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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Summer Campaign 2007

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Summer Campaign 2007 Summer 2007 Tournament.

View Poll Results: Who Would YOU Vote For?
Sobieski 57 57.58%
Agrippa 42 42.42%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old 20 Jul 07, 05:40
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IF Wellington had lost at Waterloo, how radically different would Western Europe be today?

IF Sobieski had lost the Battle of Vienna, how radically different would Western Europe be today?

When it comes to IMPORTANCE Vienna far out weights Waterloo.

HP
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Last edited by Half Pint John; 20 Jul 07 at 05:42..
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  #17  
Old 20 Jul 07, 07:34
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Very few battles in history - if any - can really compare to the Siege at Vienna. When one considers what western Europe would look like & become under the Ottoman Empire, as well the impact & influences an Ottoman Europe would have cast over the rest of the world, in time, one can not reasonably deny that Sobieski was a giant in comparison to Agrippa.

I concur that Rome without Agrippa would still be Rome.

Western Europe & the world without Sobieski would be a vastly different place.

The greater of the 2 is Sobieski by a mile!

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  #18  
Old 20 Jul 07, 08:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint View Post
WOW, a man that is credit with stopping the Ottoman Empire of spreading into Western Europe a light weight.

HP
Sobieski is a light weight ??? So who is middle weight and is (was ) there even one general on our globe who is heavy weight ?
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  #19  
Old 20 Jul 07, 08:32
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We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.

Thus I go with Agrippa.
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  #20  
Old 20 Jul 07, 10:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
Sobieski is a light weight ??? So who is middle weight and is (was ) there even one general on our globe who is heavy weight ?
Shafter of the US Army in the Spanish-American War was a true heavyweight!
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Old 20 Jul 07, 10:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.

Thus I go with Agrippa.
Well Jan III Sobieski, also commanded in other battles:

* Battle of Podhajce (1667)
* Battle of Bracław (1671)
* Battle of Mohylów (1671)
* Battle of Kalnik (1671)
* Battle of Krasnobród (1672)
* Battle of Niemirów (1672)
* Battle of Komarno (1672)
* Battle of Kałusz (1672)
* Battle of Chocim (1673)
* Battle of Bar (1674)
* Battle of Lwów (1675)
* Battle of Trembowla (1675)
* Battle of Wojniłów (1675)
* Battle of Żurawno (1676)
* Battle of Parkany (1683)
* Battle of Jazłowiec (1684)
* Battle of Żwaniec (1684)
* Battle of Iaşi (1686)
* Battle of Suceava (1691)

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  #22  
Old 20 Jul 07, 10:12
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Of course everyone knows about Vienna because of what the victory over the ottoman Turks meant for western civilization, but it is not like Sobieski just appeared in Vienna, said let me try this general thing, won, then disappeared. He had a distinguished military career.
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  #23  
Old 20 Jul 07, 12:12
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28-25 for Sobieski thanks to my vote. LOL!
I've been voting against the fellow since round one, time to give him the deserved credit.
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  #24  
Old 20 Jul 07, 12:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.

Thus I go with Agrippa.

Quote:
beating an easy opponent


One of your better ones R.

and easy opponent doesn't get all the way to Vienna.

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  #25  
Old 20 Jul 07, 13:55
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I wish I had time to closely study all the battles by each man...but in looking at other posts in other threads I went with Agrippa.
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  #26  
Old 20 Jul 07, 18:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian HEAT
I wish I had time to closely study all the battles by each man...but in looking at other posts in other threads I went with Agrippa.
Har!

I've been keepin me powder dry!

'New Glory' (Ralph Peters) makes a compelling case that the seige of Vienna was likely one of, if not the most important battle in human history thus far. IMO the effects & stakes of even the battle of Actium can not begin to compare.

If ya ever get a chance to read the book, or talk to Ralph about it, I recommend it, Brian!

Our own RN Armstrong mentioned it some time ago & I thought it quite good.

An interesting little narrative of the event at Vienna...

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Last edited by Admiral; 20 Jul 07 at 19:39..
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  #27  
Old 20 Jul 07, 18:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surry
We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.
The Ottomans... an easy opponent?

Puhleeeese!

Jan Sobieski was formidable well before Vienna. It was his previous command experience & bravery which cast greatness upon him & made him the lynch pin in command of a vast array that then fought to triumph over a most formidable foe... Yes... the Ottomans @ Vienna.

You can say what you will about how we should or will vote, & why, Surrey... but I, for one, will vote for the greater of the 2... & their impact upon the world, as it is, weighs as greatly upon it as their ability - no more, no less.
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Last edited by Admiral; 20 Jul 07 at 19:34..
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  #28  
Old 20 Jul 07, 19:19
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OK - I have to put my 2 cents in on this one... I voted for Agrippa... but who ever said the Ottomans weren't a formidable opponent and Jan had an easy victory is about as ludacris as saying WWII was (to quote my Britt buddy) "a bit of a tiff!"

Come on!
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  #29  
Old 20 Jul 07, 21:25
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I voted for Jan Sobieski. I was very interested in the battles & opponents he faced.
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  #30  
Old 21 Jul 07, 05:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral View Post

Har!

I've been keepin me powder dry!

'New Glory' (Ralph Peters) makes a compelling case that the seige of Vienna was likely one of, if not the most important battle in human history thus far. IMO the effects & stakes of even the battle of Actium can not begin to compare.

If ya ever get a chance to read the book, or talk to Ralph about it, I recommend it, Brian!

Our own RN Armstrong mentioned it some time ago & I thought it quite good.

An interesting little narrative of the event at Vienna...

Thanks for link. Great text and I like one of the comments below:
Quote:
Interesting. Reminds me somewhat of Lord of the Rings, with Rohan arriving at the right moment to save Gondor.
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- My friend, first I beat 'em then I'll count 'em
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