Gas produced at Wau. Hence, the Iraqis could stop using their old bombs which were now implicating Baghdad. Instead, the Sudanese introduced crude canisters which they rolled off the back of An- 24/An-26 transport aircraft. Most of these canisters missed their targets because of poor coordination between Sudanese ground forces and the aircraft.
...
... Since late 1995, there have been several reports alleging the use of chemical weapons in southern Sudan, and with varying degrees of independent corroboration and specificity of technical details. In 1997, several reports of use of Mustard Gas canisters during bombing raids in eastern Sudan, mainly in the Tulushi/Tulus mountains area, were corroborated independently.

[Iraq uses Sudan as a 'dumping ground' for proscribed chemical WMDs (mustard gas, etc.) while helping to develop production faciities within Sudan for same. Then helps develop indiginous delivery systems to for Sudan to apply (home-grown) chemical WMDs against the "Black" Africans of southern Sudan who wish to retain their traditional beliefs of Christian~Animalist~Pagan nature rather than forced conversion to Islam.]

." ...The Iraqi propaganda machine stated that "Khartoum is being subjected to a US-Zionist scheme that seeks to achieve long-range objectives. Most prominent among these objectives is to ignite a civil war to divide this country, as a prelude to completely destroying Egypt and suffocating it by taking control of the Nile River water." Significantly, Baghdad concluded that "Sudan's national security is a vital part of pan-Arab security. What Sudan is undergoing is a dangerous episode in a series played by the enemies of the Arab Nation and the Muslims. These enemies are trying to destroy any hope for pan-Arab renaissance, scientific advancement, and unity. They are setting the appropriate conditions to establish Zionist-US hegemony over the Arab world."

["USA retards no-where near Baghdad." says 'Baghdad Bob' as USArmy Abrahms tanks and Bradley combat vehicles with USA troops roll past him in the background. ... ]

" ... Malik expressed Iraq's support for Sudan "against the aggression it is facing" and promised military and other help. Most important was the conclusion reached by Iraqi military experts that only a ruthless total war has a chance of defeating the Black rebels in southern Sudan. Now, Malik assured Bashir that Iraq was ready to support and facilitate the required escalation given certain specific conditions -- Iraq would build in Sudan sophisticated factories for chemical and biological weapons from systems presently hidden in Iraq and Sudan, as well as components acquired in the West and share some of the products with the Sudanese Armed Forces.

Consequently, in early May 1997, Iraq began to secretly transfer to Sudan equipment and materials for the production of weapons of mass destruction. Saddam Hussein authorized the dispatch to Sudan of various components he had so far kept hidden in Iraq as a strategic reserve. Further more, Iraqi experts arrived in Sudan to begin preparing the storage and production of biological weapons that Saddam originally planned to use against the Kurds. At the same time, Iraqi teams conducted simulation training on firing long-range SCUD missiles even though Iraq is authorized to manufacture and own only short-range un-guided missiles.

[The "aggression" Sudan is experiencing is resistance of Black Africans of southern Sudan to forced conversion to Islam from their traditional Pagan~Animalist~Christian religious beliefs.]

The Kafuri facility is comprised of five separate departments -- laboratories and test-run/prototype production sites for both chemical weapons (including nerve agents) and biological weapons, as well as storage sites for both bulk chemicals and loaded weapons (both chemical and biological). Initial test runs of some of the production processes of chemical weapons, most likely nerve agents, already has taken place. Among the chemical weapons tested in Kafuri are 122mm and 152mm artillery shells as well as rocket and tactical missile warheads. In building this factory, the Sudanese relied on technical assistance from Iraq and Iran. Additional expertise was provided by experts and technicians from Egypt, Croatia, Bulgaria, and Russia who were recruited by Iraqi intelligence on behalf of the Sudanese. The key experts are residing in a luxurious dormitory inside the compound.
...
The Yarmook production lines for chemical agents are a derivative of comparable facilities built in Iraq. The key production facilities are comprised of German-made machines acquired by Iraqi intelligence and smuggled via Bulgaria. Additional equipment, mainly computers, were purchased by the Iraqis in France
...
[Should be increasingly obvious how the busine$$ interests of many European countries with re-arming Iraq had them oppossed to supporting USA plans to despose of the Dictator ~ Money Tree.]

" .... The Sudanese military has recently begun training pilots and artillery officers in the maintaining and use of chemical weapons in a special school set up in the Wadi Seidna military compound (north of Omdurman). Another unique center for the development of chemical weapons for use by Islamist terrorists, mainly those affiliated with Usamah bin-Ladin, is being built near the Islamic Center in Soba (soth west of Khartoum). According to Sudanese opposition sources, Khartoum's plans call for the Kafuri and Mayu installations to go into full production sometimes in 1999. The Iraqi and Iranian experts anticipate the Kafuri installations to be largely operational in the first half of 1999, and the Mayu production and weaponization facilities to be operational in the second half of that year."

[" ... Another unique center for the development of chemical weapons for use by Islamist terrorists, mainly those affiliated with Usamah bin-Ladin, is being built near the Islamic Center in Soba (soth west of Khartoum). ... "

What?!

I thought per the "Kurt Steiners", "copenhagens", etc. here, Saddam had no interst in or affiliation with Islamo-Fascists NGOs or their leaders, such as 'Usama bib-Ladin' versus 'Oshama bin-Laden'???!! (Note" Usama versus Osama (etc.)' in Arabic 'phonetics' compares with English/American Jeff versus Geoff.

Such tangents aside, reports were that OBL~AQ buys the land and pays to build/upgrade the facilities, and staff them with Iraq providing the technical expertise component. Despite claims of Ignoramisouses, it seems that Saddam had more than immediate survival parameters of involvement with Islamic-Terrorists who suppossedly objected to his "secular regime". "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."]
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Old 18 Aug 07, 02:23
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Cool Fudging on the Rules of Containment - Libya

Although ultimately decisive, the Iraqi involvement in the Libyan WMD program has been complex and at times contradictory. Back during the 1980s, the Libyans ran a massive development and production program of their own. For a while, the Libyans closely cooperated with both the Iranians and the Syrians -- both enemies of Iraq. At the same time, however, Libya relied on the same West European suppliers as Iraq did. Moreover, key middlemen, such as Ihsan Barbouti, served both the Iraqi and the Libyan WMD programs. During the mid- 1980s, the Libyans were out-spending the Iraqis, and recruiters of Libyan intelligence were offering huge payments in effort to entice key Egyptian, Iraqi and European scientists working in Iraq to transfer to Libya. Baghdad was apprehensive about the Libyan practices

[Never-the-less, as we shall see, Iraq and Libya found 'common cause' in their shared hatred the West over their religioius~secular differences.]

" ... However, with pressure from UN inspections mounting, and with intelligence leaking from defectors, Iraq had no alternative but to transfer more and more sensitive projects to Libya as the sole venue for their continuation. Although Sudan was glad to receive anything Iraq had to offer, it had such an abysmal scientific- technological infrastructure that it could not sustain the more sophisticated Iraqi programs. Thus, with not too many takers of the Iraqi systems, Libya would have to do. Meanwhile, Qadhafi was most interested in receiving extensive help from Iraqi scientists for his own covert, biological, weapons program and conditioned his support for Saddam on cooperation in this field. Thus, since the early 1990s, Iraqi scientists have been working in Libya in order to continue the key Iraqi research and production programs into advanced and next generation CW and BW.

... However, as the contacts were expanding and the Libyans were being exposed to a wider variety of Iraqi programs, Tripoli decided to formalize and expand the cooperation. A special committee of the Libyan defense establishment arrived in Baghdad and negotiated a comprehensive agreement on expanded cooperation in conventional, chemical and biological weaponry. In accordance with these agreements, the Libyans signed contracts with several Iraqi military industry experts. These contracts were drawn as if they were academic invitations for Iraqi professors to lecture in Libyan universities and institutions. At the same time, however, the key Iraqi program equipment, systems and elements remained concealed inside Iraq in anticipation for the end of the UN inspections so that WMD development and production can be resumed."

[Interesting subterfuge.]

" ... However, by the mid 1990s, Baghdad could no longer be selective in its cooperation with Libya. The BND's 1994 studies of the Iraqi procurement system in Europe was unsettling for it threatened Iraq's ability to revive key WMD programs just as the Iraqi system was being restored to its pre-Gulf War magnitude. Moreover, the UN inspection regime was beginning to grasp the complexity of the Iraqi challenge. Indeed, even before the Summer 1995 "defection" of Lt.Gen. Hussein Kamal, the UN was increasing its efforts to locate hidden stuff. As discussed above, Kamal's "defection" was prompted by Baghdad's apprehension that the UN was capitalizing on data provided by genuine defectors in order to zero in on Iraq's hidden WMD facilities. For example, Iraq's biological facilities were first subjected to a meaningful inspection in April 1995, on the eve of the "defection." Even though by then, Baghdad had already hidden its biological weapons cache and destroyed all evidence of its existence, the mere UN visit to the abandoned sites was too close for comfort.

....

[With that it's much too late for me, have to work tomorrow~this weekend so will pick-up about 18 from now ...]
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Old 18 Aug 07, 09:20
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Dave, I think you missed the point of me question. I know why - & concur heartily with most of your reasoning, posted just recent - but the question was aimed at those that always claim Afghanistan should have been the only target because aQ attacked us, not Iraq. When asked why Germany, instead of Japan only, they simply deflect or ignore a similar occurrence in the past wherein we attacked another that was not directly responsible for such a near immediate 'dastardly attack'.

I would say that it was no 'easier' because Germany declared war on us, though... a state of war had already existed for 12 years previous in the case of Iraq - no such declaration needed by any party in those interim years between active hostilities.

Good thread, mate!

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Old 18 Aug 07, 12:56
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Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
With acknowledgement and trhanks to "Kurt Steiner" for the inspiration of that meme/title.

I openned off with a first of dozen Reason that included a link to a Congressional report that it appears few read, otherwise they might not of tried to regurgitate their old opinions, stances, plattitides, and 'programed responses' from the playbook of the "Move-On.Org"s! As a reminder, here's that link/URL again;
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/wmd.html




Significantly, however, even if the US and its allies will have managed to destroy the bulk of Saddam WMD operational arsenal, this will provide only a short term solution. No bombing campaign against Iraq, and even an occupation of that country for that matter, is capable of destroying the hard core of Saddam Hussein's primary WMD development and production programs. The reason is that under current conditions these programs are run outside of Iraq -- mainly in Sudan and Libya, as well as Algeria (storage of some hot nuclear stuff). Thus, once the bombing campaign is over, the Iraqis can be expected to smuggle new weapons from Iraq's development sites and production lines - sites that remain untouched by allied bombing as well as unchecked by UN inspection teams. And, for as long as Saddam Hussein remains in power, this charade called disarming Saddam will continue.

One should not be surprised by this sad state of affairs.

This seems only to reinforce my feelings that the invasion of Iraq did not neutralize WMD's. I would rather Saddam be in control of his WMD's than someone else scooping them up after he was out of power. The idea seems to be that because Saddam had WMD's he would use them. The threat of American retaliation is enough to make any tyrant quiver in his boots. We have to live with the reality that bad dudes are going to get WMD's, but we can't get spooked. Whoever it is, whether it be Saddam or Kim Il-Sung, neither wants to have their fingerprints on a WMD strike on the West. The response to WMD's being used on the West, whether one of these regimes was directly or indirectly responsible, would be catastrophic for that regime.
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Old 18 Aug 07, 13:43
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Originally Posted by Kurt Steiner View Post
This seems only to reinforce my feelings that the invasion of Iraq did not neutralize WMD's. I would rather Saddam be in control of his WMD's than someone else scooping them up after he was out of power. The idea seems to be that because Saddam had WMD's he would use them. The threat of American retaliation is enough to make any tyrant quiver in his boots. We have to live with the reality that bad dudes are going to get WMD's, but we can't get spooked. Whoever it is, whether it be Saddam or Kim Il-Sung, neither wants to have their fingerprints on a WMD strike on the West. The response to WMD's being used on the West, whether one of these regimes was directly or indirectly responsible, would be catastrophic for that regime.
Which is why Saddam's direct attacks on us were "false flag" operations.

The threat to the USA wasn't a direct WMD attack by Saddam...It was the threat that Iraq could become a nexus for al-Qaeda and those WMD.

In 2002, the common perception was that Saddam had robust, secret chemical and biological weapons manufacturing facilities and significant stockpiles of those weapons hidden away. And that he had re-started his nuclear weapons program. Saddam in control of secret weapons that he could use against us via proxies and sans fingerprints is not better than the post-OIF situation.

We were attacked by terrorists using anthrax as a weapon. To this day, we do not know where that anthrax came from. Biological weapons expert Richard Spertzel testified that the weaponized anthrax that was used in some of the attacks could only have come from labs in the USA, Russia or Iraq. The anthrax used in the attack on Senator Daschle’s office was actually of higher quality than any known to have been produced by US, Soviet or Iraqi programs…But a couple of factors point at Iraq as the source:
Quote:
Iraq, unlike the Soviet and US programs, did not mill its dried product; rather the Iraqi BW team learned the method of obtaining a readily aerosolizable small particle product in a one step spray drying procedure...

Iraq claimed it did not dry anthrax spores for its weapons. Yet we know that its BW personnel knew how to produce high quality dried preparations and had the equipment and material to produce such dried preparations. Because Iraq asserted it had destroyed all such material in 1991 before UNSCOM inspectors had arrived, no samples of such preparations were obtained; if it retained any dried material, it was not in Iraq's interest to disclose the presence of such material. Dried anthrax spores remaining from its pre-1991 program would still be viable and pose a significant threat...LINK
Waiting for the threat to be confirmed - to transition from potential to kinetic - simply was not acceptable after 9/11. Clinton Defense Secretary Bill Cohen used the same rationale for taking out the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant...
Quote:
“Senator Gorton, let me give you a real case involving actionable intelligence, the so-called pharmaceutical plant in Sudan. I want to use that as an example because there we were given information that bin Laden, following the bombings of the embassies in East Africa, was seeking to get his hands on chemical and biological weapons to kill as many people as he could.

We were real concerned about that. I was very concerned about that.

Intelligence started to come in about this particular plant. They had been gathering information on it, and I think I point this out in my written testimony, but, frankly, I apologize for not getting it to you much sooner. I was still working on it as of yesterday, last night.

But to give you an example, this particular facility, according to the intelligence we had at that time, had been constructed under extraordinary security circumstances, even with some surface-to-air missile capability or defense capabilities.

That the plant itself had been constructed under the security measures, that the plant had been funded, in part, by the so-called military industrial corporation, that bin Laden had been living there, that he had in fact money that he had put into this military industrial corporation, that the owner of the plant had traveled to Baghdad to meet with the father of the VX program, and that the CIA had found traces of EMTA nearby the facility itself.

According to all the intelligence, there was no other known use for EMTA at that time other than as a precursor to VX.

Under those circumstances, I said, that's actionable enough for me -- that that plant could in fact be producing not baby aspirin or some other pharmaceutical for the benefit of the people, but it was enough for me to say we should take it out -- and I recommended that.

Now, I was criticized for that, saying, you didn't have enough. And I put myself in the position of coming before you and having someone like you say to me, "Let me get this straight, Mr. Secretary, we've just had a chemical weapons attack upon our cities or our troops and we've lost several hundred or several thousand. And this is the information which you had at your fingertips. You had a plant that was built under the following circumstances, had you manager that went to Baghdad, you had Osama bin Laden who had funded at least the corporation, and you had traces of EMTA and did you what? You did nothing? Is that a responsible activity on the part of the Secretary of Defense?"

And the answer is pretty clear.

So I was satisfied, even though that still is pointed as a mistake, that it was the right thing to do then. I would do it again, based on that kind of intelligence.

So that was an example of actionable intelligence. When it comes to other circumstances, you have to weigh it, each and every case.

You say, do you take action just for the sake of taking it, saying do something? I think we have a greater responsibility. Before I decide or make a recommendation to the president of the United States to launch a missile that's going to kill a lot of people, I want to make sure as much as I can it's not out of passion, but out of as much reasoned analysis as I can make to say, "This is a target that poses a threat to us, Mr. President. And yes, there are risks that you're going to kill some innocent people, but we have an obligation to take it out."

It's individual analysis. I can't give you specifics on it. I gave you an example of where I thought it was the right thing.” LINK
From the days when Jan Sobieski saved Vienna and Western Civilization from Islamofascism through the end of the Cold War, it was possible to isolate and marginalize the Islamofascists. Since 9/11 it is abundantly obvious that the paradigm has changed.

In the 21st century we have a "globalized" society. Through ease of travel and instant communications, the world has become very small. For 500 years Islam could remain mired in the 11th century while the rest of the world advanced. The combination of our globalized society and the very real possibility that Islamofascist terrorists could obtain and use weapons of mass destruction means that we can no longer cohabitate this planet.

Islam has to be forced to join the civilized world of the 21st century or it has to be exterminated. There is no middle ground - There's no gray area.

In March 2003 – Saddam had to go. It should have been done five years earlier – but 9/11 and the anthrax attacks were a clarion call to action. Now it’s time to remove the thugocracies in Damascus and Tehran and to force the Pakistanis and Saudis to change their ways.
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Old 18 Aug 07, 14:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Which is why Saddam's direct attacks on us were "false flag" operations.

The threat to the USA wasn't a direct WMD attack by Saddam...It was the threat that Iraq could become a nexus for al-Qaeda and those WMD.

In 2002, the common perception was that Saddam had robust, secret chemical and biological weapons manufacturing facilities and significant stockpiles of those weapons hidden away. And that he had re-started his nuclear weapons program. Saddam in control of secret weapons that he could use against us via proxies and sans fingerprints is not better than the post-OIF situation.

We were attacked by terrorists using anthrax as a weapon. To this day, we do not know where that anthrax came from. Biological weapons expert Richard Spertzel testified that the weaponized anthrax that was used in some of the attacks could only have come from labs in the USA, Russia or Iraq. The anthrax used in the attack on Senator Daschle’s office was actually of higher quality than any known to have been produced by US, Soviet or Iraqi programs…But a couple of factors point at Iraq as the source:


Waiting for the threat to be confirmed - to transition from potential to kinetic - simply was not acceptable after 9/11. Clinton Defense Secretary Bill Cohen used the same rationale for taking out the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant...


From the days when Jan Sobieski saved Vienna and Western Civilization from Islamofascism through the end of the Cold War, it was possible to isolate and marginalize the Islamofascists. Since 9/11 it is abundantly obvious that the paradigm has changed.

In the 21st century we have a "globalized" society. Through ease of travel and instant communications, the world has become very small. For 500 years Islam could remain mired in the 11th century while the rest of the world advanced. The combination of our globalized society and the very real possibility that Islamofascist terrorists could obtain and use weapons of mass destruction means that we can no longer cohabitate this planet.

Islam has to be forced to join the civilized world of the 21st century or it has to be exterminated. There is no middle ground - There's no gray area.

In March 2003 – Saddam had to go. It should have been done five years earlier – but 9/11 and the anthrax attacks were a clarion call to action. Now it’s time to remove the thugocracies in Damascus and Tehran and to force the Pakistanis and Saudis to change their ways.

Look, I have no problem smacking down rogue regimes who are behaving in a less than desirable manner. However, I think there is a lot we can do to improve our approach. First of all get rid of this right we reserve to pre-emptive nuclear strikes. This just doesn't make sense at all. It only scares rogue regimes and makes them want to pursue their own program in order to counter-balance our threat to strike them with a nuke if we feel like it. After all, the American will think twice before hitting us with a nuke if we have one ourselves. Second of all beef up our intelligence agency's. I noticed that in the Presidents last State of the Union address every victory against terrorism mentioned had to do with the work of the intelligence community. Let intelligence do their job; let them find the secret stashes of WMD's. The intelligence community has also proven apt at breaking up terrorist organization by freezing funds and tracking and eliminating targets to name some points. An example of such an operation is as follows:

From the book: The Reagan Imprint by John Arquilla.
Quote:
During the Reagan years the only significant exception to Weinberger's conventional approach to countering terrorism was the skillful manner in which the Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) was ripped apart. A decade before al Qaeda became known as the premier terrorist network in the world, Abu Nidal was in Command of his own network. With about six hundred hard-core members capable of carrying out violent acts, the ANO operated on many continents, and its cells and nodes were fully habituated to independent actions. Li al Qaeda, the ANO was well-heeled financially as it worked for hir for at least three nations during its heyday in the 1980's: Syria, Iraq, and Libya. In the course of spectacular attacks-for-hire, like its 1986assault on a synagogue in Istanbul, the ANO massed a net worth that Bruce Hoffman has estimated at about $400 million at its peak. This organization needed to be taken down, but, being a network rather than a nation, it could not be defeated by carpet bombing or a conventional military invasion.

So different means were employed, including an operation whose details remain largely classified. What can be said, though, is that a deception was used to make Abu Nidal believe that many of his operatives--who in classic network fashion enjoyed considerable autonomy in the field-- were stealing huge sums from the organization. The exact fashion in which the deception was employed remains secret, but it involved "turning" a network member whose job gave him an awareness of the ANO's funding flows. The information gleaned from him was used to make money appear in many network members' accounts in amounts that simply should not have been there... The ANO never recovered from this marvelous covert operation.
The use of blunt force hasn't served us well. We have an evermore hostile world to deal with, a military tied up in to conflict zones unable to threaten invading a third (Iran), and success in Iraq and Afghanistan uncertain at best. We need a new method for waging this war.

While you will probably never convince me that unilateral military invasions are ever a good idea, I'm not afraid of new ideas. So keep the discussion going. Always new ideas out there to learn about and chew on a bit.
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Old 18 Aug 07, 19:56
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Can someone point me to an official document stating TWA 800 was a terrorist act, and that it is linked to Iraq?
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Old 18 Aug 07, 22:25
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Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
I would like to know about Iraq's ties to the Oklahoma City bombing.
Yeah me too. Sorry Dave but a lot of these 'reasons' seem dubious to me. But at least I know that there are a bakers dozen of people left in the world who still think it was a good idea. Good luck with it.
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Old 18 Aug 07, 23:06
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Second admendment has no value outside US territory
Yep, true. But try and take those rights away, or hinder what we see as our proper exercise of them, and see what kind of a fight you have on your hands.

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UN is not a 'only-if-I-like-it' option.
Unless you are talking about Israel.

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USA had ample reasons to wipe out USSR, yet WWIII agaisnt WP never materialized(i.e others methods than war exists and proven efficient).
Yes, because we are a moral and compassionate people. We used those other methods and prevailed, with the help of our true allies. I don't see much support from them these days. Only the propagation of islamic propaganda and dhimmitude.
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