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  #31  
Old 14 Aug 07, 06:01
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MonsterZero, I really suggest you read modern Western scholarship on the period before WWII especially regarding the Munich treaty.
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  #32  
Old 14 Aug 07, 06:28
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Originally Posted by MonsterZero View Post
Not evil Russians but evil Stalinists meaning Uncle Joe and his entourage. We know the Russians, having barely survived the Great Purge, had nothing to say about the direction of the USSR.

As for who created Hitler all you have to say is repeat Soviet propaganda statements from the 1930s. Yes, "Stalin was looking for collective security in Europe". My friend, Stalin was going to invade Europe himself except Hitler beat him to it. Industrialization, the 5-year plans, the rapid build up of Soviet military in the 30s had just one purpose: conquest of Europe and implementation of Lenin's plan which had failed when Lenin's Bolsheviks were stopped at Warsaw. The October Revolution had been a great failure because the USSR remained the only communist county in the world. By being isolated, it was doomed to extinction. Stalin dedicated his life to causing a war in Europe that would facilitate the emergence of new socialist states. He finally succeeded....in 1945 but it was still only partial success because Western Europe remained capitalist.
It looks like MonsterZero knows what Stalin thought about.

There is NO documents that can prove the above russophobic writings.

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France and England acted timidly and were never on their best when facing Hitler but it was the USSR that assisted in the rebirth of Wehrmacht in the 1920s and early 1930s. I'm talking real direct assistance, including proving grounds in Russia and Russian industrial plants borrowed by German companies to work on airplanes and tanks away from the watchful eye of the Allies. Your Soviet high school teacher never mentioned that to you, did he? Go online and research the topic.
I even can see armadas of German tanks and planes built in Soviet territory in Soviet plants

Stop cheat the public!!!

There was no Wehrmacht in the 1920s and early 1930s, there was Reichswehr (as I remember). There was democratic Germany (Weihmar Republic, did you hear about it) in those years. After Hitler came to power the USSR stopped that cooperation.

.."watchful eye of the Allies"...

Where it was when Hitler organized Luftwaffe, Panzer troops, and universal service? Where it was when Hitler began to built submarines, battleships, tanks and planes?

All the Soviet-German cooperation was BEFORE the Nazies came to power and in 1939-41 when the USSR tried to gain time preparing to the large war.

In the same time Western companies and governments continued to put up money in German industry even after Hitler came to power.
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  #33  
Old 14 Aug 07, 06:54
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Originally Posted by wwagstyl View Post
Again translation could be a little off, but Rokossovskii does make some good points. The AK were suspicious of the Red Army, as they should be of an army which had invaded their territory barely 5 years ago. Also, they were suspicious of the Red Army because of their support of the communist government formed by Stalin in Lublin. This was a government formed by Stalin made up of communists who had not played much of a real part in the Poland of 1939. The Poland of 1939 was for the entire war (and indeed up until the fall of communism) represented by the government-in-exile in London. It was this government which should have continued Poland after the war, not the puppet forced by Stalin.
In 1941, after the Germans invaded, the USSR organized Polish armed units in the Soviet territory. They contained from former Polish POWs, mobilized Poles from the USSR and Poland. Those units were under Gen. Anders. The USSR equipped those units and let them to get training.

But Gen. Anders and many other high commanders of those armed units refused to fight in the Soviet-German Front. The USSR let them to go to Africa through Iran. Later those units of Gen. Anders fought in Africa, Italy, France.

But some Poles decided to stay in the USSR and to fight against the Germans there. So a Polish division was organized there. In 1944 that division was ready to action and took part in the liberation of Poland.

Read "Russia At War" by Alexander Werth, he described those events vety well.

After Red Army entered Poland it wa necessary to do something in the liberated territory. The representatives of the government-in-exile and AK units refused to cooperate with the Soviets. But it was necessary to govern in the liberated Polish areas. Also the Polish liberated territories contained many Polish men who could serve in army and to not use them would be a waste of human resources.

So the USSR organized Lublin Polish goverment which cooperated with Red Army and Soviet military administration. It consisted not only from Polish Communists but from people of other parties also who were ready to take part in making order in the liberated territories.

As I remember the government-in-exile was offered to create the combined government with the people from LublinGovernment but they refused.

So Lublin government began to organize life in the liberated territories. Also they organized new Polish army equipped by the Soviet weapon.

So if at first there was only one Polish division fighting inthe Soviet0German Front then it turned into the 1st Polish Army of Woisko Polskoe. During the battle for Berlin Woisko Polskoe had 2 Armies (the 1st and the 2nd) which fought against the Germans. If there was no Lublin government there were no those 2 Polish Armies and the Soviets had to operate as occupants in Poland.

Quote:
There were strains in the relations between the Soviets and the government-in-exile, mainly due to the forceful, but sometime tactless, way the government-in-exile tried to fight it's corner. They were angered at the treatment of the thousands of Poles sent towards Siberia. Also, the murder of Polish officers found at Katyn didn't help. But ultimately, the government-in-exile should have been the one to set up a provisional government in 1945, not some little known, relatively powerless, communist puppets.
The governemt-in-exile consisted of crazy russophobs who had leaded Poland to the catastrophe in 1939 refusing the Soviet military help up to the last month before the German aggression. The Germans ocupied Poland, built there concentration camps and began to realize methodically their plans of physical elimination of the Slav and Jewish population of former Poland. It was the blame of the guys of the government-in-exile who were too crazy russophobs to see the real threat.
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  #34  
Old 14 Aug 07, 06:58
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Originally Posted by wwagstyl View Post
With regards to the secret protocols, a better analogy would be that of three neighbouring families and their houses. Mr. Hitler and Mr. Stalin had big houses, and in between was the small house of Mr. Mościcki. To continue the analogy the secret protocols amount to the two big houses deciding to simply split the little house down the middle and move in to their respective parts without agreement from Mr. Mościcki. How can anyone justify these sort of actions?
Where have you read "to split" Poland? Have you read the text of the protocols?
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  #35  
Old 14 Aug 07, 07:18
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
Where have you read "to split" Poland? Have you read the text of the protocols?
Are you trying to claim it didn't exist? One of the last things Soviet Union did was acknowledge their existence and denounced it. Too bad today's Russia seems to be falling back on this.


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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
The governemt-in-exile consisted of crazy russophobs who had leaded Poland to the catastrophe in 1939 refusing the Soviet military help up to the last month before the German aggression. The Germans ocupied Poland, built there concentration camps and began to realize methodically their plans of physical elimination of the Slav and Jewish population of former Poland. It was the blame of the guys of the government-in-exile who were too crazy russophobs to see the real threat.
Too bad there weren't "crazy Russophobes" leading my country. Had we followed the course the "russophob" Finns followed a few months later maybe we would not have lost up to 200 000 Ests. In stead our government made the mistake of trusting Stalin and paid for it with their lives.

What's more - it wasn't just this one incident where trusting Stalin lead to the premature grave of those making the mistake. It happened in ALL three cases. We actually don't have a historic example of a case where Stalin did not breach this kind of treaty. So I'd say (with the benefit of hindsight and empiric evidence) that the probability of Stalin breaching the treaty with the Poles, if the Poles were stupid enough to trust him, would have been 100%.

Last edited by pp(est); 14 Aug 07 at 07:26..
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  #36  
Old 14 Aug 07, 07:38
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
But Gen. Anders and many other high commanders of those armed units refused to fight in the Soviet-German Front. The USSR let them to go to Africa through Iran. Later those units of Gen. Anders fought in Africa, Italy, France.

But some Poles decided to stay in the USSR and to fight against the Germans there. So a Polish division was organized there. In 1944 that division was ready to action and took part in the liberation of Poland.
1. Stalin want to send them partialy and spread over soviet divisions.
Equiped as You know, was old, and in poor condition. More.., there were equiped only one division from 5, and only with 20 light canons. Send them to fight, should be suiside. Ah Yes, Russians fough with fists only,.. but remember, that Poles, don't want to fight for country, which push a knife into the back in 1939, it was realy dilema. Poles want fight against germans, and prove it on Monte Cassino.
Anecdote, I found in gen. Patton memoires:
When he met gen Anders, Polish 2 Corps commander, Patton asked:
- When Polish troops, will be placed between Soviets and Germans again. Against which enemy, You will be fight?
- First Germans, then Soviets. First duty, then pleasure.
This dialogue, was directly after Katyn revealed.


2. Some Poles not decided to stay in USSR, but simply they didn't arrive, when evacuation to Persia started. Soviet authorities, after sept. 1939, ordered, that people from taken East Poland, are all citizens of the USSR. "So, why we should send them to Polish troops"? Stalin asked.
Later those people were drafted to Polish (People) Army.
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  #37  
Old 14 Aug 07, 08:34
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
But Gen. Anders and many other high commanders of those armed units refused to fight in the Soviet-German Front. The USSR let them to go to Africa through Iran. Later those units of Gen. Anders fought in Africa, Italy, France.
From what I've read the polish forces were not going to be kept concentrated, and this was not what they wanted. Also, from various of my family members who either fought in 2nd Polish Corps or were with them, the Soviets did not equip or look after them well. So that was another contributing factor to deciding to move to the M.E. and fight under Western control.


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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
After Red Army entered Poland it wa necessary to do something in the liberated territory. The representatives of the government-in-exile and AK units refused to cooperate with the Soviets. But it was necessary to govern in the liberated Polish areas. Also the Polish liberated territories contained many Polish men who could serve in army and to not use them would be a waste of human resources.

So the USSR organized Lublin Polish goverment which cooperated with Red Army and Soviet military administration. It consisted not only from Polish Communists but from people of other parties also who were ready to take part in making order in the liberated territories.

As I remember the government-in-exile was offered to create the combined government with the people from LublinGovernment but they refused.

So Lublin government began to organize life in the liberated territories. Also they organized new Polish army equipped by the Soviet weapon.
Fair enough that the government-in-exile may have strained relations with the Soviets leading to them not wanting to cooperate with them. This meant that I guess there was a place for a polish administration (the lublin government) to help organise the "liberated" territories. But the fact of the matter was that one of the main reasons for a lack of cooperation was that Stalin had proved himself to be no friend of Poland, nor indeed of any nation that was in what he decided as "his" sphere of influence. Also, immediately after the war, the Lublin government should have disbanded to allow government-in-exile to come back. There was no way that a combined government could be termed right and proper, as there already existed a perfectly constitutionaly legal government. There was no grounds for anyone to even suggest that the government of Poland had to accept the puppets of the lublin administration. As it was, the lublin government was installed illegally, the country was flooded with Red troops, and there was never any chance of a return to the democracy (such as it technically was) of 1919-1939.

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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
The governemt-in-exile consisted of crazy russophobs who had leaded Poland to the catastrophe in 1939 refusing the Soviet military help up to the last month before the German aggression. The Germans ocupied Poland, built there concentration camps and began to realize methodically their plans of physical elimination of the Slav and Jewish population of former Poland. It was the blame of the guys of the government-in-exile who were too crazy russophobs to see the real threat.
If anything they were Russo- and Germano-phobes. Or more accurately Stalin- and Hitler-phobes, and quite rightly so as neither of these two were exactly friendly in their intentions towards them.

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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
Where have you read "to split" Poland? Have you read the text of the protocols?
Sorry about bringing this in, I got mixed up between this and the thread about the Soviet attack on Poland.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.


Basically this says do what you want to do on your side, and then I'll do whatever I want on mine. Now if neither nation (Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany) had made a move, then this may have not come into play. But as soon as Germany moved on Poland, then Russia decided to move to, to "protect its interests". Oh and the "split" is quite explicit in the text.
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  #38  
Old 15 Aug 07, 02:18
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Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
1. Stalin want to send them partialy and spread over soviet divisions.
Equiped as You know, was old, and in poor condition. More.., there were equiped only one division from 5, and only with 20 light canons. Send them to fight, should be suiside.
I didn't hear they were equipped badly. In any case, it is necessary to remember that it was in 1941 when the USSR had no enough weapon for own units. If they had 20 cannons it is necessary to look on whixch stage of organization they were in that moment. Maybe, they simply didn't get the other cannons in that time but were to get them later when they would be better readu to battle.

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Ah Yes, Russians fough with fists only,.. but remember, that Poles, don't want to fight for country, which push a knife into the back in 1939, it was realy dilema. Poles want fight against germans, and prove it on Monte Cassino.
In 1944-45 the Polish soldiers of Woisko Polskoe fought well against Germans in the Soviet-German Front...

Quote:
Anecdote, I found in gen. Patton memoires:
When he met gen Anders, Polish 2 Corps commander, Patton asked:
- When Polish troops, will be placed between Soviets and Germans again. Against which enemy, You will be fight?
- First Germans, then Soviets. First duty, then pleasure.
This dialogue, was directly after Katyn revealed.
It shows well enough who were those Poles.

Quote:
2. Some Poles not decided to stay in USSR, but simply they didn't arrive, when evacuation to Persia started. Soviet authorities, after sept. 1939, ordered, that people from taken East Poland, are all citizens of the USSR. "So, why we should send them to Polish troops"? Stalin asked.
Later those people were drafted to Polish (People) Army.
I don't mention the people who didn't arrive somewhere. I know that some officers of Gen. Anders' army refused to go to Africa with him. Later they began high level commanders of Woisko Polskoe.
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  #39  
Old 15 Aug 07, 02:34
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Originally Posted by wwagstyl View Post
From what I've read the polish forces were not going to be kept concentrated, and this was not what they wanted. Also, from various of my family members who either fought in 2nd Polish Corps or were with them, the Soviets did not equip or look after them well. So that was another contributing factor to deciding to move to the M.E. and fight under Western control.
It shows only that they thought too much about self-conceit than about fighting against Germans.

Quote:
Fair enough that the government-in-exile may have strained relations with the Soviets leading to them not wanting to cooperate with them. This meant that I guess there was a place for a polish administration (the lublin government) to help organise the "liberated" territories. But the fact of the matter was that one of the main reasons for a lack of cooperation was that Stalin had proved himself to be no friend of Poland, nor indeed of any nation that was in what he decided as "his" sphere of influence.
Don't decide for the others!

Maybe it was better if Red Army didn't liberate Poland but went to Berlin through southern direction - through Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Maybe insuch case Berlin would be taken by Western Allies but the amount of the Poles by May 1945 would be a few millions less than in reality...


Quote:
Also, immediately after the war, the Lublin government should have disbanded to allow government-in-exile to come back. There was no way that a combined government could be termed right and proper, as there already existed a perfectly constitutionaly legal government. There was no grounds for anyone to even suggest that the government of Poland had to accept the puppets of the lublin administration. As it was, the lublin government was installed illegally, the country was flooded with Red troops, and there was never any chance of a return to the democracy (such as it technically was) of 1919-1939.
If to speak about laws so French Vichi government was legitime French government and De Gaulle with his "Free France" movement were onky a horst of traitors and mutineers.

If to use your logic so after the liberation of France De Gaulle should pass the power to Vichi government as De Gaulle was not a democratically elected leader.

While the government-in-exile do all what was possible to make troubles to the USSR - the alone force that was ableto liberate Poland - Lublin government was doing all what was possible to help to Red Army to liberate Poland and to fonish off the Nazies.

Quote:
If anything they were Russo- and Germano-phobes. Or more accurately Stalin- and Hitler-phobes, and quite rightly so as neither of these two were exactly friendly in their intentions towards them.
Oh, Stalin offered them to help to defend from Hitler but they thought he was unfriendly.... Very strange.

When France and Britain offered the same they were considered Allies.

Quote:
Sorry about bringing this in, I got mixed up between this and the thread about the Soviet attack on Poland.

Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish States and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.


Basically this says do what you want to do on your side, and then I'll do whatever I want on mine. Now if neither nation (Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany) had made a move, then this may have not come into play. But as soon as Germany moved on Poland, then Russia decided to move to, to "protect its interests". Oh and the "split" is quite explicit in the text.
There
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=54283

I have explained the meaning of the secret protocols. Don't want to repeat it again.
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  #40  
Old 15 Aug 07, 10:25
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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
I didn't hear they were equipped badly. In any case, it is necessary to remember that it was in 1941 when the USSR had no enough weapon for own units. If they had 20 cannons it is necessary to look on whixch stage of organization they were in that moment. Maybe, they simply didn't get the other cannons in that time but were to get them later when they would be better readu to battle.
Probably.. but now stop talkin that Poles don't want to fight.

Quote:
In 1944-45 the Polish soldiers of Woisko Polskoe fought well against Germans in the Soviet-German Front...
Yes, very hard, at Pommerstellung, Kolberg, Berlin, Budziszyn... and Warsaw when, three polish regiments forced the Wisla river, and land in left shore Warsaw for help Uprising. Without any support and refused landing equipment from soviets HQ, they suffer huge loses and withdraw. More,... polish gen.Berling, commander of the 1 Polish (People) Army, was dimisioned for this act of bravery.

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It shows well enough who were those Poles.
Do you want to fight arm to arm, with the murderer of your colegues or against him? I repeat. That anecdote, shows the feelings after Katyn crime, revealed.
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  #41  
Old 15 Aug 07, 11:23
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Originally Posted by Barbaross@ View Post
Probably.. but now stop talkin that Poles don't want to fight.
They had chance to fight in the main theatre of the operation of WWII where the fate of the war deciding. In that time every division was very important to stop Hitlerites. They were trained soldiers of former Polish Army and got ability to get more training. You should remember that app. in that time Moscow Opolchenie [Militia] Divisions consisting of untrained Moscow students and intelligentsia were organized and sent to defend Moscow having lack of equipment.

But those Poles chose to fight in a secondary direction after many week trip when they could be very useful in the Soviet-German Front when every prepared unit in Moscow direction could decide fate of the war.

Have you read how Werth described it in his "Russia At War"?

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Yes, very hard, at Pommerstellung, Kolberg, Berlin, Budziszyn... and Warsaw when, three polish regiments forced the Wisla river, and land in left shore Warsaw for help Uprising.
So??? It looks like it was possible for Poles to beat Germans arm to arm with Red Army, doesn't it?

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Without any support and refused landing equipment from soviets HQ, they suffer huge loses and withdraw. More,... polish gen.Berling, commander of the 1 Polish (People) Army, was dimisioned for this act of bravery.
???? Where did you find such nonsense?

The Polish units wanted to take part in the liberation of Warsaw and they were let to take part in that landing as it was their town. It was the same as the episode during the liberation of Paris when the 2nd French Armored Division of Gen. Leclerk strove eagerly into Paris.

I read that AK units occupying a few places in the eastern bank of the Vistula suddenly retreat out from the river right before the landing. So it was blame of AK command which didn't want to support the Poles from the 1st Polish Army.

The Soviet units provided all the possible support to the Polish landing units but the Germans concentrated large forces and eliminated the captured bridgehead.

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Do you want to fight arm to arm, with the murderer of your colegues or against him? I repeat. That anecdote, shows the feelings after Katyn crime, revealed.
In that time it was unknown exactly who did Katyn crime. The Germans spoke it was done by the Soviets, the Soviets spoke it was done by the Germans. The Poles preferred to believe to the Germans.

And policy is a strange thing. Yesterday's enemies turned into allies one day later. NATO was organized in 1949 and the Western Germans became allies of France, Britain and the US. It was only 4 years after the end of WWII!!! And I didn't hear the Britishes or Americans had morale troubles by this fact.
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Old 15 Aug 07, 19:27
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It shows only that they thought too much about self-conceit than about fighting against Germans.
Or maybe it shows that they wanted to fight as Poles, and equipped correctly rather than being lumped together with some of those Russian units which went into combat with only one gun for every 2 soldiers?

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Maybe it was better if Red Army didn't liberate Poland but went to Berlin through southern direction - through Hungary and Czechoslovakia. Maybe insuch case Berlin would be taken by Western Allies but the amount of the Poles by May 1945 would be a few millions less than in reality...
Not at all, by all means go through Poland, it was the best route. But then liberate Poland, do not decide, admittedly with the consent of USA and the UK, to more or less put a puppet to govern it. To give Stalin his "buffer zone" instead of deciding to allow the country to govern itself in accordance with it's laws and constitution.

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If to speak about laws so French Vichi government was legitime French government and De Gaulle with his "Free France" movement were onky a horst of traitors and mutineers.

If to use your logic so after the liberation of France De Gaulle should pass the power to Vichi government as De Gaulle was not a democratically elected leader.

While the government-in-exile do all what was possible to make troubles to the USSR - the alone force that was ableto liberate Poland - Lublin government was doing all what was possible to help to Red Army to liberate Poland and to fonish off the Nazies.
I do not know of the legality of De Gaulle's government-in-exile, but if it was unconstitutional then what it should have done is to do what the Lublin administration should have done. At war's end with the country liberated, it could disband and allow the correct procedures to be followed to re-establish the governmental form of the pre-WW2 period. Instead, what happened was that Stalin decided to impose the Lublin government on Poland, which coupled with numerous Red army troops in the country kind of eliminated any chance of democracy to be re-established, or even of self-determination. The Lublin collection of communists never was representative of Poland's interests or it's views. And this is supported by the misgovernment and discontent in that country until the fall of communism, which lead to Poland's recovery from WW2 to be a lot slower than it should have been. I mean the bulk of Germany, the enemy, got a better deal than the Poles who fought from the very beginning to the very end (and that was through the actions of all of the Big 3). On the other hand, by my understanding a lot of the French were quite happy for the German occupying forces and their collaborators to be got rid of by De Gaulle, and he did act towards setting up a state that the French population were happy to be a part of.


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Oh, Stalin offered them to help to defend from Hitler but they thought he was unfriendly.... Very strange.

When France and Britain offered the same they were considered Allies.
Unfriendly? This was the country which had in the past controlled Poland for a century, had under the present governmental form (communism) tried to conquer Poland (1919-1921), and the present leader was a part of that invasion. France and Britain, on the other hand, had no territorial ambitions over Poland and were of a similar political leaning.
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Old 15 Aug 07, 22:06
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Originally Posted by wwagstyl View Post
Or maybe it shows that they wanted to fight as Poles, and equipped correctly rather than being lumped together with some of those Russian units which went into combat with only one gun for every 2 soldiers?
They wanted too much in those conditions and lost their chance to become heroes of Moscow Defence.

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Not at all, by all means go through Poland, it was the best route. But then liberate Poland, do not decide, admittedly with the consent of USA and the UK, to more or less put a puppet to govern it. To give Stalin his "buffer zone" instead of deciding to allow the country to govern itself in accordance with it's laws and constitution.
Puppet or not - it could be decided on the basis of the actions of those Poles. The government-in-exile had too radical position, didn't want to compromise and didn't leave to Stalin chances to give them power as in this case Poland again turned into the anti-Soviet country, hostile towards the USSR. Churchill or Rossevelt would do the same if they were in Stalin's position.

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I do not know of the legality of De Gaulle's government-in-exile, but if it was unconstitutional then what it should have done is to do what the Lublin administration should have done. At war's end with the country liberated, it could disband and allow the correct procedures to be followed to re-establish the governmental form of the pre-WW2 period. Instead, what happened was that Stalin decided to impose the Lublin government on Poland, which coupled with numerous Red army troops in the country kind of eliminated any chance of democracy to be re-established, or even of self-determination.
The political system of Poland changed from Soviet political system. It was much more democratic than in the USSR.

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The Lublin collection of communists never was representative of Poland's interests or it's views.
Don't decide for the whole Poland who was the representative of ots interests! You have no results of Gallup-Poll of the Poles of 1945 about to whom they believed more - to Lublin Government or to government-in-exile.

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And this is supported by the misgovernment and discontent in that country until the fall of communism, which lead to Poland's recovery from WW2 to be a lot slower than it should have been. I mean the bulk of Germany, the enemy, got a better deal than the Poles who fought from the very beginning to the very end (and that was through the actions of all of the Big 3). On the other hand, by my understanding a lot of the French were quite happy for the German occupying forces and their collaborators to be got rid of by De Gaulle, and he did act towards setting up a state that the French population were happy to be a part of.
Bla-bla-bla. I see a set of nice slogans only.

In any case Vichi Government was a democratically elected French government and De Gaulle was officially declared a mutiner by them. But De Gaulle became a hero.

So to be a democratically elected government doesn't mean to make correct things only. Sometimes mutiners like De Gaulle became heroes. Lublin Government did all what was possible to chuck out the Germans from Poland and every day of German occupatuion meant new andnew murdered Poles.

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Unfriendly? This was the country which had in the past controlled Poland for a century, had under the present governmental form (communism) tried to conquer Poland (1919-1921), and the present leader was a part of that invasion. France and Britain, on the other hand, had no territorial ambitions over Poland and were of a similar political leaning.
It was in past. It was necessary to live by present.

Tsarist rule - it was not too bad time for Poland (especially in comparison to the German occupation)

Communistic rule - it didn't prevent Churchill and Roosevelt to be Allies of the USSR.

It looks like you suppose the USSR thought only about the capturing of Poland but Western imperialists (hey, it was the time of British Empire, Frenche, Portugal colonies in Africa and Asia) thought how to make life of the Poles better and not about own interests.
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Old 16 Aug 07, 08:15
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They wanted too much in those conditions and lost their chance to become heroes of Moscow Defence.
They did not want too much, they just wanted to be properly equipped so as to be able to fight properly. What benefit was there too them of dying, poorly equipped, in front of Stalin's Moscow? That they were willing to die fighting in WW2 is surely beyond contestation, even in battles that were not always necessary (Monte Cassino), just that they do it fighting towards the liberation of Poland, not the preservation of Soviet Russia.

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Puppet or not - it could be decided on the basis of the actions of those Poles. The government-in-exile had too radical position, didn't want to compromise and didn't leave to Stalin chances to give them power as in this case Poland again turned into the anti-Soviet country, hostile towards the USSR. Churchill or Rossevelt would do the same if they were in Stalin's position.
Again, why should they have to compromise on the rule of their own country with the leader of an until recently hostile country?

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Don't decide for the whole Poland who was the representative of ots interests! You have no results of Gallup-Poll of the Poles of 1945 about to whom they believed more - to Lublin Government or to government-in-exile.
Having read a bit more into this some suprising (or not) facts come to light. You mentioned that during the war a provisional government had been set up, which comprised of the Lublin communists, and also later members of other parties and affiliations (eg. AK, old democratic parties,etc.) However, within this provisional government all/most key positions were held by Lublin communists, they also had control of the newly formed polish (secret) police, the UB, and were supported by the Red Army, Wojsko Polskie, and NKVD. Incidentally upon the formation of this provisional government in 1944, it's manifesto, which would have been endorsed by Stalin, proclaimed it to be the "only legitimate Polish government" and so formally discarding the legal government of Poland.

Following the end of the war, the control of Poland fell to this provisional government, who set about fortifying their position. The 1946 "3 time yes" (Trzy Razy Tak) referendum comprised of three vague questions, the implications of which were not fully explained, and also could have been supported by anyone with any left political views.

1.Are you in favour of abolishing the Senate of Poland?
2.Are you in favour of adopting an economic system founded on agricultural reform and the nationalisation of basic national industries, including the preservation of the statutory rights of private enterprise?
3.Do you want to adopt the Oder-Neisse line (comprising the Oder River and the Nysa River) as the western border of Poland?

As it was later found out, even with such ambiguity it fell to the communists' control of this referendum to create their own result, the one that they wanted. The communists, having de facto control of the country anyway, were not going to relinquish it, so the made sure the result was resoundingly in their favour.
This was then followed by the 1947 elections, which were truly a joke. Having control to set up the elections as they pleased, the communists first of all removed over half a million voters from the electoral roll over accusations of being Nazi collaborators or members of anti-government parties (so some members of the AK and similar groups supporting the government-in-exile were banned). Then in the month before the election 80,000 members of another opposition party (Polish Peasant Party) and around 100 of them killed by the UB. 98 other parliamentary opposition candidates found themselves removed from the running during this period. Even better, if the communists were still worried about the outcome in a certain region, they just disqualified the entire region due to some technical or legal reason. Then during the actual elections, which thinking about it bear quite some resemblance to the type of elections Hitler favoured, the final vote was never in doubt as in many regions, the votes weren't counted, simply the numbers given to the electoral commisioners (who had been appointed, at least in part, by the UB) by the communists were given as the official results. So, who knows what the actual opinion of Poland was, only that it was unlikely to be that of the communist party.


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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
Bla-bla-bla. I see a set of nice slogans only.

In any case Vichi Government was a democratically elected French government and De Gaulle was officially declared a mutiner by them. But De Gaulle became a hero.

So to be a democratically elected government doesn't mean to make correct things only. Sometimes mutiners like De Gaulle became heroes. Lublin Government did all what was possible to chuck out the Germans from Poland and every day of German occupatuion meant new andnew murdered Poles.
Lublin government helped to get the Germans out of Poland (sort of), and for this they should be commended, but it was their actions beyond the battle for Poland that were wrong. They should have held free elections, in a country with no Red Army or secret police. Theu should have disbanded and allowed the government-in-exile to run the country, instead of those proxies of Stalin.

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Originally Posted by Andrey View Post
It was in past. It was necessary to live by present.

Tsarist rule - it was not too bad time for Poland (especially in comparison to the German occupation)

Communistic rule - it didn't prevent Churchill and Roosevelt to be Allies of the USSR.

It looks like you suppose the USSR thought only about the capturing of Poland but Western imperialists (hey, it was the time of British Empire, Frenche, Portugal colonies in Africa and Asia) thought how to make life of the Poles better and not about own interests.
It is necessary to live in the present, but judgement of people always rests on their past actions, which in Stalin's and Russia's case were not exactly the best towards Poland. If Tsarist Russia wasn't too bad, then why were there uprisings throughout the 19th century? Or is this just a case of ungrateful Poles?
As I thought was fairly obvious, Churchill and Roosevelt were allied to Stalin for one purpose only, to defeat Hitler. However, the complete lack of common ground is shown by total collapse of friendship between the West and Stalin in only a couple of short years after the war. And I doubt that either Churchill or Roosevelt would ever have been in favour of communist rule of their own country. The "Western imperialists" (not quite sure why you mention Portugal, but hey...) did have an interest in Poland, it was probably seen as a buffer towards communist agression, and would have given them more time in case of the much feared "red tide" pouring from Russia. But crucially, the interests of the West were simply that Poland would rule itself (as they knew that it would of it's own accord choose a democratic style of government), and that Poland recovered post-war to provide an additional market for their capitalist goods. Slightly different from the more extensive and invasive interests of Stalin.
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Old 17 Aug 07, 07:44
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In 1941, after the Germans invaded, the USSR organized Polish armed units in the Soviet territory. They contained from former Polish POWs, mobilized Poles from the USSR and Poland. Those units were under Gen. Anders. The USSR equipped those units and let them to get training.

But Gen. Anders and many other high commanders of those armed units refused to fight in the Soviet-German Front.
About Anders' Army :
1.Army was supported by Soviets only in arms ,usually totally used,unmodern or damage,with only a small amount of ammo,too small even for trainings.
Food,uniforms,medicaments supply based on British transports from Iran.
2.Army was formed from former GULAG's prisoners ,who could expected that those people would fight together with the NKWD divisions ?
3.After Anders' marched to Iran.Stalin formed Polish Peoples Army,the first battle of that army took a place at Lenino.My father during his studies spend a few weeks at Minsk.One day Russian students organized the excursion to battlefield of Lenino,unlucky for "Polish-Russian friendship " all Polish students were already after the 3 months long military trainning for younger officers of army reserves.When they saw the place of the battle everyone agreed that it wasn't being battle,but only the massacre.

About Allies against Hitler :

When Wehrmacht was approaching Moscow Polish Home Land Army ( AK ) was a good ally for Stalin,they were blowing brigdes,railways,spying Germany troops coming from or to the East Front.
When Wehrmacht was storming Stalingrad Polish Fleet was good ally for Soviets,Polish destroyers were escorting convoys to Murmansk,Polish trade ships were carrying gasoline,food,medicaments for RKKA.
But when at 1944 AK started the uprising to liberate Warsaw suddenly appeared that there was no alliance between Poland and Russia.
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