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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > War in Iraq

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War in Iraq Operations Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom and ongoing operations in the region.

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  #46  
Old 16 Aug 07, 10:40
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Originally Posted by Combatengineer View Post
The Torch landings.
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  #47  
Old 16 Aug 07, 12:50
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This video seems to have been lost on the discussion. Curious to see how some of you would explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I
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  #48  
Old 16 Aug 07, 13:47
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I commented on it yesterday I believe or whenever it was you posted it. Definitely wouldnt try to explain it except to say a week is a long time in politics but 10 years is an eternity for Cheney to change his mind. Still an unnerving video bearing in mind the context.
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  #49  
Old 16 Aug 07, 15:34
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People and situations change...

We were barely out of the Cold War when Mr. Cheney made those comments. President Bush (41) described the post-Cold War as "a new world order." Over the next ten years, it became increasingly obvious that the "new world order" was vastly different than the Cold War.

Prior to 9/11 I was dead-set against "nation building"...I now realize that "nation building" is the only way to secure the "new world order" from the threats of Islamofascism and terrorism.

The world was different in 1991...It has changed. And I'm certain that Mr. Cheney's views changed after 9/11 too.
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  #50  
Old 16 Aug 07, 15:42
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
We were barely out of the Cold War when Mr. Cheney made those comments. President Bush (41) described the post-Cold War as "a new world order." Over the next ten years, it became increasingly obvious that the "new world order" was vastly different than the Cold War.

Prior to 9/11 I was dead-set against "nation building"...I now realize that "nation building" is the only way to secure the "new world order" from the threats of Islamofascism and terrorism.

The world was different in 1991...It has changed. And I'm certain that Mr. Cheney's views changed after 9/11 too.

Cheny sights a few reasons for not going to Baghdad in GWI: We would be all alone; It would essentially become an American occupation; AND, you would have pieces of Iraq flying off in all different directions.

While I agree that things change, Cheney's comments above were still applicable today.

And another thing: Did Saddam Hussien support and fund Islamofascism and terrorism to such an extent that he threatened taking over the world or causing anything more than a few terrorist attacks here and there? Containment kept him boxed in to a point. Personally, I'd rather that than what we have on our hands now. I mean, for real, the situation we are in the middle of at the moment is hardly perferable to the one we were in in the spring of '02.
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Old 16 Aug 07, 16:32
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The problem with nation building in terms of fighting islamic terrorism as you put it is that nation building involves imposing western centric notions of government on a people for whom it is entirely alien and many are hostile too. Democracy is a secualar form of life that is at odds with their faith and you are not going to change the view of their faith. Those that believe they can are dreaming. My initial notion is that we find an alternative for oil which will allow us to withdraw from the middle east. Many arabs want to do business with us and terrorism and war gets in the way of that but the more we in the west interfere in terms of enforced democracy the more they will close ranks and the fundamentalists will feed off that. The essence of my argument is, an alternative for oil (we'll have to do that anyway), control of our borders ,serious investment in intelligence and a use of covert military action where necessary. Rudyard kipling was a very experienced man when it came to india and the middle east. "East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet."
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  #52  
Old 16 Aug 07, 19:11
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Quote:
The Torch landings.
USA were declared war in December 1941, Torch happen in Nov 42. Yet it dont means that US forces went iddle in the meantime. Atlantic battle was raging and US Navy fully engaged in convoy protection since day one. A setback in N.A would have delayed victory. A defeat in North Atlantic would have mean losing war.

OTOH, it took 12 years between GWI and GWII and without 9/11 the question of an Iraq war may had been far more difficult to deal with for US goverment. This is, IMHO, what CE pointed out.
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  #53  
Old 16 Aug 07, 19:33
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The point was that the US Army was ill-prepared for the Torch landings.
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  #54  
Old 16 Aug 07, 20:21
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Quote:
The point was that the US Army was ill-prepared for the Torch landings.
Well, rather start a thread in WWII section. (US Army was inexperienced but quite well prepared.)

Anyway, CE has a point : why in quite short time, US goverment went at war with Iraq ?

Of course one may point out that Bush, as Republican, would not pursue Clinton policy. But Bush the elder was not Democrat and he did not (and he was right) went after SH in 1991. Since Clinton was elected in late 1992, the preceding administration had already most of cases that were used in 2002/2003 at hands.
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  #55  
Old 16 Aug 07, 21:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
The problem with nation building in terms of fighting islamic terrorism as you put it is that nation building involves imposing western centric notions of government on a people for whom it is entirely alien and many are hostile too. Democracy is a secualar form of life that is at odds with their faith and you are not going to change the view of their faith. Those that believe they can are dreaming. My initial notion is that we find an alternative for oil which will allow us to withdraw from the middle east. Many arabs want to do business with us and terrorism and war gets in the way of that but the more we in the west interfere in terms of enforced democracy the more they will close ranks and the fundamentalists will feed off that. The essence of my argument is, an alternative for oil (we'll have to do that anyway), control of our borders ,serious investment in intelligence and a use of covert military action where necessary. Rudyard kipling was a very experienced man when it came to india and the middle east. "East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet."
I strongly support the ideas of: Diversification of energy resources (liberals let us drill in the artic wasteland and on the gulf coast), increased spending and upgrading of covert American forces are a must. Overt military invasion is risky business—nation building more risky yet.
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  #56  
Old 17 Aug 07, 13:01
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Originally Posted by Metryll View Post
Well, rather start a thread in WWII section. (US Army was inexperienced but quite well prepared.)

Anyway, CE has a point : why in quite short time, US goverment went at war with Iraq ?

Of course one may point out that Bush, as Republican, would not pursue Clinton policy. But Bush the elder was not Democrat and he did not (and he was right) went after SH in 1991. Since Clinton was elected in late 1992, the preceding administration had already most of cases that were used in 2002/2003 at hands.
The analogy is this...

Combat Engineer says that there was no need to invade Iraq in March 2003. We could have waited until our Amred Forces were better prepared.

The same can be said of Operation Torch in 1942. There was no need for the US to invade North Africa in 1942. We could have waited until our Armed Forces were better prepared.

If you think that the US Army was prepared for combat in North Africa in 1942...you should read Rick Atkinson's An Army at Dawn.
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  #57  
Old 17 Aug 07, 14:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
The analogy is this...

Combat Engineer says that there was no need to invade Iraq in March 2003. We could have waited until our Amred Forces were better prepared.

The same can be said of Operation Torch in 1942. There was no need for the US to invade North Africa in 1942. We could have waited until our Armed Forces were better prepared.

If you think that the US Army was prepared for combat in North Africa in 1942...you should read Rick Atkinson's An Army at Dawn.
The Analogy doesn't work here. The torch invasions were a part of an ongoing larger war. The only thing that was going to decide the conflict was open battle.

With Iraq lots of options and levels of conflict were possible.... i.e wait for the redeployment of 4th ID from the ships off Turkey (3-4 weeks at max), greatly increasing your maneuver forces etc.... Once again, nothing was magic about 19 March 2001.
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  #58  
Old 17 Aug 07, 18:06
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Quote:
The same can be said of Operation Torch in 1942. There was no need for the US to invade North Africa in 1942. We could have waited until our Armed Forces were better prepared.
"Despite the problems it exposed, Operation TORCH gave the U.S. Army a hopeful sign for the future: American troops would soon close the experience gap with their British comrades and enable the Allies to field well-coordinated forces of overwhelming power."

http://www.army.mil/cmh/brochures/algeria/algeria.htm

US Army spend most of 1942 in raising formations, training and equipe them. In term of doctrine, equipment and organization, the US Army that landed in N.A was quite similar to the US Army that landed in Normandy 1 year and half later. The main difference was experience. British had the same opinion :

"The conduct of Allied operations in both northern Tunisia in December 1942 and the central mountain ranges in February 1943 forced a total reexamination of Allied organization and plans [...] Because the U.S. II Corps had taken high casualties and lost so much equipment during the February battles, and—in the British view— shown tactical incompetence, the Americans were to play a role auxiliary to the British in the next phase of the campaign. Accordingly, Alexander's staff was primarily British."

http://www.army.mil/cmh/brochures/tunisia/tunisia.htm

About the need of NA invasion, Allied had to fight German somewhere, Russians were still handling the bull by the horns, alone. In term of strategy, no doubt that a landing in June 1942 would have helped Britsih VIII Army during Gazala battle or in following retreat to Egypt.
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  #59  
Old 17 Aug 07, 20:59
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The fact is that when the USA military did go into Iraq they went farther, faster, more efficiently and overcoming greater numbers in a shorter time period than any other military ever has.
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Old 17 Aug 07, 21:25
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Yup!

My question still remains unanswered, btw...

Why attack the Germans when it was Japan that attacked us?

Regardless of how people which to deflect from the question or **** it away in passing, the answer is little different than why we attacked Iraq shortly after aQ attacked us - with one exception... a state of war had already existed for 12 years with Iraq. In terms of our own self interests & actual defense, there was even more reason to attack Iraq than to invade North Africa.

But alas... the deflection will continue, I'm sure.

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