Warsaw Uprising 63rd Anniversary

[Andrey]

Let's compare the POLISH version with the memoirs of Popel.

Originally Posted by Kovalski

"Excerpts from the book "Nowe Miasto Lubawskie During WWII 1939-45" by Zbigniew Karpus (translated and paraphrased from the Polish by Richard Przewlocki). This section of the book deals with the re-entry of the Soviets into the region in 1944.

On January 14, 1944, there was a large concentration of troops of the Soviet Bialorussian Front massing for an attack in the general direction of Malbork and Elblag. In the initial attack (January 14-18/45) the Bialorussian army broke through the German defences thus setting up the second phase of their attack (January 19 to February 9, 1945). During the fighting there was very little resistance from the Germans and the Red Army entered the region of Nowe Miasto and Lubawa on January 21, 1945.

Popel writes that the headquarters of the 1st GTA was a;ready placed in NOVO-Miasto in January, 18th.

About 100 Russian soldiers who perished during the battle were buried in the local cemetery. There was no serious resistance from the retreating Germans who left Nowe Miasto without unnecessary loss of life and destruction of property which was not the case in nearby Lubawa.

Oh, those noble Germans who left Nowe Miasto without unnecessary loss of life and destruction of property.

According Popel's description the Germans planned to defend Novo-Miasto and it was only due the successful rush and heroism of the vanguard of the Soviet 1st Guards Tank Brigade that Novo-Miasto was captured without a large battle BEFORE the Germans forces that were to defend it occupied their positions in Novo-Miasto.

[I]Here we had a post occupational disaster at the hands of the Red Army who became involved in mindless acts of vandalism both collectively and as individuals. The destruction of property, rape, theft and the "rule of the fist" became the order of the day. This was followed by arrests, deportations and forced labour for the benefit of Russia.

There were many acts of vandalism by the army as well as by individuals where many objects of value were taken and transported to Russia. There was a mass destruction of houses and public buildings among them the first floor of the local courthouse and the PKP (railway) station. These destructive activities were committed not only during the early days of "liberation" but also again when the Red Army was returning from the front.

Many valuable objects were destroyed by the advancing Red Army who were eager to fire indicriminately at buildings etc., and used any pretext to burn down houses or any other building. This is how many Poles lost their houses, which had been lived in by the Germans during their occupation. The Red Army burnt 20% of the houses in Nowe Miasto (56 houses) and 80% in Lubawa.

According Popel's description there were 2 battles inside of Nvo-Miasto.

1. There was a night combat of a Soviet recon group (I think it was about 30-50 men) against the local German garrison.

2. On January, 18th a breaking through from encirclement German unit (2,000 men with tanks) collided on the headquarters of the 1st GTA (Katukov himself was there) right inside on Novo-Miasto. They had a combat against the personnel of the headqurters, later a Soviet tank brigade came to the rescue of the headquarters and took part in the battle inside of Novo-Miasto.

Popel wrote that in the end of the combat everything had been burning inside of Novo-Miasto.

So if to read Popel so those 2 battles were the reason of the mass destruction of houses and public buildings.

Also the headquarters of the 1st GTA (together with famous Katukov) was placed in Novo-Miasto. I doubt it was possible that soldiers could do acts of vandalism in a place where an Army heqadquarters was placed.

[Andrey]

There are also Katukov's memoirs.

His description differs in details from Popol's one but he also describes those 2 combats:

1. Nove-Miasto was captured at nightfrom the 16th to 17th by Baliuk's group.

2. A combat between the German breaking through unit (he wrote about 1000 infantrymen with artillery and 17 tanks) and the headquarters of the 1st GTA in Novo-Miasto, later Boiko's tanks came into the battle.

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Barbaross@

The shortest way is through Siberia, I think. EU-China border - nice alternative.

what you think is completely wrong.
the shortest way for the Chinese, right after they settled the matters with the US, is through the EU itself.

[Barbaross@]

Originally Posted by stalin

what you think is completely wrong.
the shortest way for the Chinese, right after they settled the matters with the US, is through the EU itself.

realy?

Russia’s Chinese population has grown from just over 5,000 in the late 1980s to 3.26 million today.

This makes the Chinese the fourth biggest ethnic group in this country after Russians (104.1 million), Tatars (7.2 million), and Ukrainians (5.1 million)—all indigenous inhabitants of Russia. More than three-fourths of Chinese immigrants have settled down in Siberia and the Far East.

The census results lend chilling reality to Russia’s age-old nightmare of a Chinese takeover of the Asian part of Russia. Eighteen million Russians scattered across the India-size expanse of the Far East and Siberia face 250 million Chinese cramped across a common border in China’s northern provinces. In the past the huge Chinese demographic pressure was contained by a tightly sealed barbed-wire border, but when the Soviet Union collapsed, the 4,300-kilometer Russian-Chinese border was thrown open to bilateral trade. Chinese traders poured in to sell clothes and other necessities to Russians struggling with a deep economic crisis. They took back to China Russian timber, scrap metal, ginseng roots, frogs, and jellyfish. New glittering towns have sprung up in recent years on the Chinese side of the border, thanks to the booming cross-border trade, while Russian border regions have remained stagnant.

[joea]

Stalin and Barbaross@ Andrey was correct this belongs in another thread. Could be interesting but not here.

Question for the Polish posters: on this and other forums I here a LOT more accusations flung against Russians than Germans. Now I understand Germans today are supposed to have acknowledged their sins and Russians not...but someone ignorant of WWII in Europe, especially on this thread, might conclude that most Poles were killed by Soviets...and most cities damaged or destroyed by the Soviets not the Nazis as well. The reality was opposite, so I always understood.

[Kovalski]

Originally Posted by joea

Stalin and Barbaross@ Andrey was correct this belongs in another thread. Could be interesting but not here.

Question for the Polish posters: on this and other forums I here a LOT more accusations flung against Russians than Germans. Now I understand Germans today are supposed to have acknowledged their sins and Russians not...but someone ignorant of WWII in Europe, especially on this thread, might conclude that most Poles were killed by Soviets...and most cities damaged or destroyed by the Soviets not the Nazis as well. The reality was opposite, so I always understood.

The case of Nazi German atrocities is clear for all. There was The Nuremberg Trial for Nazis, where all of what they had done was proved. Only idiots don't believe it.

Unfortunately, there was no trial for the Soviet atrocities in Poland, and the rest of Middle-Eastern Europe.
I assume that I will be heavily criticized for that, but I think the fair trial would end the discussion once for all. Polish would be satisfied, and the Russians would be left alone.
But of course, Russia will never agree for that, because such trial would expose decades of lies which they served to the world and their own nation, and would disturb the Russian self-satisfaction and, what is even more important, would demolish their image of Great Liberators.

So there is no other way. Polish will point out the atrocities, Russians will deny it, so this vicious circle will go on till some huge asteroid crashes and blow us (both Polish and Russians) into the sky.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Barbaross@

Russia’s Chinese population has grown from just over 5,000 in the late 1980s to 3.26 million today...They took back to China Russian timber, scrap metal, ginseng roots, frogs, and jellyfish. New glittering towns have sprung up in recent years on the Chinese side of the border, thanks to the booming cross-border trade, while Russian border regions have remained stagnant.

frogs* for a Chinese towns while Russia somehow manages to remain stagnant ?...
what a tone - and no logic whatsoever !!
smacks of good old CNN brainwash...

and what a pile of rubbish, btw !!
just a silly propoganda bollocks !!!
i'd only like to know - where did you dig up all this ???

-----------

* LOL

[Barbaross@]

Originally Posted by joea

Stalin and Barbaross@ Andrey was correct this belongs in another thread. Could be interesting but not here.

Right Joea. Sorry for spamming thread.

[Andrey]

Originally Posted by stalin

you've just run out of arguments, haven't you ??...

U tebia v zadnitse sverbit pogovorit na invlechennye temy? Neimetsia?

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Andrey

... Neimetsia?

пошёл на хуй, ты - мудак !!

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Barbaross@

... Sorry for spamming thread.

- run out of arguments, haven't you ?...

[Andrey]

Originally Posted by stalin

пошёл на хуй, ты - мудак !!

Melkii pustobrekh kotoromu dali vozmozhmost vyskazat'sia. Treplo. Tebe nado bylo Zhirikom nazvatsia a ne Stalinym.

[Barbaross@]

Originally Posted by stalin

пошёл на хуй

Well, I must agree. Realy short of such arguments. Stalin You won.

[Bartek]

Originally Posted by Andrey

The story was written by Pzcimanovsky on the basis of real events.

"Real events" ??? My Dear God !!! From that "real events" even the childrens laugh.

[stalin]

Originally Posted by Andrey

Melkii pustobrekh kotoromu dali vozmozhmost vyskazat'sia. Treplo...

блядь !!...
ну ты и - редкостное мудило !!...
по-твоему, для чего форумы существуют-то ?... - в первую очередь: для того, чтоб "трепаться" !!!
а если ты такой умный, то хуй-ли ты тут торчишь ??... - иди, пиши статьи в газету !!!