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| Summer Campaign 2007 Summer 2007 Tournament. |
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View Poll Results: Who Would YOU Vote For?
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Sobieski
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57 |
57.58% |
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Agrippa
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42 |
42.42% |
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20 Jul 07, 05:40
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Real Name: John "The HUMBLE"
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: APO AE 09131 Hqs EuCom
Posts: 32,088
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IF Wellington had lost at Waterloo, how radically different would Western Europe be today?
IF Sobieski had lost the Battle of Vienna, how radically different would Western Europe be today?
When it comes to IMPORTANCE Vienna far out weights Waterloo.
HP
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"
NO one wins a war!!!! They just lose less.
Last edited by Half Pint John; 20 Jul 07 at 05:42..
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20 Jul 07, 07:34
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ACG Forums - Legatus Janitorus
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Real Name: Wes
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Permian Basin
Posts: 18,948
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Very few battles in history - if any - can really compare to the Siege at Vienna. When one considers what western Europe would look like & become under the Ottoman Empire, as well the impact & influences an Ottoman Europe would have cast over the rest of the world, in time, one can not reasonably deny that Sobieski was a giant in comparison to Agrippa.
I concur that Rome without Agrippa would still be Rome.
Western Europe & the world without Sobieski would be a vastly different place.
The greater of the 2 is Sobieski by a mile!
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On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson
ACG History Today
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20 Jul 07, 08:22
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: tychy
Posts: 419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half Pint
WOW, a man that is credit with stopping the Ottoman Empire of spreading into Western Europe a light weight. 
HP |
Sobieski is a light weight ??? So who is middle weight and is (was ) there even one general on our globe who is heavy weight ? |
20 Jul 07, 08:32
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,325
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We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.
Thus I go with Agrippa.
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20 Jul 07, 10:00
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Real Name: Bob Evans
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Salem, OH
Posts: 9,649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartek
Sobieski is a light weight ??? So who is middle weight and is (was ) there even one general on our globe who is heavy weight ?
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Shafter of the US Army in the Spanish-American War was a true heavyweight! 
__________________
The lips of fools bring them strife, and their mouths invite a beating.- Proverbs 18:6 N. I. V.
Avatar- Dad, Korean War Vet. Passed Sept. 1, 2010
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20 Jul 07, 10:04
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: KGNW
Posts: 1,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey
We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.
Thus I go with Agrippa.
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Well Jan III Sobieski, also commanded in other battles:
* Battle of Podhajce (1667)
* Battle of Bracław (1671)
* Battle of Mohylów (1671)
* Battle of Kalnik (1671)
* Battle of Krasnobród (1672)
* Battle of Niemirów (1672)
* Battle of Komarno (1672)
* Battle of Kałusz (1672)
* Battle of Chocim (1673)
* Battle of Bar (1674)
* Battle of Lwów (1675)
* Battle of Trembowla (1675)
* Battle of Wojniłów (1675)
* Battle of Żurawno (1676)
* Battle of Parkany (1683)
* Battle of Jazłowiec (1684)
* Battle of Żwaniec (1684)
* Battle of Iaşi (1686)
* Battle of Suceava (1691)
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20 Jul 07, 10:12
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: FSB Austin
Posts: 12,338
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Of course everyone knows about Vienna because of what the victory over the ottoman Turks meant for western civilization, but it is not like Sobieski just appeared in Vienna, said let me try this general thing, won, then disappeared. He had a distinguished military career.
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20 Jul 07, 12:12
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ACG Forums - General Staff
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Real Name: Luis Manuel Ribeiro Alves dos Reis
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Valadares - V. N. Gaia
Posts: 5,988
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28-25 for Sobieski thanks to my vote. LOL!
I've been voting against the fellow since round one, time to give him the deserved credit.
__________________
All warfare is based on deception.
Sun Tzu - Art of war - Chapter One - Laying Plans
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20 Jul 07, 12:19
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Real Name: John "The HUMBLE"
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: APO AE 09131 Hqs EuCom
Posts: 32,088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey
We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.
Thus I go with Agrippa.
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One of your better ones R. 
and easy opponent doesn't get all the way to Vienna.
HP
__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you"
NO one wins a war!!!! They just lose less.
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20 Jul 07, 13:55
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Real Name: Brian King
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cheyenne Mountain
Posts: 8,412
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I wish I had time to closely study all the battles by each man...but in looking at other posts in other threads I went with Agrippa.
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Our forefathers died to give us freedom, not free stuff.
"the hole in the sky that nightmares fall out of" -- one description of the B2 Stealth Bomber
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20 Jul 07, 18:20
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ACG Forums - Legatus Janitorus
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Real Name: Wes
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Permian Basin
Posts: 18,948
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Siberian HEAT
I wish I had time to closely study all the battles by each man...but in looking at other posts in other threads I went with Agrippa.
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Har!
I've been keepin me powder dry!
' New Glory' ( Ralph Peters) makes a compelling case that the seige of Vienna was likely one of, if not the most important battle in human history thus far. IMO the effects & stakes of even the battle of Actium can not begin to compare.
__________________
On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson
ACG History Today
BoRG
Last edited by Admiral; 20 Jul 07 at 19:39..
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20 Jul 07, 18:26
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ACG Forums - Legatus Janitorus
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Real Name: Wes
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Permian Basin
Posts: 18,948
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Surry
We are looking at the ability of the relevant generals here, not the importance to history of their victories. Thus a competant general beating an easy opponent does not make him great even if the victory saved western civilisation as we know it.
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The Ottomans... an easy opponent?
Puhleeeese!
Jan Sobieski was formidable well before Vienna. It was his previous command experience & bravery which cast greatness upon him & made him the lynch pin in command of a vast array that then fought to triumph over a most formidable foe... Yes... the Ottomans @ Vienna.
You can say what you will about how we should or will vote, & why, Surrey... but I, for one, will vote for the greater of the 2... & their impact upon the world, as it is, weighs as greatly upon it as their ability - no more, no less.
__________________
On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson
ACG History Today
BoRG
Last edited by Admiral; 20 Jul 07 at 19:34..
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20 Jul 07, 19:19
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: COP Peacemaker
Posts: 594
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OK - I have to put my 2 cents in on this one... I voted for Agrippa... but who ever said the Ottomans weren't a formidable opponent and Jan had an easy victory is about as ludacris as saying WWII was (to quote my Britt buddy) "a bit of a tiff!"
Come on!
__________________
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Field Artillery
BDE S3 - Peacemaker 3 - OIF 09
FSO - 1BCT, 3ID - OIF III
"Loved or Hated... Never Ignored... COLT sticks it deep!"
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20 Jul 07, 21:25
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Real Name: Frank
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 99
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I voted for Jan Sobieski. I was very interested in the battles & opponents he faced.
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21 Jul 07, 05:54
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: KGNW
Posts: 1,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral
Har!
I've been keepin me powder dry!
' New Glory' ( Ralph Peters) makes a compelling case that the seige of Vienna was likely one of, if not the most important battle in human history thus far. IMO the effects & stakes of even the battle of Actium can not begin to compare.
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Thanks for link. Great text and I like one of the comments below:
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Interesting. Reminds me somewhat of Lord of the Rings, with Rohan arriving at the right moment to save Gondor.
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