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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > The Middle East > War in Iraq

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War in Iraq Operations Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom and ongoing operations in the region.

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  #31  
Old 13 Aug 07, 10:24
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I'm not sure what your trying to say Doc. I made the point that Saddam was a secualrist who used Islam to garner support in the middle east whenever it suited him (not exactly a true believing jihadist) as he understood his part of the world's sensibilities very well.Your article illustrated that point very well. The article does not make that link between Iraq and the 9/11 plot. It is known he made noises about creating an arabic superstate, that is well documented but if memory serves that was more to do with his personal nationalistic desires of power as opposed to the Islamic Caliphate sought by jihadist like bin laden. As I mentioned before Bin laden openly hated Saddam.Richard Clarke didnt believe in it and he had as much experience of the intelligence war against terrorism in the 90's as anybody.


P.S. "The affinity between white-supremacist ultra-right-wing terrorist groups and Islamofascist terrorist groups is well established and documented.It extends all the way back at least to the 1940s." Maybe they're linked in terms of their anti semitism but as far as direct co-operation,
Im a well read person and I and imagine many of us have not seen that documented very much.

Last edited by copenhagen; 13 Aug 07 at 10:33..
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  #32  
Old 13 Aug 07, 11:16
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great, someone has an answer as to why we invaded a country that was no threat to national security. i never read, or heard ANYTHING to suggest iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks. i know this, just as Pearl Harbor infuriated Americans into getting thier revenge and entering WW2, 9/11 had done the same thing. the people behind the attack lived in a-stan, not iraq. now, are resources are being drained, our allies [UK, Canada] troop strength is depleted, and the bigger problem cannot be addressed the way it must be. an islamofacist takeover of P-stan may be inevitable, and we are bogged down in iraq. maybe we should take a step back and simplify the "why" of Iraq. maybe...oil revenue? contracts to rebuild a country's infrastructure? a lot of MONEY to be made here. maybe its that simple.
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  #33  
Old 13 Aug 07, 11:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
I'm not sure what your trying to say Doc. I made the point that Saddam was a secualrist who used Islam to garner support in the middle east whenever it suited him (not exactly a true believing jihadist) as he understood his part of the world's sensibilities very well.Your article illustrated that point very well. The article does not make that link between Iraq and the 9/11 plot. It is known he made noises about creating an arabic superstate, that is well documented but if memory serves that was more to do with his personal nationalistic desires of power as opposed to the Islamic Caliphate sought by jihadist like bin laden. As I mentioned before Bin laden openly hated Saddam.Richard Clarke didnt believe in it and he had as much experience of the intelligence war against terrorism in the 90's as anybody.
Clarke was a self-promoting - after-the-fact - I-told-you-so genius, when it came to bin Laden. Former FBI director Louis Freeh is among the 1990s counterterrorism officials who says he rarely, if ever, heard from or even met Clarke.

The late James Fox was the FBI's Special Agent In Charge of the investigation of the first WTC attack. He was convinced Saddam Hussein was behind it. Former Clinton terrorism advisor, Dr. Laurie Mylroie, documented this connection in her 2000 book, Study of Revenge. President Clinton's first DCI, James Woolsey, has endorsed Mylroies's work.

You want a direct link? I think it's fairly safe to say that the news media in Iraq prior to OIF were run by Saddam & Sons. This appeared in an Iraqi newspaper in July 2001...
Quote:
Meanwhile America has started to pressure the Taliban movement so that it would hand them Bin Ladin, while he continues to smile and still thinks seriously, with the seriousness of the Bedouin of the desert about the way he will try to bomb the Pentagon after he destroys the White House...

It seems that they will be going away because the revolutionary Bin Ladin is insisting very convincingly that he will strike America on the arm that is already hurting. That the man will not be swayed by the plant leaves of Whitman nor by the ``Adventures of Indiana Jones'' and will curse the memory of Frank Sinatra every time he hears his songs...S8525 S8526
The article was entered into the US Congressional Record in September 2002 by Sen. Fritz Hollings (D-SC) and Hollings said, "It refers to an exercise called 'How Do You Bomb the White House.' They were planning it. In other words, the World Trade Towers. Here, over a year ahead of time in the open press in Iraq, they are writing that this man is planning not only to bomb the White House, but where they are already hurting, the World Trade Towers."

Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen
P.S. "The affinity between white-supremacist ultra-right-wing terrorist groups and Islamofascist terrorist groups is well established and documented.It extends all the way back at least to the 1940s." Maybe they're linked in terms of their anti semitism but as far as direct co-operation,
Im a well read person and I and imagine many of us have not seen that documented very much.
The affinity starts with Nasser and his Nazi roots and extends to our modern prison system...
Quote:
An unholy alliance
Aryan Nation leader reaches out to al Qaeda

By Henry Schuster
CNN

Editor's Note: Henry Schuster, a senior producer in CNN's Investigative Unit, has been covering terrorism for more than a decade. Each week in "Tracking Terror," he reports on the people and organizations driving international and domestic terrorism and efforts to combat those. He is the author of the newly published book, "Hunting Eric Rudolph."

SEBRING, Florida (CNN) -- A couple of hours up the road from where some September 11 hijackers learned to fly, the new head of Aryan Nation is praising them -- and trying to create an unholy alliance between his white supremacist group and al Qaeda.

"You say they're terrorists, I say they're freedom fighters. And I want to instill the same jihadic feeling in our peoples' heart, in the Aryan race, that they have for their father, who they call Allah."

With his long beard and potbelly, August Kreis looks more like a washed up member of ZZ Top than an aspiring revolutionary.

Don't let appearances fool you: his résumé includes stops at some of America's nastiest extremist groups -- Posse Comitatus, the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nation.

"I don't believe that they were the ones that attacked us," Kreis said. "And even if they did, even if you say they did, I don't care!"

Kreis wants to make common cause with al Qaeda because, he says, they share the same enemies: Jews and the American government...LINK
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  #34  
Old 13 Aug 07, 12:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
Clarke was a self-promoting - after-the-fact - I-told-you-so genius, when it came to bin Laden. Former FBI director Louis Freeh is among the 1990s counterterrorism officials who says he rarely, if ever, heard from or even met Clarke.

The late James Fox was the FBI's Special Agent In Charge of the investigation of the first WTC attack. He was convinced Saddam Hussein was behind it. Former Clinton terrorism advisor, Dr. Laurie Mylroie, documented this connection in her 2000 book, Study of Revenge. President Clinton's first DCI, James Woolsey, has endorsed Mylroies's work.

You want a direct link? I think it's fairly safe to say that the news media in Iraq prior to OIF were run by Saddam & Sons. This appeared in an Iraqi newspaper in July 2001...

The article was entered into the US Congressional Record in September 2002 by Sen. Fritz Hollings (D-SC) and Hollings said, "It refers to an exercise called 'How Do You Bomb the White House.' They were planning it. In other words, the World Trade Towers. Here, over a year ahead of time in the open press in Iraq, they are writing that this man is planning not only to bomb the White House, but where they are already hurting, the World Trade Towers."

The affinity starts with Nasser and his Nazi roots and extends to our modern prison system...
Woolsey, doesn't really endorse the book or the theory that Sadam was behind AQ and the attacks of 9-11. In this article he states that it is possible that the 1993 bombers were sponsored by Iraq and that the 9-11 attacks should also look at in this same light (i.e. a possible connection):

Quote:
In the immediate aftermath of Tuesday's attacks, attention has focused on terrorist chieftain Osama bin Laden. And he may well be responsible. But intelligence and law enforcement officials investigating the case would do well to at least consider another possibility: that the attacks--whether perpetrated by bin Laden and his associates or by others--were sponsored, supported, and perhaps even ordered by Saddam Hussein.
Quote:
If we hope to answer that question, the 1993 WTC bombing is a good place to start looking. No one other than the prosecutors, the Clinton Justice Department, and the FBI had access to the materials surrounding that case until they were presented in court, because they were virtually all obtained by a federal grand jury and hence kept not only from the public but from the rest of the government under the extreme secrecy requirements of Rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.


Now a new administration, a new attorney general, and a new FBI director should investigate the materials that Abdul Basit handled while in the United Kingdom in 1988 and 1989, which were taken into custody by Scotland Yard. If those materials have Yousef's fingerprints on them, then the Fox/Mylroie theory is likely wrong. But if they don't, then Yousef was probably a creature of Iraqi intelligence. Which means that Saddam still considered himself at war with the United States in 1993. And, tragically, he may still today.
http://radiobergen.org/terrorism/iraq.htm

The link is the only one I could find his article reprinted at....

Is there any reason that Woolsey's fellow members of the New American Century (VP, former SECDEF etc) and The American Enterprise Institute that were in the executive branch during this time would not have accepted this suggestion and investigated the connection it to the extreme? Do you honestly think that if any of this had panned out that they would not have sounded off from the highest roof tops in DC??? I but as much credence into this theory as I do TWA Flight 800 theory's and of course Rosie's US government was behind 9-11.....
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  #35  
Old 13 Aug 07, 17:12
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The major problem, here is that so much of this saddam link to 9/11 evidence is circumstantial at best, with no direct (it was the japanese that bombed pearl harbour coz people saw them do it) evidence to say it was definitlely right to take him out. I backed the war at the time because our leaders told us this was necessary (wmd) when it wasnt and the real harbingers of death are elsewhere, mainly they were in afghanistan, north pakistan, sudan and still are.As patriots as the vast majority of people are on here and quite rightly, we're often loathed to see fault in our military ventures out of respect for the troops and that is more than understandable but on this I think we got this one wrong.Maybe history will one day prove me wrong and to be honest I hope I am but I dont feel that is the case.
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  #36  
Old 15 Aug 07, 06:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Following on from the "fish or cut bait" posts above where Saddam's Iraq non-compliance voided terms of the Cease Fire/Armistice, the renewal of the conflict begun and placed on hold back in early 1991 meant We'd (USA) finish the job everyone said we didn't back then ~ drive on to Baghdad and kick Saddam's ass out of power. (rook takes pawn, seizes center of board)

In the wake of OIF, the Saudis did a better job of appearing to be on our side and Libya decided to distance itself from Sudan on the 'future targets' list, surrendering all the transferred WMD tech and gear Saddam shipped there as illustrated in that House WMD report of 1998 linked above.

Another reason, linking somewhat to the ones just given, were the implications (wisps to outright smoke clouds hanging about Saddam/Iraq) of Iraqi involvement in some to most "terrorist" attacks on the US in the post Desert Storm Cease-Fire world. Saddam's Iraq involved in numerous attacks, direct to implied, against the USA;

1. 1993 WTC 'fertilizer bomb in a rental truck (fbrt)' attack (direct)

2. 1995 Oklahoma City (OC) bomb, fbrt attack (semi-direct)

3. 1996 TWA-Flight-800 Shoot-Down (implied)

4. 199? Kholrabi Towers (SA) bombing (Implied)

5. 1998 Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania (implied)

6. 1999 USA/USN U.S.S.Cole attack

7. 2001 '9-11' attacks on WTC and WaDC(Pentagon) (Direct)

8. 2001 'anthrax' attack on domestic USA (direct)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15490603/

Most significant here are the evidenced connections of both WTC attacks having tendriles leading back to Saddam and Iraq.

Khalid Sheik Muhammad in the following link confessing to his role as mastermind of "9-11" along with a couple dozen plus other terrorist attacks over the past few years;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17617986/

Interesting linkage in all this is that he is the "uncle" of Ramzi Yousef who was the mastermind of the 1993 WTC 'fertilizer bomb in a rental truck' attack*. That relationship was established via passports held by both men issued from Kuwait which were alterred during the time Kuwait was occupied by Iraq 1990-91. Both men are Baluchistan and implication is they were agents of Iraq's Mukabbarat ('CIA' equivalent) placed in Al-Qaeda with some 'grease' via "Oil for Food" money$. [Iraq recruitted heavily amoung Sunni Baluchs during the Iran-Iraq war for dissidents to the Tehran regime.]

Details of this came out in the evidence submitted in the trials in NYC of the lower level plotters, followers of the 'blind sheik', convicted on domestic criminal charges rather than international terrorism ones. This is all detailed by Laurie Mylroie in her book "Revenge";
http://www.amazon.com/Study-Revenge-.../dp/0844741272

and her various articles;
http://www.benadorassociates.com/mylroie.php
http://www.slate.com/id/116232/
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110003213

*similar MO in the Oklahoma City Federal Office bldg bombing, believe it was Nichols who happened to be in the same part of the Phillipines at the same time as Yousef and then returned to the USA knowing how to make the bomb used.
We have been over this so soooo many times in the past. Without going into detail (and repeating myself for the millionth time):

There is no, repeat no credible evidence whatsover that Saddam's regime was behind or even involved in any of those attacks that you mention.

Nor is there any credible evidence that Saddam's regime had an established relationship with AQ.

A I have noted in the past, it is now confirmed that at least one of the meetings between Iraqi and AQ officials was done on the behest of Saddam as a sort of fact finding mission and meant nothing beyond the fact that Saddam wanted to keep his eyes and ears open.

Also noted by the Iraqi official involved was the hostility between Saddam and AQ and the fact that Saddam refused all their requests.

One must remember that Saddam's regime was a sham interested only in its own self preservation.
Saddam promoted a certain image of himself in the region, finding common cause with terrorist groups when it suited his interest.
Even this was largely a sham, for instance, as far as I can remember no payments were ever doled out to the families of suicide bombers. Like I said, a sham designed to incease his own popularity rather than legitimate support/cooperation.

For more, look here starting at P. 105:
http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

it pretty well debunks everything.

In summation, Saddam's links to terrorism were superficial at best and to have called him a serious threat to American security is as incredible as it is dishonest.

Last edited by AvramL; 15 Aug 07 at 07:42..
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Old 15 Aug 07, 06:45
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I
OMG!!!!

It's the VP talking sense 13 years ago in regards to occupying Iraq. Was he simply defending the decision made in GWI?

Before anybody starts spouting that "post 9/11" garbage let me remind you that doesn't change the validity of many of his statements.

Last edited by AvramL; 15 Aug 07 at 07:46..
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Old 15 Aug 07, 07:25
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A very very interesting video Avraml. In some ways its slightly unnerving to hear him say what he said then in the context of today.
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  #39  
Old 15 Aug 07, 11:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
The major problem, here is that so much of this saddam link to 9/11 evidence is circumstantial at best, with no direct (it was the japanese that bombed pearl harbour coz people saw them do it) evidence to say it was definitlely right to take him out. I backed the war at the time because our leaders told us this was necessary (wmd) when it wasnt and the real harbingers of death are elsewhere, mainly they were in afghanistan, north pakistan, sudan and still are.As patriots as the vast majority of people are on here and quite rightly, we're often loathed to see fault in our military ventures out of respect for the troops and that is more than understandable but on this I think we got this one wrong.Maybe history will one day prove me wrong and to be honest I hope I am but I dont feel that is the case.
It's almost all circumstantial...It's the pattern that is compelling.
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Old 15 Aug 07, 13:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RHYNO
great, someone has an answer as to why we invaded a country that was no threat to national security. i never read, or heard ANYTHING to suggest iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks. i know this, just as Pearl Harbor infuriated Americans into getting thier revenge and entering WW2, 9/11 had done the same thing. the people behind the attack lived in a-stan, not iraq. now, are resources are being drained, our allies [UK, Canada] troop strength is depleted, and the bigger problem cannot be addressed the way it must be. an islamofacist takeover of P-stan may be inevitable, and we are bogged down in iraq. maybe we should take a step back and simplify the "why" of Iraq. maybe...oil revenue? contracts to rebuild a country's infrastructure? a lot of MONEY to be made here. maybe its that simple.
I seem to recall CK asking this question, but it is now gone, it seems...

So I will ask it, again...

RHYNO, why did we invade North Africa, Sicily, Europe, & then fight our way into Germany?

Was it not Japan who attacked us in Hawaii?

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Old 15 Aug 07, 14:05
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Originally Posted by Admiral View Post
I seem to recall CK asking this question, but it is now gone, it seems...

So I will ask it, again...

RHYNO, why did we invade North Africa, Sicily, Europe, & then fight our way into Germany?

Was it not Japan who attacked us in Hawaii?

Simple, Germany declared war on us. We went after both, after discussing it with our new allies, we made a decision that Germany was the priority.

AQ declared war on us. Taliban/Afghanistan was the container that held AQ. We attacked them, simple....

Iraq, with the intell we believed was correct was a threat, a much more distant threat. Did we need to go in on March 19th? No.
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Old 15 Aug 07, 14:22
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Actually, CE, a state of war has existed with Iraq since Desert Storm. A ceasefire does not equal an end to a war. Of course, you know this, and most others simply find it an inconvenient fact best ignored.

Did we need to go in?

We had already been overhead for a decade...

And were attacked quite regularly during the ceasefire, at that.

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Old 15 Aug 07, 15:04
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Originally Posted by Admiral View Post
Actually, CE, a state of war has existed with Iraq since Desert Storm. A ceasefire does not equal an end to a war. Of course, you know this, and most others simply find it an inconvenient fact best ignored.

Did we need to go in?

We had already been overhead for a decade...

And were attacked quite regularly during the ceasefire, at that.

Did we need to go in when we did, in the manner that we did???? That's the question. The administration rushed to war, almost as if it wanted to commit forces before something could stop the rush.. I don't know why.
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Old 15 Aug 07, 17:40
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Originally Posted by Combatengineer View Post
Did we need to go in when we did, in the manner that we did???? That's the question. The administration rushed to war, almost as if it wanted to commit forces before something could stop the rush.. I don't know why.
You mean against Germany in 1942?
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Old 16 Aug 07, 09:03
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You mean against Germany in 1942?
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